Reprints

[NastyNate]

Realistically speaking, what would have to happen for WOTC to reprint type one staples. Off hand I can think of a few barriers.

First there is the impossibility of releasing powerful vintage defining cards into the other formats. Standard, Block, Limmited, and Extended should not get moxen and ancestral, or even things like oath of druids and land tax, simply because these cards have proven themselves far too powerful to have anything but a distorting effect on limmited card pools.

Then we've got the Reserved List which was created specifically to protect the investments of collectors. The reserved list theoretically preserves the secondary market value of our cards, by ensuring that reprints don't flood the market.

Is it possible for WOTC to print a WB collectors set that would only be legal in the eternal formats. It could include, beyond the obvious power nine, drains, and workshops, cards like swords to plowshares, force of will, red elemental blast, and others.

Does anything else stand in the way of a Chronicles II type of set?

What would we have to do as a community to overcome these barriers?

Do any of you think reprints would be detrimental to the health of vintage magic or to the value of our power cards?

[prosbloom225]

I think reprints would be the death of many power owning players.  The price of original power would instantly plummet and their owners would be very angry.  Magic is a collectible game, thus cards should be considered an investment.  To destroy the whole system in which the game stands on to allow more players to compete in a smaller majority of tournaments would be complete lunacy.

[BlackmindKDC]

  First off I want to address this notion that we somehow need reprints.  We don't!  I'm not saying that you (NastyNate) are saying that we do but there is a sentiment I get from reading posts around the internet that more people want reprints.  All we need is proxies, and so far we have that so we are good to go.  Pete at SCG Chi-town #2 this year told me he is going to continue his tourneys, there will still be Waterburies.  The West Coast seems to be doing alright.  Is our format in such a dire state that WoTC needs to move in such a drastic measure as to reprint power?  No.  I couldn't be happier with how Vintage is growing/ has grown since I began playing it.  This talk is ludicrous.

  If WoTC did somehow reprint power and the others (Mana Drain, Bazaar of Baghdad, Mishra's Workshop) then I believe that as far as the price of those cards go it would depend on the print run.  Too small a print run and power could even possible go up in price from increased tourneys and turnout, medium and I believe the price drops a little or stays the same, too many and the price drops dramatically at first then it's a coin toss wether or not the price gradually comes back up.  Another effect of reprinting is that all, thats right every single card I own would go on Ebay immediately.  It would show such a utter lack of confidence and faith in their game to reprint that I believe it would be the sign of the end of magic. 

  BTW, I only own two pieces of power.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Reprints have been discussed to death. Are you sure you have something new to add? Quick searching yields these threads:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=18416.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=20744.0
http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=275320&highlight=reprints
http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=192310&highlight=reprints

My particular post on this in one of the above threads:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=20744.msg332612#msg332612


I advise anyone thinking about posting on this to see whether something they're saying has been rehashed again and again. Chances are, it has.

[dandan]

At a certain point, allowing proxies effectively means you are making reprints as every card could be a Lotus or an Ancestral, etc. The fact that the more widespread use of proxies has led to a clear increase in prices of the originals is strong evidence that the prices of Power cards would not plummet if there were a limited reprint. If allowing every single card ever printed to be used as a Lotus has not lead to a price decrease, why would printing a limited number of WB cards be any different?

I've seen a number of proxy cards that would make a WB new card format Lotus look like a poor imitation in comparison.

Dr. Sylvan - Sorry but I feel the need to tackle the idea that cards that have a high value because of playability would suffer from a growing format.

[crazedpenguinman]

As far as speculation on prices goes, the best solution to this problem I've heard (if reprints did occur) is to simply print the power without pictures, honestly, who wants to own a card thats not got art. Of course that in turn poses problems about counterfeiting etc.

Of course there is always the option of printing foil promo's, judge foils etc. Those foils were originally created to provide incentive for judges to judge high-caliber events, who wouldn't judge a PT for a foil Mox, or bazaar? However this doesn't solve the problem of price, the foils aren't going to impact the supply a great deal which means the old versions are still just as expensive.

There isn't a perfect answer as far as reprints are concerned, personally I doubt they will happen. The only time I can see moxen being reprinted is if the game starts to SERIOUSLY lose popularity.

[NastyNate]

I am not advocating for or against reprints one way or another. I am fully powered and have all the vintage staples, so I do not need them per se. What I want to know is what would have to happen in order for it to take place. I don't want to hear about Wizards facing financial collapse and reprinting power as a "last gasp," to stay alive. I want to know what events, assuming WOTC is doing very well financially, could lead up to this actually happening, and what kind of impact it would have.

Maybe this is a rehashed subject of sorts, but it related to the proxy debate, which is also rehashed and going quite strong a post down from here. I hate to think Vintage is always going to require more nad more proxies, and unsanctioned support from Wizards to survive. I hate to think that the price barrier for those actually interested in the format will continue to rise. And I especially dislike the idea that the growth and health of or format is tied to basic plains and sharpies.

P.S. Thanks for the links good doctor, but those threads, which I read the first time around, are over year old; is it too early for my renewed interest on the subject? I did not believe I was posting redundant forum spam, if that is what you are trying to insinuate. Sorry.

[Purple Hat]

this doesn't solve the reprint issue in any way but I think it'd be sweet if the gencon top 8 got to draft a special set of power nine printed specially for the tournament.  I've been saying this for a while and it doesn't relate to my recent success in any way, but to have one of our premire events have no prize differentiation between 2nd and 8th places seems kinda silly to me.  Basically once we cut to top 8 we were playing a single elimination tournament for the painting.  Maybe that's standard in other formats but in most of our other major events there's a reason to play out the loser's bracket in top eight.  The difference between 4th and 5th at SCG power tournaments is getting a sapphire/time walk or getting a jet.  While not overwhelming, it is a difference and it is meaningful.

Hale Simon

[prosbloom225]

As far as speculation on prices goes, the best solution to this problem I've heard (if reprints did occur) is to simply print the power without pictures, honestly, who wants to own a card thats not got art. Of course that in turn poses problems about counterfeiting etc.

Of course there is always the option of printing foil promo's, judge foils etc. Those foils were originally created to provide incentive for judges to judge high-caliber events, who wouldn't judge a PT for a foil Mox, or bazaar? However this doesn't solve the problem of price, the foils aren't going to impact the supply a great deal which means the old versions are still just as expensive.

There isn't a perfect answer as far as reprints are concerned, personally I doubt they will happen. The only time I can see moxen being reprinted is if the game starts to SERIOUSLY lose popularity.

I would like to buy power that did not have art if it costed less.  I'm more about functionability than aesthetics.  I'd rather have the cards to play than have the most pimped out deck.  Once I have the deck built, thats a different story.  I pimp away then, but until that point, and by that I mean owning full power, I would gladly buy the non-pictured power.

[crazedpenguinman]

Quote from: crazedpenguinman on Yesterday at 10:09:54 PM

As far as speculation on prices goes, the best solution to this problem I've heard (if reprints did occur) is to simply print the power without pictures, honestly, who wants to own a card thats not got art. Of course that in turn poses problems about counterfeiting etc.

Of course there is always the option of printing foil promo's, judge foils etc. Those foils were originally created to provide incentive for judges to judge high-caliber events, who wouldn't judge a PT for a foil Mox, or bazaar? However this doesn't solve the problem of price, the foils aren't going to impact the supply a great deal which means the old versions are still just as expensive.

There isn't a perfect answer as far as reprints are concerned, personally I doubt they will happen. The only time I can see moxen being reprinted is if the game starts to SERIOUSLY lose popularity.

I would like to buy power that did not have art if it costed less.  I'm more about functionability than aesthetics.  I'd rather have the cards to play than have the most pimped out deck.  Once I have the deck built, thats a different story.  I pimp away then, but until that point, and by that I mean owning full power, I would gladly buy the non-pictured power.

That what? Effectively proves my statement? That the best reprints that could get printed would be pictureless? Also, would this mean the price of normal power would stay the same? I beleive the price of cards is not only the reason this idea exists but also the main concern not only of people interested in reprints, but also wizards.

[prosbloom225]

I believe that reprinting them would be considered somewhat illegal because of the adverse effect it would have on the aftermarket and there are laws preventing a company from getting involved too much with the aftermarket of their product.

[dandan]

Nobody interested in Magic would take on Wizards and win. As has already been pointed out, the Reserved List has a number of exceptions that could be exploited, Wizards could print blank cards (again) or they could change the Reserved List (again) due to public demand (again). Seeing as Wizards have entered into no contracts regarding the sale of any Reserved Cards since the Reserved List was made up, it can only be viewed as a statement of intent. Wizards have every right to use their intellectual property any way they choose barring any secret deal with Richard Garfield.

[Metman]

Look at this question from a economic and business standpoint.  The market right now is bloated.  Yes, the power may increase in price until the world explodes but I'm guessing that prices will fall eventually.  The reason the price is so high is because of the demand for these cards.  People feel obligated to make their decks look cool with alpha/beta cards.  So even after you've collected power you want more power.  This said, Wizards doesn't make a dime if a 18 year old Black Lotus sells for 1 grand.  If they reprinted 25 vintage staples and stuffed them in some packs they would sell like hotcakes.  I sure as hell would buy until I had them all and I currently own power.  They wouldn't have to make them standard legal but they could sell them off as collector cards, eat your heart out foils.  It has already been mentioned before but the format is way too expensive right now; could you imagine somebody interested in playing vintage?  They would have to cough up $30+ for blue duals.  That's stupid! 
All you turds out there are more concerned about your pocket books than playing the game.  I remember when I could buy a Mox for 15 bucks.  I have absolutely no problem with people making proxies, as many as they want for that matter.  The game is too expensive for people to play so reprint away.

[dicemanx]

That's stupid!
All you turds out there are more concerned about your pocket books than playing the game.  I remember when I could buy a Mox for 15 bucks.  I have absolutely no problem with people making proxies, as many as they want for that matter.  The game is too expensive for people to play so reprint away.

Hey chief, you know what's even more stupid? Advocating something that would make you lose thousands of dollars (advocating reprints if you are the owner of old expensive cards), especially if there are viable alternatives. Perhaps you have money to burn and you wouldn't care if this happens, but I certainly would mind.

I'm all for making the game more accessible to others, but that's what proxy events are for. If the barrier to entry keeps going up because prices on low-mid range staples keeps increasing, then its time to look into upping the proxy counts. 

[Metman]

That's stupid!
All you turds out there are more concerned about your pocket books than playing the game.  I remember when I could buy a Mox for 15 bucks.  I have absolutely no problem with people making proxies, as many as they want for that matter.  The game is too expensive for people to play so reprint away.

Hey chief, you know what's even more stupid? Advocating something that would make you lose thousands of dollars (advocating reprints if you are the owner of old expensive cards), especially if there are viable alternatives. Perhaps you have money to burn and you wouldn't care if this happens, but I certainly would mind.

I'm all for making the game more accessible to others, but that's what proxy events are for. If the barrier to entry keeps going up because prices on low-mid range staples keeps increasing, then its time to look into upping the proxy counts. 

Where I come from we don't have proxied events and I think that most others are in the same boat.  I also think that, yes, the price of power and others would drop in price most likely dramatically if they reprinted some cards.  On the other hand, type one staples are in an inflated state and I think that many of us have profited greatly because of so.  I would rather see the market where it should be than where it's going.  So, if Wizards decides to reprint make sure you get out before they make the announcement.  It's just like investing in stock.  You can't control what the company decides to do, just make sure that you are wise with you investment and that means liquidating your assets when necessary.  I think what is best for the game is to keep new players interested and to make money off those new players.  If people wanting to play the game and what to play type 1 than reprint the power.  There is a huge market for it and it, it would level the playing field, and get the market back where it should be.

[dicemanx]

Where I come from we don't have proxied events and I think that most others are in the same boat.

Perhaps your time would be better spent trying to get your local stores to get with the times and start offering proxy events rather than crusading for something that will likely never happen in the near future.

  I also think that, yes, the price of power and others would drop in price most likely dramatically if they reprinted some cards.  On the other hand, type one staples are in an inflated state and I think that many of us have profited greatly because of so.  I would rather see the market where it should be than where it's going.  So, if Wizards decides to reprint make sure you get out before they make the announcement.  It's just like investing in stock.  You can't control what the company decides to do, just make sure that you are wise with you investment and that means liquidating your assets when necessary. 

Great advice. Now perhaps I can focus on developing my psychic powers to "make sure I get out before they make the announcement".

While I don't disagree with your "stock market" analogy, what I found inane was your willful attempt at sabotaging your own "stock".  While your altruistic approach is admirable, I doubt very many share your view in light of the fact that there is a simpler solution (proxy events) to solving the barrier to entry problem that doesn't diminish our investment. I like the market "where it's going" and I like the fact that I have profited from investing in the game.

[Dipstik]

I'm almost positive there would be nothing "illegal" about wizards reprinting black lotus, but I'm curious... where are you getting that idea from?

[coop]

Wizards created a reserved list of cards they promised that they would never reprint, I'm not a lawyer but I doubt it is illegal for a company to go back on their word, but with all the crazy law suites these days who knows?

[Polynomial P]

It has been stated in several other threads, but they have changed their reserve list in the past. Additionally, this is not a legal binding contract but a statement of policy, which is subject to change.

[CHA1N5]

That, and the policy as it exists today has a giant loophole related to the "premiumness" of such reprints.

[jcb193]

I don't think i would have a problem if WOTC made P9 tokens.  These cards would be similar to the power nine (so people wouldn't have to play with markered land cards), would be easy to read, could be sold by dealer, and would allow TO to organize tourneys that did not have proxies.

PROS:
All cards would be easily read, conform to WTC standards
Tournament Organizers could hold non-proxy events, thus allowing them to sell more singles (if no proxies, people would have to buy all the $1-$50 cards).
Pimpers would still want their "original power"- thus maintaining the demand

CONS:
P-9 prices might stabilize
People would have to buy all the non P9 cards they want to play with 

[Komatteru]

I'm really really sick of all these "OMG! Reprint! derf derf" threads.  WotC won't reprint the damn cards unless Magic is about to go under, at which point it won't matter.  Asking them to print fake versions of real cards also isn't going to happen.  Bottom line: keep a steady supply of sharpies and basic Plains around, cause that's what you're going to need for the next forever.

[Metman]

I'm really really sick of all these "OMG! Reprint! derf derf" threads.  WotC won't reprint the damn cards unless Magic is about to go under, at which point it won't matter.  Asking them to print fake versions of real cards also isn't going to happen.  Bottom line: keep a steady supply of sharpies and basic Plains around, cause that's what you're going to need for the next forever.

When you put it that way WotC wouldn't reprint anything, but if you look at it from a business standpoint they could make a lot of money from reprinting cards.  I like the idea of printing tokens as proxies and I could foresee them doing something of the like but to blow off the idea that they wouldn't do something that would make a lot of money is a bit naive.

[Komatteru]

When you put it that way WotC wouldn't reprint anything, but if you look at it from a business standpoint they could make a lot of money from reprinting cards.  I like the idea of printing tokens as proxies and I could foresee them doing something of the like but to blow off the idea that they wouldn't do something that would make a lot of money is a bit naive.

It's bad business to alienate a large portion of your customers to make money with a different half.  Violating the trust of people who buy your products ensures that no one will want to buy your products in the future.  That's not very good business.

[NastyNate]

It seems then that the general consensus is that vintage staples will not be reprinted, nor will any circumstances short of financial collapse change wizard's reprint policies. Fine by me for now...

Premium foils would be nice, and would increase the number of power cards in rotation, but not enough to slow the increasing price barriers that are making vintage inaccessible to new players.

So it seems we have then reached our peak. This is the biggest vintage will ever be, and the future of our format is completely up in the air. Does this bother anyone as much as it bothers me?

[Marton]

I think that all it means is that you will see more proxies, nothing much more. I don't believe that vintage would start 'falling down' because of the lack of real power cards.

[Polynomial P]

It does bother me, and it does bother a lot of people in the T1 community. Right now vintage is the only format that I play, and I hope that it continues to bring people in and allow the format to grow. I came into the format with the vintage "staples", duals, forces, all the vintage cards $40 and under. I would not be playing vintage now if I had to buy duals at 30+, forces at 25, all the other rares at 5-10. Proxies are helping the format to continue, but it doesnt seem to be growing much as the SCG attendance is at a constant level over the past year.

Wizards will not reprint the "vintage staples" as they are, but the Ravnica duals show that they are willing to print cards that are close to the originals. Maybe in the near future FOW will be sorta reprinted, and proxies can take care of the rest. I do think the proxy count could be increased to 12 and that would allow anyone to play any deck they want (except the ridiculously expensive uba stax) as long as they get duals, FOW and mana Crypt.

FOW is not on the reserve list, so it will be interesting if WotC will reprint it to aid the budding legacy format. I hope that WOTC's newfound attention to legacy will aid vintage in the future, but I do not expect any sort of reprint of the P9.

[Marton]

Vintage is the only format I play as well, and unfortunately, I didn't get a 'cheap price' nowhere near the price you paid for your cards. Vintage is more like a format that you slowly accumulate the cards to play into. You can't just go and, out of a impulsive buy urge, buy all 40x duals at 1000$ CAN, and realize that you can't a)find them with ease b)use them to build a deck right-off the bat. You need to really gradually go search the card you need (which can be hard to get in trade/cash, let alone find someone willing to trade/sell). In short, power 9 or not, if you play vintage you pretty much have no choice to very gradually build up your deck(s).

I do keep in mind steve m. comment that people won't play vintage tournaments anymore with budget decks: people only want to play if they have the full deal. Well, I have something to add to that. If Wizard was to print a hoser soo good that would render powered deck very much a vulnerability, and make non-powered decks very much compete, that would probably get the trend to start reversing. I do understand the caveat that printing such a hoser would likely end up making a new stax deck, or make the games one-sided if the hoser is not 'properly done'. I know it's hard to ignore that we already have chalice, null rod, gorilla shaman as very good hosers, but would they make something really insane I believe they could reverse the trend.

[jcb193]

I think the only true T1 hoser that would be fair and effective would be to play for ante- everything else is dependant on going first.  Better decks would fare better, but would have more to lose. 

People would definitely advocate playing budget decks if players still played for ante.

This is not a proposal, just an aside. 

[Bastian]

I liked Vintage and it's a format that I still admire and I like to keep informed about, but far before the changes to type 1.5 I had made the transition to that format because it was widely more accessible, even though it had some powerful and expensive stapples: Mishra's Workshop, Bazaars, etc... they weren't required to make a deck. So I stick up with that format. If most people are feeling down about not being able to have a reprint on power cards then considering to start playing a more accessible format is something to consider.

Of course I'm just defending my cause here.

Furthermore if a reprint of the power cards happened even though Wizards could have extreme profits from the sales of their packs on the long run they would suffer a lot because most players would suddenly start ignoring their money-making formats: standard and block constructed mostly, because everyone would start playing type 1, where just very few cards from the most recent sets matter. A vintage player should consider himself lucky if a set releases three or more playable cards for a competitive environment nowadays.

Either way it's pointless discussing something that will never happen unless the game's dying and they're in dire need of the cash. Grow over it. I know I did...