Re: Filling out 5 Colour Stax

[Disburden]

e-tutor doesnt get stripmine or academy, which I tutor up at least 50% of the time.
titanias song is terrible. it costs 4 nonshop mana which is actually very hard to do. chalice costs ZERO. chalice is awesome bc you look at your opening hand play some mana and a threat and then on top of that you get chalice @ 0 for free as a bonus. the point is to stop your opp from going broken in the first couple turns, not kill moxes long after theyve been pumping out mana for several turns.

Why would anyone want to run a version of stax without Chalice of the Void?

[Shean]

Call me crazy, but in my testing, Yawg's Will hasn't been all that great.  Keep in mind, I've cast it twice and it got countered both times.  I just feel like it's a "win more" card at best.  Yeah great, if I resolve Yawg's Will I win, but many times I look at it in my hand and wish it were another tutor.  I'm thinking of cutting Yawg's Will to run either Fastbond or D-Consul.

[NastyNate]

Why would anyone want to run a version of stax without Chalice of the Void

Roland Chang doesn't run them, and I understand why. Every deck worth it's salt runs multiple answers to chalice in the MD these days, from gorilla shaman, to goblin welder, to echoing truth, and even rebuild.

Chalice has seen some pretty extensive play recently both in stax and fish decks, and nobody wants to blindly run into them. I know that I've personally had quite a bit of trouble getting them to stick. Chalice for zero is almost worthless when it is followed by a gorilla shaman from the other side of the table, and the shaman incidentally renders all further chalices worthless too, unless you kill it a.s.a.p. Of course if you waste time killing the shaman, then you often miss the opportunity to further lock someone out of the game.

Suppression field does help to alleviate this problem, but at most you are running four of them, and the chances of resolving both a chalice for zero, and the field on turn one is not good enough for me to rely upon that condition. They are both turn one drops for you, but hoping for both in the opening hand is a little unrealistic. You certainly cannot expect it.

Chalice is quite powerful when cast with one counter, but this option is really terrible when your whole engine is based around one casting cost tutors. You will cut off, brainstorm, welders, shaman, and goblin vandal (don't laugh, he's a beating) but you lose ancestral, vampiric, crop rotation, imperial seal, fastbond, enlightened tutor, and your own shaman if you chose to run one.

I think Lunar may be correct. Null rod may be a stronger card in this spot. Coupled with suppression field it is devastating. The difficulty there in, is that 5C stax relies quite heavily upon it's artifact acceleration, and shutting down a third of your own mana base is often difficult to overcome. 

Vroman, think of Titania's Song like you'd think of Sundering Titan. It is a bomb for the late game that wins when it resolves, or shortly there after. When you cast it, you destroy all moxen and chalices in play, and all your lock components instantly become win conditions. It is certainly a powerful option for sealing the deal. And as far as casting cost go, shops provide two more mana than your 5C lands, and song costs four mana. In my eyes that translates to a four casting cost enchantment being about the eequivalentof a six casting cost artifact, in terms of castability. This is a win condition not a turn one drop.

Also enlightened tutor does not fetch strip mine or academy, but neither does fastbond or yawgmoth's will. It only gets lock components, answers, and win conditions. It's really pretty good. You don't have to cut any of your other tutors to squeeze this one in too. I know that other tutors may be better, but it is strong enough to consider.

Call me crazy, but in my testing, Yawg's Will hasn't been all that great. Keep in mind, I've cast it twice and it got countered both times. I just feel like it's a "win more" card at best. Yeah great, if I resolve Yawg's Will I win, but many times I look at it in my hand and wish it were another tutor. I'm thinking of cutting Yawg's Will to run either Fastbond or D-Consul.

I couldn't agree more about will. It seems like nothing better than three casting cost regrowth in many circumstances. The whole deck is built to limit the number of spells cast in a turn, and make will less powerful or game breaking when cast. Running it yourself seems counter intuitive; however there are times when you've had numerous moxen killed, a couple of tutors countered, and a couple big artifacts rack and ruined, and resolving will under those circumstances can really put you back in the game. I've gone back and forth about will in stax decks, but the times I wish it were something else, generally outweigh the number of times I wish I could top deck it, when I'm losing. Besides, balance is to this deck, what will is to gifts or control slaver; that is your game winning bomb.

[Jacob Orlove]

And as far as casting cost go, shops provide two more mana than your 5C lands, and song costs four mana. In my eyes that translates to a four casting cost enchantment being about the eequivalentof a six casting cost artifact, in terms of castability.

Shops are irrelevant when you're casting nonartifact spells, so if we're running under the assumption that you have shop out, you need a total of seven mana (not six) to cast a card like Titania's Song. That's actually about as hard to cast as Sundering Titan is.

[Shean]

I've changed some cards and this list seems to be more consistent.

4 smoky
4 crucible
4 resistor
3 suppressor
3 null rod
2 chains
2 eye of chaos
1 3sphere

1 razormane
1 shaman

1 d-tutor
1 v-tutor
1 e-tutor
1 c-rotation
1 i-seal
1 tinker

1 recall
1 balance

9 artifact mana

18 lands

4 g-mine
2 COB
1 b-ring
1 god's eye
1 Academy
4 waste
1 strip
4 shop

I've found that the deck can easily get around null rod, just tutor for your academy.  The thing about null rod:  Yes, you cut off about 1/3 of your mana sources, but you also cut off about 1/3 of the opp's mana sources.  You run 4 tutors for Academy + 4 shops + 4 crux, how many do they run?  Maybe 2 rebuild/hurkyl's recall/etc.

I'm also looking at changing the creatures to: 1 welder + 1 titan (Razormane keeps pissing me off and I never see/tutor for shaman).  Sometimes, when i have ItEoC locked, I'd like to tutor for a Welder (Maybe it's "win more" but it also looks like duress on turn 1 - they always FoW welder).  Another possible idea: -1 Crux -1 Shaman +2 Welder (Testing this currently.  I know Suppression hurts welder etc., but the payoff is worth the risk I think).

Try this list and let me know what you guys think.

[trinisphere]

The major problem that I have found in testing this deck is that it has huge problems playing against the 5color stacks mirror. More precisely is sucks on the draw. In most cases the opposing stax play will seek to play sphere of resistance, trinisphere, or chalice of the void on turn one thereby stopping moxen to accelerate your board position to play suppression field early. With all the tutors in the main one solution would be hurklys recall. I have found it to be quite amazing a several occasions when I'm behind on board position. Playing it at the end of my opponent's turn then laying suppression field shuts down welders on the board while letting me lay more lock componets. I have found it to be amazing against gifts and slaver as well to put moxen into their hands and force them to replay them with a sphere or two on the board. Hurkyls can single handedly swing the tempo of the game to a position where it is impossible for your opponent to win.

[vroman]

* any deck w access to black mana should play yawgmoths will. period. obviously a stax deck is not going to go broken off a yawg will and win the game on the spot. when you play lots of cost modifiers, yawgie becomes way less potent. however, you are AT WORST probably going to regrowth 2 or 3 permanents back on the board, and maybe replay a tutor. but potentially it sets up excellent plays, such as slowly sack all your moxen to smoky, while holding yawgie and then right before opp thinks your going to have to lose smoky, you replay a shitton of free stuff from the yard and bury them in soot. at 2b this is absolutely worth it. lots of ppl think this card should be BANNED; sure this is not the optimal deck to abuse it in, but its still broken as all hell.

* if your going to play hurkyls, I would run wheel of fortune, windfall and possibly memory jar as well, just for the broken play of wiping someones board and refilling your hand at the same time.

* running a single welder is actually nifty tech. I will try a build w that next.

* chalice @ 1 is always my preferred casting slot, basicaly for shaman and welder. Opening hand of 2xchalice, plus workshop or land+mox is my favorite turn 1 play.

* e-tutor I would not run bc the search-to-top-of-library tutors are inherantly weaker than the into hand or play tutors. v-tutor and I-seal are only worth it bc they can get any card in the deck. if Im getting card disadvantage from my play, it had better be able to get me out of any situation, which enlightened cannot.

* I will give 1of titanias song a try, but the terrible synergy w chalice (basicaly you have to cut chalice) and high cost make it seem unplayable on paper. w nether void being nigh uncastable, and that wins the game, titania I dont see as being at all worth it.

[Polynomial P]

4cc non-artifact spells are terrible in a deck where you are going to play chalice for 0 and sphere of resistance. 3cc is pushing the limit, but are worth it for game breaking effects like ITEOC and choke.

@vroman: I disagree that Yawg will is useful in this deck. Too much of the time it is a dead card. If you get it in your oppening hand, you are playing with a six card hand in a deck that cant draw itself into more gas (like Gifts or Slaver). Yawg will becomes worse when you play sphere of resistance and your initial smokestack sacs are going to be some of your 5c lands (for fear of opponents welders).

I played Will for a while in a R/B Stax deck and so much of the time I wanted will to be something else (usually a 4th crucible). Sometimes Will is going to be fantastic, but it is a dead card more often than not.

Other than that I really like Vroman's list. Nethervoid might have to be something else though, I would say another G-shaman despite the anti-synergy with supression field.

[Sean Ryan]

Ok, addressing some of the comments:

1) Yawg's Will - Listen to those with more experience, (Cron, Smmenen, Vroman).  It is a MUST in CronStax.  It is arguable in Chang style Stax b/c you rely on Welders. 

When I first started testing Stax with 0-2 Welders I didn't like Will.  The more experience I had with the deck the more I began to see how good Will is.  Of course it isn't what you want in your opening grip but that is neglagable compared to how good it is when ripped off the top in the midgame.  Last Sat against Gifts, with Sacred Ground down, Will won me the game where NO OTHER CARD could!  That is the key.  Will wins you games that you have no buissiness winning.  I will never cut it from Cronstax.  Nuff said.

2) Nether Void - I love this card but at 4 nonshop mana it usually either sits in your hand or is a win more card.  Titana's Song deserves points for creative thinking but I echo Vroman, it negates Chalice and is worse than Karn as a win condition.

3) ET - you already have enough tutors and this one is by far the worst option.  VT and ISeal are both strictly better and since Strip/Academy is the most common tutor target...

4) H. Recall/Draw 7s - There is no reason to start running cards that help your opponent simply b/c. they have a cute interaction with H.Recall which is a 2 of at best.  That being said I really like having a single H.Recall MD

5) Mirror - Not having Welders can hurt against Chang Stax game 1, but if your running SFields that would help.  However, game 2&3 you bring in like half your board and have a substantial advanatage.  I played against the same Chang stax build twice last weekend, once in the swiss (won 2-0), once in the T8 (lost 0-2).  I was able to bring in mad hate which definitly won me game 2 match one.  But I lost in the T8 due to a) my opponents broken first turn and b) my failure to deal with a tinkered Titan under my Chalice at 1.  I have reached the conclusion that while deck construction and the right side board make a difference, what is more important is the dye roll and good ol lady luck.

6) Welder - I was running 2 MD but with SFields in the mix I'm reluctant to run any.  Having Welder as a one of to tutor up when needed could be good especially if those Suppressors are in your SB.  The only time welder really helped me was against E.Flux.  even in the mirror crucible was a much more defining card, along with G.Shaman.

7) misc.  - I also disliked Razormane.  Hes some good against Fish I hear but, playing the Razormane over my 3rd Seal of Cleansing lost me that game to Titan in the T8.  We might need to retain Razormane to shore up agaisnt cheap aggro but I really don't know.  Ensnaring Bridge is another option against aggro, one that I wish I didn't need to even consider but it is a threat.

8) Fastbond - When it hits incombination with Crucible its awesome, but its not a lock peice and does next to nothing on its own, therefore it is currently occupying my 60th rotating spot.   


Sean   

[vroman]

todays test list was:
4 smoky
4 crucible
4 supresor
4 resistor
0 chalice
1 TITANIAS SONG
1 ENLIGHTENED TUTOR
1 NULL ROD
2 chains
2 chaos
dtutor
vtutor
cropro
iseal
fbond
arecall
ywill
tink
balance
monkey
tsphere
26 mana
1 gate to rekai

we played this against giftz, control slaver and ubastax.
giftz had very little chance as is expected.
control slaver did surprisingly well against this. suppresor is not as effective as welder removal. cronstax has basicaly no answer to tinker.
ubastax won nearly every game. did it not occur to you that titania song makes all their locks huge guys as well? and every other stax deck plays more big artifacts than cronstax? if you thought the stax mirror was hard before, try it when your primary win condition makes you lose. this match up quickly became a running gag where the cronstax player lamented every loss as "if only I drew my titania song!"
the joke being that even when it was drawn, there wasnt the right mana to play it or it would have put its controller on a disastrously short clock at the hands of big angry uba masks and crucibles.
conclusions:
titania song is BAD
giftz has a rought time against any stax, and enchantment based stax in particular.
cronstax has too many color requirements to run gate to rekai, as nifty as it may be. I like the card a lot in ubastax though.
null rod is superb in general, but is terrible in the stax mirror, esp when they can massively outdraw you to always hit land drops.
control slaver is very hard to beat if your deck has any kind of artifact as part of its attack plan
etutor is not as bad as expected, as there are lots of non-stripmine things that are usually worth getting even if not the perfect solution. however keep in mind I was only able to find room for etutor by dropping chalice of the void, which is going right back in the deck after the titania experiment is stamped 'failure'.

[cssamerican]

My current list is:
Lands - 19
        4 City of Brass
        4 Gemstone Mine
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
        1 Tolarian Academy
Enchantments - 5
        3 Suppression Field
        2 In the Eye of Chaos
Spells - 10
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Crop Rotation
        1 Hurkyl's Recall
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Balance
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Imperial Seal
        1 Timetwister
        1 Tinker
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
Artifacts - 26
        4 Sphere of Resistance
        4 Chalice of the Void
        4 Smokestack
        3 Crucible of Worlds
        1 Ensnaring Bridge
        1 Trinisphere
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire

After testing this over the past week I keep asking myself one question. Are three Suppression Fields and a Hurkyl's Recall better than two Gorilla Shamans and two Pithing Needles? And my answer keeps coming up as resounding NO. So, I am starting to lose faith in Suppression Field being a major player in the future of Stax. I am going to keep testing for a little while longer, but I am a lot less optimistic than I was a week ago.

So, what did I get out of this experiment.
1.) I really do like Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai as the kill condition in Stax. It is good in the mirror, Null Rod doesn’t hamper it, and it frees up a slot in the deck. I really didn't run into any color balancing problems, but it looks like I am running one more mana source than Vroman, which may be the difference in our experience with the card.
2.) I actually like having Timetwister in the deck. Not only can get you going again after a stall, you can also hurt many of the decks out there due to the large number of graveyard dependent strategies being played.
3.) Ensnaring Bridge is the best hoser to any deck that actually depends on the attack phase to win.

[Tin_Mox5831]

I've been tweaking CronStax for quite awhile, and I played it recently at SCG: Richmond. (Just for reference, I scrubbed my way to a glorious 19th place!  ) Anyway, I have a few thoughts about the deck.

1) Chains Of Mephistopheles is the best enchantment-based hoser the deck has to offer. Think about it this way: What decks don't run an established draw engine? Other Stax decks and subpar decks you should beat anyway. The mirror is mainly determined by the players' skill and a dash of luck anyway, so you almost have to leave these cards alone.

2) In The Eye Of Chaos looked like a good maindeck card to me going into Richmond, but now I feel they should be boarded unless you're up North where the land flows with milk and honey....and Mana Drains. It's a potent card, but there were too many times that I drew this and wished it was pretty much anything else.

3) One or two Goblin Welders should be in here. I have been in so many situations where a single Welder would have saved me. I wouldn't want more than two, mainly because they lose some of their punch outside the mirror, but one or two could be the safety valve CronStax needs to get out of the tight spots it sometimes gets itself into. I find that in many games when I'm on the draw, I have to play from behind until a few lock pieces come down and start interacting. That's where I'd like to draw a Welder.

4) I have been very vocal in my support of Suppression Field on SCG.com for the last week, and after quite a bit of testing, I stand by my initial opinion. I run a pair of Fields, and so far they have been very good to me. I've won several mirrors this week despite having an inferior board mainly because the cards that let my opponent best take advantage of that situation become too expensive and downright inefficient, allowing me to build my way back into the game.

5) God's Eye, Gate To The Rekai is cute, but it just hasn't panned out for me in testing. Major kudos to whoever came up with the idea though. It is very cool in theory, but it just seems to be the straw that breaks my manabase's back. Too many games involve me holding back on a broken spell because the Gate doesn't make rainbow mana. Conversely, I have never looked at my opponent and said, "Man, if this City was God's Eye, you'd be sooo dead!". That's why I've cut it before week's end.

6) As far as metagame slots, I usually run two Seal Of Cleansing in my maindeck. I tested without them for awhile before Richmond, then threw 'em back in on the drive there. In that meta, which was pretty reminiscent of my own, they were undoubtedly my MVP's in the games I won. I didn't have a match all day where they weren't handy. I feel that Seals deserve to reclaim their rightful place in 5C Stax. They're versatile, they don't sit dead in your hand, and they can be sacked to your Stack in a pinch. They're awesome. Plus, I now have some signed FNM ones. That was my deciding factor! j/k.

Later,
Dave

[Sean Ryan]

@cssamerican,

Where is your win condition?  Are you relying soley on Gods Gate?  That sounds like a gamble but since actually winning is more of a formality in Stax anyways it may work.

Ensnaring Bridge maindeck?  Are you facing aggro all day? I run 2 in the SB sometimes.

Suppression Field - it may end up being stronger in the SB than MD.  But in many matches it is HUGE.  Its just that it isn't that great against Gifts which is the control deck of choice at the moment.  Since Gifts started runnig Thirst of Knowledge again, I am liking MD Chains of M. even better than Suppressors

Timetwister - there are certainly times when it can be great but I think the risk often out weighs the gain.  One of the intended streanths to CronStax is to be able to rely on the topdeck.  Wiping the yard clean may actually outweigh the 7 cards in many instances.

@ Vroman,

I've never been comftorable with less than 27 mana sources in Stax.  The current lists are actually skewed toward colored spells not artifacts so I think more 5c lands are the key not less.  I was running BRing and I often wished it was another 5c land.

Sean

[vroman]

* seal cleansing. Im not a big fan of 1-for-1 answers that have no recursion potential. I would rather play specialized removal that generates card advantage: ray of rev/racknruin/b-ring, etc

* ensnaring bridge. what exactly is this good against? gifts will nearly always hurkyls a stax deck before tinkering and walking. or just tendrils. the only way to beat giftz is to kill their mana.
bridge doesnt do anything to proactively upset opps game, so they have all the time they need to get rid of it as soon as they feel like killing you. ie control slaver will eventually be able to weld it away, or make infinite pentavites and force you to keep a completely empty hand. stax will just wait to clear your board before even thinking about swinging in (or just barbarian ring you to death), and until that pt you spent 3 mana and a card for a generic permanent instead of something that effects thier board.
maybe this screws oath and fish, brain dead easy match ups anyway. there is much cheaper creature defense in the form of swords and maze

* timetwister. crucible uses the yard. however this is a way besides yawgie to return countered win conditions. draw 7s in stax? I only play wheel bc of uba devastation. I have no thoughts right now, as playing draw 7s for their own sake is a fairly alien concept from my stax experience. it certainly makes hurkyls a more exciting play

* pithing needle. the problem w needle is made aparent by the way its fans try to sell its merits. "think of all the things you can name!" exactly, there are so many diferent key activated abilities in most decks that naming one isnt necesarily going to matter when you get wrecked by all the others. when people board needles in against me, do they name welder, bazaar, shaman, heretic, wasteland, stripmine? losing any one of those is fairly irelevent if I have the others beating up opp. and smokys immune which is all that really counts.

[Lunar]

What im seeing is two completely different sets of results stemming from several different regions around the US....obviously this is going to be pretty much 100% meta dependant (suppresor in cronstax...)

I do think that AT LEAST it needs to find its way into the SBs of stax...

@ Vroman...you speak a lot about its losses in the mirror, how is it doing against non-mirror matches in comparison to the other stax decks?  Could options like Null Rod be sided out in a control heavy meta when you play stax, or maybe sided in against control in a shop heavy environment.  Suppresor is just really good against something like chang stax, and if one resolves against uba stax I generally have a field day....maybe thats just me though.

I think if you are going to run gods eye you need at LEAST 27 mana sources for this deck...but gods eye seems pretty decent as a win with suppresion field out.  Id probably still sport a Sundering Titan though, heh...

But anyways, this all just lends itself to what Kevin Cron is so amazing at...metagaming and sideboarding is going to be the whole deck....if every one of us took a list we agree upon here and went to a tourney in each of our respective areas we would probably have wildly varying results...probably some amazing records and horrendous losses....

There is no ONE right list for this IMO....


EDIT: In response to vromans entry while I was typing...

I dont see ensnaring bridge making it into my MD anytime soon, heh.....

Seal is good and all, but not with suppresion field....

Timetwister is interesting, especially with a lack of welders in the deck...refueling an opponents hand can sometimes be a problem though...feels like a "win more" card to me.....

Pithing needle is great, but its not great at the same time....some decks is just hoses at times, but others you are just left waiting for a thirst for knowledge to come along to pitch it to....id rather have suppresion field right now....

[Tin_Mox5831]

I agree with pretty much everything you had to say there Lunar. Well put.

@ Vroman:

You bring up a good point about Seal being a 1-for-1 trade. Also, Lunar brought up the interaction between Seal and Field, which does hurt. However, I included them in my MD at Richmond mainly b/c it's the only broad and general card that fit my need there. I wanted something that I could run as a 2-of, kill both artifacts and enchantments with, use at instant speed (But not an instant, due to ITEoC), and maybe sack if I really need to. What else fits that bill? I wholeheartedly agree that there are answers that are better in terms of card advantage, but most of them are too specialized to MD, plus which of those is as flexible as Seal when you want an edge in game 1 without risking dead cards?

Later,
Dave

[Moxlotus]

1.) I really do like Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai as the kill condition in Stax. It is good in the mirror, Null Rod doesn’t hamper it, and it frees up a slot in the deck. I really didn't run into any color balancing problems, but it looks like I am running one more mana source than Vroman, which may be the difference in our experience with the card.

Remember, in tournament setting you only have 50 minutes.  With just this as your kill, if you lost game 1 there is absolutely no way you will win the match.  Decks with Karn+2 Shaman+2 Welders+B-ring take a long time to kill, your single Kjeldoran Outpost will take even longer.

[cssamerican]

* ensnaring bridge. what exactly is this good against? gifts will nearly always hurkyls a stax deck before tinkering and walking. or just tendrils. the only way to beat giftz is to kill their mana.
bridge doesnt do anything to proactively upset opps game, so they have all the time they need to get rid of it as soon as they feel like killing you. ie control slaver will eventually be able to weld it away, or make infinite pentavites and force you to keep a completely empty hand. stax will just wait to clear your board before even thinking about swinging in (or just barbarian ring you to death), and until that pt you spent 3 mana and a card for a generic permanent instead of something that effects thier board.
maybe this screws oath and fish, brain dead easy match ups anyway. there is much cheaper creature defense in the form of swords and maze

* timetwister. crucible uses the yard. however this is a way besides yawgie to return countered win conditions. draw 7s in stax? I only play wheel bc of uba devastation. I have no thoughts right now, as playing draw 7s for their own sake is a fairly alien concept from my stax experience. it certainly makes hurkyls a more exciting play

* pithing needle. the problem w needle is made aparent by the way its fans try to sell its merits. "think of all the things you can name!" exactly, there are so many diferent key activated abilities in most decks that naming one isnt necesarily going to matter when you get wrecked by all the others. when people board needles in against me, do they name welder, bazaar, shaman, heretic, wasteland, stripmine? losing any one of those is fairly irelevent if I have the others beating up opp. and smokys immune which is all that really counts.

Ensnaring Bridge on paper might look like a weak card; however, in practice it has been excellent for me. Facing Workshop Aggo or for that matter any deck that depends on the attack phase to win, Ensnaring Bridge has always done exactly what I wanted it to do. Slow my opponents down long enough for my Smokestack to eat their board away. At worst it’s a permanent that sacrifices to Smokestack which is more than can be said about Swords to Plowshares. Another thing to consider is that you have an additional to tutor to find it compared to Swords to Plowshares, and the fact that the Swords to Plowshares’ instant factor is negated because none of your tutors can put it in your hand immediately. On top of that, it can only handle one creature. So, this means about the only thing Swords to Plowshares excels at that Ensnaring Bridge doesn’t is handling utility creatures. However, in many cases other cards such as Pithing Needle or Suppression Field are longer lasting solutions to these types of problems because they handle future occurrences of these problems as well as current ones. There are some problems with Maze of Ith as well. It can only handle one creature at a time. You don’t need to cast a spell to remove it. Sure Crucible of Worlds allows you to replay it, but very few things you do prevents them from activating a Wasteland on your turn and swinging for the win. At least with Ensnaring Bridge almost every lock piece I have played up to that point is in some way, shape, or form is protecting the Ensnaring Bridge from removal. And lastly Maze of Ith is an activated ability, so under Suppression Field it cost mana to use. I am not saying Ensnaring Bridge should be in everyone’s Stax deck, but I do think if you do want a maindeck solution to aggro strategies other than the lone Balance, it is the best card available for that role.

Crucible allows you to replay your Strip Mine before you can cast Timetwister, so its effect on Crucible recursion is minimal in most circumstances. It clears your yard of artifacts, which strengthens your vulnerability to opposing Goblin Welders. It totally ruins opponent’s graveyards that have been set-up for Welder, Will or Animate Dead. In many cases, it will not help your opponent because it is likely you will have something in play that restricts their ability to play the cards given to them. Plus I have found that while it might increase my opponent’s hand from four to seven it increases mine from one to seven.

I think I prefer Pithing Needle because it’s a guaranteed solution to whatever card I fear. Suppression Field in many cases doesn’t stop the effect I am trying to prevent unless I have multiples in play, which isn’t something, you can count on. Perhaps against UBA Stax and the occasional Ninja Mask, Suppression Field is better because there are so many really good choices of what to name, but against the majority of decks it is a lot easier to know what to name. And I am much more comfortable knowing that what I named is dead not slightly hampered.

1.) I really do like Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai as the kill condition in Stax. It is good in the mirror, Null Rod doesn’t hamper it, and it frees up a slot in the deck. I really didn't run into any color balancing problems, but it looks like I am running one more mana source than Vroman, which may be the difference in our experience with the card.

Remember, in tournament setting you only have 50 minutes.  With just this as your kill, if you lost game 1 there is absolutely no way you will win the match.  Decks with Karn+2 Shaman+2 Welders+B-ring take a long time to kill, your single Kjeldoran Outpost will take even longer.

Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai isn’t as slow as it appears, though it isn't as fast as Karn in many cases.
First turn with a token in play opponent’s life drops to 19
Second turn now with two tokens in play opponent’s life drops to 17
Third turn now with three tokens in play opponent’s life drops to 15
Fourth turn now with four tokens in play opponent’s life drops to 11
Fifth turn now with five tokens in play opponent’s life drops to 6
Sixth turn now with six tokens in play opponent’s life drops to 0
But it shouldn’t be THAT time consuming when you opponent is lock out any way. Plus in many games people scoop without ever seeing your win condition. And in games where you have used Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai to win the premanent war you will most likely already have a few tokens before the game is locked up.

[Lunar]

I kinda like ensnaring bridge in the SB...not the MD ever though, heh....

it fills the role of both swords and maze...although at times swords is still probably a better answer (instant speed removal vs an artifact just waiting to get destroyed or bounced...)

Maze of ith shouldnt even be included IMO since it gets a little crankey when suppresion field comes over for dinner uninvited.

Where you are missing out though on the suppresion field vs pithing needle issue is that while field doesnt 100% shut it off like needle it virtually does when combined with every other piece in Stax...at the very least you are forcing an opponent to EITHER play a spell or activate someting, rather than being able to do both which at times is a big advantage...not to mention that field DOES stack so you can make things very rough on players once it hits the ground...Pithing Needle is a somewhat more powerful quick answer to a specific threat while field lends itself very well to the roll of lasting lock piece in the whole stax gameplan.

[vroman]

I forgot maze gets suppressed. still I have a hard time believing bridge is worth playing main. its basicaly only good against oath and workshop aggro. the bulk of the field is slaver, giftz and stax, none of which are particularly hurt by bridge. if anything, maybe board in ghostly prison.

anyway yesterdays test was:
artifact locks:
4 smoky
4 chalice
4 resistor
1 tsphere
3 crucible
1 null rod
1 razormane

restricted nonsense:
draw3
tink
yawgie
crop
balance
dt
vt
iseal

enchanted locks:
3 supresor
2 chains
1 chaos
1 engineered plague

27 total mana, including:
1 bring
1 rekai

the one null rod main is better than monkey w suppresor around. fastbond is dropped bc its only broken against other stax. I was overly biased in its favor bc stax mirror is my absolutely favorite match up in all of magic.
e-plague was tested to find a way to stop losing to welders. however maindeck darkblast is probably better to smoke monkeys and merfolk of the pearl trident, etc as well. what would you rather do w your draw step besides killing a welder?
in playing this list against ubastax we encountered the first instance of the Rekai Advantage Strategy. both players have crucible and rekai and are maneuvering to abuse its legendary status at oportune times to make smokestack hurt the most, while getting in there w those spirit token swings when they cant afford to trade permanents.
I stand by razormane. that guy is fing hoss. so far, resolving masticore has resulted in victory every time I can remember
for today/tommorow:
- timetwister. I just remembered that chains+twister is some good when theyve got a full grip. not as broken as uba+draw 7 is, since you dont get the new cards either, but still its another Balance effect.
- darkblast! Erlingers been running 1 main and 2 side in slaver. it rules the day against welder decks. we dont really bother testing against fish anymore, but presumably muliganing to 2: swamp+darkblast, will auto-win that match up. effectively being able to repeatedly vamp tutor for spot removal at will is ruthless
- more n-rods? card is really good.
- tinker? against ubastax I get crucible almost every time. maybe I should just be playing 4 crucibles.

[Lunar]

engineered plague vs pithing needle.....im gonna have to say id rather run a needle in that spot even, since I can think of a lot more things that needle damages than plague...for a lot easier mana cost....in the MD it seems more useful anyways...not to mention suppresion field is already harming their welders as it is....

problem is that 1 needle feels really random to me...

The only problem as I see it with that list is that there is not a single answer to an early tinker/dsc with the exception of the lone balance in there...no reactive answers really, its all proactive.  In previous CronStax lists there were like 1 or 2 tutorable answers (like swords to plowshares or echoing truth) to threats like DSC...even with that the deck had problems answering that in time...going with even less seems scary to me...

Since we are upping the amount of 2cc spells really (with suppresors in there) might we be able to go down to 3 resistors similar to roland chang, and with a cut of e.plague we can fit maybe an echoing truth and a swords, or maybe 2 echoing truths (lets pretend I never mentioned pithing needle above........)  It could both conceivably improove our problems with early big threats, but it could also help in a mirror that gets a few locks out quickly before we can get rolling, echoing truth acts similar to a time walk IMO for the mirror, by forcing them to replay their last turn (since stax is generally not playing more than 1 super important threat a turn until youve already lost, heh) I dunno, maybe its just cause ive been having a good time with e.truth lately.

just some testing ideas off the top of my head...heh

[cssamerican]

I forgot maze gets suppressed. still I have a hard time believing bridge is worth playing main. its basicaly only good against oath and workshop aggro. the bulk of the field is slaver, giftz and stax, none of which are particularly hurt by bridge. if anything, maybe board in ghostly prison.

It is definitely a metagame card, and in my meta I am obviously seeing a lot more aggro than you are in yours. My only point was it is the best card I found to run in the maindeck to combat an aggro heavy field.

the one null rod main is better than monkey w suppresor around.

You might be right here. My only concern would be having difficulty casting some of the three mana enchantments after you play a Null Rod; however, I am not sure if that would even be a problem in actual games, since it should be a pretty simple decision whether Null Rod should be played or not. Though, this is the one thing I am really starting to dislike about Suppression Field, it seems as if the more you make the deck focused around Field the more everything in the deck begins to interfere with everything else. It just seems to affect the synergy of the deck in such a negative way it almost seems like the deck is going backwards in its evolution.

e-plague was tested to find a way to stop losing to welders. however maindeck darkblast is probably better to smoke monkeys and merfolk of the pearl trident, etc as well. what would you rather do w your draw step besides killing a welder?

Dredge just seems like it would be sooo much better in builds that ran four welders. You could always win Welder wars, and whatever you dump in your graveyard could Welded back into play. Without Welders you don't get the upside of being able to weld into play the stuff you dredged. Although, I can also see how depending on Goblin Welder would become weaker strategy with this card around. It is going to be interesting to see how this card is going to affect metagames in the future.

[Lunar]

it seems as if the more you make the deck focused around Field the more everything in the deck begins to interfere with everything else

thats why this thread is here though, so we can all talk about how testing is going and share our concerns, heh...if we can decide that field is worth it then sweet lets run it, but if too many people just decide its ass then we can move on without sacraficing a tournament to it..heh...

To get suppresion field in there we are definatly going to have to change a lot of stuff up, the deck is going to not resemble ANYTHING from the past, with the exception of us using the Cron lists as a back drop.

[vroman]

I conclude darkblast is main deck worthy in any deck w black. I even threw one in giftz, which is great to put in a gifts stack when they have a welder holding off tinker. In slaver, we dropped trike for d-blast, its that good. This card is actualy the most tempting thing to make me want to run 5Cuba, bc the synergy w bazaar is swell too. its a bad time to be a 1/1 creature in vintage.

timetwister has tested very well:
-must counter, letting you resolve actual threats
-amazing late game topdeck
-makes for extremely broken turn 2s
-recycles lost win conditions
-erases graveyards
-One With Nothings opp w chains
the lowly 9th power is finaly proving its price tag to me.

supressor is not really performing for me. the fetch land hate is rarely relevent and slowing my own waste activations is significant. enchantment hosing is V obscure. damping matrix and null rod are more absolute. its gotten to the point where Im muliganing hands w decent mana production but supresor is the only turn 1 threat. chains and eye of chaos are BOMBS in most match ups. supresor is simply not, in any match up. after a week of playing this deck constantly I say supresion field is better off just being metagame slots or some other lock component, maybe null rod.

so what I consider a mature neo-cronstax:
youll notice this looks very similar to the old list. mr. cron must know what hes doing
4 smoky
4 chalice
4 resistor
3 crucible
2 null rod
2 chains
2 chaos
yawgie
draw3
twister
tinker
razor
tsphere
crop
dt
vt
iseal
balance
darkblast
25 standard mana
bring
rekai

[Rapalaman1]

@ Vroman:
Why did you decide to keep tinker and not add the 1 more Crucible?
 Since you mentioned it I have seriously thought about cutting it from my build, except for the fact that I run 1 Titan in addition to my kill conditions and tinkering him out early is worth the slot.
Also, I have been running 2 Null Rod from the get-go and think it fits perfectly in the deck (mostly because it makes Pentavus less of a pain  )

[PipOC]

Vroman's List

Do you really think running 4 enchant worlds in the main is a good idea?  Aside from that, I've found that a huge majority of the time choke is better than ITEOC

[vroman]

chains is not an enchant world, though thats fairly obscure reason to not run more of a card. choke is probably dead more often than chaos, but choke is a more solid lock when it is good. I'll try one of each next.

re: tinker
I think I actualy will be dropping this now. if I could run a 3rd v-tutor effect over this I would. Id rather pay 1 mana to get anything, than 3 mana and drop a permanent to get artifacts. the mana curve of the deck is low enough that cheating costs isnt a big issue, ie razorface is a lot easier to cast than titan. Id consider mystical tutor, now that darkblast is a key answer.

Im dropping b-ring for another 5c land. darkblast is way easier to pull off against welders. rekai I am still running for now. I actually cropped for rekai once when opp had tons of nonland permanents, in order to pump more soot into him.

[Tin_Mox5831]

I've done a crazy amount of testing the last few days, and I really have to echo Vroman's sentiments about Darkblast. Holy freaking crap. The Dredge isn't the drawback. It's an added ability. Seriously, with some Welders (My current list runs 2) and a playset of Crucibles, the odds of milling something I cant get back are miniscule. One game, I had my opponent locked with Welder out, but I was stuck under my own 2Spheres. Like a champ, I Dredged DBlast, milling Karn, Titan (My flavor-of-the-week creature slot, maybe something new this week.), and something I didn't need. I think it was an extra Chains. That mill ended the game. Wicked! As Vroman already said, if you can make black, at least consider this card.

As far as a creature goes, anyone consider giving the brand-spankin' new Nullstone Gargoyle a try? I'm going to try it this week, as soon as I get my playtest partner to trade me one. He costs one more than Titan, can still be shopped out, and functions as an effective lock component. (How many spells can an opponent afford mid/late game vs. Stax anyway?). He's big enough to hold his own, and you can weld him in if he finds his way to your yard. I know he's expensive, but so is Titan. Plus, in Type 4 you can tutor him up with Grozoth. Isn't that what really matters? 

Later,
Dave

[cssamerican]

As far as a creature goes, anyone consider giving the brand-spankin' new Nullstone Gargoyle a try? I'm going to try it this week, as soon as I get my playtest partner to trade me one. He costs one more than Titan, can still be shopped out, and functions as an effective lock component. (How many spells can an opponent afford mid/late game vs. Stax anyway?). He's big enough to hold his own, and you can weld him in if he finds his way to your yard. I know he's expensive, but so is Titan. Plus, in Type 4 you can tutor him up with Grozoth. Isn't that what really matters? 

I played a game just a few minutes ago versus someone using this, he tinkered it up turn 1...and I lost. The sad thing was I had Balance in hand, but I never could play the damn thing because that card's effect bought him enough time to completely lock me out of the game. However, after looking at the card, I think it would be fairly weak in most circumstances. Think about it, you opponent will wait for you to cast a spell on your turn, let the Gargoyle counter it, then cast their instants on your turn without penalty. Plus, I don't think it really shores up any weakness, Razormane at least helps versus aggro, though it might help if I can remember to keep cards in my hand to pay the upkeep (I have already lost two game tonight on MWS because of that).

[Tin_Mox5831]

That's a very good point. The one thing I can see though, is that we have a slightly different opinion on the Gargoyle's niche in the deck. It seems that you feel he is a card to buy you time to set a lock, whereas I feel that he's the icing on the cake. I think he could be very effective at making a tight lock into an impenetrable lock by nullifying that single Rebuild, Rack & Ruin, etc. that would otherwise provide the opponent an out. As I said, you have a solid point, I just want people to understand where my opinion of the card is coming from.

Thanks for the input.

Later,
Dave