[Premium Article] Playing Meandeck Gifts

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10315.html

The two biggest threats to Gifts Ungiven decks in Vintage are Control Slaver and Stax. Today Steve breaks down both of those matchups as well as dissecting some important changes in Gifts decklists that will let players better compete in a metagame that is prepared for them.

I hope you like it and find it insightful and helpful. 

[sa-x]

Good read, thanks for the insight.  I think the most important part of playing gifts is having the sb that's right for YOUR metagame.  Don't be afraid to tweak the list and go for what makes the deck work the best for YOU.

[Smmenen]

That's true.  What did you think of my Stax analysis though?

[doylehancock]

That's true.  What did you think of my Stax analysis though?

I like your thoughts on Stax.  I really liked the mana base changes.  What was the list you ran at origins?

Also I am sure you have noticed that many a people have dropped one misdirection for a vamp tutor.  What are your thoughts on this?

What do you think about duress in the board like Randy explained in your interview?

I realise you said no black in board (outside of tendrils) but it seems duress is a good choice.

I like how you have made this deck into a mono blue deck because as you said in your first article you can play it like mono blue.  This is why back to basics is house in the board.  What do you think of back to basics in the board?

Sorry to ask so many questions but I am still learning a lot with this deck.

thanks and kick ass article.

[cosineme]

nice article, very interesting...
so now you have MD gifts down to a singular win condition?
this seems as if your burning wish is considerably weaker, perhaps even a card that can be cut.
when you yawg will, replaying all your scrolls and brainstorms, a.recall, it will net you a hand of 5 - 7 counterspells. that, plus the fact that your yawg will resolved, means that any threat they might topdeck will be easily countered for the single additional turn that you give your opponent due to the lack of multiple recurring time walks.

also, in many of your matchup analyses, you play more defensively than what you used to advocate (merchant scroll for a.recall first turn). Is that due to a fundamental change in how you are playing the deck? or is the change because of the fact that you have knowledge of what kind of deck you are playing against. surely, against workshop decks, with their innumerable threats, merchant scroll for FOW is the correct play. however, is this the correct play against all other decks as well?

[arj]

The risk of drawing into a no land hand with the gifts list is 8.2% of the time.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

The cron stax matchup is basically all about tinker. Cron stax does not run counters and only a few answers to DSC (Swords, balance, truth), so an early tinker means GG. Ramping a smokestack likely won't help either. Even postboard, ITEOC does not stop scroll--->Mystical---->tinker.

Also, if there is a significant increase in Gifts decks, is Twincast a better SB card than duress? I can see it being a bomb in the mirror, and not terrible vs. CS.

-Bob

[Smmenen]

The risk of drawing into a no land hand with the gifts list is 8.2% of the time.

What is the risk of drawing no land with the Gifts list that got 2nd place at gencon?  It only has 14 lands.

Bob - I don't play aggressive Tinker against Cron Stax.  I think that is risky against good players because good players will anticipate it and have answers, in my view.  I prefer playing the control role and bouncing and them combo as I described.   Red Elemental Blast is a much better card and a bigger bomb that Twincast will ever be in the Gifts mirror or against Control Slaver.  I advocate 4 Rebs in the SB. 

@Cosime?  Singular Win Condition?  I have no idea what on earth you are talking about?  The analysis I presented was limited to the two archetypes I discussed.  Every deck has a different game and you need to determine what the proper role of the Gifts player is. 

@Doyle - did you read the article?  It should have been clear what my response to the Vamp question would be if you had actually read the article instead of skimmed it.    My advice to your questions is just to go back and re-read the article.  If you get in the frame of mind and let what I said soak in you'll have a better understanding of the deck. 

[Polynomial P]

Steve, in your article you said "The only two Black spells between the maindeck and sideboard are Demonic Tutor and Yawgmoth's Will. With a final Gifts sometimes being Black Lotus, Mox Jet, Tolarian Academy, and Lotus Petal, the lone Underground Sea was not a problem."

I think readers may have thought you took out tendrils of agony and thus went with a singular win condition in DSC-->tinker.

[arj]

What is the risk of drawing no land with the Gifts list that got 2nd place at gencon?  It only has 14 lands.

9.6% assuming 60 cards deck.

Also the probability of having a lotus with a no-land hand is 16.7% with a 15 land deck

Edit: clarification

[Smmenen]

Steve, in your article you said "The only two Black spells between the maindeck and sideboard are Demonic Tutor and Yawgmoth's Will. With a final Gifts sometimes being Black Lotus, Mox Jet, Tolarian Academy, and Lotus Petal, the lone Underground Sea was not a problem."

I think readers may have thought you took out tendrils of agony and thus went with a singular win condition in DSC-->tinker.

Yeah good point.  I didn't mean to imply that I cut Tendrils  - I just don't think of it as a SB card (becuase it isn't ).

[doylehancock]

@Doyle - did you read the article?  It should have been clear what my response to the Vamp question would be if you had actually read the article instead of skimmed it.    My advice to your questions is just to go back and re-read the article.  If you get in the frame of mind and let what I said soak in you'll have a better understanding of the deck. 

I did read the article.  You said no black in board but I was wondering about duress.  Isnt it good enought to include?

Yes you said back to basics is house but you never said you were running it.  I have never seen a list of yours for gifts where you are running back in the board.

Also you never gave your list for origins thats why I asked for it.

thanks

[cosineme]

Steve, in your article you said "The only two Black spells between the maindeck and sideboard are Demonic Tutor and Yawgmoth's Will. With a final Gifts sometimes being Black Lotus, Mox Jet, Tolarian Academy, and Lotus Petal, the lone Underground Sea was not a problem."

I think readers may have thought you took out tendrils of agony and thus went with a singular win condition in DSC-->tinker.

exactly, Poly beat me to it. saying you are only running 2 black cards total in the main and the side means that there is no room for tendrils, and hence my discourse into whether or not burning wish could be cut.

my other point is that in many of your specific play examples, you play the way you do because you know what deck you are facing. maybe your discussion lends itself to a top 8, where you are able to see decklists, but many of us don't have the luxury of knowing what our opponent will be playing before. hence, game 1's, going first, is it still appropriate to scroll for recall, or is now the prototypical play to scroll for force.

that's all.

[Smmenen]

I think that is a really difficult question that depends upon how you view your role in any given game.

I think that role is the most fundamental question this gifts deck faces.  Are you control or are you beatdown?  What you scrolll up will shape your role.  Sometimes, it just depends on the hand you are given.  If you have a really explosive hand it might be best just to go balls to the walls. 

I tend to play the deck as a control deck that shifts roles midgame.  Does that help?

My maindeck at Origins was the same deck I published in the article except that I went to 2 duals each and more basics. 

[Disburden]

I did read the article.  You said no black in board but I was wondering about duress.  Isnt it good enought to include?


thanks

I think it's been clear since the first forum topic was open about this deck a few months ago that Duress MD and in the SB wasn't needed at all. I've seen lists running it in the sideboard, but I don't see the reasoning why except that the person says, "I want to run Duress so badly, I'll put it here!" What matchups do you consider Duress useful where any other card in Steve's list becomes inferior?

[doylehancock]

I like duress in mirror match of course.  And against combo.  Its better then misdirection against combo.

Dont forget UW has swords and you can discard the swords then tinker.

I like the duress a lot it surprises me no else sees this

[Disburden]

I like duress in mirror match of course.  And against combo.  Its better then misdirection against combo.

Dont forget UW has swords and you can discard the swords then tinker.

I like the duress a lot it surprises me no else sees this

 Against combo I really don't see the benefits of needing more black sources to run Duress. This would make you need more than one underground sea and alter your mana base considerably. The reason I say that I don't understand why Duress does so much for you against combo is that you can use other Blue sources in your SB to beat combo, plus you run a fuck ton more countermagic than combo to stop them anyway.

UW runs swords, I know, but you also run more counters than UW and if you know how to play control you can predict the swords and FOW/Drain/misdirect/REB it away when it's casted.

[cosineme]

You really have no idea...TPS destroys MD gifts. Duress is much MUCH stronger than mana drain against combo. the only reason why people don't advocate it is because of the mana base, not because duress isn't a strong card. in fact, if there was much more combo, you would prefer to play duress over mana drain. By turn two, they will already have so many threats that a single drain won't stop anything

[Komatteru]

You really have no idea...TPS destroys MD gifts. Duress is much MUCH stronger than mana drain against combo. the only reason why people don't advocate it is because of the mana base, not because duress isn't a strong card. in fact, if there was much more combo, you would prefer to play duress over mana drain. By turn two, they will already have so many threats that a single drain won't stop anything

I can't make TPS beat Meandeck Gifts (Long is a different story though).  I'm like one of the most premiere combo players in the format and a member of Meandeck, but I sure as hell have no idea how to make TPS win that match.  Care to enlighten us?  If your answer is Duress, I hate to break it to you, but you don't always get to Duress 4 times in the first 3 turns against Meandeck Gifts.  How do you deal with that MD Gifts is about 1 turn slower than TPS on a goldfish and runs much more and stronger disruption, and TPS has no disruption other than Duress (4 FoW just don't cut it)?

[Smmenen]

I have never lost to TPS.  I played the Swiss champion at Gencon and I 2-0ed him MDGifts over TPS.   A big part of beating TPS is Scrolling for FOW and Drain.

[Disburden]

Te 100% fact of the matter is that if you can not find any counters to beat combo than you are NOT playing this deck correctly. You can always find ways to counter a threat with this deck, it is like mono U on steroids and with a superior win condition.

I stand by my opinion that people that want Duress just want to run it because they like Duress as a card and not because it is superior in the deck than other choices that Steve has already pointed out to us in the MD and the SB.

If you think that Duress fits the deck than I expect a huge explaination of how the card wins matches over the cards already included. If you think people don't run Duress because of the mana base, and that is minor to you,  than you need to understand one of the foundamental parts of deck building, which is to make an invincible mana base.

[Dozer]

I have lost to TPS with Gifts before, but only though correctable mistakes. I think Gifts is the better deck and has the upper hand in the matchup.

From Smmenen's discussion of the CS matchup, I took the following snippet:

If you can assume a defensive posture and play mono blue, you will win.

Perfectly true, and this is something that Duress will not allow you to do. Duress is an aggressive play, giving your opponent an opening that a control deck like CS or Stax can use. You don't want to flinch first! Duress may be better against combo, but I see it as overkill in that matchup.

However I had problems with Misdirections before. As some of you may recall, I have been playing Disrupting Shoal to great effect, but that wasn't sufficient either. I am now playing Mana Leaks. I have to deal with aggro decks, and permanents more than opposing counters, and Leak is superior to Misdirection in that respect. A Land-Mox-opening becomes even stronger with Leak around, and even at the tail end of a counterwar Mana Leak works fine. In my experience, it is no less dead than Misdirection and the better all-purpose counter. I had three for a while, but have reverted back to 1 Misdirection, 2 Mana Leak for the 4-counter-Gifts.

I know Leak crashes with Merchant Scroll on the first few turns, but it also enables the deck to assume the control role better. Plus, the presence of Leaks makes people very cautious when you have 1U open, which makes assuming the control role even easier.

So before you praise Duress to no end, I'd rather look into Blue what else is there to be had. And I saw the Leak, and the Leak was good.

Dozer

[Wolven]

If you are in a Stax dominant Meta, which I'm not so I havn't been able to test it, but could Annul be an option? Also against fish it can easily keep Chalice and Vial off the Table as well.

[doylehancock]

since it seems most are dismissing duress all together.  What are your side boards?   And do you agree with Steve about no Vamp TUtor?

[Draven]

Okay, I have a question that doesn't revolve around Duress... That question is when it comes to boarding with Gifts, what do you take out? The deck seems so tight, I just don't know what can be taken out. I think the Echoing Truth would be the first to come out against better hate cards, but what if you want to side in 3-4 REBs or 2-3 Racka nd Ruin and other hate. I just can't seem to find 4- 5 cards to take out.

What are your thoughts and ideas?

[Whatever Works]

I have never lost to TPS.  I played the Swiss champion at Gencon and I 2-0ed him MDGifts over TPS.   A big part of beating TPS is Scrolling for FOW and Drain.

My results agree 100% I am 4-0 with 8-1 games against tps in tourney matches... None of the tps players I played I would call slouches either, but the fact remains that combo just isnt good atm (though GTS might change that) gts = grim tutor storm (Mike long doesnt get credit this time).

[doylehancock]

Okay, I have a question that doesn't revolve around Duress... That question is when it comes to boarding with Gifts, what do you take out? The deck seems so tight, I just don't know what can be taken out. I think the Echoing Truth would be the first to come out against better hate cards, but what if you want to side in 3-4 REBs or 2-3 Racka nd Ruin and other hate. I just can't seem to find 4- 5 cards to take out.

What are your thoughts and ideas?

if you read Steves article he tells you what to side out.

[Draven]

I am sure, but I am part of the "No Premium"  group, so I was just looking for a little help... Thanks.

[doylehancock]

I am sure, but I am part of the "No Premium"  group, so I was just looking for a little help... Thanks.

sorry.  he suggest never more then one gifts.  Mox pearl as the first mox (though I dont know what the differnce is between pearl and emerald), a scroll or two, d tutor, m tutor.

those are some cards he lists.

[seer]

Actually, the probability of drawing a no land hand, with 15 lands in the deck is 11.8%. A fairly high probability.