The real Dragon power;)

[stichadou]

Anyhow - I came in 9th at Worlds in 2004.  I had full power + null rods in the side. Guess what moxes let you do - cast turn 1 Null Rod!  Against decks that it matters against (like Belcher), turn 1 null rod or chalice for 1 gives you enough time to win.  Against my matches vs Deathlong and Belcher, turn 1 Null Rods (both powered by Mox pearl) were the difference between winning and losing (Chalice helped as well, but they could have gotten out from Chalice).  You don't want to give those decks an extra turn NOT to drop that bomb.  Running full power and Null Rods are not mutually exclusive.

I agree with you. I have just 5% less than you to do the same;)

Maybe, rather than posting your decklist, saying "I won this stuff", and expecting us to fawn over it, you could tell us what your environment looks like and why you chose certain things.  You start to do this, but then every time criticism comes up, you get defensive and lash out.

My metagame in France is:
Uba staks (20%)
Gift.fr ( 20%)
Fish ( 20%)
Bazaar deck (15%)
Oath (10%)
Cotrole slaver (5%)
Staks 5c (5%)
This is very approximative, but I think it's very close to your rate, except for STAKS 5c.

On a more constructive note, do people thjink that the addition of Darkblast to decks like Control Slaver and Gifts (preboard from what I'm hearing, especially in CS) are going to lessen the impact of Xantid Swarm?  XS is huge in those matchups, both in terms of winning if resolved (and a decent hand to go with it), as well as being a surefire way to pull FoW.

XS and duress are a very interesting discuss, but in France, a lot of deck are built with welder hate (because of XS, Controle slaver or STAKS). Controle slaver is doing a come back, and XS couldn't be as good efficient as duress. I think my bad english stoped me in my argumentation.

You re right. For me, some choices are evident, because of my metagame. I got defensive, you re right, srry

[Matt-216]

Well, to begin i'd like to point out that, for a deck to work it is dependent on the metagame(no secrets there)...

So as an example here in canada(quebec to be exact) dragon can't make t8 unless your packing 4 xanthid swarms, 4 duress and 4 fow...and even then... so we kind of stopped playing it (except for a few pple like me who just wont give up and get an occasionnal T8)

So, in some enviroments, 5c dragon will be better than U/B dragon.

5c dragon
-heavy stax
-heavy nonbasic killers
-more or less some control
-with the bazaar and the amount of card drawing, the fact that the mana base is colorful doesnt really matter
-Some new players may make bad decisions and that could cause them to lose some game

U/B
-well at first glance it seems a bit more stable
-it is often a good choice for non-iniated players because you dont necesseraly have to make lots of decision
-Somehow can be more fun for the non-initiated


basically its kind of a meta choice and i believe that all versions can be good...just depend on the environnement

[the boogie man]

So you are saying that the only reason U/B is a consideration is because noobs may screw up? There are no other factors?

[stichadou]

There are a lot of others factors, of course.

But, when I say, mana base is better in u/g than 5c, some people say: "there is ground seal". They never say that uba staks plays ray of revelation or cleaning seal, for exemple.

when I say duress>>>Xantid swarm, some people say: " no, because XS allows to win, because gift can't destroy XS".

I think, each version has his default. Of course, Ground seal is very very good versus staks, but that is not enought for a splash in my opinion. Of course, XS is very very good when you can kill turn 3, but it's very bad when you have a quite good hand.

In the same way, play only 3 mox is very good to have black and blue, and not colorless, but this is very bad versus combo, because you can't play turn 1, chalice at 1 or null rod.

This is easy to play dragon. Why? just because sometimes, the deck wins alone, like staks with trinisphere, six month ago. But, sometimes some games are not easy and I prefer to have a regular deck, and I find mine more regular. I prefer to have questions about the turn that I have to play hurkyl's recall to ask me if I have enough counter on my gemtone to play a spell;)

I thnk a 5c version is a very very good idea, but for me some cards are not good. I repeat, for example, XS or compulsion. Some ones are very good like ground seal or crop rotation.

It will be very interesting to try building a 5c dragon without these "bad" cards, isn't it?

[cssamerican]

I thnk a 5c version is a very very good idea, but for me some cards are not good. I repeat, for example, XS or compulsion. Some ones are very good like ground seal or crop rotation.

It will be very interesting to try building a 5c dragon without these "bad" cards, isn't it?

It is obvious that for whatever reason you don't like Xantid Swarm, and thats fine. I personally think its great, but I will admit there are very good reasons to run Duress instead of it. However, the comment about Ground Seal is the craziest assertion on what card should be run in a deck I have ever seen. Ground Seal is one of the worst cards you could possibly run in a Dragon deck, since it kills you own combo! Maybe something is being lost in translation, but for some reason I find that highly unlikely.

[the boogie man]

I believe he meant sacred ground.

and I believethat it is one of the cards that makes 5c dragon playable. against stax, this is gg.
also, in regards to duress vs. xs, why not run duress main, being less dead, and xantid in the side, since they completely negate the oponent.

[stichadou]

I believe he meant sacred ground.

yeap, you're right,lost in translation

[Purple Hat]

ok, I haven't played much recently...or at all since gencon, so I'm just gonna cover the reasons I ran 5c dragon at gencon rather than the 3c dragon build that I was planning on running. 

a note on my tournament preparation: I prepare to play two decks for any tournament, a main choice and an audible deck.  Initially I was going to play CA at gencon because I wasn't planing on winning and the deck was fun and powerful, I swapped to dragon because I kept losing to rich shay in testing.  my audible deck was Dragon because I knew it well and had been playing it to good finishes in the north east.

I think 5c dragon worked for me at gencon for the following reasons:

1) dragon has issues with wasteland no matter what colors you run.  being worried about losing tempo to wasteland costing you a game is silly.  dragon loses to wasteland when it hits bazaar and you can't find another one.  if you look at my list I'm only running 3 cards that have two mana symbols in their casting cost.  With the exception of some VERY strange games (hardcast big creature) you're basically looking at needing to produce U or B mana once a turn.  if you can do more than that it's fantastic, this opens up plays like tutor--->win the game, but the main point is that you always need access to U or B and up to two colorless, but the most you'll ever need unless you're really up against it is UB.  so essentially it's ok to treat your lands like lotus petals as long as you can be assured that if you need B you don't rip a land that produces U. 

2) sacred ground and other sideboard cards.  Swords to plowshares for example.  it's narrow, but it is VERY good at what it does (kill DSC).  I played 5 color to have access to VERY powerful narrow cards that I'd never want to play main deck.  the difference between 5c dragon and UBx or UB dragon isn't in the main deck.  with the exception of win conditions and mana base you should end up with almost the exact same deck.  There's room to mess around around the edges, which is why you can adapt dragon to tons of metagames but for the most part metagame adaptation with dragon involves two questions: 1) what's the best wincondition for this meta, 2) what's the best protection for this meta.  pithing needle might change some of that, I'm not sure, as I said I haven't played in a while.

3) play style.  5 color dragon fit my play style and mentality better.  I wanted to be playing fast and loose.  I thought that a more aggressive approach would have a better chance of winning against decks like stax and gifts.  I wanted to be the beatdown.  I don't play cards like deep analysis because they're controlish cards, they play for the late game.  that's not how I play dragon the majority of the time.  yes, it is important to recognize the games that are going long and play in that direction, but overall, when I play dragon, I want the game to end on turn 2-4.  1 turn to play bazaar, 1 turn to tutor, 1 turn to win.  fit in protection when you can, but for the most part the formula is to find the right order of these elements and go from there.  that's how I play.  so when I play 3 color I lose games to just not playing slowly enough.

I have to run out, but these are some of the reasons why I played 5 color dragon at gencon.

Hale

[Bakes]

Yes I agree that red is not a need to a good dragon deck, but the green is needed-- I think that xantid swarms are key in this deck because you definetly need to protect you combo. When I used to play dragon I would almost always make sure that I had a swarm on the table before I would go for the win- it is to risky without it. Another key card that green uses is crop rotation, bazaar needs to get out fast for a quick win. Last off, you may want to run 1 more animate spell to make sure that you have enough.

[prometheus829]

I hate to be the devil's advocate but...

If the largest difference between ub and 5c dragon is just sacred ground, has anyone considered running ubw dragon?  This opens up other possibilities too, like weathered wayfarer and orim's chant.

[Gabethebabe]

Stichadou (and any other willing to comment): will Imperial Seal take a slot in Dragon´s MD?

[the boogie man]

the thing is, though, that ubw wouldn't allow you run xantids, which win against control.

[stichadou]

If the largest difference between ub and 5c dragon is just sacred ground, has anyone considered running ubw dragon?  This opens up other possibilities too, like weathered wayfarer and orim's chant.

A french says me the same sentence, and I sayd: " no, it's not a good idea". Now, i think, it's a great idea. But not for Swords Just for sacred ground and why not balance.

Stichadou (and any other willing to comment): will Imperial Seal take a slot in Dragon´s MD?

I didn't have enough time to test it, but I think the card is good, this is a bazaar tutor

Purple Hat

I'm sorry, you speak to good for me, and I don't understand every sentence.
But,

Swords to plowshares for example.  it's narrow, but it is VERY good at what it does (kill DSC).

What is the diffrence between playing a sword or a chain of vapor, in this case??

dragon loses to wasteland when it hits bazaar and you can't find another one

no, I desagree, you lose only if your opponent uses wastelands with COV to destoy your mana base. With mana you can play intuition, animate dead, tutor for bazaar, or win condition cards.

1 turn to play bazaar, 1 turn to tutor, 1 turn to win

I understand your result , this is very easy like that

I agree with you about a lot of points, but i desagree about some other ones. For example, for me and I think a lot of good players, side in swords versus tog is a very big mistake.

I'd like to say something about XS. Who have test it in Dragon? Of crouse, in theory, the card is very good, but it's wrong. This is really easy to anlys the card:

versus: staks or Uba stakds: card is bad, I prefer to have a swamp and play a duress to stop the broken hand than to to have a bayou or a 5c land with an useless XS.
versus gift: it depends. this is my choice but I prefer duress because, gift is very fast and i prefer to have the choice to slow it.
versus gift/oath:: no comment. Turn one XS, and your opponent have played an oath
I prefer to play duress.
versus oath: the same
versus tog XS is better because to destroy it, tog needs to use a Cunning wish and it's very slow.
versus enslaver: i think this is like gift, this is a choice. if you prefer to be agressive or to be sure to win quietly. As you wish.

[the boogie man]

I wouldn't fathom running one or the other. i think duress goes main, xs goes in the side. plus, I'd run pernicious deed, which is a huge boon in this deck. It completely tools aggro and stax, which is also very nice. green also adds crop rotation, which is essential for banging out a quick bazaar when it matters.

[stichadou]

I wouldn't fathom running one or the other. i think duress goes main, xs goes in the side. plus, I'd run pernicious deed, which is a huge boon in this deck. It completely tools aggro and stax, which is also very nice. green also adds crop rotation, which is essential for banging out a quick bazaar when it matters.

have you read my first post??
EE is a very good substitution to Pernicious deed, and sometimes EE is better;)
Duress>>>XS
Crop rotation>>> a lot of things, but this is unfortunatly insufficient.

[prometheus829]

A white splash would include no more than 2 cards main- probably none.  It's mostly sb material.

You get no xantid, but you still have duress.  Chant and abeyence function somewhere in between the two.

Sacred Ground has been discussed.

STP and balance are probably unnecessary because they are secondary to the function of the deck.  Opponent removal >> spot removal.

Basically, a white splash is about having your cake and eating it, too.  It could very well be that the deck operates best when the manabase and spells are streamlined, and all this discussion of pithing needle and wastelands is a result of 'the fear.' 

[dicemanx]

I'd like to say something about XS. Who have test it in Dragon? Of crouse, in theory, the card is very good, but it's wrong. This is really easy to anlys the card:

You make it sound like no WGD decks with Xantids have been piloted to strong finishes. The card isn't just good "in theory". It has been used in tourney winning decks. 

It is completely superior in the Gifts and Control Slaver match ups compared to Duress, as it absolutely *tools* both decks. You misanalyze its impact on Oath as well - you make it seem like playing 1st turn Xantid and them playing a 1st turn Oath is automatically bad for you.  You realize that you have up to THREE TURNS to set up and go off with everything you play being uncounterable because of that Xantid? Of course, never mind the fact that 5C WGD plays Forbidden Orchard, so even if you get off to a slow start vs Oath you can still delay things if you have the Orchard to go with that Xantid.

green also adds crop rotation, which is essential for banging out a quick bazaar when it matters.

Crop rotation is not essential, and I'd never play it. It's already debatable if there is room to fit in Vampiric, let alone its close cousin Imperial Seal, because the deck already runs so much tutoring (4 Intuition, 3 Vaults, Demonic).

If the largest difference between ub and 5c dragon is just sacred ground, has anyone considered running ubw dragon?  This opens up other possibilities too, like weathered wayfarer and orim's chant.

U/B/w makes no sense. Sacred Ground is *not* a major difference between U/B and 5C. To date I've only seen one other player venture out with the 5C build, and that was Hale. We both already mentioned in this thread that 5C has two major advantages to offset the weaker mana base. I'll state them again because they are worth repeating:

1. They ease the casting of both turn 1 Xantid Swarm and turn 2 Lim Duls Vault. U/B/g WGD has trouble doing this consistently.

2. They give you amazing SB options. Sacred Ground is but one of many possibilities. As I explained in my historical account of the development of 5C, one of the star cards was Ray of Revelation. This is a huge card in tooling Oath and their SB Ground Seal. Sacred Ground is pretty decent vs Stax, but keep in mind that there are other strong options that are even more flexible. People have already mentioned Needle. The point is that you have access to any tool needed for your meta.

[stichadou]

Crop rotation is not essential, and I'd never play it. It's already debatable if there is room to fit in Vampiric, let alone its close cousin Imperial Seal, because the deck already runs so much tutoring (4 Intuition, 3 Vaults, Demonic).

  :shock: :shock:

Maybe you prefer sword ??

You make it sound like no WGD decks with Xantids have been piloted to strong finishes. The card isn't just good "in theory". It has been used in tourney winning decks. 

Wich tournament please??

1. They ease the casting of both turn 1 Xantid Swarm and turn 2 Lim Duls Vault. U/B/g WGD has trouble doing this consistently.

Do you mulligan sometimes, or you still have this kind a beginning?

[Rastadon]

Could Sparkmage Apprentice be a new kill spell? In addition to taking down welders, when he's out when comboing off it means game.

[dicemanx]

Maybe you prefer sword ??

Huh? You do not like Vaults, but you play Vampiric and would consider Imperial Seal. Vaults are too amazing not to include.

You make it sound like no WGD decks with Xantids have been piloted to strong finishes. The card isn't just good "in theory". It has been used in tourney winning decks.

Wich tournament please??

Just recently in the past 9 months: top 4 finishes at Gencon (5C with Xantids, played by Hale), SCGP9:Chicago (U/B/g with Xantids, played by Kowal), top 8 SCGP9:Syracuse (U/B/g with Xantids, played by Kadilak) and it managed a 5-2-1 record missing out on making the sudden death rounds in 5C's debut in Waterbury. This doesn't include the smaller local events that would fall under your radar, but as I explained those events aren't any less important. Keep in mind that we have very few players that are interested in piloting WGD in any given event, so any version (5C or U/B) rarely does make an appearance here in North America. This makes the results of these Dragon decks even more remarkable.

The last event that I can recall where a U/B deck did well was top 2 at I believe the TMD open last year, piloted by one of the Canadian players (OldDanoftheSea). U/B is still a powerful build, but its unclear if Duress would be enough to win here in North America. Dragon combo can be pretty fragile at times, which means you need to take advantage of cards that can generate huge virtual card advantage (like Xantid) or that can tutor for two cards at a time (like Vault, which usually fetches Bazaar AND WGD/Squee).

1. They ease the casting of both turn 1 Xantid Swarm and turn 2 Lim Duls Vault. U/B/g WGD has trouble doing this consistently.

Do you mulligan sometimes, or you still have this kind a beginning?

I didn't mean to suggest that both of these are coupled in many of the WGD games. I should have stressed turn 1 Xantid and/or turn 2 Vaults. Clearly there will be games where you don't see these cards early, but those will be the games where you see Bazaar or Intuition instead. The point is that no matter what the business spells you draw initially (or at any point in the game), you want to have no issue in casting them. This of course competes with U/B slightly decreased vulnerability to non-basic hate.

Could Sparkmage Apprentice be a new kill spell? In addition to taking down welders, when he's out when comboing off it means game.

This isn't a viable kill spell, because it needs to already be in play when you combo off.

[stichadou]

3. Why run vampiric over limdulsvault? The vault usually fetches 2-3 missing kombo pieces instead of just 1.
SLOT problem. I like Limdul's vault, but it's too slow. You need two colors, and so 2 lands (except with jet or sapphire, but it's rare). Vampiric allows turn 1 to have a Bazaar. LDV can be counter easier because it's for 2.

Huh? You do not like Vaults, but you play Vampiric and would consider Imperial Seal. Vaults are too amazing not to include.

I prefer to play a tutor to LDvault.  Casting costs are not the same and when you play LDVault, this is really rare to need two different cards. When you play dragon, the best card is bazaar. Every tutor are there for Bazaar and when you play LDVault, this is very rare to find Bazaar+dragon or Bazaar+squee.

Just recently in the past 9 months: top 4 finishes at Gencon (5C with Xantids, played by Hale), SCGP9:Chicago (U/B/g with Xantids, played by Kowal), top 8 SCGP9:Syracuse (U/B/g with Xantids, played by Kadilak) and it managed a 5-2-1 record missing out on making the sudden death rounds in 5C's debut in Waterbury. This doesn't include the smaller local events that would fall under your radar, but as I explained those events aren't any less important.

Good. But for me, top 8 or top 4 is not a victory. In the last 9 months, I think we have in france at least 5 top 8 with u/b dragon. Without XS bur with duresses.

Keep in mind that we have very few players that are interested in piloting WGD in any given event, so any version (5C or U/B) rarely does make an appearance here in North America. This makes the results of these Dragon decks even more remarkable.

In France, we are 3 to play regularly dragon in tournament. We are the 3 firsts in DCI ranking thanks to this deck.

Dragon combo can be pretty fragile at times, which means you need to take advantage of cards that can generate huge virtual card advantage (like Xantid) or that can tutor for two cards at a time (like Vault, which usually fetches Bazaar AND WGD/Squee).

You say, this is important to have Card Advantage and after, you want to play LDVAult. :shock:

The very good question for you is:
" Have you ever play this deck in tourney with a good result???"
Do you think, with your theory and maybe 2 reports, you have more experience than a person who played this deck for 3 years and won a lot of tournament??
I don't know, maybe I'm missing.

[yespuhyren]

Though Peter knows far better than me, as he plays a buttload of dragon, i'm sure he knows that if on your opponents endstep, even if you have 10 life have no bazaar, animates, AND no dragon (which is rare to not have any of the 3), then its still highly possible to lim dul's vault up to 9 times to find a stack that contains ALL 3, and stack them like this

bazaar
dragon
animate dead/necromancy/dance
anything
anything

This would give you the ability to win on your turn immediately if you aren't disrupted.  All in all, I'd much rather tutor for the top 5 cards of my library (as your almost guaranteed to find MORE than 1 card you want) for 1 more mana and up to a few life more, though you can still get a good vault and pay no life.  I'd rather vault twice than cast a vampiric tutor.  The ability is definitely worth the extra 1 mana.

Jason

[dicemanx]

Vault also loops around your entire library - if you're playing against a deck that doesn't deal damage to you, you can go through your entire library once and try again, provided your library is of a size not a multiple of 5. In doing so, you MUST be careful how you keep returning the 5 cards that you looked at. Its quite evident that stichadou is unaware of this, because he believes that it is difficult to find both WGD/Squee and a Bazaar together. He is also under the impression that I contradict myself when I stress the importance of playing cards that generate card advantage (either virtual or actual) and yet I elect to use Lim Dul's Vaults. Well, he hasn't paid attention to the fact that he's already provided the answer to the supposed contradiction himself in pointing out the importance of Bazaar in WGD.  Vaults not only tutor for Bazaars, but they help set up the card drawing engines or find the WGD if you don't have it initially in your hand.

The very good question for you is:
" Have you ever play this deck in tourney with a good result???"
Do you think, with your theory and maybe 2 reports, you have more experience than a person who played this deck for 3 years and won a lot of tournament??
I don't know, maybe I'm missing.

Look, there is obviously no satisfying you. It is clear to me you came on these boards to say that your build is the definitive build, and you are not remotely interested in any sort of discussion. You drift towards accusations of us being anti-European in our comments, only talking about theory without having results to back things up, and now telling me that a top 4 result in a very tough field isn't good enough for you. Evidently I also haven't met my quota in writing enough reports on WGD to satisfy you, because obviously I'm under some sort of obligation to spill the tech every time we come up with a successful update to the deck.

I also like to remind you that if you wish to question my knowledge or experience with the deck, I'd simply like to point out that we invented, from scratch without assistance, the build that you seem to put such emphasis on now. We were PLAYING "your" build (minus the terrible cards you seem to like to include, although there's not enough of them to spoil the deck because even you can win with the list) about two to three years ago, and have SINCE come to the conclusion that U/B WGD is at a disadvantage in a lot of metas, and that Xantids, while not always great, are periodically necessary over other disruption cards depending on how the metagame shifts. Since then, every bit of important tech, from the U/B/g with Xantids/Deed to the 5C revolutionary build from earlier this year came from us Canadians, and were used successfully not only by me, but also a handful of Americans who put their faith in the new builds. 

So, if you want to come to these forums to do some dick waving to tell us that you've mastered OUR 2-3 year old build in your European meta and piloted the deck to many good finishes, then good for you. Do you want a medal?

[stichadou]

Do you want a medal?

No, sorry, I prefer a Beta p9. And you??

In doing so, you MUST be careful how you keep returning the 5 cards that you looked at. Its quite evident that stichadou is unaware of this, because he believes that it is difficult to find both WGD/Squee and a Bazaar together.

Oh, thank you. I forget sometimes the text of LDVault.

Have you ever play the deck in tournament?
Do you think one top4 in Gencon is more representative than 10 top8 with an other deck?
Have you never seen a FCG or a fish in top 4 whereas these decks are not optimal? Maybe like 5c dragon?

You drift towards accusations of us being anti-European in our comments,

So, yes of course. I'm telling you, Dragon u/b won French Vintage Championship and a lot of tourneys in France (more than 50 players) and your answer is: yes, but 5c did a top4 at gencon".
For me:
#1 in a tourney with 400 people is more representative than top 4 with 130 people, isn't it??

I love my country, I love Europe and I love USA, and this is really exciting to discover this country each day, but I don't understand why, for you, your top 4 is more important than a lot of first places in France.

[Moxlotus]

1 thing that is different is France is no proxy I believe.  That means that a large % of the field is unpowered, and therefore much easier matches.  I'd rather play a 10 round tournament with half the people unpowered and playing jank.dec than play a 8 round tournament that everybody can play fully powered versions of decks.

I would also tend to believe that the developers of a deck would be able to tell if a deck they created 3 years ago (I lost to Rich at GenCon that year when he was playing that thing) is good or not.

Any criticism of the deck is met with "i won X tournaments.  you guys suck!"  Well-maybe if you would've played 5-C you would've won more?  Or maybe U/B is suited for your metagame, but the fact that you can't counterpoint any card choices involving 5-color builds.  Sacred Ground makes Stax cry.  Ray of Revelation is huge against Oath and in the mirror.  Now, if you don't see any of these decks then of course you wouldn't need them.  But in a heavy Stax and Oath meta, 5 color stax is the way to go.

[dicemanx]

I'd love it if we had huge 400+ no proxy events over here. It would make things a lot easier.

 

[stichadou]

Sacred Ground makes Stax cry.  Ray of Revelation is huge against Oath and in the mirror.  Now, if you don't see any of these decks then of course you wouldn't need them. But in a heavy Stax and Oath meta, 5 color stax is the way to go

.

I agree with you. 5c is a good idea and some cards are very goods but some choices are very bad like swords or compulsion in this deck.

1 thing that is different is France is no proxy I believe.  That means that a large % of the field is unpowered, and therefore much easier matches.

I think at gencon or at the French Vintage Championship, the rate is approximatvly the same. In Europe, you don't pay 300Euros for a fly to play an unpowered deck. Fly are more expensive in europe than in USA:(The first unpowered was #17, I think.

I'd love it if we had huge 400+ no proxy events over here. It would make things a lot easier.

The same one with 127 players could be easier for me;)

I repeat my question:
For you, Gencon was THE EVENT, even if French Championship accounted 400 players??

[stichadou]

Sacred Ground makes Stax cry.  Ray of Revelation is huge against Oath and in the mirror.  Now, if you don't see any of these decks then of course you wouldn't need them. But in a heavy Stax and Oath meta, 5 color stax is the way to go

.

I agree with you. 5c is a good idea and some cards are very goods but some choices are very bad like swords or compulsion in this deck.

1 thing that is different is France is no proxy I believe.  That means that a large % of the field is unpowered, and therefore much easier matches.

I think at gencon or at the French Vintage Championship, the rate is approximatvly the same. In Europe, you don't pay 300Euros for a fly to play an unpowered deck. Fly are more expensive in europe than in USA:(The first unpowered was #17, I think.

I'd love it if we had huge 400+ no proxy events over here. It would make things a lot easier.

The same one with 127 players could be easier for me;)

I repeat my question:
For you, Gencon was THE REFERENCIAL EVENT, even if French Championship accounted 400 players??

[Moxlotus]

I agree with you. 5c is a good idea and some cards are very goods but some choices are very bad like swords or compulsion in this deck.

Why are Compulsions bad in 5-color but good in U/B?

Also, I don't believe GenCon is the tournament of tournaments.  I believe the SCG and Waterbury tournaments hold more ground than GenCon.  But I do believe it should be respected, much like I respect other large tournaments.  Nobody has said once that GenCon is the absolute most important tournament.  Quote somebody who said it to prove me wrong.  However, it has proved itself at a tournament, and the theory of 5-color for SB bombs seems workable.  As testing has shown for multiple people, 5-color version can be superior to a U/B version in many cases.

[dicemanx]

I agree with you. 5c is a good idea and some cards are very goods but some choices are very bad like swords or compulsion in this deck.

You are changing your story. And now you attack StP? Swords was Hale's idea for Gencon. I think the card is too weak for inclusion personally, but this is a minor detail. I think Hale also felt that Compulsion warranted a slot as a "just in case" card, which I also felt when piloting the deck. I would actually cut the card in the latest iteration of the 5C build, but that's a discussion for another time.

I repeat my question:
For you, Gencon was THE REFERENCIAL EVENT, even if French Championship accounted 400 players??

No, but it (for whatever reason) seems to be a "referencial event" for you. I don't look at any one specific event as a defining point in determining the best version of the deck; my interest lies in understanding how the deck performs against the field REGARDLESS of what event its played in, be it a 30 man event or a 300 man event. Yet you probably think that 30 man (or even 100 man) events where almost everyone is fully powered and playing good decks AND gunning for you with powerful SB hate is automatically inferior to 400 man events that are sanctioned. If you believe this, don't let me stop you in indulging in your delusional fantasies.