Black Fish

[AmbivalentDuck]

I agree that the list is suboptimal.  The relative effectiveness of Mesmeric Fiend is an interesting point, though.  Since it dies to both Darkblast and Pyroclasm, it does little against topdecking.  Proactive disruption is notably much better in the early game.  It seems as though a late game Pyroclasm is nearly fatal as any Mesmeric Fiends dying in the process returns bombs to the opponent's hand.  Also, when going second the opponent is very likely to Brainstorm in response to the Fiend. I'm just trying to find a proactive solution that doesn't die to the same threats we're trying to stop.

[xrobx]

The main reason fiend is any good is simply because of vial.  Without vial, he is an early drain target.  During the opponents draw step after they've drawn one, you vial him in and take something before they react (yes, they can play instants.  90% of the time, however, they will not have a brainstorm).

Withered wretch is obviously a metacall (as is most of the critters in this deck), but I believe WhateverWorks was correct when he said thief is godly.  Thief takes your opponents win conditions better than wretch does, plain and simple.  He also avoids darkblast, and has flying if needed.

[Ozymandias]

Have we considered various Morph Creatures at all? They're a bit expensive to flip, but, they don't let your tempo get stolen by drain. And they can be really strong- anything from Exalted Angel(Hard to get the 2 white) to Zombie Cuthroat as a speed play.

[Das_Boot]

Are you all really having that much of a problem with Drain?  With 4 Duress, 3 Cabal Therapy, and 4 Fiends (almost all the time) that come before Drain mana is up (except if they are on the play and have a Lotus or Sapphire), I think that the current list is extraordinarily resistant to Drain, certainly enough so that suboptimal cards don't need to be played to dodge Drain.

Mesmeric Fiend adds a body to swing and wear Jitte and very good (it is proactive) disruption.  I think it is a very strong card, while not sacred in the deck, I would not go under 9 at the very lowest targeted discard effects, and Therapy is notably worse without a preceding Duress/Fiend.  Pyroclasm on Fiend is pretty bad for you, but you still certainly can be in a good enough position to win.

Wretch is not a meta call AT ALL.  It is simply amazing.  Take the Control Slaver match.  It eliminates two of their three main routes to victory (Welder, a huge Will) singlehandedly.  Just shutting down Will and Welders would make him amazing, but he also pretty much autowins against Dragon, makes Gifts much less effective, and performs many other tasks that make him probably the best card in the deck.

[Leon PD]

I like the idea of a red splash to help against artifacts.  However, the deck that I have in mind  has a different strategy of artifact control/removal  i.e. goblin welder.  In a recent article written by Brian DeMars he stated the shear power of goblin welder in conjunction with mox monkey vs. any other artifact based deck (stax and CS the strongest decks in the format right now)  The red splash variation on the black fish that I propose uses welder both as a defensive tool against artifacts in conjunction with shaman, but also as an offensive tool to cheat equipment costs and bring out powerful artifacts.


14 Creatures
4 Mox Monkey
3 Goblin Welder
4 Withered Wretch
3 Mesmeric Fiend

2 Artifact Creature
2 Duplicant  (against DSC instead of welding him out)

7 Disruption
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
R Mind Twist

7 Artifact/equipment
2 Jitte
3 Mask of Memory (helps dump artifacts and draws cards)
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 toolbox
R Entomb (welder+entomb=tutor)
R Yawg Will
R Demonic Tutor
R Vampiric Tutor

3 Target Removal/artifact drop
3 Firestorm (unbelievable target removal vs Welder and The Mirror)

23 Mana Base
R Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
8 SoLoMoxenCrypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
1 Barbarian Ring (more removal)
1 Swamp
1 Mountain

It's just an idea.  I know that the deck lacks the draw power it may need and does not run chains in it's place.   But I think it has a lot of answers and could possibly stand a chance against some of the decks that are out there.  But then again, what do I know?

[Mantis]

@ Leon PD,
What is the purpose of Crucible in your deck? I have noted the presence of the Bloodstained Mires and the Barbarian Ring but is this enough to justify running 2 copies of CoW? Or are they merely in there to protect yourself against opposing landdestruction?
I suggest adding the strip effects to the deck.

[kras2005]

firestorm is bad because you play small creatures yourself.

i have played versus black fish yesterday on mws. (i play gifts control) it was very close. i lost first game, because he had 3 wastelands and 1 strip mine. one less and i would still have won. second game, i go broken with turn 1 dsc and force backup. game 3 was close again, i was screwed for about 8 turns because of duress and wastelands. but he had no creatures in play. i got back and won pretty easily. the whole game i was afraid to lose.

i don't know if this deck has potential. you can compare this deck most to U/W Fish. not because of the cardchoises, but because it's gameplan is the same, and you have allmost the same good and bad matchups. i don't know which is better.

grt kras

[Leon PD]

Sorry, I meant to run 5 strip affects when I first started creating the deck.  I'll make an edit, but I may have to drop the rituals.

@Kras:

Firestorm:
 As an additional cost to play Firestorm, discard X cards from your hand. Firestorm deals X damage to each of X target creatures and/or players.

Note that it is X TARGET creatures.  Thus you can target just their creatures or burn them to the face while dropping some artifact fat to evade some casting costs.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The moment you cut the Confidants and move a large portion of your threat base to red, artifacts, and lands, you have to explain very carefully how Uba Stax is not strictly better.

[Whatever Works]

The moment you cut the Confidants and move a large portion of your threat base to red, artifacts, and lands, you have to explain very carefully how Uba Stax is not strictly better.

I would go as far to say the second you cut confidants the deck becomes absolutely horrible... Your taking out your confidant draw engine which is amazing, and changing it for a worse draw engine that relies on equipment + attacking, and loses horribly to null rod. Thats a real improvement!

[Leon PD]

Last I checked null rod was targetable by a welder.  But it seems the deck doesn't work.  I was just testing the waters of innovation.  Apparently the test was a failure, lol.

[Dante]

Last I checked null rod was targetable by a welder.  But hey, I guess you guys think the deck doesn't work.  No reason to be rude, I was just testing the waters of innovation.  Apparently the test was a failure, lol.

Dude, don't take it personally.  You threw out your thoughts, untested.  People gave their opinion, also untested.  It happens.

[xrobx]

True enough, and I don't think anyone was particularly rude..??

Wretch is not a meta call AT ALL.  It is simply amazing.  Take the Control Slaver match.  It eliminates two of their three main routes to victory (Welder, a huge Will) singlehandedly.  Just shutting down Will and Welders would make him amazing, but he also pretty much autowins against Dragon, makes Gifts much less effective, and performs many other tasks that make him probably the best card in the deck.

I strongly disagree.  Yes, wretch is great.  He is good against many decks, he does everything you said pretty much.  However, I still believe he is not necessarily the only choice, nor the most optimal choice in all situations, hence, right now he is sitting in my sideboard.

Of the decks listed, he is weakest in the gifts and dragon matchup I'd say.  Think about his casting cost; 2 black mana, which is a very difficult thing for this deck to produce (unless you're going the monoB or ritual route).  This deck wants to drop early fetches, RESOLVE the fetch ability, get a basic (so that it cannot be wasted) and drop a lock component/threat.  I believe the most optimal builds revolve around 2 mana   I'm not putting my list up, but there is a very distinct reason for this, and if you've played the deck long enough you should understand the logic behind the card advantage gained by cards like fiend, daze, standstill, etc etc etc....back on topic; the wretch.

He costs 2 black, harsh.  Not only that, but against a good dragon player, you better have mana open to eat their dragon right away.  In this matchup, they go off faster, thus, you must disrupt faster.  For 2 mana, and a creature (easily disrupted), you present an option to remove a dragon, given you have enough mana.  I'll argue that in many situations, tormods crypt is significantly better.  If it isnt, then why not just run phyrexian furnace??  It has a lower mana cost, comes online faster, can replace itself with a card draw, and doesn't cost mana to remove cards** (yes, the sac ability costs 1).

Also, against a good gifts player, they'll simply ignore the wretch, gift for more cards (ie. brainstorm, fact or fiction, mana drain, force of will, etc) until they have card advantage, then wish away your idiot somehow.  OR they could simply get the tinker in their hand, and cast it.  Wretch does nothing to stop the tinker.

So yes, I believe he is strictly a meta card.  I didn't go into your worst matchups (aggro decks), and in these, he proves quite vanilla as well.  I'm not saying wretch is bad, just not ALWAYS optimal, hence he warrants to be a sideboard card/metagame call.

[Ozymandias]

A surprisingly good alternative to Confidant has proved to be, retro-ly enough, Hypnotic Specter.

Look at it this way: Your deck has less bombs than say, Control Slaver. Anything you draw with confidant is going to be worse than what they draw with TfK or whatever. However, Hypnotic gets rid of those better cards, and evades stupid dorks like Welder/Shaman. And can't be ganked by lavadart-drakbast without serious card disadvantage.

[merfolkOTPT]

Is this still decent at all.  The reason I was looking at this again was actually the Bw or mono black versions possible additions from coldsnap, either martyr of bones or jotun grunt to kill the graveyard for less then withering wretch.  Also grunt helps solve the problem of pyroclasm, darkblast etc cause he is a BIG FELLA.  Just wanted to know if anyone was still looking at this deck thanks. 

[Implacable]

Why are you bumping a post from '05?  If you have a new idea, make a new thread.

[Jacob Orlove]

TMD rules are here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=18027.0

Warning to Merfolk for bumping the thread, plus the poor quality of the post in question.

Verbal warning to Implacable for posting instead of reporting the post.

Closed.