The real Dragon power;)

[dicemanx]

With turn 1 Xantid, your opponent can force it and have also 1 hate, can play brainstorm and take an advantage against you. This advantage is very big if you're playing a deck since CA cards like deep analysis.

Your little anecdotal example is of little value, because the first turn Duress can be FoWed just like the first turn Xantid. Furthermore, Gifts is a savage top deck machine - any business spell they draw after Duress will lead to inevitable card advantage which gets them closer to their goal. Undoubtedly WGD's best plan is to ignore Gifts because WGD is the faster goldfish deck! WGD is a deck full of shitty cards, and your success might hinge on resolving that Intuition or tutor because you might not see another critical business spell in 3-4 turns. Xantids ensure that they resolve so you can goldfish quickly. Getting your Bazaar draw engine online is not very easy (unless you're some sort of savage lucksack and find 2 Squees to go with your Bazaar every game), so playing the attrition game by trading 1 for 1 with cards like Duress and FoW can be a recipe for disaster.

The key of a mirror is bazaar of baghdad and squee, not duress or xantid swarm.

That's stating the obvious. I thought we were debating Duress vs Xantid here? I said, with all things being equal (equal chances at seting up the draw engine for example) the side with the Xantids has a huge advantage.

What is the difference in this matchup, between coffin purge and ray or revelation? Just coffin purge is better, because this card allows to stop the draw engine and ray of revelation, don't do it.

WTF? I don't know what point you're trying to make. Ray is not primarily in the SB to deal with the mirror, its there to stop terrifying cards like Ground Seal, or the rarer Blood Moon or Back to Basics (or even Seal of Cleansings). I am not choosing to run Ray of Revelation over Coffin Purge; if I said I did, then your statement would have merit. 5CWGD can run graveyard disruption too if it so wishes. Again, stick to the debate at hand please.

I desagree again. It depends of your build. If you play non basic land and Xantid versus stax, this is very bad. if you play swamp+duress, this is not the same. You can stop a good turn 1 and show if your opponent have a wasteland for your bazaar or a lot of other stategy clues.
These cards are unneccessary only if you can't play duress in the firsts turns.

Again, you completely miss the point. My contention is that both Xantid and Duress have little impact on the Stax match, which means that they don't add to the debate. Yet you hammer at the point that Duress is better than Xantid in this match-up. Well no shit, of course it's better, but is it *necessary*.

I think that most BUG and 5C players would agree that Stax isn't a problem match up game 1 regardless what disruption base they run unless the Stax/Shop deck gets a nut draw and locks you up very quickly, but there is little sense in trying to do something about that. Your point about playing a non-basic land against Stax being a bad play is also nonsensical, because 5CWGD doesn't play basics . You might have a point that a deck like BUG WGD shouldn't play a dual (or fetch it) to play a Xantid if it had the option of leaving the fetch intact or fetching a basic land, but we're not discussing BUG here.

[Lunar]

Despite the fact that there is a major language barrier here Dicemanx your replies are bordering on very rude....good content, but still pretty rude. 

I can only go off my own personal testing results for the most part on the xantid vs duress route, most tournament reports dont talk too much about what little things won the game, just generally I win statements without talking about the little things...

That being said I can listen to several parties on this issue, one is one of the best players in Europe speaking about his primary deck, the other side is a few hiugh level players in the US who sometimes play Dragon and sometimes post good results with it...do not get me wrong, I value your contributions, I just wish we had one or two super serious Dragon players here where we could find a good standard (like for other combo decks we get to use JDizzle as a basis for comparison as he is generally the only person placing consistantly with his decks) Here there are several players that do well when they play the deck, but dont always play the deck, and dont always play the deck through different metas...I cannot blame anybody for this, sometimes dragon isnt the greatest choice, I just would love to see one guy take Dragon to several large events in different areas and see exactly what little changes are made for each meta...beyond just a theorhetical argument about what is good in what metas...I highly respect BOTH parties in this regard, as the US players have a better grasp of various Metas out here, and I HIGHLY respect Stephane's builds and skills in building/playing the deck. (especially after getting to meet him and play a whole bunch with him a few weeks ago)  I want to thank all of you guys for trying to keep dragon on the cutting edge and keeping it moving. Heh.

Now that I got that little disclaimer out of the way I will go on with my stuff...

In my testing so far I have found no more than one instance where Xantid Swarm would have been better than Duress. However in many of the situations I WAS able to signifigantly slow down my opponent by stripping out an important spell in their hand. Each other instance showed Duress being able to handle things every bit as well as Xantid.

I understand that Dragon wants (needs) to play the beatdown role against something like Gifts, but there is nothing that says that playing duress eliminates this possibility. In fact I find duress to even help this ability by proactivly being able to stop a threat such as first or second turn Tinker, where-as Xantid just sits there looking silly while DSC comes a knocking...Duress IS much more of a control card, however it still heavily supports the beatdown role of Dragon at the same time. Basically Duress gives the Dragon player more options over the course of the game.

The other topic of note here is that the anti-dragon hate im actually worried about Xantid doesnt stop anyways. As a dragon player I would much rather see somebody siding in Blue Elemental Blasts or Disenchants than Ground Seals and Crypts/Furnaces or other such anti-graveyard cards.  Xantid does nothing against a resolved Ground Seal and neither does Duress, but at least Duress can get rid of that Ground Seal early before it ever sees play. Duress supports Force of Will in the deck much better than Xantid could ever support the deck IMO.

As a final note before I let you have at me, is that ANY little boost against what is probably the best set of decks in the format (STAX of various types) is a good thing. Duress gives a better boost against Stax than Xantid could ever do, even if you use the weak argument of Xantid being a permanent.

[dicemanx]

Despite the fact that there is a major language barrier here Dicemanx your replies are bordering on very rude....good content, but still pretty rude.

There isn't as much of a language barrier as there is a barrier to some basic logic and the ability to attack an argument. If someone doesn't bother to read my reply and straw mans me at almost every opportunity, I won't be very kind about it. I *suspect* that Stephane hasn't even tried a 5C build (very similar to how you tried to argue with me on the SCG forums without knowing wtf a 5CWGD build was), so his opinion on the build is something we all must take with a grain of salt.

I understand that Dragon wants (needs) to play the beatdown role against something like Gifts, but there is nothing that says that playing duress eliminates this possibility

If you are using Duress defensively you are not supporting the "beatdown" role. Instead of ripping that Tinker out of their hand, why not resolve a Xantid instead and win on turn 3 before they can kill you? Dragon will never be able to compete with a deck like Gifts in terms of card advantage and amount of disruption, so fighting with cards that trade 1 for 1 is a losing proposition in the long run. I can also tell you that on the Gifts side I am *petrified* of a Xantid, because it means that I will have immense difficulty in stopping their kill and have to pray that I can set up faster than them.

The other topic of note here is that the anti-dragon hate im actually worried about Xantid doesnt stop anyways. As a dragon player I would much rather see somebody siding in Blue Elemental Blasts or Disenchants than Ground Seals and Crypts/Furnaces or other such anti-graveyard cards.  Xantid does nothing against a resolved Ground Seal and neither does Duress, but at least Duress can get rid of that Ground Seal early before it ever sees play.

Xantid helps to fight against something like Ground Seal/Crypt/Furnace by ensuring that you can resolve a stopper against those cards (usually an Abeyance, but a Deed/EE works too; Ray of Revelation is another good option against Seal). I cannot even begin to count the number of games where Xantids have ensured that I would resolve the critical spells post SB to deal with their disruption.

As a final note before I let you have at me, is that ANY little boost against what is probably the best set of decks in the format (STAX of various types) is a good thing. Duress gives a better boost against Stax than Xantid could ever do, even if you use the weak argument of Xantid being a permanent.

You must have missed it, so I'll repeat a second time: Duress is much better against Stax/Shop decks; no one is suggesting otherwise. What is more interesting to me is your first statement, which sounds very reasonable but is ultimately useless. I'd like to hear someone come out and say that Duress made a critical difference in their matches against Stax. From my experience, it didn't really matter one way or another whether I was using Xantid or Duress. If it doesn't improve the match up significantly, then I'd prefer to run Xantids because they are just too strong against control decks (and I understand that some apparently disagree with this assessment too).


On a different note: this debate isn't really just Xantid vs Duress, its really about two things:

1) How many disruption slots is the correct number
2) Which disruption gets priority (FoW, Duress, Xantid, other?)

We have been ignoring FoW, but maybe thats the card that should get the boot. I actually cut FoW quite a while ago already and haven't looked back, mainly because 5CWGD has some very interesting disruption options available to it.

[Lunar]

(very similar to how you tried to argue with me on the SCG forums without knowing wtf a 5CWGD build was),

Possibly because that entire thread was about 3 color dragon builds...you started mouthing off there as well about a build that we werent even trying to discuss at the time. Perhaps if you stopped being a dick for a minute your responses would be better received. Like I said, I value your opinion on the deck, but testing so far has shown me otherwise, at least in my area and my exact build (I still apologise for not having my list up here, but I post while at work and I cant exactly get too involved in posting right now...ill try to get something up soon)

There isn't as much of a language barrier as there is a barrier to some basic logic and the ability to attack an argument

I have met Stephane in person, and his English is pretty rough (but you do good Stephane) From what I have seen here a lot of the discussion is filled with misunderstandings...a number of the posts earlier in this thread were two people arguing the same sides in different ways then finding ways to make it sound like they are disagreeing. Its pretty hard to attack arguments (why do you always have to attack anyways...heh, calm down there dicey...heh) when the language is foreign to you...things are going to come out wrong at times...

so his opinion on the build is something we all must take with a grain of salt

Regardless of whether he has played 5c in tournament settings or not, I suspect that he is still extreemly familiar with the workings of dragon in general, at least enough to be able to lay down arguments about individual card choices. 

Now onto the actual discussion about the deck....

If you are using Duress defensively you are not supporting the "beatdown" role. Instead of ripping that Tinker out of their hand, why not resolve a Xantid instead and win on turn 3 before they can kill you?

Just because you are the beatdown doesnt mean you cannot play disruptive effects that will support your role in the long term. Being able to take an extra turn from Duress nabbing Tinker (since this is the example used...will would be a more important one possibly, or even gifts if the gifts player is in a win now situation early) Duress simply gives you more options. Xantid doesnt always allow you to win on turn 3 before they can kill you any better than Duress often does...this is my experience with it...you can argue it all you like, but my own experience tells me otherwise (and I have to trust to my experience in my area more so than yours or stephanes or anybody elses...)

Dragon will never be able to compete with a deck like Gifts in terms of card advantage

Well early bazaar/squee gives me pretty good card advantage...Gifts is amazing at it true, but since only some gifts builds run Pithing Needle or any other sort of disruption for our primary draw engine, I dont really find myself too far behind most games, and even then it is still pretty close.

I can also tell you that on the Gifts side I am *petrified* of a Xantid, because it means that I will have immense difficulty in stopping their kill and have to pray that I can set up faster than them.

If the gifts player doesnt have the ability to counter the Xantid then they would have lost anyways to any combo deck...The advantage here that I of course have to conceed to you is that Xantid in a number of cases can be a MUST counter for control like Gifts, unless gifts happens to have bounce in hand and can bounce the swarm or something before the attack then counter or otherwise disrupt the combo.

While I am conceding this however I can honostly say that my real life experience hasnt reflected this at all yet. Duress is beating Gifts just as well as Xantid could be, and Duress has probably saved me in a game or two that I might not have won. Gifts so far should be just as worried about Dragon running Duress as Dragon running Xantids, heh.

Xantid helps to fight against something like Ground Seal/Crypt/Furnace by ensuring that you can resolve a stopper against those cards (usually an Abeyance, but a Deed/EE works too; Ray of Revelation is another good option against Seal). I cannot even begin to count the number of games where Xantids have ensured that I would resolve the critical spells post SB to deal with their disruption.

Xantid is good to help resolve Deed and Abeyance I suppose in some cases better than Duress, although Duress still is going to probably get your anti-hate hate through anyways in most cases. If you cannot resolve Ray of Revelation after a Duress (or even without one) then you were hopelessly lost with or without Xantid anyways. (Duress can nab a counter, ray can nab a counter then you still have yet another ray to flashback to get through...if they have three counters then they probably would have simply countered Xantid anyways and you would be in the same boat...)

I'd like to hear someone come out and say that Duress made a critical difference in their matches against Stax

Ill be honest when I say my testing vs Stax with my current build is still largely incomplete. However I can think of a number of options where being able to duress the Stax player going first is a lot better than dropping Xantid Swarm going first...Going Second it might not matter nearly as much, especially if Stax opened with a Goblin Welder and Duress then doesnt really matter except to maybe nab something like Tinker/Thirst...

I still really like having the option of having Duress as a useful card, rather than Xantid as a stupid card thats best role in the matchup is as a permanent to sack to smokestack (which by this time you are probably already losing, or it doesnt matter cause you have enough to win regardless)

My point still is (and im sure you will argue this rudely but hopefully well) that while Xantid swarm is good in the control matchup most of the time, Duress is better in all of the matchups more often. Duress (in my experience) does everything so far that Xantid would have done for me, but also goes a step farther and gives me more options in more matchups...

As to the Force of Will question...Id be more interested to see what replacements you have in mind first before I get too into it. Force is important in a number of matchups, and while you arent going to be winning many counter wars, it is often more than enough to get the combo through for the win or to stop your opponent from going too broken on you.

So would you care to share your other options, or are these options secret tech that you want to hold onto...its hard to debate Force vs {insert name here} Card....

[nataz]

We have been ignoring FoW, but maybe thats the card that should get the boot. I actually cut FoW quite a while ago already and haven't looked back, mainly because 5CWGD has some very interesting disruption options available to it.

I LOVE you for this. I cut FOW in my 5 color builds a while ago, but its nice to have someone else mention it.

[Bulls on Parade]

1) How many disruption slots is the correct number
2) Which disruption gets priority (FoW, Duress, Xantid, other?)

We have been ignoring FoW, but maybe thats the card that should get the boot. I actually cut FoW quite a while ago already and haven't looked back, mainly because 5CWGD has some very interesting disruption options available to it.

I actually advocated that much earlier in the thread, since it's what I've been doing for a while as well.

[nataz]

I actually advocated that much earlier in the thread, since it's what I've been doing for a while as well.

Then I love you too.

But do you love him enough to take it to PM? ;)
-Jacob

[stichadou]

I won't be very kind about it. I *suspect* that Stephane hasn't even tried a 5C build (very similar to how you tried to argue with me on the SCG forums without knowing wtf a 5CWGD build was), so his opinion on the build is something we all must take with a grain of salt.

http://www.solomoxen.com/?page=7&id=6&menu=1
#6

http://www.solomoxen.com/?page=7&id=17&menu=1
#2

As you can see, I never played 5c in tourney. I just tested it with fompetitor friends.

And as you can see, I made some top 8 with xantid's build. These builds are so old and so bad for now, but when I'm talking about Xantid, this is not only theory. I don't show these results for my rank or to show my name in a top8 , just to show that i played Xantid in tourney.
Xantid+fow or Xantid+ duress.

So yes, i never played 5c in tourney. Of course, i don't want to lose my dci points:) I need these points for legacy;)
But i worked a lot about the choice: Xantid versus duress (or even fow).

If you are using Duress defensively you are not supporting the "beatdown" role

Is there a button to say: WRONG!!!!
Of course, it's totally wrong. You can play duress defensivly because you play bazaar. A duress can stop your opponent during a couple of turns, and with bazaar you will gain a lot of tempo, card advantage, ans so the game.
If you see a good hand, you can stop the broken hand or discard fow to win for the next turn. I just remember you that when you're playing dragon, your opponent can't be full taped because you play necromancy.

[Disburden]

I am sure that everyone posting on this thread has seen the Zombie deck created by REanimator. It uses Life From the Loam as an engine to pump out critters and crush your opponent. Now, my question is, does any expert on Dragon think this card has a space in the deck. I certainly do, and I am trying to test it right now. So far I am running the 5C mana base with Xantids AND Duress. Also you can free up land space to add Strip mine with a few Wastelands to achieve a COW lock with LFTL. Wasteland hasn't been an issue since I have been Dredging my deck to death and comboing out anyway.

I am just surprised no one has mentioned this card in this thread. I am also by no means an expert on Dragon though either.

[UR]

I've been thinking about Life from the Loam as a possible subsitution for Squee. It essentially does the same thing (for the Bazaar) and it opens up slots for... whatever you need really... Although I'm not exactly sure how many I would want to play. Right now I'm thinking about two.

The problem is that your opponent can just 'lock your combo out' with a Meddling Mage or at the very least stall for a turn with a counterspell. Krosan Reclamation also comes to mind...

Just so you know, I can't be considered an expert although I do play the deck regularly.

[Disburden]

Although your idea sounds interesting, I doubt cutting Squee can be beneficial for the deck. When running LFTL in my Dragon build I noticed something. You can not run four or even three of them effectively in the deck. I myself just moved it down to two copies. Drawing one first turn just sucks and I would much rather draw Squee in its place. I never thought he was a dead card in the deck, whereas Loam is pretty dead early on unless you can afford to play it for nothing all because you can bury it early.

I still don't like that play.

Even if your land gets wasted/Stripped on the first turn you can always recover, Dragon always has been able to, it's later on in the game where you need Loam to get your lands back in a pinch.

WithOUT Force of Will I have been running this disruption list with some success:

3 Xantid
3 Duress
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Wasteland
1 Strip mine

With 5c lands you can fit in the Strip effects.

The problem with this is when your opponent goes broken first turn, you pretty much can't do anything about it. I never liked Fow in Dragon though, I never ran enough blue to pitch for it. I believe this makes the deck more dependable on just going broken like Long or other combo variants without Force of Will.

[UR]

Same here, I don't really run enough blue cards to justify the FoW, but I still keep it and throw some in the first game. Then I just side them out and have them think I'm still running it. Sometimes it is succesful, but again, I don't think I can fully justify it.

About FltL, I like the fact that you can just Intuition for; Wordgorger Dragon, LftL, Bazaar of Baghdad. It just sounds sexy. Putting that many combo pieces into the places you want them is just good. Although I've discussed this with several people and they have all told me that you just can't cut Squee... I'm beginning to agree that my experiment is likely to die a rather brutal death. Maybe I'll just put one in there and see how it goes. All I have to do now is find something to cut (Compulsion seems like the logical choice).

[MaxxMatt]

@All.

In order to support the ideas and the deck's configuration proposed by Stichadou, I would like to add this link with another good result of a Dragon build similar to the one he played since 1 year.

While this testify nothing in an absolute way of thinking, it can open a bit more the mind of people who bllindly watch at results and decks played only in their regions of competence.

It is a good deck with an high resilience to hate.
It can only win in a field not prepared to him.
It doesn't auto-scoop to Mana-Denial or Graveyard Hate and it can combo out the opponent faster than you think.
Basic Lands + Fetchlands are >>> 5C-Mana Base for known reasons.
The tutors and the solutions and the defences of that deck are really worth his trying.
I really appreciate a lot this deck and I can state to you that it isn't stopped even by maindeck-hate.

I can do an example based on my own deck.
I play Gifted with Furnaces and C.Wishes maindeck. Respectively, 2 and 3.
With the large use of 0cc artifacts, playing both of them is really simple, quick and effective.
Against Dragon, I was sure of being nearly unbeatable.
On the other hand, I cannot go over 60% with lucky draws.
Bazaars and Compulsions and Duresses and Stifles and FoWs and all the things playable in that deck, can win games by themselves, regardless the opponent's threats/answers.
Post side I can shut-up his Bazaars or Compulsions or Winners, but he can shup-up my mana base with the good use of Titans and Stifles abd maybe Chalices.

I would take into account this deck exactly as it should be considered: A Not so Played Tier1!

Maxx

[Tobi]

About FltL, I like the fact that you can just Intuition for; Wordgorger Dragon, LftL, Bazaar of Baghdad. It just sounds sexy. Putting that many combo pieces into the places you want them is just good. Although I've discussed this with several people and they have all told me that you just can't cut Squee... I'm beginning to agree that my experiment is likely to die a rather brutal death. Maybe I'll just put one in there and see how it goes. All I have to do now is find something to cut (Compulsion seems like the logical choice).

Why not cut one Squee for one copy of LftL?

[Disburden]

About FltL, I like the fact that you can just Intuition for; Wordgorger Dragon, LftL, Bazaar of Baghdad. It just sounds sexy. Putting that many combo pieces into the places you want them is just good. Although I've discussed this with several people and they have all told me that you just can't cut Squee... I'm beginning to agree that my experiment is likely to die a rather brutal death. Maybe I'll just put one in there and see how it goes. All I have to do now is find something to cut (Compulsion seems like the logical choice).

Why not cut one Squee for one copy of LftL?

I cut Compulsion for LFTL and haven't missed Compulsion at all. I think it's the right card to cut for Loam. The Dredge mech can help you out a lot more than anything Compulsion does.

[Tobi]

With only 17 blue cards, cutting Compulsion may cause problems for your ability to use Force of Will...

[Disburden]

With only 17 blue cards, cutting Compulsion may cause problems for your ability to use Force of Will...

This is correct, but then it leads me to what I posted about earlier on this very same page.

I no longer run Force of Will. I feel it has been inefficient in the deck for a long time now and is just placed into lists because of tradition/lack of severe innovation within the deck itself. Compulsion has been considered weak, like force of will, by more than just me also.

Why keep them?

I have been running 3 Duress and 3 Xantids main, a long with bounce spells. I haven't had much problems with winning without Force. Fact of the matter is, when I ran Force, I had a dead card in my hand too often. A clunky 5 mana costing spell without anything to pitch for it can just plain suck outright. Chances are if you do have something to pitch, it's an important spell you want anyway.

Like Lim-Dul's Vault.

This card is always great to dig deep into your deck, with such little blue spells; why would you want to pitch it to force when, in a lot of cases, the threat you're forcing could've been bounced anyway with Chain of Vapor/ Hurkyl's Recall? If you are running the five colored version you can also fit other hate, like Seal of Cleansing and Balance.

Other cards you use to pitch are:

Intuition (Too important imo)
Ancestral recall (Why pitch this?)
Time walk (again)
Lim-Dul's Vault (You need this to dig for combo pieces)
Sliver Queen (if you run her, she is a win condition that you can't lose)

I didn't mention Compulsion because I cut the card, and when I did run the card it was the card most frequently pitched to Force of Will. I didn't have a problem pitching it because I thought it sucked and didn't miss it anyway.

[stichadou]

I think you forgot somethings.
When you play dragon, you never counter an ancestral recall turn 1.
You play combo and you counter only very important spells.

Compulsion is useless when you have a bob and youropponent doin't play wastealnd, so versus gift or t1t, you can pitch compulsion easily.

Intuition is useless when you kill in the turn. This is the same for ancestral recall, sliverqueen nad every other cards.

In this optic, stifle are useless versus gift.

Deep analysis is very good but you can pitch it when you have to counter something.

versus stax, sometimes you have in play a chalice or a trinispher or somethings that doesn't allow you to play some blue cards. This is not rare to pitch a stifle under crucible+strip, because there is a trinispher or to pitch a hurkyl's recall because there is a chalice at 2.

And you don't have the choice versus combo, if your opponent have a broken beginning or a turn 1 kill, you need fow. Even if you pitch an ancestral recall. Countering is better to lose.

[goobafish]

When you play dragon, you never counter an ancestral recall turn 1.

I do not think this is true whatsoever. Countering a turn 1 ancestral can be very important against many combo decks and possibly control decks. Never say never, sometimes ancestral is key to thier hands and you need to call it by what you know about thier deck.

[MoxMonkey]

I think you forgot somethings.
When you play dragon, you never counter an ancestral recall turn 1.
You play combo and you counter only very important spells.

Turn 1 Ancestral from a Combo deck is a Very important spell.  As a Control Player I am happy to see my turn 1 Ancestral Forced by Dragon 90% of the time cause that means you most likly have nothing else to protect your combo and fear me top decking into More counters or business.

[yespuhyren]

I believe Cappy is talking more along the lines of a deck like Grimlong than Dragon

[MaxxMatt]

I cannot be more confused by some answers that Stichadou received here.

-Cutting FoWs?
-Analyzing entire decks only with "statistical methods"?
-Counting cards' number instead of cards' function?
-Playing FlatPlan.dec instead of DecksWithASpin?

How can Dragon win without being able to have different SAFER victory plan against DIFFERENT decks?
MtG isn't only filled with the three or the four different ( but in the end... NOT so different ) Tier1s.
They are important but they are not "the-end-of-the-game".

I can be sure that when Stichadou plays with his Dragon, with an open minded game plan in his head, he usually CHANGE the cards' usage at his own advantage.

He states that it usually not counter a First Turn Ancestral.
In my mind, it instantly become useful because BoB are an Ancestral each Turn and because his FoWs are only 4 and he had to minimize his usage to maximize their impact.

He states that he is glad to pitch different things during DIFFERENT matchups.
In my mind, it is a clear testimooniance of his knolwedge of the deck. He perfectly knows WHEN and HOW to use ALL the single cards in his decks, not because it is playing the best DRAgon deck all around, but because it is one of the few people that played ( almost ) THE SAME deck during the different metagame's shifts AND HE RESULTED victoriousus with it in a lot of different situations.
IMHO, you should Force things:
1) When you are going to lose
2) When you are going to win.
In both the situations you are OBLIGED to do such an operation, regardless the valor of the card that you are going to Pitch out of the Game.
On the other hand, THE DECK ITSELF, let you apply such a plan, almost forever, because he had:
-Massive Drawers
-Uncounterable Drawers
-Plenty of cards to sacrify
-Protections optimized with the minimum mana available.
-Huge difficulties to hate, ESPECIALLY WITH HIS WISE CONFIGURATION.

Would you Crypt out his grave? He has Stifles
Would you counter his Tutors thinking of BoB? He can have one into his hand and tricks you
Would you counter his Drawers? He has BoBs and Squees that are almost encounterable.
Would you Needle his BoB? He can use Compulsion to win OR play Sundering TItan and change his  winning plan with ease.
Would you play without Duresses AND a Control-Game? He could play a game building his god-hand in four or fiev turns, without fearing a quick kill.

Is it a God-Like.dec? Absolutely no, because MASSIVE hate always kill his combo ( Try to think about Wu-TAng and his pletora of answers against Dragon ), BUT feel free to dislike it at all or being unprepared to it and you would ALWAYS lose against THAT DECK.





From my perspective, Stichadou is a wise player.

Being able to counter things is better than lose entire games

but none here, seems able to transmute this beatifull talent into a positive manner.


Back to the past years, when Chalices were all around, Trinispheres were a "4of" and Crypts were THE DRAgon HATE of choice, none would have played a configuration different from the one that he proposed.
Basic Lands and BLue Cards, coupled with Discard effects and a quick kill.

If you want to play against Control.dec and win you can use Xantids
If you want to play against MW.dec and win you can use Sacred Grounds
If you want to play against Combo.dec and win you can use Vaults and quick/cheap Tutors.

BUT

If you want to play and win against ALL of them you should use the more balanced configuration available.
If you want to play against an opponent that do good things with his cards AND you woud still be able to do something, you should play the most universal answers available.

Stichadou and me ( and I hope, even other Dragon players ), are correct to think that THOSE cards are universal, more flexible and stable than ALL the other ones played with different Dragon's configurations

Don't play flat or hatable decks.
This is my dogma.


MaxxMatt

[Buttons]

1) Xantid over Duress improves all control match-ups. Early Xantids allow you to set up faster than your opponent. You cannot neglect WGD's goldfish speed! I think the best game plan is to lower your horns and charge instead of concerning yourself with your opponent's gameplan.

Umm...Stax.  Duress is MUCH better against Stax.  "Oh, look, you have a smokestack and just enough mana to play it.  DENIED."  Xantid's don't do anything against THE MOST DOMINANT DECK in the format.  I mean...how did you miss this?

I agree that Xantid's are better, don't get me wrong - I just don't understand how you can say that they're better than Duress in EVERY matchup.  They're not.

He said all control matchups. As in, decks with counterspells.
-Jacob

My bad.  I guess I just didn't see control.  Stax is control in a way though... 

[UR]

Over the weekend I have been testing LftL for Dragon but I didn't end up cutting Compulsion for it. I cut my FoWs for Duress and LftL. I must say that it feels good (until I get whacked at the next tournament) because... I dunno, it just feels right.

The Compulsion is still on my 'watchlist' since there has been only one occasion (ever) that it has been useful to me (besides pitching it to the FoW) and that was when my opponent had a Pithing Needle in play naming BoB. Although it saved me that time, it usually just gets countered (maybe that counts as being semi-useful since they aren't countering important stuff) or it just sits there doing nothing because BoB does the job better.

So I'm thinking about cutting it for one of the following;

Intuition (currently running only 2)
Echoing Truth (I'm already running Chain of Vapor but I want to get around Chalice for one sometimes and thisis just a lot more versatile than just that. Certainly more versatile than Compulsion)
Duress (although 4 Duress and 3 Xantid may be overdoing it a little)
Animate Dead (I'm currently only running 6 animate effects in a 1,2,3 set-up)

What do you guys think?

[stichadou]

Duress (although 4 Duress and 3 Xantid may be overdoing it a little)

Two weeks ago, you could. But for the moment this coice is bad. Grim tutor is very strong. i think in a short time a lot of combo come back and fow is better in this case.

To MaxxMatt:

Tank you for find enough time to test the deck I think you translated very well what i 'd like to say. This is not easy to explain some tricks or advantages of a deck in a foreign language.

[Dante]

Intuition (currently running only 2)
Echoing Truth (I'm already running Chain of Vapor but I want to get around Chalice for one sometimes and thisis just a lot more versatile than just that. Certainly more versatile than Compulsion)

What do you guys think?

Why would you care about Chalice for 1 (unless they already have chalice for 2 and 3)?  None of your key combo parts are CC=1. 

Running two intuitions is like loading 2 bullets in a 4-slot gun.  Run 4 - it's one of the most powerful spells in this deck.  Especially with ways to shut off your Bazaar becoming more popular, if you use the Bazaar once to get the dragon, you can still win if they shut off your bazaar/compulsion (provided you play 2 kill conditions).

[Komatteru]

Running two intuitions is like loading 2 bullets in a 4-slot gun.  Run 4 - it's one of the most powerful spells in this deck.  Especially with ways to shut off your Bazaar becoming more popular, if you use the Bazaar once to get the dragon, you can still win if they shut off your bazaar/compulsion (provided you play 2 kill conditions).

Regarding Intuition, this is the thing to keep in mind:

Anyone who runs less than 4 Intuition doesn't know how the deck works.

[UR]

Possibly, but two has never bothered me since you only need one to end the game. But I'll cut the compulsion for an Intuition and see if it drastically improves the deck.

There is one card that costs one mana and is in my kill. Ancestral Recall. The Eternal Witness combo is my primary kill (with an Ambassador to back it up. I'm not running enough red mana sources to justify the Shivan Hellkite although I do think it is the best kill.

[MaxxMatt]

Why would you care about Chalice for 1 (unless they already have chalice for 2 and 3)?  None of your key combo parts are CC=1.

There are a couple of tricky situations around which the Dragon player can't win with a CotV for 1 in play.

Think about an opponent that pull out a CotV for 2 and 3.
You are ALWAYS able to build your god hand in a couple of turns thanks to Duresses, Bazaars and Compulsions.
You are able to play any protection spells
AND you can play Stifle and the Trigger of the CotV to let him resolve AT LEAST ONCE, but that would be enough to win.
You can Stifle the Trigger's ability of the Dragon and play itself without losing all the permenents.


CoTV for 1 don't block ANYONE of your key spells, but it blocks ALL THE "escape plans" that usually let you win around the hate.
With a single CotV for 1 in play, you can play all the other GODLY GOOD spells BUT you cannot check the opponents hand, you can't play two of your best tutors ( Vampiric and Mystical ) and you have to try to win instead than play for the victory.

UR and his Witness-Ancestral's kill explain another situation during which the CotV for 1 can block you better than the ones for 2 and 3.

There are HUGE differences when you are the Dragon player ( and not the opponent ), watching at those two situations:
From my perspective, both of them are really difficult to win, especially if you don't have an active Bazaar in play.
On the other hand, the first one can be used at your own pleasure, especially if the opponent feels itself sure of being the winner.

[Dante]

Why would you care about Chalice for 1 (unless they already have chalice for 2 and 3)?  None of your key combo parts are CC=1.

There are a couple of tricky situations around which the Dragon player can't win with a CotV for 1 in play.

Think about an opponent that pull out a CotV for 2 and 3.
You are ALWAYS able to build your god hand in a couple of turns thanks to Duresses, Bazaars and Compulsions.
You are able to play any protection spells
AND you can play Stifle and the Trigger of the CotV to let him resolve AT LEAST ONCE, but that would be enough to win.
You can Stifle the Trigger's ability of the Dragon and play itself without losing all the permenents.


CoTV for 1 don't block ANYONE of your key spells, but it blocks ALL THE "escape plans" that usually let you win around the hate.
With a single CotV for 1 in play, you can play all the other GODLY GOOD spells BUT you cannot check the opponents hand, you can't play two of your best tutors ( Vampiric and Mystical ) and you have to try to win instead than play for the victory.

UR and his Witness-Ancestral's kill explain another situation during which the CotV for 1 can block you better than the ones for 2 and 3.

There are HUGE differences when you are the Dragon player ( and not the opponent ), watching at those two situations:
From my perspective, both of them are really difficult to win, especially if you don't have an active Bazaar in play.
On the other hand, the first one can be used at your own pleasure, especially if the opponent feels itself sure of being the winner.

I was thinking about it from the Dragon perspective, because that's the perspective I usually play the match from. 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, other than:

- if the opponent has Chalice =2, and 3 out, then also having chalice for 1 hurts.  Yes it does, but at that point almost any deck is going to be hopeless.

- If you ONLY use the Witness kill, yes, then chalice for 1 hurts.


As a Dragon player, I've never lost to a Chalice for 1.  Frankly, if someone put out a chalice for 1, I'd thank god it wasn't for  2 or 3, and then use my good 2 and 3 CC cards (DT, LDV, Intuition, bazaar + animate, etc) to win.  Since I don't play Duress, the only real part of my build that it would hurt would be Ancestral, Vamp, and Xantid.