[Deck Discussion and Report] UR Stax

[Polynomial P]

A few months ago I toyed with the idea of putting Null Rod and Sphere of Resistance in the same deck. I was, however, playing CS at the time, didnt have the cards for the deck and so I just let it go. Three or so weeks ago I got my butt handed to me by Sphere of Resistance so I decided to pursue my deck idea. Here is the list I came up with, after a few vroman tweeks:

UR Stax

Mana:
5 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
3 Mountain
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volcanic Island
4 Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Tolarian Academy

Creatures
2 Duplicant
4 Welder
3 G-shaman
2 Solemn Simulacrum

The Lock
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
3 Null Rod
3 Crucible

Draw
1 Ancestral
4 Thoughtcast
1 Tinker

Sideboard
BEBs
Pyroblasts
lava darts
heretics
maze of iths
Duplicant

Some explanations: There are a total of 28 mana sources in this deck. I know that is a ton, but if you plan on putting out spheres and shutting off moxen you still want to be able to cast your spells. 28 seems about right, although occasionally you do get mana flooded.

The creature base overlaps with Uba Stax creatures on purpose, as the decks are pretty similar. The Gorilla shamans help to make your spheres better, like null rod. Solemns are great, making 2 permanents to sack to smokestack and replacing itself seems pretty good. Welders and Duplicants shouldnt need an explanation.

The artifact/lock pieces create the most restrictive mana denial that I know of. Play a first turn sphere, let the opponent play a mox or two, put out null rod or gorilla shaman. The deck has more permanents than any deck aside from Uba stax.

I then decided to fill in the last 6 cards with blue. I felt the deck sort of ran out of gas after dumping its hand on the first two turns. So with blue I could get a bit of card advantage to find a few lock pieces or permanents to sack to smokestack late game. Thoughtcast seemed perfect in this role. It cancels out with sphere of resistance, and with this many artifacts in the deck it usually only costs 2 or 3. Plus you get the "WTF, Thoughtcast?" out of your opponents as you accelerate your lock.

So to the tournament report is as follows, but I didn’t take very good notes:
@ the ICON in Springfield, Illinois on 9/10/05:

Rd. 1 Josh Roughly 5c Dragon
I won 2-0.

Game 1.
I luck out with 1st turn Trinisphere, waste a land, then tinker for Crucible. That is why you shouldnt play a 5c base. He concedes after a few bazaar activations finding him no land that stays in play.

Game 2.
He goes first, plays a land and a mox. I waste 2 of his lands and then find a Crucible. He concedes again after I throw down some more lock pieces.

Round 2 Matt Endress, playing GWS chalice Oath
I won 2-0

Game 1
I go first and drop a sphere. He gets an oath after a few turns while I get a smokestack and a token. He Oaths up akroma, but I permanent race him and stabilize at like 1 life. He is left with nothing while I have 2x Resistor and eventually get some lands and more lock pieces to seal the deal. I think I played thoughtcast during this game, getting a puzzled look from Matt.

Game 2.
I play two waste effects and two spheres. Things go downhill for him from there.

Round 3 Robert Vroman playing Uba Stax.
I playtest against vroman constantly, and we have a very similar structure to our decks and therefore have many dead cards in this matchup.
I won 2-0

You can read Vroman’s reports, but I felt like I had control of the entire match.

Round 4 Brian Fisher playing GWS Workshop Slavery
I lose 2-1

Game 1
I open with trinisphere and get a crucible and a wasteland. The only thing bad is that I only see a fetchland and a Mox emerald, so I think he is playing Oath.

Game 2
I sideboard for Oath and end up with 3 sideboard cards in my opening hand. He drops a workshop and crucible first turn and follows it up with much savagery.

Game 3
I keep a reasonable hand, but never find a red source. This was the only time that my deck failed on me.

Round 5 Draw with Jim Erlinger.

Quarterfinals:
Brian Fisher again.
Game 1
I don’t remember this game, but I went wire to wire with the win. I never took damage I dont think the game was ever in doubt.

Game 2
I get a lot out including a Smokestack. However, it is late and I haven’t been playing Stax for a long time and forget to put a counter on smokestack. The two extra permanents he had from my error allows him to play and activate mindslaver. I punted BIG TIME.

Game 3
He mulls to 4 and keeps a hand of Gilded lotus, Two workshops and something else. I explode with a Viashino heretic first turn. I also get out an early smokestack. When I go to destroy his Gilded lotus, he rack and ruins my two artifacts. He then plays duplicant on heretic. I counter with two welders and more artifacts. He topdecks rack and ruin again, playing another gilded lotus leaving me with no artifacts to weld. He plays a pentavus and makes some guys, plays tolarian academy and topdecks mindslaver while I have two active welders and his pentavus in the yard. Brian got found the card that would do the most damage to me every turn for 5 turns.


Overall, the deck is solid but could have some room for improvement. I’d like to hear your thoughts on the deck.

Special thanks goes out to Vroman and the rest of Team Ogre.


Note to moderators: Move this to where it woud be most appropriate.

[Disburden]

I saw Vroman's report andwas glad to find this in the open forum for me to read because I was excited reading about your list in the tournament forum.

I was wondering how you felt about Thoughtcast as a card drawer over Thirst. Does this work out for you a lot more than thirst did in testing, or is this just something to turn heads since it isn't used as often as thirst is in Stax?

I can see Thoughtcas being brutal if you lay a lot of pieces down, but in an opening hand can't it sometimes suck over Thirst?

I'm just wondering how you feel abouit it.  I like the list.

[Polynomial P]

If you are going to cast Thirst on your opening hand, you will need at least a land and mana crypt, but more likely two moxes. At that point thoughtcast and thrist end up costing you the same. Later in the game, if you have a sphere or two out  (which happened a lot) thirst will be costing you 4 non-workshop mana (sometimes with moxen shut off because of null rod) while thoughtcast will cost you 2 at the same time.

During my matches i think i cast thoughtcast around 3 times and every time I cast it, it cost me less than or equal to what TFK would cost. During testing, most of the time that I cast thoughtcast I would not be able to cast TFK. 

Personally, I think thoughtcast is really good in this deck and it works synergisticly with sphere of resistance and null rod. I will admit it is probably the weakest card in the deck and if you want to replace it, please do so.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

The problem with thoughtcast is that it's a HUGE drain target. It's sorcery speed means if you don't have more than 2 mana after casting it, a good drain player will just drain (because most-likely, you won't be able to cast a lock piece). Unlike AC/DC, which also abuses thoughtcast, you have no way of protecting it. Personally, I hate draw in stax, but it seems to me thirst is still the best drawer in that deck. You can bait bad players with it on EOT to play around drain, plus it works awesome with welders.

It just seems to me thoughtcast is counter-intuitive in a deck that tries to play around drain. At one point you need to question if thoughtcast is better than thirst or bazaar.

Once you cut the thoughtcast, I see no reason to run 2 colors, making it pretty much uba stax. Uba stax abuses welders and rod more efficiently. If you really like the idea of sphere of resistance and null rod, why not try uba stax w/ spheres? (I know vroman tried it and disliked it)

Also, not to sound mean, but the deck looks unfocused. Sphere of resistance and an abundance of 4cc artifacts (Solemn, stax, dups) means a heavy reliance on Workshop, which isn't good. Plus, since you run tinker, there's almost NO reason you shouldn't be playing a titan/trisk. Yes, I know it sucks balls with null rod, but with so many welders running around, it may not be a bad call.

-Bob

[Rapalaman1]

I have been playing 2x Null Rod in 5 Color Enchantment Stax lately and it has been working out fantastically. I have not been too fond of Sphere for some time in the deck so I dropped the 3 main for 2 Null Rod and some other metagame spot. I basically put the Null Rods in there because I was sick of losing to Pentavus, but it has proven to be just as effective as a mana denial spell as Sphere ever was. Plus not many people expect it in Stax so it gives you a better chance game 1 against most decks in the field right now.
Also, I agree with Bob in the sence that Thoughtcast is inferior to Thirst for Knowledge if nothing else because it's sorcery speed to Thirsts instant speed. And I also agree you should be playing at least 1 Trisk and 1 Sundering Titan. My Suggestion would be
-4 Thoughtcast
-1 Duplicant
+3 Thirst for Knowledge
+1 Triskelion
+1 Sundering Titan

[vroman]

@clown
I disagree that this is a 'workshop reliant' deck, moreso than others in the archetype. if you look closely, the mana curve is actually fairly low for a shop deck. 2xduplicants are the only big artifacts in the deck, and the 4 drops are kept to a minimum. the lack of main welder removal might be a weakness, but then opp welder is not as big a problem for this deck as it is for me. thoughcast is a solid draw engine, and jacobs reasoning for run it over TFK is logical. drain is a problem obv, but since there are fewer huge fatties to drain, this evens out.

[NWI Team_Zilla]

No matter how good Triskellion would be in this deck, Null Rod shuts it down automatically so forget about it.  

The deck reminds me of the older stax builds though and I suppose that's what I like about this one.  I wish the Draw/Tutor was a little better, but the only thing that crossed my mind was using Grafted Skullcap like the old stax decks, or the new Bottled Cloister(basically same idea) from the Ravnica spoiler.

I would so love to add Karn to this deck if WotC would errata him to say:"Not effected by Null Rod," but it is safe to say WotC hates me (Don't worry, so does God).  

Just a couple suggestions.

[Polynomial P]

@Clown. I disagree with this deck being unfocused. It is committed to making thier entire deck uncastable by 1) limiting their resources and 2) raising the casting cost of their spells. The deck is reliant on MWS, but many games were won without seeing a Workshop. The curve, as vroman stated, is actually pretty low for a MWS deck.

As far as being succeptable to drain, play multiple threats a turn and dont play thoughtcast when they have double blue open. Its not that difficult to dodge drain, especially if you throw spheres and smokestacks at them. If they sit around waiting to drain something, this deck will shut them down relatively quickly.

@ NWI team zilla.

I have looked at bottled cloister from ravnica, but havent tested it out yet. It does look promising though. And i think most stax players would like Karn to read "not affected by Null Rod".

[NWI Team_Zilla]

Yeah, but God doesn't hate most stax players, he only hates me---and Allah(or maybe it was Buddha).

P.S. No offense to Christians, Muslims, and Buddhas.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Here's how I see it.

5c stax runs 4 smokestacks, 1 karn and MAYBE one trisk (meta dependant). It also runs crop rotation/demonic/vamp. to find MWS, which is huge.

Uba Stax runs 4 stax, 2 solemn, 3 uba mask, 2 duplicant. It by-passes this by abusing the fuck out of welder/bazaar.

ChangStax runs 4 stax, 1 titan, 1 karn, 1 trisk. It also runs the same tutors and thirst/welder.

UR stax runs 4 stax, 2 duplicant, 2 solemn, 4 thoughtcast (While it will never cost more than, say 3, it's a huge drain target). It also runs welder but no apparant way of abusing it. Not even tangle wire.

Also, drain decks CAN afford to sit around and randomly drain a thoughtcast. If there are no threats on the board (and by threats, I really mean crucible/strip or stack), all a drain deck has to do is drain a thoughtcast and win on it's next turn. Gifts for U and still having 2 colorless is good I hear. paying 1 for trisk/slaver is also somewhat good. As for "just play multiple threats," it's much more complicated thatn that. When drain combo decks are running MD rack and ruins/welders/shamans or essentially 7 bounce spells (4 scroll, 1 hurkyl's, 1 rebuild, 1 echoing truth), there's not alot they care about. About the only thing I can say is a must counter is smokestack or welder. And even then, welder is not nearly as devastating in this deck, as in uba stax.

My point about your deck looking unfocused is this: the point of running null rod/sphere in stax is Mana Denial. When 1/3 or more of the field is playing drain combo, running thoughtcast is counter-intuitive. It has no synergy with welder, and requires you spend atleast 2 mana on your mainphase, not to mention it's a HUGE drain target.

I don't quite understand why you aren't running chalice. It comes down just as fast and shuts off tinker. You are running 3 shamans, so the loss of rod shouldn't hurt that much.

Vroman: I'm surprised to hear even you say that the deck is not reliant on MWS. It has no way of dumping artifacts in the yard to abuse welder. Also, it's reliant on null rod/sphere, which BOTH essentially shut off moxes. Sphere/rod/shaman is nice and all, but your lock is still stax/crucible, BOTH of which are MUCH better when you see MWS. You do have 7 turn 1 plays without moxes, but only 3 of them are even remotely threatening.

-Bob

[Klep]

Here's the card this deck really wants to be running: Ancient Tomb

You want Ancient Tomb perhaps even more than you want Workshop.  Tomb would increase the chances of being able to make strong first turn plays by decreasing the reliance on MWS (which is there; you desperately want at least 2 mana turn 1 to drop a lock piece).  Furthermore, it would allow you to easily run Thirst for Knowledge, which is an unqualified improvement over Thoughtcast.  You might have to sacrifice some of your color stability in order to accomodate the Tombs, but it will certainly be worth it.

I also agree with Clown of Tresserhorn that you really want to be running Chalices, probably over the Shamans.  The main purpose of Shaman in Type 1 has always been to eat artifact accelerants, but since you have Null Rods in the deck that makes him rather unnecessary, particularly whene there's another artifact that serves the same fundamental purpose.  I would probably try and test a list something like this:

Mana:
5 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Volcanic Island
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Tolarian Academy

Creatures
2 Duplicant
4 Welder

The Lock
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Null Rod
2 Crucible
3 Chalice of the Void

Draw
1 Ancestral
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Tinker

Duplicant probably isn't optimal, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that for now.  This list provides you with a much greater potential for early explosiveness, based more strongly on the artifacts you want to be playing.  It has 7 artifacts that have a strong chance of being played first turn which will deny your opponent his moxes, and which can be followed up with your lock pieces or a Thirst.  I strongly recommend you give this idea a spin.

[Polynomial P]

@ Clown,

If you see a turn one artifact mana and a land, you then have 15 turn 1 plays. If you only see a MWS, you then have 11 turn one plays.

I decided not to run chalice because it is significanltly worse on the draw, while null rod is good turn one or turn two and is harder to get rid of since many people are playing shaman right now. This is part of the reason I run so many G-shamans. Without running chalice, people can still play their moxes and sack to smokestack later in the game. My shamans put me ahead in the permanent race and eat opposing chalices too.

The welders in this deck are pretty weak, but are useful in stax mirrors and CS matchups and therefore will not replace them with less useful cards.

That being said, maybe thoughtcast should be replaced with thirst, but I urge people to test it out first. I also am not using thoughtcast early in the game because I usually have better things to play. Thoughtcast isnt usually cast till turn 4-5 once I have very little else to do with my mana.

[Liam-K]

Klep:

Stax plays the long game most of the time, and ancient tomb beats the living piss out of you.  This is a problem, especially if you're getting unlucky with your mana crypt or someone is uncouth enough to use the attack phase.  I really feel happier with a life buffer against things that aren't slaver when I'm running stax, hell even sitting at 6 against gifts gives them a free win with tendrils.

I also get the feeling uba stax has strategic superiority (especially bazaar) but I also see that it is probably more fragile.  Draw engines that don't own your hand are good.

[Klep]

Stax plays the long game most of the time, and ancient tomb beats the living piss out of you.  This is a problem, especially if you're getting unlucky with your mana crypt or someone is uncouth enough to use the attack phase.  I really feel happier with a life buffer against things that aren't slaver when I'm running stax, hell even sitting at 6 against gifts gives them a free win with tendrils.

In Type 1, the long game is turn 4.  Honestly, if someone is attacking your life total to the degree that tapping Tomb a couple of times is a serious issue, you've probably already lost the game.  No one says you have to tap the Tomb every turn.  Furthermore, with this deck you should have no problems keeping a deck from ramping any significant storm whatsoever.  The whole point is to severely constrict your opponent's mana resources in the first place.  As far as Crypt goes, that's the risk of running Crypt, not Tomb, and it isn't sufficient justification not to run either.  Besides, you have at least 8 ways to get rid of it between Smokestacks and Welders.

[Polynomial P]

Klep, Tomb would wreck you against goblins or fish. It is absolutely terrible against either, especially if you take out the chump blockers in Shaman and Solemn. Most of the time life totals do not matter, but it does matter against aggro or aggro-control. Maybe using Tomb as a 2 of would be acceptable.

[Jacob Orlove]

Running 4 Tombs is probably excessive, because it will give you hands where you have to rely on two of them to play your spells. Two or possibly three depending on the metagame is probably a better call.

[Klep]

I'll also concede that running all 4 Tombs may be unecessary, but that's what testing is for.  I'm still quite convinced that this deck very much wants Ancient Tomb.  If I were to test it, I would start with 4 Tombs and only cut some if it actually turned out to be problematic.  My suspicion is that it wouldn't be as disastrous as you seem to think it would be.

[PucktheCat]

Good work Jacob.  If I ever emerge from my subterranean legal dungeon I will try to give you a run for your money.  Most likely you will destroy me.

Re Ancient Tomb:  I have no idea whether it belongs in this deck or not, but I think it is embarrassing that the Vintage community as a whole has failed to break it in some deck.

Leo

[warble]

You can't afford to run Tomb.  It is a liability in a matchup against any aggro, it does not provide the necessary colored mana, and does not provide mana acceleration acceptable to a deck that has any colored mana (because of the necessity of running an adequate number of colored lands+fetchlands).  The one play you are hoping for (tomb+chalice for one) isn't an issue because you already have so many mana sources for acceleration it's much prefferable to play mox+mountain+chalice for one even if it does cost you an extra card (this is stax, so an extra permanent doesn't hurt).  If we looked at the probability of chalice and no acceleration being drawn AND ancient tomb being in your deck and drawn coupled with you having no colored play on turn 1 I believe it would be a slim one.  Do you really want to restrict your turn 1 play to colorless mana when you are running welders and a shaman?  I think NOT.

I do think I would go for tangle wire over thoughtcast.  If you have enough permanents to cast thoughtcast, you have enough to win with tangle wire resolved as well as providing a more versatile threat base.

[Klep]

You can't afford to run Tomb.  It is a liability in a matchup against any aggro, it does not provide the necessary colored mana, and does not provide mana acceleration acceptable to a deck that has any colored mana (because of the necessity of running an adequate number of colored lands+fetchlands).

Anything that costs life is a liability against aggro.  The question is whether the benefits you will reap for paying the life outweigh the costs.  With Tomb in this deck, they do.  Tomb increases your consistency, and allows you to cast the spells you really want to cast (any artifact, Thirst) on turn 1 that much more frequently.  Furthermore, this deck doesn't need much colored mana. It needs a Volcanic Island and it's good.  This deck is rarely going to want or need to cast more than 1 colored spell per turn, especially my proposed list.

The one play you are hoping for (tomb+chalice for one) isn't an issue because you already have so many mana sources for acceleration it's much prefferable to play mox+mountain+chalice for one even if it does cost you an extra card (this is stax, so an extra permanent doesn't hurt).  If we looked at the probability of chalice and no acceleration being drawn AND ancient tomb being in your deck and drawn coupled with you having no colored play on turn 1 I believe it would be a slim one.  Do you really want to restrict your turn 1 play to colorless mana when you are running welders and a shaman?  I think NOT.

The plays I am hoping for are turn one Sphere, turn one Chalice, turn one Null Rod, turn one Crucible, turn one Smokestack, turn one Trinisphere, or turn one Thirst for Knowledge.  The potential for each of those plays is actually substantially increased by the inclusion of Tomb, though admiteddly less so for the things that cost 2.  You'll also notice that my proposed list does not include Shaman, as he performs exactly the same role as Null Rod and is less versatile than Chalice.

I do think I would go for tangle wire over thoughtcast.  If you have enough permanents to cast thoughtcast, you have enough to win with tangle wire resolved as well as providing a more versatile threat base.

If you cut Thoughtcast for another lock piece, you have removed the deck's only source of draw and have consigned it to relying on topdecks.  Tangle Wire is not enough to justify that.

[tradewhore]

I think you should try staff of Domination. I have placed them into my deck and they work wonders with 2 artifacts and a metalworker in play.

[Jacob Orlove]

I think you should try staff of Domination. I have placed them into my deck and they work wonders with 2 artifacts and a metalworker in play.

1. He doesn't run Metalworker.
2. He DOES run Null Rod.

[Liam-K]

Mox monkey does not perform the same role as null rod or chalice.  He does perform those roles, but he also makes smokestack ridiculous by hitting play and nuking 3 permanents, makes welder weld ANYTHING out for 1, and is capable of destroying Crucible if you have a solemn going, an academy, or possibly even just a lot of moxes.  He is a synergy card.

[Polynomial P]

Mox monkey does not perform the same role as null rod or chalice.  He does perform those roles, but he also makes smokestack ridiculous by hitting play and nuking 3 permanents, makes welder weld ANYTHING out for 1, and is capable of destroying Crucible if you have a solemn going, an academy, or possibly even just a lot of moxes.  He is a synergy card.

Quoted for truthery. Null rod and mox monkey perform overlapping roles, but they both do things the other is incapable of. Also, when is redundancy a bad thing in a stax deck. With the majority of the deck being 3- or 4-ofs the hands you get are pretty consistant.

Klep, I am concerned that your list will make any sort of aggro matchup unwinnable. I will trade a mox monkey with a goblin lackey all day long. Solemns get you a land, and a 2/2 blocker, and a card if it dies. The loss of blockers coupled with the addition of Tomb will make the matchup unwinnable. If you are going to add Tombs, you really need to leave some creatures in there.

I should break down and test out TFK in the place of thoughtcast, but I have been busy with my job this past week.

[Moxlotus]

Klep, I am concerned that your list will make any sort of aggro matchup unwinnable.

Aggro is played in Vintage?  Seems that Stax, combo, and control are 95%+ of the metagame.  And it seems that Stax, combo, and control make up 99% of top 8 slots recently.

[Klep]

Quoted for truthery. Null rod and mox monkey perform overlapping roles, but they both do things the other is incapable of. Also, when is redundancy a bad thing in a stax deck. With the majority of the deck being 3- or 4-ofs the hands you get are pretty consistant.

Klep, I am concerned that your list will make any sort of aggro matchup unwinnable. I will trade a mox monkey with a goblin lackey all day long.

It's true I missed a bunch of the synergies Shaman adds to the deck, and I now think that he may actually be a better fit than Chalice.  My list was just a starting point anyway, mostly to get people talking about Ancient Tomb.  Is aggro really that much of a concern for you in your meta?  I know Goblins at least is not something I would be worried about playing in an SCG-sized event.  Even Fish isn't seeing a lot of play right now.

[Liam-K]

Chalice is too strong in a shop deck to cut, particularly one like stax that can play around chalice 2 and chalice 3 MUCH more easily than anything else out there.  2 is a stronger setting in uba stax, but even still turning off (in order of overall relevance) drain, echoing truth, merchant scroll, oath, or yawgwill, tinker, TFK, rebuild is just too brutal to deny yourself, especially since if for some reason it gets in your way you can weld/mox monkey it.  This is the sort of thing stax needs, as spoking someone's engine removes their plan B.  If they lose board control, they HAVE to set up an I win hand.

[trinisphere]

Chalice is not that impressive in a stax deck running sphere of resistance because chalice for two hoses part of your strategy. Yes, "if" you have a welder you can play around it but who is to say that the welder will resolve or remain on the board. In U/R and five color stax chalice should be in the board as a three of. Conversely, in uba stax, chalice is used as a replacement for the mana denial sphere of resistance provides.

[Polynomial P]

Good post 3-sphere and welcome to TMD. In nearly all my testing games with UR stax I did not miss Chalice. Occasionally chalice is fantastic, but most of the time not having chalice doesnt matter. I would consider putting 3 chalice in the side, but there is the matter of how to adjust the sideboard.

The worst matchup with this deck is Oath, which sees some play in my area. I suppose I could go all in and just try to prevent Oath from resolving and take out some Maze of Iths. Chalice would also be good against goblins, fish and some other random aggro stuff. Aggro doesnt see much play in Type I, but it is still out there and you have to beat it to get to the top tables.

[NastyNate]

There was a time when I wouldn't have even considered running a workshop deck without four Chalice MD, but I have been particularly under-enthusiastic about them in the current meta. It seems like every deck packs multiple answes to chalice at multiple casting costs. If a gorilla shaman slips through your defenses, it completely nullifies the benefits of playing with them at all. I have now reconsidered my stance upon CotV, and think that if they do not fit MD, why would you even want them in the SB?