Control Slaver; Card quality choices

[forests failed you]

Clown, I love and respect you dude, but Titan!?  I didn't play with Titan or Draksteel at Gencon, and I didn't miss them for a second.  Mindslaver does all of the work for you.  Its a fucking beating and it wins you the game. 

With respect to the robots of the deck:  I really like the mix of Trisk and Pentavus.  Pentavus the Tinker Target against Stax, and Trisk is your bomb against aggro.  And against control Mindslaver is the right robot for the job. 

I disagree that Titan wins the control mirror.  Gorilla Shaman wins the control mirror, and instead of eight mana it only costs one!  Shaman is fucking savage, I'm now playing two maindeck in my current list.

Also, there is no reason not to include citadel and Mana Vault in the maindeck.  They are both really good.  Citadel does so much.  It resists Gorilla Shaman, it can't be wasted or striped.  It powers up Academy.  It allows you to Tinker with Chalice zero on the board, and lets you Weld with Chalice one and Zero on the board.  Not to mention it looks sweet in foil and pitches to TFK.

I agree with you guys very strongly on the issue of the Slaver V Stax matchup analysis.  The only three cards in Stax I even remotely care about are turn one Trinisphere, and then In the Eye of Chaos and Chains.  Other than that Slaver has a stupid good matchup against it.  Smokestack is awful when I have a Welder on the board.  In fact in a less Workshop heavy metagame I almost always opt to play on three maindeck Welders, because I hate drawing them in the early game except against shop.  I'd much rather have a Brainstorm in my hand, or a random blue spell, or a Gorilla Shaman.  I only played four because when Windfall, Onelovemachine, and myself were hanging out at GenCon the night before the top tables were all Stax.  I thought what the hell, I'll just go for the overkill.  But against Gifts, The Mirror, and Combo... Welder is usually an afterthought, I'd much rather draw into him around turn three than have him in my opening hand.  Stax or Shop decks are the only time that I really think Volcanic Island Welder is a great play (and I think that Volcanic, Shaman is still stronger than that many times).  j

I just can't say enough good things about the little red Gorilla.  Perhaps, I'm just a keeper player at heart.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Clown, I love and respect you dude, but Titan!? I didn't play with Titan or Draksteel at Gencon, and I didn't miss them for a second. Mindslaver does all of the work for you. Its a fucking beating and it wins you the game.

With respect to the robots of the deck: I really like the mix of Trisk and Pentavus. Pentavus the Tinker Target against Stax, and Trisk is your bomb against aggro. And against control Mindslaver is the right robot for the job.

I disagree that Titan wins the control mirror. Gorilla Shaman wins the control mirror, and instead of eight mana it only costs one! Shaman is fucking savage, I'm now playing two maindeck in my current list.

Also, there is no reason not to include citadel and Mana Vault in the maindeck. They are both really good. Citadel does so much. It resists Gorilla Shaman, it can't be wasted or striped. It powers up Academy. It allows you to Tinker with Chalice zero on the board, and lets you Weld with Chalice one and Zero on the board. Not to mention it looks sweet in foil and pitches to TFK.

I agree with you guys very strongly on the issue of the Slaver V Stax matchup analysis. The only three cards in Stax I even remotely care about are turn one Trinisphere, and then In the Eye of Chaos and Chains. Other than that Slaver has a stupid good matchup against it. Smokestack is awful when I have a Welder on the board. In fact in a less Workshop heavy metagame I almost always opt to play on three maindeck Welders, because I hate drawing them in the early game except against shop. I'd much rather have a Brainstorm in my hand, or a random blue spell, or a Gorilla Shaman. I only played four because when Windfall, Onelovemachine, and myself were hanging out at GenCon the night before the top tables were all Stax. I thought what the hell, I'll just go for the overkill. But against Gifts, The Mirror, and Combo... Welder is usually an afterthought, I'd much rather draw into him around turn three than have him in my opening hand. Stax or Shop decks are the only time that I really think Volcanic Island Welder is a great play (and I think that Volcanic, Shaman is still stronger than that many times). j

I just can't say enough good things about the little red Gorilla. Perhaps, I'm just a keeper player at heart.

Gorilla Shaman is very strong, and as such, I have included one MD over the vamp. tutor. Sundering titan does the same thing shaman was intended to do: Deny the opponent mana advantage(well, except in the mirror, where it's absolutely ridiculous). I played 3 slaver mirrors at GenCon. I won 2 because of titan. Look at gifts; it's a very land light deck that runs high CC spells. A combination of titan/shaman is a beating on them.

-Bob

[prosbloom225]

Stax has an edge over control slaver because every card is a threat after sb'ing.  Also, smokestack is nuts versus everything.  If you can get a welder out and active and in front of tangle wires/dupli/ect.  then you deserve to take it out.  Stack is completely one-sided and the deck can just go t1 3sphere/crucilock go.  Stax has a slight advantage in game 1 depending on the draw, but to say that CS just steamrolls stax is way off.

[Arvid]

Because that means you are fetching out a dual on turn 1 which will get wasted.  That means you won't have drain online by turn 2.

That is like the worst argument ever. You could say that to lists of Keeper, EBA and their likes, too then. Even if you save the duress in hand to get UU online turn 2 it's still a good card to play turn 3, no? And Duress shines to most against combo IMO and combo doesn't play Waste/Strip. Playing land-go against combo is not a very strong play.

Quote fixed. - Bram

[cosineme]

Fuck Slaving someone eh...I'll always Slave over dropping Titan in a Drain deck. We're not talking about 7/10, 5/3, or any other form of a Workshop deck here. I respect your PoV on the matter, but I've played Titan numerous times and haven't been personally impressed with his performance.

Winning the control mirror, many times, comes down to winning the mana war.  Dropping a 7/10 threat that takes out 2+ lands and takes out more if they can deal with it will go a long waaaay towards winning the game while a slave can just be a time walk.  Obv, theres a time and a place for each, but with the amount of multicolored control running around Titan is pretty freaking amazing right now.

What? Given the chance, you would rather titan a Control player, rather than slaving him? Sure, slaving an aggro player is often just a time walk, but I would slave a control/combo player every chance I get. A single slave will insure the game. Even with no cards in hand, a single top deck (by him or you) can completely change the game state. Sure, titan will destroy a player's mana base, but it doesn't always take out 2+ lands, and it is "easily" dealt with, what with all the MB bounce, removal, etc.

Slaving a control player doesn't "win" the game, but it insures a future win at your leisure. As the control player, no need to rush it.

[Sexy_Rector]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all of the helpful advice and insight.  I really would of been lost without it.  Now, I honestly do now know whether or not Sundering titan has a role in the main or not, but I do really, really like the idea of gorilla shaman.  Also, from my limited experience I have with the deck, I have to agree that Welder is merely an after though in anything other than the stax matchup.  It normally seems like welder is there just to get the mindslaver lock rolling and I really would much rather draw into the blue cards in my deck instead of the welders.  I wish to move this discussion to sideboard choices.  Duress seems so solid but I can really see the mana issues, I like the Idea of ReB and Pyroclasm.  What else?  Is arcane lab really that essential?

Thanks again you guys

[Godot]

@cosineme

Which part of:

Obv, theres a time and a place for each

didnt you understand?

Magic is not a game of absolutes.  If my opponent has an Island and two fetches Titan is pretty assy, but if they've gotten a heavy dual draw then hes house.  You make the play that gives you the best chance to win--sometimes its Slaver and sometimes its Titan. 

A single slave will insure the game. Even with no cards in hand, a single top deck (by him or you) can completely change the game state. Sure, titan will destroy a player's mana base, but it doesn't always take out 2+ lands, and it is "easily" dealt with, what with all the MB bounce, removal, etc.

A single slave does not ensure the game.  I've won many times despite being slaved once.  And frankly, Im a lot less worried about the topdeck after hitting their manabase with a Titan than after a single Slave.  Again, you make the play that gives you the best chance to win based on a particular gamestate sometimes its Titan, sometimes its Slaver and sometimes its neither one.  Locking yourself into thinking that one is always better than the other is just dumb.

[Moxlotus]

Because that means you are fetching out a dual on turn 1 which will get wasted.  That means you won't have drain online by turn 2.

That is like the worst argument ever. You could say that to lists of Keeper, EBA and their likes, too then. Even if you save the duress in hand to get UU online turn 2 it's still a good card to play turn 3, no? And Duress shines to most against combo IMO and combo doesn't play Waste/Strip. Playing land-go against combo is not a very strong play.

Quote fixed. - Bram

How good are Keeper, EBA and their likes in today's metagame?

Duress is only as good as the card you make them discard.  This means the earlier you play it, the better card you will be able to pick.  If you are waiting until turn 3, Duress isn't as good.

How popular is combo in today's metagame compared to decks that run wasteland?

[prosbloom225]

Duress is suboptimal unless you are playing combo and cannot afford to run drains/ect.  Even then, all combo does is remove opponents counters if they're planning on going off.  Mana drain > duress.

[Arvid]

Duress is only as good as the card you make them discard.  This means the earlier you play it, the better card you will be able to pick.  If you are waiting until turn 3, Duress isn't as good.

How popular is combo in today's metagame compared to decks that run wasteland?

My meta, the swedish, has been dominated by combo (tps) lately, but you're right - that's metagaming.

[forests failed you]

Like Godot said:  Magic isn't a game of absolutes.

If you think Duress will help you win a tourney play it.  If you think it is a draw back to fetch out Underground Sea don't. 

Its all about playing the odds.  If it helps you win more than it costs you games do it.  Since I haven't seen any Slaver lists with md Duress, I will assume that the majority of good players think it hurts more than it helps.

[Xman]

Its all about playing the odds.  If it helps you win more than it costs you games do it.  Since I haven't seen any Slaver lists with md Duress, I will assume that the majority of good players think it hurts more than it helps.

The game is about playing the odds.  In order to get better at judging what your opponent who you have never played before has, I suggest playing some poker (besides, it is profitable).

Anyway, On topic now so I don't get edited by Jacob.  A while back, I actually ran 3 duress mainboard in CS.  They worked out really well, until I ended up going to a tournament where most of the meta was stax, Dragon, Welder, etc.  Then duress really seems rather weak.  But if decks that don't abuse the yard something fierce are not expected, then by all means, play a few maindeck duress, as it is a a pretty good card.

Edit:  Besides, duress turn 1 in game 1 reads "Look at opponents hand.  Find out what opponent is playing, and screw them as much as you can!"

[forests failed you]

You play Duress in a field where you expect a lot of Combo and Gifts.  It is really good against those matchups.  However it is weak against Stax.  It is what it is.  I like to run two in my board, it seems a stronger card to bring in than Stifle... Especially against Draw Seven and Belcher.