How do Gifts decks work?

[dskippy0]

So there are a lot of decks using Gifts Ungiven now-a-days. I'm wondering how these decks work, in particular, how they use Gifts. It seems natural that you'd be able to grab set of four cards where any two will win you the game. I've been reading lists and found a lot of mention of Will (of course) and occationally Regrowth to accomplish this. I'm also particularly interested in the version that runs High Tide and how it builds up mana advantage with it. Is the a primer on gifts decks. Seems like I can't find one anywhere on TMD.

thanks,
-mike

[Luiggi]

The standard game-winning Gifts is Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, Time Walk and Recoup. Chances are they'll give you Time Walk and Recoup. You can then Recoup your Tinker and cast it, finding Darksteel Colossus, and cast Time Walk. Next turn you swing for 11 and flashback the Recoup targetting your Time Walk, and cast your Time Walk again, giving you another turn to swing for your opponent's remaining life total. That's the most typical set of four cards you Gifts for when you're ready to win, assuming you haven't drawn any of them, though anyone who's played the deck will tell you that what you Gifts for depends on a huge number of things, like what the board looks like, what's in your hand, what's in your graveyard, etc. It's also common to Gifts for mana, if you're setting up your YWill, for card-draw, for counters, etc.

It's also common for people to forsake the Colossus kill and instead go for a kill with Tendrils of Agony. A game-winning Gifts could then be, for example: Yawgmoth's Will, Recoup, Burning Wish and Rebuild. From there you can Recoup and cast your YWill, recast whatever artifact mana you have in your graveyard, Rebuild them to your hand, replay them, Burning Wish for Tendrils of Agony and kill your opponent.

The main goal of the deck, however, is to resolve a game-breaking Yawgmoth's Will. Once you do that how you actually win is generally irrelevant, whether it's beating for two turns with a DSC and a fistful of counters, or killing in one turn with Tendrils of Agony.

Hope this helped.

Luiggi

[sampling_percus]

The Tidal Gifts deck is not complete yet unfortunately, hence no primer.

You can read your fill here though.

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=23829.0

[Hi-Val]

Bad players tend to Gifts for whatever way their deck combos as soon as possible.

Good players tend to Gifts for card draw and make their Mana Drains work hard, and then they get around to Gifting for the win as a matter of course.

I've seen too many Gifts players go for their recoup plan like a kid trying to put Time Walk on an Isochron Scepter. It sits there for three turns doing nothing and when they get the mana to cast it, it gets countered.

It's hard to pin down what to Gifts for generally, but my most Gifted-for cards are Mana Crypt, Brainstorm, Merchant Scroll, FOF, Mana Drain and Gifts. This list does not include Yawgmoth's Will, Recoup, Tinker or Time Walk, for those of you at home.

[Luiggi]

my most Gifted-for cards are Mana Crypt, Brainstorm, Merchant Scroll, FOF, Mana Drain and Gifts. This list does not include Yawgmoth's Will, Recoup, Tinker or Time Walk, for those of you at home.

That's all good and fine, but if you have an opening there's no reason to not go for the jugular, Gifts for those 4 cards and just win. Not seizing opportunities like that also makes one a bad Gifts player, .

Luiggi

[Hi-Val]

If you have the opportunity to sieze that and win, then you either should have won already or are already losing. The first Gifts almost never goes for the win unless you have something ridiculous like Will and Lotus in your hand. If you have the 14 mana needed to Time Walk, Recoup Will, cast Tinker and then cast Time Walk again, you've won or lost. Even if you are able to possibly win if they don't have something to hose you, it's prudent to go for the draw or counters to back up your win. Gifts wins through overwhelming card advantage, not quick combo kills. If that were the case, Scroll would grab Mystical 100% of the time so you could Tinker quickly.

[Luiggi]

While I think you make a good point, there is no definitive one-way to play the deck. Some play it more aggressively and some play it more conservatively, and that's plain fact. It really all depends on what you're up against. I wouldn't hesitate to go for the quick Colossus against certain decks, whereas I obviously wouldn't do that against other ones, where I'd opt for the slower, more methodical card advantage route. You're over-simplifying things by saying that Gifts does not win through quick combo kills, because it can and it does, even if it's not 100% of the time. Additionally, you don't need 14 mana all at once, and you can quite comfortably break it up over two turns if you Recoup your Tinker, cast it and play Time Walk from your hand, following that up with Recoup on your Time Walk next turn. That lets you pay 7 mana one turn and 6 the next turn. This makes it considerably easier than paying 14 mana all at once, . You choose to opt for the other approach, and that's certainly your prerogative. This does not mean, however, that everyone plays it that way.

Luiggi

[NWI Team_Zilla]

Luiggi, I've got your back..
@Hi-Val read this:

The standard game-winning Gifts is Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, Time Walk and Recoup.
Luiggi

Ok, should I type this for you again so that you will figure it out?  The standard game winning Gifts is Will, Walk, Recoup, and Tinker...  Luiggi didn't say anything about the "very first", "as soon as you can possibly Gifts" Gifts, he just said that, typically speaking, people will usually win the game after casting a Gifts Ungiven for those 4 cards.. 

Ok, so do I get the Nobel Peace Prize for teaching kiddies how to read???

[PucktheCat]

Hi-Val:  You are definatly right about the way the deck realistically plays in game.  I would add artifact mana to the list of cards often Gifted for, but other than that Gifting for more Gifts is the order of the day.  I probably cast Yawgmoth's Will from my hand after finding via a Tutor or search at least as much (maybe more) than I Recoup it.

Gifts is a good card when you use it to tutor for a 7 mana Yawg. Will (Yawg. Will is good at almost any cost).  But it is only really snapped in half when you have Yawg. Will in hand (or a way to get it) and can use it to stock your yard and hand for the win.  One Gifts can't do both, but two Gifts can.

That being said, it is fine to teach a newer Gifts player to walk before they run.  And more than once I have Gifted for the "combo" (such as it is) and won with it.  One turn openings from Rebuild or mana bursts from Drain are a common example.

Leo

[Slay]

Okay, someone asked a question and we gave him twelve different answers and an argument. Time to noobify this:

When a Gifts deck gets seven mana and feels confident about its ability to win a counterwar over any threat it casts, it will cast Gifts end of turn for four out of the five cards: Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, Time Walk, Recoup, Burning Wish. It will attempt to Tinker out a Darksteel Colossus and cast two Time Walks, one fueled by a Yawgmoth's Will or a Recoup. It can also attempt to kill by casting a massive Will in an attempt to cast Burning Wish into Tendrils of Agony for 20+.

This is not always the optimal Gifts pile, and until such a gamestate has occurred, the proper move is to Gifts for whatever four cards would benefit you the most. This can mean tutoring up mana, tutors, card draw, or counterspells, or any combination of the above.

A win by casting Gifts for the four broken cards can occur on turn 3 or turn 23.
-Slay

[warble]

One other NOOB note to add:

Gifts is a Standard MANA DRAIN deck.  This means you want to use mana drain as part of ramping up your mana.  The sooner you mana drain a big threat, the sooner you can do the gifts + broken stuff to win.  Your first priority if you can't plop insane mana down and rebuild+burning wish for the win is to get two blue mana up for the drain.

[Hi-Val]

Luiggi, I've got your back..
@Hi-Val read this:

The standard game-winning Gifts is Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, Time Walk and Recoup.
Luiggi

Ok, should I type this for you again so that you will figure it out?  The standard game winning Gifts is Will, Walk, Recoup, and Tinker...  Luiggi didn't say anything about the "very first", "as soon as you can possibly Gifts" Gifts, he just said that, typically speaking, people will usually win the game after casting a Gifts Ungiven for those 4 cards.. 

Ok, so do I get the Nobel Peace Prize for teaching kiddies how to read???

Hey retard, I designed the deck. I've been playing Gifts for five months. I think I know how it works.

The Gifts that wins you the game is the draw spell Gifts. Let me say that again. It's the Gifts setup that wins you the game. Just like resolving Intuition/AK in Hulk won you the game. Past that, it's semantics. You can kill with Grim/Power. The thing that wins you the game is the huge crush in card advantage that you gain. A Gifts will result in having 4-5 more cards in your hand. THAT will win games.

Your first priority as a Gifts player is either to resolve Mana Drain or Ancestral Recall. Both of those beget casting Gifts, because your Ancestral will show you more mana or a Mana Drain to fuel it. Your first Gifts, unless you have an insane draw, will end up being draw spells or mana accelerants. The most busted thing that the deck does is Gifts twice in a turn.

Slay is right in that you only cast that setup when you KNOW you can win the counterwar. Otherwise, you go for a Gifts that will allow you to win future counter wars. "the proper move is to Gifts for whatever four cards would benefit you the most. This can mean tutoring up mana, tutors, card draw, or counterspells, or any combination of the above." is EXACTLY RIGHT.

Puck-- Gifting for Crypt, Sol Ring or Academy are all incredibly strong plays because they make you rely a little less on Drain. I often will grab one of these three if I don't have mad moxes on the table already.

[dskippy0]

So it looks like the general consensus is that Gifts is a utility card to fetch mana, draw, counter that can also eventually grab a kill, typically walk/recoup/tinker/will. Thanks for all the help guys. I do have another few questions.

Why play rebuild over hurkyl's recall? Is it to nix opposing mana for counters or to hose workshop decks as a side effect?

Warble mentioned rebuid+wish for the win. I'm assuming you're wishing for tendrils. Does this win occur much in gifts decks that run burring wish and rebuild or is dsc usually the kill.

Hi-Val, what do you think semantics means?

-mike

[Luiggi]

Your first priority as a Gifts player is either to resolve Mana Drain or Ancestral Recall. Both of those beget casting Gifts, because your Ancestral will show you more mana or a Mana Drain to fuel it. Your first Gifts, unless you have an insane draw, will end up being draw spells or mana accelerants.

My question to you, Doug, is this: if you have a busted draw/mana is not an issue/you think you can win a counterwar/yadda yadda yadda, do you think it's correct to Gifts for Will/Recoup/Tinker/Time Walk? From what you've been saying it sounds like you believe that it's flat-out wrong to ever Gifts for that combination of cards, even if it'll win you the game right there (remember that not all decks pack counterspells, and not all decks will be able to produce an answer to your DSC in the allotted time), and I just want you to clarify what you've been saying.

Luiggi

[Polynomial P]

@dskippy0,

Rebuild is key to meandeck gifts because it serves 3 purposes:

1. Gets rid of opposing artifacts. Chalice for 2 is really good against gifts and a popular play by stax players. Rebuild avoids chalice for 2 and returns all problematic artifacts to their hand.

2. At the same time Rebuild can act as a mana accelerant for you, provided you have more than 3 reusable artifact mana on the table (and use rebuild on your turn).

3. Lastly, as you replay Rebuild you up your storm count by 3 or more. This will help you when you burning wish for Tendrils of agony and win.

Hurkyl's recall can either do #1 OR #2 and #3 and it is hit by chalice for two.

[NWI Team_Zilla]

Hey retard, I designed the deck. I've been playing Gifts for five months. I think I know how it works.

Yea, but apparently you don't know how to read, you went off flaming Luiggi because he put down the most common way for the deck to win using Gifts (or at least the most popular), and I pointed out that you obviously cannot read because you said,"Ohh no, Gifts WINS THE GAME by going to get stuff like land!" .....Yea gifts can go get land, or go get card drawing, or go get counter spells, but ultimately, you don't win the game by going to get land now do you? No, you don't. 
But whatever dude, continue to play the deck that you netdecked and played for 5 months until someone else posts a new deck you can play for a while.

[Hi-Val]

My question to you, Doug, is this: if you have a busted draw/mana is not an issue/you think you can win a counterwar/yadda yadda yadda, do you think it's correct to Gifts for Will/Recoup/Tinker/Time Walk? From what you've been saying it sounds like you believe that it's flat-out wrong to ever Gifts for that combination of cards, even if it'll win you the game right there (remember that not all decks pack counterspells, and not all decks will be able to produce an answer to your DSC in the allotted time), and I just want you to clarify what you've been saying.

Luiggi

Yes, you obviously get those cards. My point is that the first gifts is the one that wins, but the one you described is the coup de grace. I thought everyone knew what the theoretical kill combo was, and people were asking intelligent questions about how to get there.

But whatever dude, continue to play the deck that you netdecked and played for 5 months until someone else posts a new deck you can play for a while.

Look dimwit, see my signature? See how it says "Team Meandeck"? See how the DECK is called "Meandeck Gifts"? Rub your two IQ points together and see that I didn't netdeck it. I was part of the group that designed it.

It's best not to talk out of your ass if you have no clue what you're talking about.

[Luiggi]

I thought everyone knew what the theoretical kill combo was, and people were asking intelligent questions about how to get there.

Since dskippy0's said that he had no experience with the deck and wanted to know how it worked, I figured I'd give him the most basic "I win" setup, especially since he mentioned having heard about 4 card setups where you could win no matter what two cards your opponent gave you. If we were having this discussion in the Open Forum or it had been opened by someone who knew how to play the deck, then talking about the kill combo wouldn't have been necessary, .

Luiggi

[dskippy0]

Since dskippy0's said that he had no experience with the deck and wanted to know how it worked, I figured I'd give him the most basic "I win" setup ...

Yes, and thank you very much for that. I did not no how the kill worked and now I do.

It would be nice if some other people on the forum could avoid flaming the thread and calling people retards and making grand assumptions that

people were asking intelligent questions about how to get there.

In addition to conflating intelligence with a lack of information about a deck "[he] designed." I realize you're some much further above me, but this is the newbie forum and a lack of empathy doesn't make you intelligent.

Thanks again everyone with useful input,
-mike

[Luiggi]

Glad I could help, . Good luck with the deck. It's fun to play, and really powerful.

Luiggi

[Hi-Val]

In addition to conflating intelligence with a lack of information about a deck "[he] designed." I realize you're some much further above me, but this is the newbie forum and a lack of empathy doesn't make you intelligent.

what

Anyway, if you have further questions, I can help. I was trying to put more content in than the single-line "recoup, will, tinker, walk" that would get posted. I've seen a lot of Gifts players go for the win scenario and then lose because they don't have the mana to fire it off. The correct play is to fill in whatever you're missing, be it mana or cards in hand. Then you put yourself in a position where everything is much easier. You've probably also drawn one of the winning gifts cards anyway, so you can make the fourth card in your gifts pile something else that is helpful.

Please note that I didn't direct any foulness towards you. But if you want to take it that way, that's your perrogative. I was trying to help and ran into eye-rolling post of hubris that distracted me.

[Bram]

It would be nice if some other people on the forum could avoid flaming the thread and calling people retards

Quoted for truth. It's refreshing to see a ten-post basic user display more maturity than two certain other contributors to this thread combined.

I did not no how the kill worked and now I do.

...so I guess I can safely close this thread in order to prevent further off-topicness and insults. I wish you good luck playing what is arguably the most powerful deck in the format!