Black Metal - B/W Control

[BigMac]

Have you thought of Dark Confidant instead of the nights whisper?

http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=Dark%20Confidant#

Another thing you can consider is to cut 1 or 2 angels. You are playing a control deck, so getting a finisher in your first hand is not a very good play.

You could also consider to put in 1 tendrils, just for the heck of it. You can pull off the random combokill when your opponent does not suspects it.

I would also consider another seal of cleansing as 1 seems to little to me.

For graveyard removal you can consider Coffin Purge as it is a versatile card.

Cards you could consider to cut for those are 1 StP as 4 seems to be a lot. Another card to lose can be a mind twist as it can be a dead card early on. Dead cards in vintage spell disaster so it is removable.

Shadow of Doubt seems weak to me as well. Very circumstantial to say the least as people could response to the card with tutoring as far as i know.

I like the idea a lot. It has the same basis but a little different outcome of the deck. I actually won with a similar deck a beta timetwister one and a half years ago so it can very well work. The biggest difference is that you want to finish with the angels and i had nantuko shades for that. The rest is peanuts.

Good luck with the build and i will be watching closely as i want to start this deck up again after the next big tournament here for a Lotus.

[lordmayhem]

@ Dralock:

Adam, I think that would be a bad idea, since Field will mess with my Wastelands and my fetchies. Note the Crucibles mate. Dropping a Needle naming something with THEIR activated abilities is gravy, but messing with MY tempo disruption is bad.

@ Mac:

I thought about Confidant but I don't really like him in this particular deck. Its not a particularly explosive deck, and I'd end up killing myself with Confidant. Revealing Vindicate, CoW or Angel is painful.

Cutting 1 or 2 Angels might be a feasible idea really but for what? One of the reasons that I do well with this deck is because of its consistency in slapping down Angels. I could cut that DoJ come to think of it though.

Tendrils is such a bloody random idea that I don't think I should even bother addressing it 

I'm cutting the seal and enlightened tutor for Shadows.

For my meta, I don't really have much of a use for grave-hate, but if you really plan to take this anywhere, the golden rule is always to meta game and if you feel the need for it, go ahead.

Re: Mind Twist : Its getting cut.

Re: Shadow of Doubt : How many times do you respond to a countered tutor with another tutor? Same applies here. And mainly, I plan to counter fetchlands for the tempo disruption.

[lordmayhem]

I've been giving some serious thought to adding 3 Cabal Therapy.

I'd probably go:

-1 Seal
-1 E.Tutor
-1 Twist
-1 DoJ
-1 Summit else (mayhaps a Whisper?)

+3 Therapy
+2 Shadow

I think added disruption will only be an improvement, but what would I know eh?

[BigMac]

The confidant together with tendrils and the angels could work just fine and it puts your opponent on a quicker clock as you have a constant supply of extra cards. This card alone could be a reason for me not to play necro (although it is to good not to play it).

If you could find a way to include sensei divining top you could circomvent getting to much lifeloss through the confidant.

About the seal of cleansing. In my metagame a seal is very much a must as we have a lot of artifact heavy decks, and it works as well against oath decks.

The enlightened is a good card to cut, although it also looks for crucible and necro (when played).

When not playing confidant chains of Mephistopheles could be a very good sideboardcard.

Therapy to me is very weak. What makes therapy strong are early critters. You do not have those so it is fairly weak.

Shadow, although new meaning with your explanation still would not have a very big impact i think. A good player will play his tutoreffects in response to the spell and still get the goods he wants to find.

About the graveyard hate, i agree that it is a meta call, but removing a recurring mindslaver is always a good thing. As is a animated targeted dragon.

[lordmayhem]

I don't see how you think I can generate enough storm for Tendrils to make any sort of difference.

Confidant is nice, however the lifeloss is too heavy for such a slow clock and cutting space for top is a bad idea IMO.

If you don't like Therapy, what would you suggest in its stead? I think Therapy could be very effective disruption, though I might be wrong. I can name and discard nuisances like Tangle, Stax and even Forces.

A good player will play his tutor effects in response to Shadow of Doubt? What about playing Shadow in response to the tutor effect?

[Dozer]

Shadow, although new meaning with your explanation still would not have a very big impact i think. A good player will play his tutoreffects in response to the spell and still get the goods he wants to find.

Shadow of Doubt will almost never be played pre-emptively. Unlike Orim's Chant, when you play it in response to things, the "search" effects still get countered. Shadow is a hard-counter for anything involving a library search. I like it a lot, especially in this deck. Of course, you can still fetch in response to a Shadow, but usually, a fetchland gets broken to get the mana for a spell. If your plan was Fetch, then Tutor (which is the usual way things go), Shadow just ruined your day.

Concerning Cabal Therapy, I have to agree with BigMac. Without Flashback, Therapy is just bad because it's a blind shot. If you really want extra discard besides Duress, I suggest you look towards Unmask. It works well with Whisper and Dark Confidant, doesn't clog up your two-mana slot even further and gives you the disruption you want. Of course, since Confidants life-loss is mandatory, you might want to sac him to Therapy. But I think that Angels are enough life-gain.

I wouldn't cut an Angel. I have always been a fan of the card, and I was never sad to see one in my opening hand. Morph makes her never dead, and you also have to consider that with Confidant,  Whisper and Scryings, your life is precious. Fast Angels are necessary to offset this life-loss which can amount to a lot even in the first few turns.

I like this deck. It has all the basic tools of U-based control decks and yet offers a better disruption base.

Dozer

[BigMac]

As an accomplished TPS player i know that a turn 1 tendrils kill can only happen with a certain amount of black spells in your opening hand. You have all the tools for such an opener.

I agree that it is a long shot and you do not want to see it in your opening hand unless you can really pull it of. However, it will also make that your mid and late game rituals can be put to good use instead of being just mana (of which you normally do not need that much anyhow as you play with crucible) See it as an extra finisher when you are up against counterheavy decks.

A win extra hand with tendrils in your deck would look something like this:
Black Lotus, Dark ritual, any mox/lotus petal, swamp/fetchland, Duress, Demonic Tutor, any other spell that costs 1 or less or a land as this is not the important spot.

Go land Duress (1). Take out misdirection or Fow. IF opponent plays FoW (2), otherwise you follow up with mox/petal (2), black Lotus (3), Ritual (4), demonic tutor (5), search for yawgmoth will, play will (6), replay lotus (7) ritual (8) demonic tutor for tendrils (9) and play tendrils (10)

I immediately will say it will not happen much that you get such a hand. But if you go and see how many 1 offs you will need it think it can happen more than you think as you only need 6 cards, of which demonic is crucial. So if you ask me if it is worth it, i would say yes as it will definitely give your opponent the wrong idea and it is only 1 card that could give you life so you can play your draw spells more easily. So yeah, i think it is worth it.

But off course it is an optional card. Perhaps even a sideboardcard. I just wanted to show that you do have a combo kill with this deck. You even have a spot to spare to have a crucible or any other card that could help when the combo is not completely successful. Just see it as a finisher or to put somebody back a couple of life and give you some extra room for the kill.

Good luck and i will keep watching your progress.

[lordmayhem]

@ BigMac : Adding a random win that will happen around 0.0000000000000000000001% of the time is hardly a justified reason to try and implement the idea. This is NOT a Tendrils combo deck and does NOT try to act like one. Your reasons for justifying the inclusion of Tendrils of agony are based on a near impossible god-draw which includes THREE restricted cards. Do the math. Probability does not agree with you.

@ Dozer : I don't like how you worked Confidant into your argument. Confidant is nice, however ridiculously horrible in this particular build. What justifies me running Confidant over Phyrexian Arena? I lose less life and I don't reveal the card. Because it beats for 2? It beats me for 3 and 6 plenty of times. Plus, it's susceptible to creature hate such as Stp, Fire, Jitte...etc. On close inspection of the mana costs of some of the cards, I'm sure you can see that Confidant is NOT viable here, and as such I will NOT be running it.

On an initial look at Unmask, I'm leaning towards thinking that the card disadvantage is not worth it. What else could I replace Therapy with?

[BigMac]

As your post indicates you clearly did not read all of my post simply stopping with the unlikely first hand. My example, how rare it is, is a turn 1 win which could happen. Chances of this hand after a couple of turns and your opponent having fetches some and gotten some damage will occur as well. I only pointed out the possibility. You are in no way obligated to use it, i just wanted to show that the basis of every tendril combo deck is in your deck. That gives to me the opportunity to actually put in some random win card.

As for the cabal therapy, you could replace those with Blackmail or encroach. Both are usable but not to good. Blackmail would be my favorite.

[Nastaboi]

Well, Hymn to Tourach is a classic but considered bad nowadays, mainly because of opponents playing Goblin Welders and/or Crucibles. Mesmeric Fiend is a two-mana Duress which speeds your Angel clock by a turn. People are putting those on their black fish decks everywhere, so it can't be that bad. I would try those.

[lordmayhem]

@BigMac : Actually, I DID read your entire post, its just that I disagree with the point you try to put across. You basically said "its hard to pull off and if you don't you at least have some of their life" and I completely disagree with your arguments on whether its worth it or not. Also wtf @ Blackmail 

@Nastaboi : I tried Hymn in a much earlier build and its just not worth it, for the reasons you mentioned and Misdirection. Fiend is an idea I've considered for a while, and to be honest I don't know if it would be good or not. I like the idea and I'll try it out.

EDIT:

Been trying it out and I didn't really like it. I HAVE been testing with 2 Seals and I LIKE the results.

The current list:

// Lands
    3  Bloodstained Mire
    3  Polluted Delta
    4  Scrubland
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Swamp
    4  Wasteland

// Creatures
    4  Exalted Angel

// Spells
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Lotus Petal
    3  Night's Whisper
    2  Skeletal Scrying
    4  Swords to Plowshares
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    4  Duress
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Jet
    3  Vindicate
    1  Sol Ring
    2  Crucible of Worlds
    4  Dark Ritual
    1  Balance
    2  Pithing Needle
    1  Mox Pearl
    2  Shadow of Doubt
    2  Seal of Cleansing

[Dozer]

@ Dozer : I don't like how you worked Confidant into your argument. Confidant is nice, however ridiculously horrible in this particular build. What justifies me running Confidant over Phyrexian Arena? [...]
On an initial look at Unmask, I'm leaning towards thinking that the card disadvantage is not worth it.

That's why I worked Confidant into the argument. The extra cards fuel Unmask to offset the card disadvantage. I omitted Arena because I just didn't think about it, and even though Confidant falls to more common removal, it still does beat and is disposable in case you want to prevent the "Necro-lock".

Looking at the mana curve, I'd rather have Confidant than Arena. Looking at the mana costs, though, and how often Confidant will hit you for three, together with Whisper and Scrying you are correct by saying that it gets dangerous quite fast. On the other hand, Confidant + Angel is big. I'd be much more comfortable seeing Confidant in a deck with Jitte or Top in it, but that's clearly not the case here. Also, having Angels in the deck is the biggest risk for Confidant, since you really don't want to hit yourself for six. If those weren't in there, I'd run Confidant. But since they are, Bob Maher Jr. is indeed not an option. (Remember that a good number of times you will reval land, spreading the life-loss evenly).

I still think Unmask is a good choice. It stands aside the mana curve and allows you to utilize two discard spells early in the game, when they matter most, while simultaneously keeping mana open for the crucial third turn play (Vindicate, Crucible, Angel). You should be able to go 1st turn Duress, 2nd turn Whisper, 3rd turn big spell + Unmask often, as well as having Unmask available to protect the Swamp, Ritual, Crucible opening. On the other hand, you don't really have the big threat to go with your early Rituals, since Vindicate requires W and Ritual + Crucible is only good when you have a Waste/ Strip. How often do you fully utilize your Rituals, anyway?

Dozer

[lordmayhem]

After some careful consideration, I realized that I have five ways to get out of a Necro lock (3 Vindicate, 2 Seal), so I'm going with:

-1 Whisper
+1 Necro

Also, I use Rituals mostly to fuel card draw and to do multiple things on turn 1. Like Duress, Whisper. Or, Fetch, Pop it for Scrubland, Ritual, Crucible. Or just plain fueling a Skeletal Scrying. Now I can cast first turn Necro. 

[lordmayhem]

After some brainstorming, a bunch of testing, speculations, chatting with Dralock......etc I came up with the following conclusions:

Shadow of Doubt is just not as good as I thought it was and has been cut.
Necro was an absolute brainfart.
Maindecking Seals is pretty sexy.
I needed some other form of utility/beats/threat/awesomeness*
Night's Whisper is too damn good to be cut down.

* I considered a bunch of things for this. Dark Confidant, Null Rod, Suppression Field...but the best card to fit the bill is probably Withered Wretch. Not only is it a bear in terms of size/mana cost but it also has a strong graveyard hating ability tacked onto it making it a house against most of the graveyard loving matchups. It also stops opposing Crucibles dead.

Necro wasn't a card that I liked seeing. Sure its broken. I'm not denying that. But its the kind of brokenness that I don't need in this build, since I'm not going to be dropping threat after threat after threat from all the cards I draw.

So this is what the deck looks like at the moment:

// Lands
    3  Bloodstained Mire
    3  Polluted Delta
    4  Scrubland
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Swamp
    4  Wasteland

// Creatures
    4  Exalted Angel
    3  Withered Wretch

// Spells
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Skeletal Scrying
    4  Swords to Plowshares
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    4  Duress
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Jet
    2  Vindicate
    1  Sol Ring
    2  Crucible of Worlds
    4  Dark Ritual
    1  Balance
    2  Pithing Needle
    1  Mox Pearl
    2  Seal of Cleansing
    4  Night's Whisper

I'm considering a few things with the current build. I was wondering how Engineered Explosives would work out instead of a Vindicate. I'm sure there are good cards that can be totally blown away for a CC of 0, 1 or 2 (Moxen, Chalices, Welders, Vial, Jitte, Fish creature......etc), but what does everyone think about this? Is it worth dedicating a slot or perhaps even 2 to this idea? Perhaps there are just better answers or just better general hatred?

[J J P]

IMHO you really should give Dark Confidant a try. The average casting cost of your deck is about 1.3. Unless you are extremly unlucky the life loss shouldn't be too bad.

[Liam-K]

I don't think Confidant is correct for the same reason I don't think Plaguespitter is correct.  Both are versatile creatures tha provide powerful card advantage, but both are also very aggressive cards that are maximized by pressuring your opponent.  In this deck, that means you are forced to either miss-assign your role or under-utilize your cards.  Neither wins you games.

[lordmayhem]

I think its cute how everyone thinks I should maindeck a 2/1 which is worse than Phyrexian Arena, but enough is enough.

Dark Confidant does not belong here and I don't know what justifies me running something that will beat for 2 but hit me for 1-3 and at times 6, whilst simultaneously being susceptible to the most widespread removal : Plague, StP, Balance, Fire, Jitte, and the new : Dark Blast, when I could just run Arena and take 1 each turn instead. Confidant belongs in Fish and in Sui. It belongs in decks with a much faster clock than a control deck, and Confidant does NOT belong in a control deck. At all.

Anyway seeing as noone answered my question, let me re-iterate : are Explosives a viable idea?