Dark Confidant: The key to aggro-control? UB Fish Tempo

[Arvid]

In the Mishra's Factory/Standstill version blue is superior, in the other versions white could IMO actually be better. I mean, what do you want to FoW anyway? Chances are big it can either be Seal:ed or StP:ed and the white cards costs 1 card instead of 2. You'll lose Stifle but Shadow of Doubt replaces it. The only downside is that FoW can be played before you've even played your 1st land, like countering opponents 1st turn Trinisphere, while the white cards can not.

[xrobx]

@ambivalentduck & Das Boot:

Most of what Chalice does requires that it come down turn 1.  Unless you KNOW you're going first...  And the decks most affected by it now run multiple maindeck Gorilla Shamans.

Uncounterable is irrevelent.  You like it when your creatures are Force of Will-ed.  You get card advantage.  It's only bad if they get Drained.  Mana Drain takes TWO turns to come online.  So if you go first, you have two turns before Mana Drain comes up.  Other Fish builds use the Vial to get two colored mana creatures (Meddling Mage) out under Mana Drain with few moxen.  We don't need that

I think you missed the point.  The uncounterable is quite relevant, as it applies to chalice.  Read the card, and you'll see that it COUNTERS spells played with CMC equal to the number of counters on it.  Hence, you are able to drop 1cc, 2cc, 3cc critters under it with a vial.  This IS the synergy between chalice and vial.  It stops your opponents from playing 1/2/3 mana spells, while you in essense, still can play them (with a vial).

Now, to set things straight, on the deck being built more Ub or more Bu, it depends which direction you want to take the deck.  YES, FoW is necessary in ANY competitive type one deck running blue.  How else do you beat turn 1 plays?  Most of you should know that turn 1 is THE most important turn in the game.  Often times, it strictly comes down to "I win if I go first, but most likely not if I go second."  I'm not saying this is the particular deck in case that demonstrates that point (the Win on the first turn), but this deck GREATLY is influenced by that simple theory.

IE.  I go first; drop delta, fetch a sea, cast duress and take a relevant card.  I then assess the situational chalice in my hand, and see that at 0, I would impede my opponents game plan severly, as he is playing let's say some sort of combo (tendrils, belcher, whatever).  Had I gone second, the chalice for 0 may have been useless (by that time his 0cc's may have already been played, so a chalice@0 only impedes MY gameplan) and my duress may not have a target anymore.  The obvious example shows turn one is important.  What may be even more glaringly obvious, and important, is the fact that 30-35% of most decks manabase is constituated of 0cc artifact mana!  So let me ask you this, if there was a card called "Erasedland", and happened to be an artifact land, but its text read "artifacts with converted manacost equal to 0 cannot be played", most decks, especially fish, would love this card.  Chalice is just that, and much more.  It allows you to decide what portion of the opponents deck can, and can not be played.

Based on this concept, the deck can go in two directions; both of which MUST have an efficient way of abusing turn 1.

With my current version, I'm running chalice and vial.  They both abuse turn 1 to some degree.
With the moreso black version, aka Bu, you'd likely want to run rituals that shoot out threats/disruption.  However, this version simply shouldn't support the control mechanisms that are prevalent in the Ub version.  Again, chalice @ 1 ruins many decks, especially those running multiple rituals.  The same applies if you ran the off-colored artifact mana, and chaliced for 0.

Null rod is a great card. However, it certainly does not belong in a deck running multiple moxen/jittes.  That should be fairly basic knowledge.  For 2 mana, and not at instant speed, you can afford to run more effective cards; ie. edict, stifle, brainstorm, daze (which is extremely useful in most any matchups), tutors (demonic, mystical, consultation, merchant), etc.

Chalice allows you to gain tempo and card advantage because you are effectively "countering" 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, even 12 cards in your opponents deck by playing it at a targetted range.

The shortcomings of this deck, atleast in my experience with the Ub version, is its inability to cope with other aggro.  This is obviously only relevant to specific metas, but here, StP seems much stronger than anything Ub can offer.  StP is a defining card in most any metas; if you have no use for StP, Ub looks great!  If StP is very useful, Ub seems less optimal.

[J J P]

@JJP:  No, it is not bad.  Nabbing two cards one of which has to be blue on the first turn is a great trade.

I once had the same oppinion, playing fish a lot changed it though. When playing a deck relying on a kill through a relativly low number of small creatures you often won't be happy getting one of them countered or neutralized in some other way. Cloud of Faeries + Standstill worked because people didn't believe that lousy 1 damage per turn could spell their doom. Get the fish player's creatures and you get him.

You are playing against decks that eventually will overwhelm you because they have way better threads. Eventually they do overcome your disruption. Every creature and every freaking point of damage you can get through matters.

[Onslaught]

After reading through the responses since my last post, a few relevant questions sum up the deck:

Is Fish even a deck worth playing under ideal circumstances? If so, is Dark Confidant strong enough to go the U/B route? Stronger than the walking hate packed into the White utility creatures?

Speaking of White and Dark Confidant, is a B/W build stronger than the blue variants listed here? And as another user brought up, should "mono-black" Fish be considered solely because of the Confidant?

----------------------

At this point, I don't know if any small sized creature based strategy will work without the likes of Kataki, Samurai of Pale Curtian, and the rest (True Believer, Kami that kills enchantments, and so on). This branches off into two decks, one of which is relevant to this thread: A) UW Fish with Meddling Mages or B) BW "Fish" with the Dark Confidant and White utility.

Furthermore, the best way to utilize Confidant could very well be mono-black, though the stigma attached to Suicide could be too great to overcome.

-------------

I will continue when I have had more sleep with more lists and results.

[Das_Boot]

Well, first of all, Confidant isn't really a huge reason to play mono-black.  A relatively painless splash of white or blue really doesn't tax the manabase at all.  That said, here is a chart because charts are fun of B/W vs U/W (the cards exclusive to each build)

B/W
Top-notch:
Chains of Mephistopheles
Dark Confidant
Withered Wretch
Duress
Cabal Therapy

OK-Good:
Phyrexian Negator
Mesmeric Fiend

U/W
Top-Notch:
FOW
Meddling Mage
Stifle

OK-Good:
Gilded Drake
Daze
Standstill

I think that Black is a deeper color, with its cards easily capable of forming mono-black (although I agree with you, the stigma really is unpleasant), but that there aren't a ton of benefits with playing mono-black.  The problem with Black and B/W is its weakness to topdecks and really really early brokenness.  The coinflip matters far more with that deck too.  UW also uses Vial so much better than Black.  Blue just really only gives FOW and Mage though.  Maybe a Bwu?  Vintage is low on Wastes right now.
Mana (24)
4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Swamp
2x Scrubland
1x Underground Sea
2x City of Brass
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Lotus
3x Moxen
1x Lotus Petal
1x Dark Ritual

Creatures (16)
3x Kataki, War's Wage
4x Meddling Mage
4x Dark Confidant
4x Withered Wretch
1x Phyrexian Negator

Other (19)
4x Chalice
4x Chains
4x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Swords to Plowshares

Obviously the mana isn't great, but card for card, the deck is very good (at least on paper).  It is heavily skewed towards beating control, but if you want to beat Workshops, Fish isn't a great choice.  SB would include Shadow of Doubt, Pithing Needle, Jitte, Stifle, Negator, Kami of Ancient Law, Energy Flux, and Daze as options.  Kataki and Chalice sort of have dissynergy, but if you have Kataki and a relevant Chalice, you are winning anyway.  This pretty much loses to decks like FCG too.  Null Rod remains tempting because Chalice is almost dead on the play and Null Rod lets the deck be a little more reactive.

The mana is heavily skewed towards stability, City of Brass and more duals are decent options if you aren't expecting Wastelands.
The creatures are AMAZING.  Every one is amazing disruption (except obviously Negator) and has at least two power to boot.
The disruption is also really really good.  Daze and Stifle are also serious maindeck contenders.

I'll test this list some and see if playing Mage and Withered Wretch in the same deck is viable, and if so, if it is as good as it feels in my head.

[Onslaught]

In theory, three color is the "best" of the builds. Obviously in practice the loss of stability in the mana base degrades this. The question here is whether or not the risk of a three colored mana base is worth the increase in overall power.

For a long time in extended I played "Fiends." Negators, Infiltrators, Ramosian Sergeants, Whipcorders, and Meddling Mages. Considering this was extended, a Vintage deck with Vials should be plausible. The biggest hangup in he deck will be the BB of the Wretch, but in combination with Vial and a black heavy base it might be OK.

Meddling Mages, Dark Confidants, Withered Wretches, and Kataki would be the primary creatures. Samurai of the Pale Curtain isn't necessary with Wretch around, but True Believer and Kami of White Law are still something to consider. Also, While Kataki is obviously good in some matchups, his drawback against your own Vial in many dead matchups may make him more trouble than he is worth.

I like the list Das Boot made of what top-notch cards each color gets, and here is a modified look at that.

UW Fish: White utility creatures, Meddling Mage, FoW, White Removal (STP, Seal, Disenchant)
UB Fish: Dark Confidant, FoW, Wretch
BW: Dark Confidant, Wretch, White Utility Creatures, White Removal
Mono B: Dark Confidant, Wretch, Chains of Meph, Dark Ritual

I wish this was a case of each one acheiving similar goals in different ways, but that doesn't seem to be the case. UW clearly outclasses BW and seems like a more stable version of UB.

At this point, if I were solely setting out to make the best use of Dark Confidant, it would be in a mono-black "Fish" packing 4 maindeck Chains. If I wanted to play the best build of Fish against a diverse field, I'd use UW. If I had a VERY heavy gifts metagame, I would switch to UB.

[Das_Boot]

I honestly think that a 3-color version is workable, especially since 2/3 of the top decks don't use Wastes.  Kataki really doesn't have dead matchups, except maybe like FCG which you lose anyway.

I think comparing our two charts that it is obvious that I value Black more than you do.  I consider Duress/Cabal Therapy and Chains as almost auto-includes on that list, while you don't have them.  I think that Withered Wretch is better than Meddling Mage also.  However, I think that good versions can be made of all 3 color combinations.  I actually prefer the BW version though, because really, I prefer STP to FOW in these decks.  FOW puts huge design constraints on the deck and still is rarely better than Swords.  They both mean you don't lose to a topdecked Tinker, but one also eliminates the possibility of Welding and, vitally, is not a 2 for 1.  I actually think Daze is better than FOW definitely when paired with Black at possibly when paired with White, depending on the list.

I think we are at a point where, with Black and just Fishy decks in general getting far more really good options over the last blocks, almost every color combination imaginable is capable of coming up with the 12-16 utility creatures and 12-16 solid disruption spells that we call Fish (Just look in the first page of this forum).  This makes it amazingly more complicated to come up with an optimal Fish list like U/R was at first.  Not really going anywhere with this, just saying that it is probable me and you might just end up agreeing to disagree on Black and Blue's relative power in these decks.

[BruiZar]

I can tell you this, im already playing a 3 color version and will be killing with it soon at eindhoven grandprix (i hope).

Its very doable

[Buttons]

I love fish, to a certain extent.

I think the aggrocounter mentality is amazing, and it really is an invented gametype.  However, in this enviroment, Fish will never be an optimal deck for only one reason, really-

The deck rolls to Stax.

And I hate to say that, because I would like Fish's matchups to be as great as you said they are, but honestly, 50% of the time against a good Stax player is just unbelievable.  As in, I can't believe that the percentage of you winning is that high.  I'd say four out of those five were fluke games.  Play 50 games instead of 10, or maybe even 100.

It's arguable right now that Stax is the SuperTier 1 - but I believe it.  Stax is the measure by which all decks will have to stand, and they're going to be growing in number if a new proxy limit is given (up to 15).

I assume you're testing against 5cStax, but what about UbaStax?

The deck would have an even harder, uphill battle.  Granted, Dark Confidant can get around Uba Mask, not only are you STILL fighting a severe uphill battle, but [edit: BECAUSE - I feel like a moron] they run 2-4 Lava Dart in the sideboard.  I don't see a viable option for UB fish against 5cStax, and certainly not against UbaStax.

WONDERFUL ideas though on the black cards that can be added in.  Really, your build is a BU fish, not UB.

[Buttons]

Moreover, why have you opted to not include standstill in your build?  Do you just not have room for it?  I think it's a better card drawing engine than Dimir Guildmage, certainly, and do you REALLY need the discard that Guildmage provides?  I tend to think not.  I mean, it's sorcery-speed.  Although you're forcing them to lose a card, you're forcing yourself to lose counterspell mana.  I just don't think the tradeoff is viable, and I don't like the Guildmage.

I mean, if you're going for discard, why not opt for Hypnotic Specter?  That guy is a house, he's only one mana more (although you can't use trip blue, or even two blue), he has flying, and his discard is free and random.  Oh yeah, and your deck doesn't scoop to chalice for two if you don't have a vial out.  Also, sure, he can't pitch to force, but doesn't his benefits outweigh his detriments?

Two other things:  You say that you don't have room for the Demonic Tutor, and I think that you have plenty of room.

For one, Guildmage and Demonic Tutor are the same amount of mana, and they're both at the same speed.  While they're both 'investments' in a way, demonic tutor can net you ancestral, or, if already used, another standstill.  I just don't understand why you think the Guildmage is better than a Demonic Tutor.  It's really a matter of looking at the 'worst' cards in your deck and throwing 'classic' better ones in to see how it does for a few games.  In my strong estimation, if you were to keep the build the same, but take out a guildmage and throw in DT, you would do much better.  Adding in standstills, I feel would make the deck even better.

The other thing:  Where is Ritual?  I see you have Black Lotus in there, but do you really feel that the possibility of a 1st turn Ritual/Duress/Dark Confidant (or any other creature you have in there) would be weaker than not including them at all?  I mean, it's possible that you could go:  Swamp, Dark Rit, Dark Rit, Duress, Dark Confidant, Dark Confidant.  (Or any combinations of creatures that you have).

That's a pretty broken start, really.  Sure, you put the Rituals in for your opening hand primarily, but if you don't want them there, and I ask this with the utmost of sincerity:

Why the hell is the Lotus there?  The Lotus, by itself, is WORSE.  With the Rituals/Lotus you have a 5/60 (that's 1/12) chance of getting one in your opening hand.  The Lotus, you have a 1/60 (that's a 1/60) chance of getting it in your opening hand.

That's just horrible.  If you're afraid of drawing rituals down the line, aren't you afraid of drawing the Lotus too, and wouldn't it make more sense to cut the Lotus for the Demonic Tutor?

This would be my build, were I to run this:

4 Mesmeric Fiend*
4 Dark Confidant
4 Withered Wretch
0 Dimir Guildmage

4 Aether Vial
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire

1 Demonic Tutor

4 Duress
4 Force of Will
2 Shadow of Doubt
0 Stifle
4 Standstill
1 Ancestral Recall
0 Time Walk

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Swamp
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

SIDEBOARD
4 ENERGY FLUX
Maybe your 3 Chalices
Maybe some Stifles

How much do the Chalices help you?  I might consider cutting one in favor of a Yawg's Will, or all three in favor of Yawg's Will, Time Walk, and Mind Twist (or even ShadowOD).  What would help this deck more?  Yawg's Will/Time Walk/Mind Twist (or ShadowOD) or Three Chalice of the Void...   You could always put the Chalices on the SB.  I'm just not sure what to think.

I had a U/R/B Fish back in the day that did amazing and I only used 4 Black cards - Yawg's Will, Dem Tutor, Vamp Tutor, and Mind Twist.  Mind Twist helps alot more than you might think, heh.

I have some problems with your deck theory, but I think it's a great build, and you should always be reforming and innovating.

Who knows?  Your deck could eventually be the most insane deck anyone has ever seen, and the format will be revolutionized forever because of it - Dark Confidant will be banned, and the words "BU Fish" will be scarred into the memories of many.

You could also play Aether Vial under Standstill, if you'd take out your chalices.

However, it rolls to Stax as is.     Keep working and keep me posted.  Seriously.

[VarienTanafres]

I'm hearing a lot about Dimir Guildmage. He is horrible, but I feel that Dimir Cutpurse is far better suited. 2/2 for 3, and you get hand advantage. Or should I be seeing that as bad?

[J J P]

IMHO the list should look different:

B/W

FoW
Chains of Mephistopheles
Dark Confidant
Withered Wretch
Duress
Phyrexian Negator
Mesmeric Fiend
Cabal Therapy


U/W

FoW
Meddling Mage
Swords to Plowshares
Daze
Stifle
Standstill
Katak, War's Wage
Seal of Cleansing
Disenchant
Kami of Ancient Law
True Believer
Icatian Javeleniers

Why no FoW in U/B? The chance of taking 5 from revealing one is really low.

White has to offer powerful permission effects,  creature removal and all kind of artifact and enchantment hate. Black gives you some discard, draw and graveyard hate.

So why should you play black at all?

[Harlequin]

Im not sure why ppl are so afraid of FOW with confidant.  I am proudly running 4 confidant, 2 Ninja of deep hours (4 cmc) and 4 Force of will (5 cmc) in my UB fish deck.  In my deck Posted on the Newbie forum if you want to see it
Lets break it down:
- Mana crypt deals about 1.5 damage per turn on the average.

Cmc	# of cards	Probability of draw	Prob * Cmc = Weighted average damage contribution
0	23	0.37704918	0
1	17	0.278688525	0.278688525
2	14	0.229508197	0.459016393
3	1	0.016393443	0.049180328
4	2	0.032786885	0.131147541
5	4	0.06557377	0.327868852

Average Damage per turn: 1.245901639
So in even in a converted mana cost heavy deck, It still averages out to LESS than mana crypt.
Also in you add in that dark confindant DEALS 2 damage a turn, then you can see hes winning you the card advantage races AND winning you the damage race.

I would definatly never run Tinker DSC =P  But other than that its not too bad of a card.

[Whatever Works]

I'm hearing a lot about Dimir Guildmage. He is horrible, but I feel that Dimir Cutpurse is far better suited. 2/2 for 3, and you get hand advantage. Or should I be seeing that as bad?

No, your right... Dimir Cutpurse is actually amazing as a 3 or 4 of in UB fish. Also, Cabal Therapy + Duress is like 100x better together then FoW + Random hand disruption.

Consider: There are no real cards worth protecting in fish... Your not going to win a FoW war with any good control player... 5 damage is alot... And most UB fish decks dont have that many blue cards in the list.