[Deck and Primer] Hounds 'R Us

[Lunar]

Lastly, bazaar/squee is amazing

quoted for truthery!


Ok, so as to your last comments...

If this deck is designed as a bazaar/control deck with a major major emphasis on the control elements (meaning you want to counter and deed everything first, then drop a threat and go to town) have you considered tweaking the configuration of creatures at all? Rather than all the hounds, has dropping down to just the vampires and then adding tinker/collosus (since collosus has nice synergy with the creature loving hounds and bazaar as well so as not to be stuck in your hand) to the MD?  This would free up a spot or two (just 1 I suppose if you also add mystical, which im not sure you would need to with all the current draw availible) this could free up space to make this even more controlish...just a thought I figured id run by you to see if you already tried...much like MonoU or Keeper decks run only a very small handful of wins, could this deck as well cut back down?

@ Xman...

heh, suprise and neatness factor are never a problem for the one guy who is truly turning Cerebral Assasin into an art form, heh (well Nataz is great with the deck too I hear, but he tends to stick with more traditional builds) I can still honostly say that Cerebral Assasin is the most fun deck ever put together, and it always draws some cool comments...

The only problem I have with your theory of brining a suprise deck is that it is only a suprise for so long...take CA for example, the hadley boys were doing all sorts of good with the deck, and seemed to be almost unstoppable with it, until of course they released it on here and then lost interest in it (I guess they did anyways, I havnt heard a peep from any of them for a while)  I also happen to play against other players who take the time to read through all the garbage and actually take note of something interesting...it would be folly to assume that I would hold a suprise factor over a handful of the players in my area since they have no doubt taken notice of any thread I post in and would probably be unfazed by anything I threw at them (it could work in the first round of a tourney I guess against them, but once word got out the suprise thing would be a moot point...ie no suprise)

The standard thinking is that you want to play the best deck at all times if you actually want to win a tournament right?  Perhaps testing will show this to actually stand up against the full brunt of quality Stax and CS and Gifts players...perhaps not.

Any how, the deck is interesting, and might make for an interesting new inclusion to the meta...keep up the work, we always need more people innovating.

[Xman]

We actually never tried the tinker -> DsC in Hounds.  Never was something that we felt woudl fit the flair of the deck, but I don't see any reason why it couldn't work.  I realize suprise goes a long way, and Peter or myself have played this at every mox tournament in the past year to 15 months (It was always released as a Dragon build by TO's) and always did realy well with it.  I felt it was time to release this.  We designed it on a hunch the meta would shift the correct direction, which it did.  I kept trying to get to SCG or Waterbury or something, but living down in AZ, not having enoughh cash or time off to travel, put a damper on plans to release it in a major venue where it would get a lot of attention.  However, We have won a few moxen with it, and it continues to do amazing things.

Anyway, I ahve to run back to work.  I will add more later.

[Dralock]

Lastly, bazaar/squee is amazing

quoted for truthery!


Ok, so as to your last comments...

If this deck is designed as a bazaar/control deck with a major major emphasis on the control elements (meaning you want to counter and deed everything first, then drop a threat and go to town) have you considered tweaking the configuration of creatures at all? Rather than all the hounds, has dropping down to just the vampires and then adding tinker/collosus (since collosus has nice synergy with the creature loving hounds and bazaar as well so as not to be stuck in your hand) to the MD?  This would free up a spot or two (just 1 I suppose if you also add mystical, which im not sure you would need to with all the current draw availible) this could free up space to make this even more controlish...just a thought I figured id run by you to see if you already tried...much like MonoU or Keeper decks run only a very small handful of wins, could this deck as well cut back down?

Quite simply put, after 9+ months of testing, wild mongels and vampire hounds are the best costed creatures that can abuse the crap out of squee. However, I have found that trimming the number down for more dig can up the ability to break the game. Peter's original list sported 4 deeds and 4 duress, as well as 8 creatures and circular logic. Exton, myself and Simone McLeoud (Nyphe by those that know him) have since revised the deck countless times and each time the list becomes bluer and bluer. Why? Because it works better that way of course! Seriously though, we were unable to play this deck in 2004 due to the popularity of back2basics (the original list sported bayou as well due to its blacker color dispersal) in BBS and the fact that it rolls over and dies to aggro prison (pre-restriction 5/3). Well, back2basics is gone and so is 5/3, so the auto-loss matches have been crossed off the list.

This year, team MeanDeck decided to publish yet another strong blue control deck (gifts), this time though many things actually helped the meta instead of hating it. First off, mana denial is no longer a strategy. Second, many counters have been left behind to pick up card advantage slots and recursion / more mana. Taking a page from the play strategy, and seeing as this deck can slip under mana drain very easily, 2005 is the year that hounds can shine in the presence of the "popular deck build spree".

What does this take from gifts to help out with the control/aggro element? Well, the gameplan of walking twice for the win is solid, as is the inclusion of a tutor that gives you the enabler for the deck. Setting yourself up for ancestral-> walk -> will -> ancestral -> walk is my new gameplan with the deck, and if I happen to smash face on the way, then so be it. But I'll let my card choices to the talking.

The Control/Agro version that I have put together:

//Control
4x Force of Will
3x Mana Drain
3x Mana Leak
1x Echoing Truth
1x Pernicious Deed

//Win Conditions
4x Squee, Goblin Nabob
3x Wild Mongrel
2x Vampire Hounds
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Yawgmoth's Will

//Draw and tutors
4x Bazaar of Baghdad
3x Brainstorm
3x Deep Analysis
3x Intuition
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Merchant Scroll

//Mana
4x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
2x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
3x Island
7x SoLoMox
1x Library of Alexandria

I have many games where wonder just isn't an issue, so I cut it. It can easily be put back in as the 61st card (yes, 61 cards is acceptable when you run will) if you need it or see a ton of oath. Mana Drain is amazing, but not absolutely necessary. Countering something in the first turn or two is absolutely necessary though, so a 3/3 split with leak is the best option I have come across.

With Library, dawing 4 to 5 cards per turn is a reality. With 4 squee in your deck, being able to abuse library as much as possible is also a reality.

10 counters is quite enough. You will find deed, but if you don't like the prospect of only one, then you can cut a deep analysis. This list seems weak compared to the other one, but your card advantage is superior. As I said, a gifts-style kill is the idea, but you will find yourself beating down our opponent before getting there in more games than not.

[49 Cents]

My main question is; why would you play this over Leviat?

[madmanmike25]

"Why would you play this over leviat?"

"Why would you play this over Tog?"

"Why would you play this over Dragon?"

Wow, maybe because it is a different deck with a different concept??  Maybe because it is fun and is a serious contender?  Maybe because it doesnt roll over to graveyard hate(IN EVERY SIDEBOARD).  Maybe because this is type one and any deck with the 'good' cards can win? 

If you guys love dragon, tog, and leviat so much, please, by all means continue to play them religiously.  I am not knocking any of those decks at all.  But this is aggro-control, not combo control. 
Why not just everyone play Stax then or Slaver then since these decks seem to dominate the meta, and consistently win more so than dragon, tog or leviat.  OR.... pick your own reason for not playing this deck.  The choice is yours.

[xrobx]

Madmike and 49cent both have legitimate points.  Unfortunatly, when we assess a deck in type one, if it appears exquisitly close to another deck, or another deck running multiple of the same cards has shown past performance, we tend to lean towards a "tried and true" deck I guess you could say.  For example, I probably wouldn't have to convince you that playing a monoU deck, you'd want to run FoW over daze, correct?  And probably manadrain over counterspell, correct??  The same applies here but on a larger scale; we're replacing an entire deck with another deck so to speak.

I'm not dismissing your point, mike, about running a new, innovative type deck.  The problem here is that functionally, these decks do very similar things, and "archetypes" are just that; and for a reason.  They tend to be the more progressive of the builds, and tend to show alot of results in top 8s worldwide.  You do raise a solid point about playing an unexpected deck however, which should be in the back of every magic players mind.  Not necessarily a "new" deck, but usually you'll notice good players will play say, CS or Tog with revisions to the standard build.  This constitutes as the improvements/changes to the deck, for the specific meta.  Maybe these additional cards don't fall into the category of cards that everyone usually sideboards for.  Just a thought.

[Dralock]

My main question is; why would you play this over Leviat?

And my answer is already stated before in response to tog:

"Quite simply put, after 9+ months of testing, wild mongels and vampire hounds are the best costed creatures that can abuse the crap out of squee."

[Lunar]

I think the question there though would be that tog probably abuses EVERY card (beyond just squee) better than the other two...both have their pros and cons though...

[Godder]

There's no real reason not to play Tinker & DSC, since this is a deck that doesn't mind drawing a DSC, thanks to the many discard outlets.

[Lunar]

I would agree, if I were to run this I would have to at least drop probably two of the hounds or two mongrels to make room for tinker+DSC its just too good and gives the deck just one more super broken card option.

[Xman]

Tinker -> DsC is a beast, and it works in this deck.  However, you would rarely get it.  But it is an idea for this deck.

[Cr0v4x]

Hi, a couple of my thoughts regarding this deck:

1. I think that a Crop Rotation would be a good tutor for the Bazaar as the deck isn't really likely to create cardadvantage without it.

2. I'm not really convinced by the Drains in this deck and this is why i' support the idea of playing more Mana Leaks and a couple of Circular Logics. You might argue that the Logics aren't a good help in the beginning but the Drains aren't either. The normal play you want to see is Bazaar of Baghdad activate and drop a random mox or something like that. With such a play you can drain for the first time pretty much in round 3 and that's not really good.

[PipOC]

2. I'm not really convinced by the Drains in this deck and this is why i' support the idea of playing more Mana Leaks and a couple of Circular Logics. You might argue that the Logics aren't a good help in the beginning but the Drains aren't either. The normal play you want to see is Bazaar of Baghdad activate and drop a random mox or something like that. With such a play you can drain for the first time pretty much in round 3 and that's not really good.

But Mana drain will almost invariably be better than logic later, since it's not conditional, and the big plays you can make off drain.  Logic is rarely better, even when cast off a discard.

[Lunar]

But does this deck need to worry about drain being better than leak or logic later?  I can see drain being somewhat dead for at least a few turns with this deck at times...places early where mana leak is going to be a hard counter and more easily useable since it doesnt need double blue...it could allow for bazaar to be active earlier with just a mox and another random mana producing land...it makes leak playable turn 1 on the play as well with mox island go...

Logic seems to work decent in the deck, but it might be a little conditional...

3 drain
3 leak

just feels weird though...lol, lets hear it for non-conformity...

especially with 3xBrainstorm in there rather than 4....has merchant scroll been better than just a 4th storm...or even another leak or drain?

[Xman]

Sorry I have been away.  Playing 40k (Won the last tournament, thank you)

ok, here we go

@ Cr0v4x,

We tried crop rotation.  Not needed in our opinion.  But if it works for you, toss it in.  We didn't like, mainly because we would draw it later in the game with more imortant cards we were needing instead of it.

Now onto the Drain Issue.

We tested circular logic.  In fact, our very first builds ran logic over drain for about 2 months, then I said wait, Drain will speed this deck up.  Both are decent ideas.  Logic works great with Bazaar and Wild Mongrel, but that is it.  Drain works great with Deed, Intuition, Deep Analysis, Vampire Hounds, etc.  Drains also allow us to run fewer mana sources.  In fact, it was brought ot my attention that there should be a maindecked Arcane Lab.  Would be pretty savage in the deck.

@ Lunar,

first, I am glad you keep coming up with new questions, and I am glad you realize that this thing is not only outside of the box and breaks the standard, but its all the way over in the octagon.

anyway, Leak is seriously a killer card in here, but drain is a final hard counter in the deck.  It is not weaker than logic, even in a deck like this.  Drain is not frequently a dead card in yoru hand, since usually your first turn is Mox, Blue mana, go.  It is a very reactive deck and just has to set itself up over the first couple of turns.  It usually has a drain online by turn 3, and at the same time, turn 3 it also has the bazaar/squee engine frequently rocking.

Adams build is a little different, but it is a good build, and I end up changing my build every few days anyway.  Keep the ideas coming.

Thanks guys.

[Lunar]

Okay so the build I threw together on workstation is something like this...

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak
2 Mana Drain
1 Echoing Truth
1 Balance

2 Deep Analysis
3 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Squee Goblin Nabob
2 Wild Mongrel
1 Vampire Hounds
1 Darksteel Collosus

5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus

3 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
2 City of Brass
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Bazaar of Bagdhad


Things that you will notice immediatly....

4 Leak
2 Drain

I find leak in testing to just be better at giving me early stops...this deck NEEDS early stops more so than it needs late stops...even late leak is generally enough. Drain still sticks instead of something else though because it IS drain after all and it can give a much needed mana boost later in the game...

-creatures

I wanted a tad more tutoring since I was having problems finding actual answers to things that slipped through the counters...vampiric tutor gets added, its just really good with bazaar and brainstorm.

-creatures
+ Tinker/DSC

This is just too good to have availible early...there are numerous discard outlets in the deck so getting him out of hand is not a problem at all...tinker is never dead (well 99% of the time)

- Deed from the MD
+Balance to the MD

with a cut in some creatures and the card disadvantage that bazaar can bring sans squee, balance is an amazing fit in this deck...of course you need white to make it happen, but getting into white is not a problem with 4 fetches and 2 cities...adding white also gives me some goodness in the SB like Sacred Ground and Ray of Revelation if needed...

- Library of Alexandria
+Mana Crypt

Adding tinker should make this obvious, but this also lets my mana leaks get online easier.  I also was having trouble with library vs bazaar...they are really pretty exclusive...couple that with the fact that I want to be discarding to mongrel and hound and library gets the cut....if you fear chalice this could easily be city #3 or any other land probably...

I think thats the main stuff...

In testing this deck owns budgety decks of all kinds....take that as you will. The sligh matchup I found was really silly...heh. 

Mono U and Chalice Oath (okay this build had chalice and EE along with tinker/dsc and drain/leak/force/misd) both gave me some problems in just being able to out counter me, they both also happened to get into tinker against me early after a counter war over something like a mongrel or oath or what have you...

Stax seemed to be a toss up though...some games I was able to just go pretty broken before they got a foothold (leak and force are great here) and after SB Sacred Ground is hot...but sometimes things just wouldnt go right...probably due the the unstable nature of Bazaar/Squee...conditional bazaars suck here, but adding DSC as another creature helps...Deep Anal is good for the deck as well, but 2 seems to be a good number for me...

I havnt found any combo to deal with yet...but ill be playing against some gifts and keeper and oath more this weekend...

Anyhow, what do you guys think of a build like this....have you tried a 4 or 5 color base before? I havnt found any matchups where P.Deed was really needed yet...I rarely play against fish, and this seems to have a good matchup against that sort of thing anyways...


BTW I started with the list from above, and then tweaked it as testing went on...this is where im at now, and further testing might take it in a totally different direction as well...But this seems somewhat solid.

The only really odd thing I was thinking about was dropping to 3 bazaars....I know I know, weird...but it sorta feels right, it would help reduce the conditional bazaars maybe, but I really want to see bazaar at times..........hmmmm...

[Jacob Orlove]

If you're only running three castable creatures in the main, why not just replace them with Zombie Infestation?

[Lunar]

actually I was just thinking about changing to psychatogs, but infestation would work nicely as well...(I own togs, I dont currently have infestations, heh)

That and its not in the flavor of the name of the deck....im really trying hard to keep at least a few doggies in there.

[Dralock]

Interestingly enough, I only begrudgingly upped my drain count to 4. I liked the leaks much more till I threw down a dog.

With only three dogs, though, It will be hard to see them. I'm going to try this build out, as I want to see what a more tog-ish build with white will feel like.

I still stand by my statement 100% that Vampire Hounds and Wild Mongrels are superior to any other creature in a bazaar deck. If Infestation becomes a better choice, then that is just how it is.

[Lunar]

on infestation vs mongrel (I say mongrel because I am pretty sure im just gonna drop the hound if I ever go with the doggies again...)

Infestation is nice because the bonus for dumping squee and DSC sticks around over time..the tokens will add up and get better as the game goes...

mongrel and hounds you must reset each turn...this isnt always a problem, but at times I want to be using squee to dig with bazaar or my hand just has good stuff I dont want to pitch to the dogs...however mongrel and hounds can be useful on their own, whereas infestation is dead until you get at least 1 squee going...

Id probably go with

Tinker/DSC
3 Infestation

as the win for this control deck...that seems pretty solid to me...

I like that you have one enchantment win and one creature win, meaning they cant just bring in swords and pwn you with them...they will have to have both something like swords to deal with DSC AND ray of revealtion or naturalize or something to deal with the infestation...echoing truth would be solid against you, but the tokens will just come back, and you can always feed a DSC sent back to your hand to the infestation anyways...

[Dralock]

HRm, ok

If that is the case, then I would up the DA to 4, or bring on AK. Since the deck no longer absolutely needs the creatures for the win, wonder gets dropped as well.

Tinker-> DSC, if used, trumps Vampire hounds in its ability to clock the opponent. The only thing is that vampire hounds are castable at any time, and present a significan't clock if lain on the table in good position (which you should be at considering all the draw you are able to pull off).

Take it or leave it.

I am still interested in testing zombie infestation though. If it works out, I'll post a separate decklist than this. Hounds R Us is a deck centered on bazaar, squee, vampire hounds and wild mongrel. cutting any of those pieces cuts the essence of the deck, and therefore we should probably start from a new brainwave.

[Lunar]

I agree, and that is why I hadnt already switched the wins....I was trying my hardest to keep the flava goin...

I think that once you drop from a full 8 dogs you almost immediatly switch to a much much more controlish route...this weakens the dogs immediatly and switches the whole deck up considerably...

what I came up with (if you swap out the 3 dogs for 3 infestations) isnt really anything like Hounds with the exception of they are both bazaar control decks that want to utilize squee as part of the win condition....the question for the list I slapped up there is whether or not it is as good as or better than the existing squee infestation decks that are roaming around europe and to a much much much lesser degree here in the US (okay, I cant think of anybody off the top of my head playing infestation here in the US...but you get the idea)

[Dralock]

So the question is really, do you find yourself wanting more threats? Or do you like the game that is presented and are finding you need a better kill?

I personally have found that 5 dogs does it for me, as I blast through SO many cards, and will have 10 cards in hand at any given time. I will quite literally be chugging along with bazaar and library turning my 3 squee in to 4 - 6 points of damage (if I have squee 4 already) per turn. Getting established is just not a problem either. It only takes one resolved intuition, and you have 3 to burn through. Add in brainstorm and you have a deck that continuously can give you things to do.

I had to drop to 1 deed because I was drawing too many cards to justify 2. And some turns I sit back and realize I have 2 swinging creatures on the board and 13 cards in hand (library, squees, deep analysis use), 4 of which amount to 8 damage on their own.

7 dogs are the most you want to pack no matter what. having 2 hounds in your opening hand is terrible, as your first creature will invariably always be a mongrel to get some synergy going.

This brings me to zombie infestation, which is just damn slow. Ditching two cards for one creature, and not 2 - 4 damage right now or 1 and 1/2 cards really seems lame in comparison to doing anything hounds does already.

[Lunar]

its a swaping of theory though...infestation is decent over a longer game in this type of deck, hounds are a liability if you want to play more and more control, and if you get to run tinker/dsc then you already have something better than hounds or mongrel anyways...infestation becomes a backup win...infestation is also a cumulative effect whereas you have to reset every turn with mongrel and hound...your example of having 10+ cards in hand every turn is one thing, but in testing this only happens every now and then...usually you are sitting around on likr 4 or 5 cards in hand (since you need to be countering things from time to time, and you dont always get intuition, let alone get intuition to resolve) bazaar doesnt always stick around and library is often only useable for colorless mana....

When your deck is operating at optimal levels then mongrels and hounds are amazing, however when you are operating at what ive found to be normal levels or even sub optimal levels then tinker/dsc and infestation are just better...too often for me wild mongrel is a vanilla 2/2 since I dont want to discard a lot of control to pump up to like a 5/5 and I dont always have multiple squee or bazaar...

Infestation allows the deck to run more controllish feeling since you can hold off on activating bazaar on your own turn, that way you can either use it in response and pitch your squees to bazaar...or you can EOT dump squee to infestation and put the hurt on...Its partially for this reason that the original Squee Infestation decks generally run Circular Logic as well since it fits in with their using bazaar more in response than proactivly...I personally dont like CL, but it can make sense in the deck I guess....

But that makes this a kinda cool deck format...the fact that you can swap out 5 win condition cards for 5 different win condition cards and have 2 very different feeling decks is kinda neat.