Single Card Discussion: Darkblast as anti-welder technology?

[rakso]

To clarify, Darkblast can hit a 2/2 with no help right? You stack your draw, Darkblast, then dredge up Darkblast and cast it again? You just need double black?

[silvernail]

@rasko dregde is a replacement effect that may occur when you draw a card. for example i cast ancestral targeting me and it resolves. if i have dark blast in my graveyard i may skip one of the three cards drawn to instead dredge for 3 then i would draw the reminaing 2 ancestral cards with no chance to dredge again because you cant respond once a spell beings to resolve ( if you only have one dark blast that is, with 2 or 3 you could dredge for more than one draw from the same draw effect).

the reason you cant stack your draw and use it with multiple dredges is because dredge replaces the draw so no other dredge  interfers because you arent drawing a card any more.

[cssamerican]

To clarify, Darkblast can hit a 2/2 with no help right? You stack your draw, Darkblast, then dredge up Darkblast and cast it again? You just need double black?

Yes, you can play Darkblast in your upkeep, replace the draw in the draw step to dredge the Darkblast back to your hand, and then play the Darkblast again to finish of that 2/2.

[rakso]

@rasko dregde is a replacement effect that...

Don't rules lawyer a lawyer.

Thanks, cssamerican. Heh.

[Jacob Orlove]

Since it hasn't been made explicitly clear, I'll note that your ordinary draw during your draw step does not use the stack--it simply happens as that step begins.

[silvernail]

errr a misunderstanding on my part, yes you can do what you said rasko, but the things i pointed out are still valid none the less; so as long as you have a dark blast in your hand during your upkeep, you can cast it then  dredge your draw for the turn and DB again killing a 2/2 or 2  */1 guys (welder AND shaman any one   ).

[cosineme]

Since it hasn't been made explicitly clear, I'll note that your ordinary draw during your draw step does not use the stack--it simply happens as that step begins.

yes, so many people don't understand this concept, it's ridiculous.

"upkeep, port your island"
float, go to draw step
draw (something instant), cast, go..."eh...wtf>!"

it's probably because in MWS when you click the draw step, it automatically puts you into 1st main phase, which is not correct...

[rakso]

Since it hasn't been made explicitly clear, I'll note that your ordinary draw during your draw step does not use the stack--it simply happens as that step begins.

Sorry. You know us old codgers. We keep thinking in terms of interrupts and all that.

[Dozer]

Since it hasn't been made explicitly clear, I'll note that your ordinary draw during your draw step does not use the stack--it simply happens as that step begins.

yes, so many people don't understand this concept, it's ridiculous.

"upkeep, port your island"
float, go to draw step
draw (something instant), cast, go..."eh...wtf>!"

it's probably because in MWS when you click the draw step, it automatically puts you into 1st main phase, which is not correct...

... but this has nothing to do with the stack at all. Mana pools are not emptied when the stack is, they are emptied when a phase ends. Both events fall together for the main phases, but not for beginning or combat, for example.

So we see: Darkblast is very good but will lead to rules discussions about Dredge. Heh.

[xrobx]

For clarification....

it's probably because in MWS when you click the draw step, it automatically puts you into 1st main phase, which is not correct...

This isn't true; if you single click the draw step it simply enters the draw step.  If you double click the draw step (or alt-click) THEN you will draw a card because you are telling the program that priority is yours/has passed by the double clicking action.

[prosbloom225]

After playing darkblast in oath at chicago, I have to say, it is awesome welder hate.  It knocks out welder, orchard tokens, and monkey.  Solid as hell, and in oath with the mad amounts of draw effects, you can effectively knock out higher defense creatures if under duress.

[vroman]

darkblast is definitely yet another auto-main deck card if you have the right mana for it. I am going to drop my experimental sideboard tech against drain gifts of stoneshaker shaman bc of dblast. I was banking on gifts still just using pithing needle for welder control and not actual removal. then I played against gifts rd 1 and he turn 1 darkblasted my turn 1 welder. so much for that. the stoneshaker effect is nice, but throwing in additional 1/1 hoser guys seems like the worst possible plan in vintage right now.

[rakso]

To everyone who put Darkblast in blue decks... did you modify your mana base? I tried it in a local tourney today, but I think you need more than a single Underground Sea to support it. I lost Game 2 to FCG in the semifinals because I cast Darkblast off Lotus Petal against a Lackey, but did not have a black source so could not Dredge when he played a second Lackey.

[forests failed you]

Darkblast is so good in the Slaver mirror that it is actually stupid.

[Harlequin]

I also Am fealing the power of darkblast in UB fish.  1 Main deck, 2 side.
I resolved myself to running crucible to get some extra synergy off that (digging for mishrahs factories)
I aslo have a few secrete tech's on the side to accompany the 2 sidebord darkblasts when they come in.  Namely 1 extra crucible, 2 Psychatogs, and Chains of Meph!  Dredge lets you keep your ninjas in the deck while still run chains of Meph.  My deck list is on the Newbie thread if anyone wants to check it out, and play a deck that makes some good use of darkbast tech

[forests failed you]

As extended has already shown us, dredge is actually stupid when in combination with Tog.

I have seen versions of extended Tog winning with Grave Troll in them, simply to dredge stupid amounts of cards. Clearly, this is a great MD card for Tog to play in Vintage.  However, I would probably run Reclaim in the board to wish for, just in case you dredge will into the grave.

[Buttons]

Darkblast is stupid good.

Chicago has taught us that much.

I might be so inclined to say that Darkblast might have been put in Ravnica for the SOLE PURPOSE of making Vintage more balanced.  It's hands-down the best Welder-Removal spell ever printed.

The real question now, for many decks, is:  How many?  It's got dredge, so if you see one of them, it should be enough, but getting two into your hand isn't bad either.

Someone put out their list with 1 Main, 2 SB.  This is probably the right strategy against Slaver (if you have that many in against Slaver, you just win).  But what about Stax?  Should it be less if you're expecting a very Stax-heavy field, or more?  I'm not an expert by any means when it comes to boarding in for Stax with darkblast, as I play Uba.

I would say, just offhand, that it's probably better to have MORE versus 5c than it is against Uba, and that it's definitely better to have more vs. Slaver than Stax.

So really, it might go like this:

If you're expecting alot of SLAVER you would want 4 (2 Main, 2 SB), no question.
If you're expecting alot of 5c STAX (I'm thinking) you would want maybe 1 Main, 2 SB.
If you're expecting alot of UBASTAX (this is probably biast,) you would want 1 Main, 1 SB.

But it probably needs to be refined based on each deck.  I'm probably wrong as I don't play anything aside Uba.

I'm interested into seeing what ya'll do with darkblast, those who run Gifts and Oath.

What should Oath run?
Gifts?
and 5c Stax?

My assumption would be that Oath would do 1 Main, 1 SB,  Gifts would be 1 Main (or 0, actually) with 2-3 SB, and 5c Stax would just be 2 SB.  (Maybe 3, depending on how much the 5c Stax player expects Uba/Slaver/Mirror).  If he expects alot of Uba, the correct SB number is 3 - no question.  Of course, if Uba expects alot of 5c (or Slaver), he just runs Lava Dart.

Of course, that, in itself is liable to change.

Once again, Darkblast is stupid good.

[Dozer]

Gifts would be 1 Main (or 0, actually) with 2-3 SB

Waaaay too many. You want one SB, or in a Slaver-heavy meta, one SB and one MD. Needle maindeck does everything Darkblast does and more. I know I have said the exact opposite before, but unless you can't accurately predict the meta, you should run Needle first. Two Needles and a Darkblast handles everything you need handled. Remember that every Gifts Ungiven will give you a Darkblast if you want it to. That means you have six tutors for it, and one copy is enough (barring Extract or similar stupid shenanigans).

If you ever need more than two Darkblasts, you should start running Pyroclasm.

Dozer

[Buttons]

Well then.  I am really happy to hear that.

UbaStax especially (although I imagine 5c Stax almost just as much) HATES Darkblast.

We don't mind Pithing Needle as much as it would appear.

Cheerio.

[forests failed you]

I'm not actually sure that you would ever need more than one in your deck.

It is so easy to find via Gifts, Intuition, and tutors that you can always find it when you need it.

[Silvios]

I'm not actually sure that you would ever need more than one in your deck.

It is so easy to find via Gifts, Intuition, and tutors that you can always find it when you need it.

I agree with this. Even looking outside of Vintage, at PT LA for instance, shows that with Gifts Ungiven, you can get and abuse the Dredge mechanic with an irritating consistency.  Darkblast seems to be just better as far as killing Goblin Welder, Gorilla Shaman, or Kataki, War's Wage than Lava Dart.

[vroman]

the impact of playing against a deck running darkblast means that, if I opponent has a fetch or black mana, I probably will never cast welder, unless I can immediately follow it up w chalice @ 1 after having already thrown out some counter bait.

[forests failed you]

It is really good in the Slaver mirror, and in Slaver's board in general.

However, I really think that Darkblast could make Psychatog a fairly competative deck again.  Especially if the Tog player were to run Reclaim in the board.  Has anyone else tested this?

[Dralock]

It is really good in the Slaver mirror, and in Slaver's board in general.

However, I really think that Darkblast could make Psychatog a fairly competative deck again.  Especially if the Tog player were to run Reclaim in the board.  Has anyone else tested this?

I have, and have found darkblast to be a really great addition to the deck. Unfortunately, going back to GAT and playing against current decks, I find I am wishing I either had multiple copies of gifts ungiven or oath of druids to really power out a win.

[Silvios]

It is really good in the Slaver mirror, and in Slaver's board in general.

However, I really think that Darkblast could make Psychatog a fairly competative deck again.  Especially if the Tog player were to run Reclaim in the board.  Has anyone else tested this?

I have, and have found darkblast to be a really great addition to the deck. Unfortunately, going back to GAT and playing against current decks, I find I am wishing I either had multiple copies of gifts ungiven or oath of druids to really power out a win.

What really makes 'Tog unplayable in this format, though?  Is it the prevelancy of Stax or is the game just that difficult against a Gifts-heavy meta?  I am interested in playing Tog, but these thoughts have come to mind many times and shrunk away the courage of bringing it to a SCG event.  I can see how Darkblast at least rids your opponent (in the Stax matchup, anyway) of a great deal the options available to it, and therefore opens up your own options a handful of turns down the line.  Keeping a hand of selective permission - thinking Force of Will mostly - and lands, and discarding out draw and such while you wait for your opponent's Stax lock to break their board up after a timely Darkblast could put you in a favorable position again within a few turns.  Am I correct in this line of thinking?  I realize Crucible of Worlds online means you are probably screwed anyway, but still...

[forests failed you]

NO WAY!

Onelovemachine is probably the best 'Tog player out there right now, and if you were to ask him he would tell you that Stax is probably your all around best match up.

How you lose?  Flux and Naturalize in the board, Tons of draw, Wishes game one to kill stuff, and a fast clock.  Your tough matches are probably Slaver and Fish, and Darkblast is an absolute beating in both of those match ups.

[Buttons]

NO WAY!

Onelovemachine is probably the best 'Tog player out there right now, and if you were to ask him he would tell you that Stax is probably your all around best match up.

How you lose?  Flux and Naturalize in the board, Tons of draw, Wishes game one to kill stuff, and a fast clock.  Your tough matches are probably Slaver and Fish, and Darkblast is an absolute beating in both of those match ups.

Well, I don't know about Stax being Tog's BEST matchup.  But 3c Tog made top8 at the 2005 Vintage Championship, look:

This is DEFINITELY the _OPTIMAL_ list, no question about it.  I am _VERY_ impressed with this list, and I was never a big fan of Tog:

Joshua Frankelin – Three-Color Psychatog
2005 Vintage Championship Top 8
 
 
Main Deck
60 cards  15 Sideboard

4  Underground Sea
4  Island
4  Tropical Island
4  Polluted Delta
1  Swamp
1  Flooded Strand
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
18 land

3  Psychatog
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 creatures

1  Mox Sapphire
1  Mox Pearl
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Jet
1  Black Lotus
1  Mana Crypt
4  Brainstorm
4  Force of Will
4  Mana Drain
4  Merchant Scroll
4  Accumulated Knowledge
2  Cunning Wish
2  Intuition
1  Echoing Truth
1  Mystical Tutor
1  Demonic Tutor
1  Gush
1  Ancestral Recall
1  Fact or Fiction
1  Time Walk
1  Yawgmoth's Will
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
39 other spells

2  Naturalize
2  Pernicious Deed
2  Ground Seal
2  Energy Flux
3  Duress
1  Blue Elemental Blast
1  Hurkyl's Recall
1  Berserk
1  Skeletal Scrying
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15 sideboard cards

The Board is solid against Stax, but game 1 is hard.  Stax is starting to board Tormod's Crypt, too, which is obviously a problem.

If you're worried about Stax, Energy Flux is your best friend.  I'm ALWAYS scared of seeing Energy Flux, rarely R&R.  With Ravnica now, too, you can add in 2 Darkblast to the sideboard as well.

The sideboard really wrecks Stax in this matchup, I'm just gonna be honest over on this end.  Game 1, again, is hard though.

[forests failed you]

I've been keeping score.  Franklin with Tog has won his last ten times paired up against Stax with Tog.  Seriously, Tog in the hands of a good player should roll Stax  ----->  If Stax doesn't have the nuts.  But Good Tog Hand should beat good Stax hand.

The Key is that Tog just absolutely punishes Stax when it Drains something.  All of those Intuitions and Cunning Wishes end the game really fast in Game One.  Provided that they are able to resolve a Drain on a spell of consequence.