2-Land Belcher

[Luiggi]

Based on JDizzle's recent success with 2-Land Belcher at GenCon and at one of Vroman's tournaments, I got to wondering whether or not it's viable in the current metagame.

First off, his GenCon build:

JD-Land Belcher

1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Channel
4 Land Grant
4 Tinder Wall
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
4 Chromatic Sphere
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Tinker
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence
1 Memory Jar
4 Joblin Welder
4 Duress
1 Oxidize
4 Joblin Charbelcher

Board:
1 Artifact Mutation
4 Carpet of Flowers
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Deconstruct
2 Naturalize
2 Oxidize
4 Xantid Swarm

You can read his Gencon report here: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=24523.0. For Vroman's tournament he changed the DSC in the SB to a Tendrils of Agony, that seems a lot better since the deck isn't running Tinker.

I took the deck to a 16-person tournament at Neutral Ground and went 4-1, losing only to a guy running 4-Color Control, who just had too much hate post-SB (Fire/Ice, StP, Annul, Gorilla Shaman, as well as the usual FoW and Drains). I also mis-boarded, I believe, which probably compounded things. According to JD, Duress gets swapped for Xantid Swarm in the control matches, and Tinder Walls gets swapped for Carpet of Flowers. Vs. Workshop decks you just bring in the artifact hate.

During the tournament I had a few turn 1 kills, as well as multiple turn 2 kills. Welders just give the deck an incredible resiliency to counters, and definitely belong in the deck. I also agree with JD in that Blue does not belong in the deck. The mana base is really consistent right now, and you can't count on having a Chromatic Sphere available when you need to cast that Tinker/Ancestral Recall/Timetwister. Yes, it's possible to run the Blue splash, but I don't think it's needed. However, I'm willing to hear arguments in favor of it, .

I think the deck can do well in the current meta because of its speed, that can make SB hate completely useless. It's not that vulnerable to things like Arcane Lab/Rule of Law, that other decks such as Long hate to see, and Crucible + Strip/Wasteland doesn't really bother the deck either. Sure a Chalice can hurt, but then again what deck these days is immune to Chalice? Null Rod is a pain, but we have Welders as well as a good variety of artifact hate in the SB. Alternatively we could just win before Fish can lay a Null Rod, . (Yes, I know that Uba Stax runs Null Rods too, but here I haven't seen anyone with a full playset of Bazaars and Workshops around here, and the NG tournaments are all non-proxy).

What do other people think of the deck? Is it a viable combo choice for the current meta? Is the Blue splash something that should be put back in? What changes would you make to the SB? Other thoughts on the deck?

Luiggi

[49 Cents]

I honestly don't think it's viable. JD's results are great of course, but he's still JDizzle, combo maniac.. Plus he got a grand total of THREE bye's during that Side Event..

With all the staxx around, chalices and Null Rod's become more and more common. Plus maindeck hate that can ruin Belcher's gameplan is played (Like the Rack and Ruin that f*cked JD). I just don't think that the deck can handle all that hate, since it dies to a first turn Sphere of Resistance, and even a Chalice for 0/1 can be really annoying..

[Luiggi]

The thing with Null Rod and Sphere of Resistance is that not that many decks run them. Null Rod has lately only been run in Uba Stax and some Fish builds, and Sphere of Resistance I've only seen in 5C-Stax lists like the one Roland Chang has used to much success lately.

In Uba Stax it's obviously a problem, and I guess that is actually one of Belcher's worst matchups because of it, Uba Stax's Chalices, etc. The thing is, as Smmenen and others have pointed out, Uba Stax is an extremely hard deck to build, especially in a zero-proxy environment like the tournaments I play in, which makes me much less worried about randomly getting paired against one. At a larger tournament, say one of StarCity's Power-9 events, I'd be much more worried about getting paird against Uba Stax, but even then not that much, since it's much more common to see Drain decks or other Workshop decks.

Against Fish, if they're even running Null Rods, there's a very good chance it won't come down until at least turn 1, since they typically only run a Mox or two and a Black Lotus. By the time it comes down we could've already won, or be in a position to win once we find our maindeck Oxidize.

Chalice, however, I do see as being a problem, but even then it's not that bad. We've got Land Grant to get our two lands, and we have lots of acceleration in each casting cost bracket: Moxes, Black Lotus, Lotus Petal, Mana Crypt and LED at 0cc; Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Tinder Wall and Dark Ritual at 1cc; Cabal Ritual and Grim Monolith at 2cc; and we even have Elvish Spirit Guide that is never affected by Chalice. Even with a Chalice for 0 down it's not the end of the world, since we can play our Moxes anyway and help get Threshold for Cabal Rituals. We also have Welders, that are huge against opposing Null Rods and Chalices, and we can just Weld in a Belcher if we discarded it. Sure, Chalice can be a pain, but it's not as devastating as against other decks, I think.

Maindeck artifact hate is also a problem, such as Rack and Ruin and Gorilla Shaman, but typically an opponent will need to burn a Tutor or spend a few turns trying to find it, by which point we could have very easily already won. A Shaman or Rack and Ruin in response to us activating our Belcher isn't too terrible, .

The bottom line is: it seems that the cards that annoy us the most are all artifacts, and fortunately we have a lot of artifact hate at our disposal in the SB, and can probably put in more, if necessary.

Luiggi

[Revvik]

I honestly don't think it's viable. JD's results are great of course, but he's still JDizzle, combo maniac.. Plus he got a grand total of THREE bye's during that Side Event..

Try building the deck - proxy it up and goldfish a few times.  Decks like these aren't NEARLY as hard as the hype would have you believe.  I've been playing a Tendrils list for some time now for fun, and it's not only much more consistent than I originally thought, but it doesn't usually die to Force of Will and it inflicts a fear on your opponent that makes them mulligan until they think they've found a critical piece of disruption (or end up with a hand consisting of Tolarian Academy, Thirst for Knowledge, and Mana Vault).

[49 Cents]

I did actually play the deck. It was some older version however, which used 2 Brainstorms and 2 Gambles.. That deck really died ALOT to FoW.. I'll sleeve up this build and try it out, But I'm sceptic about it..

The problem with Sphere is that every staxx deck runs at least 3 copies of them. So staxx really isn't a good matchup IMO.

I'd be much more worried about getting paired against Uba Stax, but even then not that much, since it's much more common to see Drain decks or other Workshop decks.

How is the Drain matchup then? I'd figure that if you don't win before they have Drain only, you are going to lose, am I right?

And how is the Gifts matchup? Gifts being able to go Land, Mox, Scroll for FoW seems devastating..

[Revvik]

Game one against Gifts, unless they've scouted intensely, they are NOT going to go Land, Mox, Scroll --> Force of Will.  And if you lose game two, you get to play first in game three.  Remember, that's IF.  Mana Drain decks are often just a turn too slow to effect your game.

I did a lot of my playtesting against 5c Stax, with four maindeck Sphere of Resistance.  I won a majority of the games, something like 60% - which is really good.  Keep in mind I'm talking the Tendrils list here, but the lists are very similar due to build and engine.  Sphere of Resistance can hose you pretty well - you'd have to mull into one of your two lands (three in the case of Tendrils), which basically means first turn Sphere of Resistance with you on the draw can be a loss.  Belcher has an improved percentage due to Elvish Spirit Guides, though.

I think the most important thing to remember with these decks is that single card solutions that aren't Trinisphere aren't always enough.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

When playing Gifts, I'm something like 3-0 matches vs. belcher. game 1 is a toss up. Postboard, Pithing needle WRECKS belcher. Assuming you go to game 3, gifts will mull into FoW or it can just merchant scroll---> force on their turn. I'm not too impressed with belcher. In all my experiences playing against belcher, they only play turn 1 belcher with 3 permanent mana on the board something like 30-40 percent of the time. Drain will lose it's fair share of games based on retarded belcher draws, but i don't think it's consistent enough to take to a huge tourney (just look, whens the last time belcher T8ed at a SCG?).

-Bob

[Revvik]

When was the last time it was played by a serious player?  And no, I'm NOT up to the task.  That's the thing - I think I just have better statistical odds with a deck known to be more stable.  At least, for the time being.

[Luiggi]

From my (limited) testing against Control Slaver and Gifts I've found Game 1 to be in Belcher's favor, barring extremely sub-par draws on our part. Belcher just has a lot of ways of getting its signature artifact into play on turn 1, often leading with a Duress to clear the way. All the acceleration makes that possible and likely, again barring a really bad hand. The other thing is that we have access to 4 Goblin Welders, should they counter our Belcher, and Welders are oftentimes really hard for decks like CS or Gifts to deal with, as well as opposing Stax decks.

I'd forgotten about Pithing Needle, that can really give you a headache, but again, we have artifact hate and we have Welders to weld them out (unless they somehow get 2 Needles into play). Additionally we can run 1 Tendrils of Agony to board in against decks that will bring Needles in against us, so as to have an alternate win plan.
I really don't see Belcher getting any more hosed than other decks by the cards commonly appearing in sideboards. Pithing Needle is annoying to many decks, as are things like Sphere of Resistance and Chalice. The question is: is there any reason to be more afraid of those cards with this deck than with any other deck, given how fast we can win if those cards don't show up or are drawn too late?

Luiggi

[rvs]

Not playing Blue in the deck is a mistake. It can just lead to too much insanity with brainstorms, ancestral and timetwister in your deck. You don't need 4 goblin welders.

[Komatteru]

Two words for Drain and Pithing Needle: Joblin Welder.

I won a round at Vroman's through first turn Needle all three games.

Plus he got a grand total of THREE bye's during that Side Event..

Only two and a half.   I'm also not sure about that Rack and Ruin any more.  I might have games mixed up.  I might have lost game 1, and then won game 2 in spite of the R&R.  I remember thinking it was a really savage play, but then thinking afterwards that it didn't matter that much.  My memory is fuzzy, but now that I think really hard about it, I think I had a Xantid Swarm down (I recall that the R&R nuked my Emerald and Lotus), so I ended up building back up after some turns and winning that game (then I lost game 1 instead).  The R&R drained my opponent's hand pretty good, as he played 3 Moxes a land, and the R&R.  This is the problem with writing reports like two weeks after the event, and not taking notes at all.


Also, relying on Brainstorm is a really bad idea these days.

[bebe]

I ran this deck at the first Ontario Vintage Championships when Belcher was first legal. At the time no one was playing it much anywhere as the meta was dominated by Fish, Hulk Smash and Stax with some Dragon thrown in. It has a few problems. First, there still are Null Rods and Pithing Needles about. I lost to a fish deck that way. It ran both Chalice and Rods, BTW. Fow hurts as well. I had a Land Grant FoWed and stalled in a game against U/w. That does not even take into account my matchup against Staxx which was quickly over thanks to Spheres. Yes, the deck is explosive. I did manage turn one and two wins. I even had some secret tech to handle what I presumed the hate would be out there. I believe I wrote a short report on it a year ago or so. JDizzle's build is very close to what I ran other than a few living wishes that brought in some help from the sideboard ( these were golden) as I went both for land ( academy or bayou) and creatures ( xantid or fourth welder). I really enjoyed playing the deck and it is certainly conceivable to win big with it but it is equally likely to be hated out. The problem is that this deck has only one route to victory and is really not that resistance despite the Welders  which people wish up their boparded BEBs for - oh yes, forgot to mention that game.
The following Vintage I ran Mask, BTW, and managed to top eightwith the best swiss result - 5-0-1. This should tell you something. The meta today is worse for this deck not better. I would pick up Dragon again if I wanted to play a decent combo deck with a chance to win now.

[Luiggi]

You don't need 4 goblin welders.

Don't you think the current metagame makes them great? Plus, with Null Rods, Chalices and Pithing Needles out there, you need to have an answer, and Welder not only answers those cards but allows you to recur your countered/destroyed Belchers... What they make the deck lose in terms of explosiveness if you're trying to win on turn 1 they more than make up for with versatility.

JD: would Rack and Ruin be something decent for this deck to run in the SB, instead of some of the artifact hate we already have? The Red shouldn't be a problem, and getting a 2-for-1 is pretty tempting. The 3cc might hurt, however. Also, what's the story behind calling them "Joblins", ?

Luiggi

[Revvik]

Deconstruct.  2G - Destroy target artifact.  Then add GGG to your mana pool.
Is this better than Rack and Ruin?  All you really want to worry about is cards that hamper your ability to produce mana, and then once you've done that, this also produces mana to boot.

[Luiggi]

The main problem with Deconstruct is that it's a sorcery, I guess, but yeah, I can certainly see its usefulness. The question is, if it's that useful then why is there only 1 copy in the SB?

Luiggi

[Revvik]

Not my build?  I also don't believe it's the best thing against Sphere of Resistance.  It sucks against Tangle Wire.  It was best against Trinisphere, if you already had 3 mana in play (I realize that statement is ludicrous).

[Luiggi]

I agree, which is why I think there might be better options. Oxidize is the most mana-efficient, which is why there's one in the maindeck.

Anyone else have tournament experience with the deck and care to chime in?

EDIT: I just checked the Tournament Forum, and this build placed 3rd at the latest Karlsruhe tournament:

3. Tobias Schein
2-Land Belcher

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Grim Monolith
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Memory Jar
3 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Land Grant
2 Living Wish
1 Channel
4 Tinder Wall
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Wheel of Fortune
3 Goblin Welder
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Sideboard:
3 Oxidize
1 Echoing Truth
1 Goblin Welder
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Gilded Drake
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 City of Brass
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Viridian Shaman

What I find interesting is that he's running the full Blue component (Ancestral Recall, Mystical Tutor, Tinker, Timetwister, Windfall and even 3 Brainstorms), he swapped the Taiga for a Tropical Island, but he still runs 3 Goblin Welders. I'm not incredibly sold on the Living Wishes (I think they're slow), but I guess the Blue splash is at least viable. Thoughts on this build?

Luiggi

[rvs]

Don't you think the current metagame makes them great? Plus, with Null Rods, Chalices and Pithing Needles out there, you need to have an answer, and Welder not only answers those cards but allows you to recur your countered/destroyed Belchers... What they make the deck lose in terms of explosiveness if you're trying to win on turn 1 they more than make up for with versatility.

Welders are too slow, and I doubt you will seldom win the game by actually welding out one of the cards you name. Any good deck/player will have put the game way behind you by then.
How is brainstorm bad right now JD? Brainstorm is never bad. Brainstorm is goddamn ridiculous in this deck, just because of all the possible gas you can have on top of your deck (which is also the reason I hate to run the card. It makes mulligan decisions really difficult if you draw 1). Also, Red doesn't add anything other than play Goblin Welder, while Blue adds true bombs. I think Xantid Swarm is a much more useful card to run than Goblin Welder. Who plays Null Rod anyway? It's a bad card, and any deck sporting it is a bad deck. Pitching Needle isn't widely accepted yet, afaik, so I don't think that is that much of an issue, at least not game 1. Chalice is a problem-card, but it's also really difficult for an opponent to play it correctly, since both 0 and 1 could be correct, it just depends on which mana sources your hand consists of at that point.
I do not like Oxidize as a solution to problem artifacts exactly for the reason that about 70% of the time the artifact you want to deal with is Chalice, and chalice=1 is a very strong play against you.
I know Living Wish is not the best card in the deck, and it is rather slow, but it adds versality in that it improves your shaky manabase, since you can just get an Ancient Tomb or Gemstone Mine if you need it. Another really strong card in our testing has been Gilded Drake, simply to deal with fast Tinkers and whatnot, which happens more often against MD Gifts than you think.

In any case, it is really easy to get Red mana in the deck without running Taiga, so that is not really an argument to include Taiga over Tropical, and please do not tell me that Timetwister, Ancestral and Tinker aren't totally insane in the deck. I could never imagine playing this deck without running those.

[Luiggi]

rvs: I definitely see your points. What changes would you make to JDizzle's decklist in order to add Blue? If I get a solid-looking decklist I can test it out and see if the Blue adds that much to the deck...

One thing, though:

Welders are too slow, and I doubt you will seldom win the game by actually welding out one of the cards you name. Any good deck/player will have put the game way behind you by then.

Hate cards aren't free, so the time/mana/digging they spend trying to find them and put them into play also gives us time to go off, and we're not exactly a slow deck, . It could also give us time to get a Welder into play to deal with their hate. With the above statement it's like you're assuming that they'll be able to execute their plan perfectly while simultaneously get all their hate into play before we do anything major, whereas that's just not true. Being able to win on turns 1-2 severely limits the effectiveness of their hate, unless they can get it into play ASAP, so in many games all their hate might not even matter. We always have the right threats, but they might not always have the right answers.

Luiggi

[Komatteru]

Storm combo has issues because it relies too much on Brainstorm.  That makes it get utterly ripped to shreds by Chalice for 1.

[Luiggi]

Belcher still gets pretty annoyed by a Chalice for 1 without Brainstorms, since it has Welders, Dark Ritual, Tinder Wall, Chromatic Spheres, Duress, etc. If we pulled Welders, like rvs suggested, and added Brainstorms in those slots we'd still end up with the same number of 1cc spells. I dunno, I'm not immediately sold on the Blue, but I'll certainly try it out and see what my results are...

Luiggi

[cophos]

I've tested this build a bit and wasn't that excited. It pretty much rolls over to well-timed disruption. ( I know, we have Welder and stuff, but still. ) If one really wants to play "fast" combo I'd still suggest deathlong/meandeath. It just feels like a better deck, especially right now, after the release of Pithing Needle.

[policehq]

Pentad Prisms are SO much better than Chromatic Spheres because it is a 1/1 ratio instead of 2/1, even when you have Goblin Welder and can use Chromatic Sphere as an extra draw. It makes Timetwister and Ancestral Recall easily playable in the deck. I don't think Brainstorms are especially better than other 1cc cards like Gamble and/or Spoils of the Vault.

[Whatever Works]

I think it is important to state that this deck is not JD's... Its Ray Robilliards... The list JD took to gencon was the list Robilliard has been playing for months (maybe with a change or 2), but it is still Iamfishman's creation (Which JDizzle will readily admit)...

JDizzle is an incredible combo player and I am not taking anything away from him, but credit should be given where credit is due, and I will give credit to JD for being an extremely good player (who really should use his skills on good decks that I am sure his team has thrown at him, but lacked the required # of dark Rituals to be deamed healthy).

Kyle L.

[Luiggi]

Oh, totally. I didn't mean to disrespect Ray by not giving him credit. I posted JD's decklist just because it's likely that more people were immediately familiar with it from reading his GenCon report. I'd be really interested in hearing what Ray has to say about the state of Belcher, if he feels like posting in this thread.

Luiggi

[cophos]

K, I consider playing this pile this weekend at a 5 Proxy tournament. I really like long.dec and my winning percentage shouldn't be to bad either but at the moment I just do not have enough time to practise well and it feels like I'm sometimes not in total control over the things which happen with long.dec so I'll probably decide to play belcher this time. The metagame will be: a fair amount of slaver and gifts, a fair amount of fish (u/w, u/g, chalice or rod) and some random decks like combo, FCG, Stax et cetera. What would your suggestions (Sideboard construction, boarding plans,) be for a metagame like mine? The sideboard posted before seems pretty decent, but the deck certainly has its vulnerabilities.

[Purple Hat]

if I was expecting the meta you described I wouldn't play belcher.  a good control player will give you problems, chalice at 0 or 1 will give you problems as will null rod, stax will wreck you when it plays first.  when you add to all that the fact that sometimes combo loses to itself it looks really nasty.  as much as I like the concept of belcher and the aggressive mentality of the deck I just don't think it's a good idea right now.  chalice is everywhere, some decks play rods, some decks play rods and chalices, and a well timed/placed counter can wreck your day sometimes. good players/decks can play around or through the counters but when you add in all the other hate it just looks like you're gonna be fighting an uphill battle all day.


Hale

[cophos]

if I was expecting the meta you described I wouldn't play belcher.  a good control player will give you problems, chalice at 0 or 1 will give you problems as will null rod, stax will wreck you when it plays first.  when you add to all that the fact that sometimes combo loses to itself it looks really nasty.  as much as I like the concept of belcher and the aggressive mentality of the deck I just don't think it's a good idea right now.  chalice is everywhere, some decks play rods, some decks play rods and chalices, and a well timed/placed counter can wreck your day sometimes. good players/decks can play around or through the counters but when you add in all the other hate it just looks like you're gonna be fighting an uphill battle all day.

Stax's not a walk in the park, but it's not really prerevelant in my metagame. 1-3 Stax Players is the most I expect. (It's not unwinnable though.)
Chalice and Rod are obvious problems, but there are tools to play around them. (Going first vs Chalice is tech.)
I'm still not sure about the control matches. With combo decks like long, I don't have severe problems playing through counters, simply because there's a high threat density and very powerful cards overall, but with belcher I sometimes just have hands consisting of mana and one business spell. As I mentioned before, the deck's pretty vulnerable to simple, plain counterspells. (The board and Welder's help, but one can't assume that the control opponent's just doing nothing.) Losing to prison elements or brokenness is ok, losing to control is not. (The "classic scheme" says control beats combo, but at least in my opinion, a good combo player should be able to beat control in a decent number of games. IMO combo is still a serious contender in vintage, but loosing to the deck and own stupidity is not tech though.)

[Komatteru]

Who plays Null Rod anyway? It's a bad card, and any deck sporting it is a bad deck.

Well, Uba Stax does.  In fact, I think it's one of the strongest cards in the deck because no one is prepared for it anymore.  Living in the midwestern United States (3 hours from St. Louis, home of Vroman and his amazing creation, I might add), that deck shows up, since Vroman has won 2 Lotuses, a few moxes, and some dual lands in the past 6 months.  There have been at least 2 or 3 at every single tournament I've been too in the past 2 months.

I've tested this build a bit and wasn't that excited. It pretty much rolls over to well-timed disruption. ( I know, we have Welder and stuff, but still. ) If one really wants to play "fast" combo I'd still suggest deathlong/meandeath. It just feels like a better deck, especially right now, after the release of Pithing Needle.

Yeah, I've heard of that deck.  In fact, you might say I've written the book on that deck (outside of Steve's primers from last year, which came out about the time when I first started playing it).  There might be a reason I haven't played my signature deck in the past few tournments I've played in...

JDizzle is an incredible combo player and I am not taking anything away from him, but credit should be given where credit is due, and I will give credit to JD for being an extremely good player (who really should use his skills on good decks that I am sure his team has thrown at him, but lacked the required # of dark Rituals to be deamed healthy).

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=24633.0

That's right, bitches.

[Luiggi]

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=24633.0

That's right, bitches.

Nice! For all you nay-sayers out there, JDizzle does it again, ! I'm definitely looking forward to sitting down and reading that report as soon as Old School finishes playing.

The Tainted Pact has been working awesome for me. I'll definitely give the Living Wishes a try, since they give you versatility and let you deal with hate in Game 1. Again, congrats, and I'm sure I'll have more comments when I have a chance to read your report. Long live combo.

Luiggi