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Author Topic: The real Dragon power;)  (Read 39970 times)
UR
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« Reply #180 on: January 26, 2006, 02:04:40 am »

If you are going all-in for the first turn kill, why not put the off-color moxen in there? You will need all the mana you can get.

The problem with a deck like this is that it can't play around the opponent. You will be struggling a whole lot if the opponent is holding a Chain of Vapor. I've tried this approach and I believe I went 2-3 drop with it. But if you can make it work, please let me know.
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cssamerican
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« Reply #181 on: January 26, 2006, 11:20:25 am »

If you tried to run all the moxen you would have to cut important spells, so I just ran the on-color acceleration since that was more important in many cases.

Well, if you expect instant speed removal animate a hellkite and beat down. It might even be advantageous to find enough room to squeeze in a maindeck Anger in order to make this plan even faster.

I am not saying this is the best approach to build a dragon deck in any metagame, but I do think it might be the best way to build it in a metagame that is light on instant removal.
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« Reply #182 on: January 26, 2006, 06:13:47 pm »

Just in case you are wondering Eternal Witness lets you go off without having a permanent red mana source. You just run the loop until you get a  Mox Ruby, Chrome Mox, or a playable land that produces red mana in your graveyard then stop the loop play the red mana source, then start the loop back up and go for the kill.

This requires that you have Bazaar in play though, so you can mill through things, get the stuff in the graveyard so you can get the multiple triggers going....wouldn't it just be easier to run Laquatas so you can go off with something like turn 1 buried alive, turn 2 animate (so either you don't need a red source or play around a Wasteland)?  (Obv this wouldn't be helpful vs Oath)

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« Reply #183 on: January 26, 2006, 06:30:49 pm »

Yeah, you could and that might be better than the Witness. I didn't mean to imply the list I proposed was the best possible build, but rather a starting point if someone wanted to go in the speed direction.
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« Reply #184 on: January 27, 2006, 02:21:28 am »

Be careful of the Clambassador though... if your meta is anything like mine, 20% of the field will be playing Oath with a Gaea's Blessing in there...
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« Reply #185 on: January 27, 2006, 03:13:40 am »

Ambassador + Witness can beat oath at instant speed, using a bazaar.
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« Reply #186 on: January 27, 2006, 03:28:53 am »

Yes, but Dante's point was about those times when you don't have a Bazaar in play.
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dicemanx
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« Reply #187 on: January 27, 2006, 12:54:43 pm »

Quote
DragonBall, by cssamerican

I would suggest trying out variants where you are merging reanimator with WGD. For instance, instead of running 4 Hellkite and 1 Witness (the Witness is probably too weak here), you could try:

2 Hellkite
1 Sliver Queen
1 Sundering Titan

That way when you cast Buried Alive, you can get WGD, Hellkite/Queen, and Titan, and have Titan available for alternate reanimation. This might be relevant against control decks that have the removal; if they have counter-magic and something like StP, Echoing Truth or Chain of Vapor in hand, or Stp etc, they still probably cannot let the animate spell resolve.

I'd even consider trimming 1-2 Animate effects and add more creatures to make sure that the one Bazaar activation will allow you to put on the pressure right away, but maybe all 12 is the way to go. The deck also seems a tad mana heavy at 24 sources; the Chrome Mox and Petal seem especially weak too, and lose their point if you dump Witness.

Maybe the deck won't work at all, but stuff like this needs constant re-examination to see if the meta has changed enough to make it viable. For instance, you can expect FAR less instant speed removal game 1 from any archetype save Fish, which means you can probably keep hammering away with Animate spells without fear game 1.




There's also other ways to build a WGD deck that doesn't use Bazaar at all; the primer might be several years old, but it lists some interesting possibilites as not many new toys have been added to WGD's arsenal since then. For instance, consider this unbelievably rock solid mana base and the flexible instants/card drawing. It's an experimental build and its viability is still questionable, but showcases some of the radically different options for the archetype:

4 FoW
3 Duress

4 Intuition
3 TfK
3 Read the Runes
3 Deep Analysis
3 Compulsion

3 WGD
2 Necromancy
2 Dance of the Dead
2 Animate Dead

3 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Entomb

1 Black Lotus
5 Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
6 Island
3 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand

SB:

1 Stroke of Genius
1 Read the Runes/TfK
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
4 Null Rod
5 other meta slots


This deck can be sped up considerably by removing some of the disruption and card drawing (Compulsion for instance) and adding Ritual/Buried Alive along with one kill creature (probably Aerial Caravan to go with the Cunning Wishes).

For instance, you can alter the above list in the following manner:

+4 Buried Alive
+1 Aerial Caravan
+4 Dark Rituals
+2 Animate Dead

-3 Compulsion
-3 Duress
-3 TfK
-2 mana sources (off color Moxes for example)

Other things to consider would be things like:

Splashing G (ie converting 1-2 of the Islands to Tropical Islands) and adding Life from the Loam and 1 Bazaar, along with a Vampiric Tutor. This way you have 1 uncounterable discard option and many tutors to find it. You also shed the dependency on Bazaar compared to the current 4 Bazaar 3-4 Squee builds, which means that Wastelands and Pithing Needle are no longer that scary. Splashing green also allows for Xantids and SB Deeds.


And finally, there's a third option which I think is terribly underexplored: adding Welders, TfK, and Titans to WGD and turning it into a CA-WGD hybrid. This combination was used as a SB option by the inventor of the archetype and future proponents of CA; however, I have only seen the hybridization in the main deck on two occasions - I ran one in an event a long time ago (there's a report buried in the TMD forums somewhere), and I read about Shane Stoots running such a deck at one of the bigger US events. Here's a sample list so people have an idea what I'm talking about:


2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle

4 Intuition
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Bazaar of Baghdad

3 Squee
3 Goblin Welder
3 Sundering Titan (or 2 with 1 Memnarch)
3 WGD
1 Shivan Hellkite

3 Necromancy
3 Animate Dead

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Lotus
5 Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Glimmerviod
 
Since Welder is just *so strong* these days, it might make a lot of sense to push WGD into such a hybridization. Like UbaStax, the combination of Welder and Bazaar also puts tremendous pressure on control decks, because you might only need to resolve a single Welder or Animate spell to win. This means that casting a 1st turn Welder and not having it countered could be it right there. I added the Needles more recently - when I played this deck I used other disruption since Needle wasn't in print yet.


The SB can be a standard SB, but when I ran this deck I went totally crazy and opted for something aggressive. I did this so I could circumvent the graveyard hate:

4 Illusionary Mask
3 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Survival of the Fittest
3 Chalice of the Void

Masknaught can be a decent option if you don't have the patience to work around graveyard hate or instant speed removal. I added Carpets because they greatly improve the mana base against Fish, and I thought Survivals might be a good idea to add to the tutoring. This kind of SB might not be as good anymore because of the Null Rods increasing in popularity, but its just something to consider for WGD - keep your SB aggressive instead of being forced on the defensive games 2 and 3. 


In any case, some options to chew on. I won't be able to devote much time to developing WGD (or play much T1 for that matter) in the coming 4-5 months, so I figured I might disclose a few of my thoughts on the archetype.


 

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« Reply #188 on: January 27, 2006, 03:24:24 pm »

Quote
This combination was used as a SB option by the inventor of the archetype and future proponents of CA; however, I have only seen the hybridization in the main deck on two occasions

sorry...im confused here...almost every Cerebral Assasin list ive seen in tournament action (including all of my own top 8s) have had both dragon and CA win conditions MD...Eastman even switched over to having dragon MD extreemly early on in the development of assasin...

maybe I am misreading you? Do you mean Dragon running CA stuff instead, cause cerebral assasin has had dragon in the MD for quite a long while now (figurativly)?

Quote
but its just something to consider for WGD - keep your SB aggressive instead of being forced on the defensive games 2 and 3.

This SB is fascinating though...I have always found trouble when forced into the control role in games 2 and 3, defensive is not really where these decks want to go if at all possible...running a mask win rather than anti-yard hate options is intruiging..
« Last Edit: January 27, 2006, 03:27:56 pm by Lunar » Logged

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« Reply #189 on: January 27, 2006, 03:56:29 pm »

Quote
sorry...im confused here...almost every Cerebral Assasin list ive seen in tournament action (including all of my own top 8s) have had both dragon and CA win conditions MD...Eastman even switched over to having dragon MD extreemly early on in the development of assasin...

maybe I am misreading you? Do you mean Dragon running CA stuff instead, cause cerebral assasin has had dragon in the MD for quite a long while now (figurativly)?

Perhaps the problem is that I have seen so few CA lists - my impression was that few ran this deck as a "true hybrid" and it was either piloted with WGD in the SB or some WGDs were tossed into the existing CA frame. For instance, here's exactly what I mean:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=20135.60

Is this a WGD-CA hybrid?

Eastman tossed a solitary WGD and a Witness into what is still essentailly a CA deck. Running 1 WGD and 4 Animate spells is not giving WGD enough weight for this to be a true hybrid - WGD is an ancillary component to the deck, but not one of the main plans of attack.

For the deck to be a true hybrid, both plans should be readily available for pursuit or you risk losing the benefit of having two radically different plans that cover each other's weaknesses but share synergistic effects (such as Bazaars and Intuitions). For instance, in Eastman's build, to actually succeed with the WGD combo he has to reach 3 mana and resolve an Intuition, get a Bazaar in play and keep it in play, and then find one of his 4 Animates. The WGD plan is not a reasonable goal to pursue from the outset, but rather its an option that might present itself randomly and allow you to steal games.  Now this doesn't mean that the build is automatically inferior to a true hybrid - the build has certain CA elements that allow the deck to maintain better board control (Trike, Balance) or give options for locking things down (with a card like Portal or Platz). WGD-CA pulls away from that and exchanges better board control for a more consistent instakill plan. Whether this plan is better is impossible for me to judge right now. Maybe all CA or WGD-CA or WGD decks are equally as terrible in the format right now Smile.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2006, 04:02:12 pm by dicemanx » Logged

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« Reply #190 on: January 27, 2006, 04:04:40 pm »

The Sundering Titan/Sliver Queen approach looks really solid, I am definitely going to test that out. The only problems with trimming animate effects are Spoils of the Vault becomes much weaker, and you need lots of animate spells to fight through opposing Ray of Revelations. Perhaps the better cards to trim would either be the Duress or the sub-par mana accelerators, and I think I would be leaning towards the mana accelerators. Dicemanx, what are your thoughts on adding a lone Anger. It seems like it would be a pretty solid addition in games were you decided it was too dangerous to go the combo route since it would speed your reanimation clock up by a full turn. It might not work to well with the Titan but the deck does run 8 fetchlands to work around this with and in many cases your opponent will have a mountain to target anyway.

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« Reply #191 on: January 27, 2006, 04:23:52 pm »

Okay Peter, I thought that was maybe what you were getting at...you are speaking of a full hybrid rather than just using dragon as an oops I win or back-up plan in the deck...

In some of my builds I would run an extra dragon and 1 or more extra animate spells (generally necromancy) to facilitate the dragon win a tad bit more depending on whether I felt the extra punch with dragon was needed. A "full" hybrid of the deck is a newer concept to me, and one I havnt had too terribly much time to tinker around with..

@ ccs...Anger is an idea ive heard before, and the trick is getting a mountain to stick around in play to give your critters haste...do you want to hit your mana base up with an extra dual to facilitate the card or even a basic mountain if you think you can fit it somehow, if its a dual then I hate taking what could be a basic island or swamp and turning it into wasteland bait...heh..Anger is good though in theory and is juicy with welders though...
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« Reply #192 on: January 27, 2006, 05:31:37 pm »

The Sundering Titan/Sliver Queen approach looks really solid, I am definitely going to test that out. The only problems with trimming animate effects are Spoils of the Vault becomes much weaker, and you need lots of animate spells to fight through opposing Ray of Revelations. Perhaps the better cards to trim would either be the Duress or the sub-par mana accelerators, and I think I would be leaning towards the mana accelerators. Dicemanx, what are your thoughts on adding a lone Anger. It seems like it would be a pretty solid addition in games were you decided it was too dangerous to go the combo route since it would speed your reanimation clock up by a full turn. It might not work to well with the Titan but the deck does run 8 fetchlands to work around this with and in many cases your opponent will have a mountain to target anyway.

The right balance of Animate spells must be determined through testing. All I can say for now is that intuitively 12 is a little much (in light of the fact that other combo cards are underrepresented, which means that on some occasions your animates will be useless if you have nothing to animate), but it might be the right number after all. By the same token you might argue that you should consider maximizing your tutor count, as you aren't running the full complement possible (Vamp and Demonic are missing). I don't know what counts are best. I don't think I'd ever worry about Rays of Revelation; if anything, the best answer to instant speed removal is splashing green for Xantid Swarm instead of upping the Animate counts. You can do this by going 5C with your mana base, so that Titans no longer kill your lands. That way you can also run Rays of Revelation yourself. I'm not suggesting that this plan is superior, but its just something that has to be addressed.

On the Anger issue, I'd probably stay away from the card because this isn't an aggro beatdown deck. Anger will start playing a role once you actually accomplish your goal (Animating a beatdown creature, particularly Titan), and I tend to not like cards that only work once you get "there" but don't assist in getting "there" in the first place. Having a Titan wreck your mountain and shut off Anger is yet another potential issue. Anger gets better with Welders if we're looking at the card from a CA-WGD hybrid point of view, but how important are hasted Welders, and is it worth it to pull away from the 5C manabase and go with duals instead?
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« Reply #193 on: January 27, 2006, 05:39:25 pm »

I would say that Anger becomes a viable choice when you become A: More worried about the CA plan than the Dragon plan, and B: When you want A to happen AND you are worried about welder hate...

one of CA's best points was the ability to run any card...getting to run balance and sacred ground and ray of revelation from white, and red elemental blasts out of red and whatever out of each color was important in the past...

Identifying what is important in you build and your meta should let you know if Anger is appropriate...right now (before waterbury) I am not sure there is a precident saying Anger is needed for your welders...after waterbury we will be able to more readily identify what is important to the build...
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