Chalice in R/G beats

[Ben Kossman]

I've been pondering the most effective way to add effective hate to R/G beats without losing tempo. I'm not a huge fan of Null Rod as it costs two mana
which I'll always want to spend casting a potentially game-winning threat. Spot Artifact removal is a better option in my opinion but is a one shot deal and
is a dead draw a lot of times. So I looked around at the other under-powered decks out there and came to the conclusion that the most effective answer
to the other guy's moxen and Chalices is to simply run Chalice myself and hope I can draw it and play it first. How effective will this be versus Control Slaver,
Gifts, and Stax? In a fully powered meta it seems like the ideal choice since I can kill welder with about 16 cards in my deck and Root Maze and Wasteland both round out a solid disruption suite that should give the tier one decks out there a hard time if not shutting them out of the game completely. Anyway
here's my latest version of R/G for your perusal...

Artifact:5
1 Black Vise
4 Chalice of the Void

Green:16
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Rancor
4 Root Maze

Red:20
4 Kird Apes
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning

Land:19
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Mountain

The logic I'm using here is as follows. Chalice for 1 completely hoses this deck. But Chalice for zero hoses their Chalice not to mention their moxen without costing me the tempo this deck is supposed to revolve around. The main issue I'm having is whether I should run 3 Chalices and a Lotus or just leave it as is.
Every time I've drawn Lotus in testing beyond my opening hand I've had a Chalice for zero in play. On the other hand it's a Lotus and I don't want to be
on the "Ancestrall Sucks" side of the argument. Thanks for reading, I'll post a sideboard later after I determine what I really need to make this viable versus stuff like Welderless Stax.

[Wudil]

I can't understand you.

If you don't even run some solutions to chalices MD like Naturalize, Artifact Mutation (with cmc different than 1 or Gorilla Shaman praying that it resolves before opponent CoTV does) and so on... How can you fight back when a simple card, Chalice played for 1 (2 in the cmc) which is a turn one for every powered deck (with workshop or land and cryptsolomoxen as you couldn't always drop chalice or Rootmaze turn one and also beginning) can hose your WHOLE deck???

My 2cts

[Meanee]

You REALLY need MB artifact destruction!
Other than that, I think there are several other flaws in your build if I may be so frank. Anyway - according to my way of playing (and building) RG-Beatz your decklist seems pretty weak.
First of all, you do not have enough good mb hate (chalice simply doesn't work in this deck if you ask me). If you want to play efficient mb hate, play cards like, pyrostatic pillar, root maze (which you are playing - good), reb, and not least artifact mutation. In all my testing of RG-Beatz I am almost certain to lose against powered decks, if I do not draw on my control-side... Your control-side (as in side of the deck, not as in sideboard) i 4 chalices and 4 root maze - which I think is simply not enough.

In my (semi-powered = 2 moxen) RG-Beatz deck, I play this hatebase mb:
3 artifact mutation
4 price of progress
4 root maze
And the some burn (4 bolt, 3 mancers)
SB:
3 naturalize
3 ice floe (opposing 11/11 indestructible is a shitload to deal with)
3 pyrostatic pillar
3 naturalize

That much hate... I guess it is all about how much "control" you want to be playing, and how much "aggro" you want to be playing. (Uh, but if you want to play aggro, play another deck - this deck is not viable as a semi-pure aggro deck!)

Anyway. I would NEVER consider playing CotV in my deck - firstly because i use moxens to stand a chance, and secondly because it is not strong enough in this deck. The reason why some other budgetdecks plays it, is that they can play a chalice with 1 counter, and thereby stop many tier1 decks (and many many ugly budgetdecks)...

My couple of cents.

- meanee

[cane]

not to forget,
chalice for 0 does NOT stop their chalice for 1
it has a casting cost of 2!
when it's in play, it has a cc of 0, but at that time it doesn't matter anymore
play null rod

[Ben Kossman]

Nope, I'm pretty sure Ch

not to forget,
chalice for 0 does NOT stop their chalice for 1
it has a casting cost of 2!
when it's in play, it has a cc of 0, but at that time it doesn't matter anymore
play null rod

I'm pretty sure Chalice's CC is zero. It says put X charge counters on it when it comes into play. My reasoning here is that R/G beats wants the most efficient
hate available and as far as I can tell Chalice for zero is it. Maybe more MD artifact hate is necessary but I still think Chalice has a place in this deck, especially
since it's unpowered and has ESG for acceleration.

[nataz]

chalice for 0 does NOT stop their chalice for 1
it has a casting cost of 2!
when it's in play, it has a cc of 0, but at that time it doesn't matter anymore

thats correct. Chalice has a cc of zero anytime off the stack, while on the stack it has a CC of whatever was put into it.
i.e., if you drain a chalice for 1, you will get two mana on your next mainphase. 

[Ben Kossman]

Ok fine. I still think chalice for zero is a strong choice in an un-powered deck but your probably right about the MD
artifact removal so I'll add some Artifact Mutations. So when you AM a Chalice with 1 counter you get 1 saproling?
Also you've got to ask yourself. Is it better for this deck to run 2 moxen and a Lotus and risk topdecking them lategame
or to play a card that stops all of their jewelry. Granted Null Rod does this as well but you can't play it turn 1 in conjunction with a real threat, it costs you tempo and is really pretty expensive when you consider the fact that this
archetype is based around 1cc damage dealing permanents. I will MD Artifact Mutation though, it's an awesome card.

[Revvik]

When you resolve Artifact Mutation on a Chalice of the Void with ANY counters, you'll get zero Saproling tokens.  In play, Chalice of the Void always has a converted mana cost equal to zero.
On the stack (while it's being cast, and NOT in play) it has a converted mana cost equal to XX.

[warble]

From my experience, null rod is just better than chalice of the void in r/g.  In a game where chalice needs to be set at 1 or 2 (dragon, CS, gifts, TPS) null rod is worse, but root maze should "fill the gap"  In a game where chalice should be set at 0, running null rod maindeck and 4x chalice sideboard should be almost equivalent.

The difference between chalice and null rod is that chalice is far more offensive, and defensively it is almost a dead card.  I prefer having chalice in on the play and out on the draw, whereas I'm never disappointed by null rod first, second, it always seems to effectively attack the metagame.  If you're playing against goblins, yes you die, but I doubt chalice or null rod would save you.  Having a few maindeck artifact mutations generally is enough of a tempo boost against any artifact-heavy deck when combined with null rod to win.  Simply having chalice changes artifact mutation from a game changing card into a win-more card.

Also, let me address your maindeck.  Aside from the lack of REB, tormod's crypt and rack and ruin, the maindeck looks very versatile...NOT.   All tempo-based decks have a diverse threat and answer level that is simply not present in your deck.  You have to metagame LIKE A FIEND to win with red/green beats.  Not just a little, not just a lot, your deck has to be the red/green monster that everyone hates seeing.  I like null rod because it fits that description, along with root maze, artifact mutation, etc.

Finally, Chalice for 0 hoses 0 decks.  Chalice for 1 hoses a billion decks, but you state you can't drop chalice for 1.  So don't play chalice in red/green.  That is the answer.  You don't have an effective mid to late game drop for chalice, so it can't be run here.

[Moriarty]

If we can now put the Chalice issue to rest, and before we start discussing Null Rod as an additional weapon against fast mana, allow me to ask: Where is Gorilla Shaman? The fact that you can eat moxen and loti with it before they get a chance to use them (thx to Root Maze) is, like, THE POINT of this deck!?

[Meanee]

Well actually we aren't supposed to discuss his built - EXCEPT for his unconventional include of 4 chalice. IF we were to discuss his built, the thread would be closed and some nice mod would say:"Look in some of all the other god-damn RG-Beatz threats..."

Uh, and by the way, I don't think the deck would last more than a round in a powered tournament.

- meanee

[Ben Kossman]

Wow, so a 0cc card that stops all the other guys moxen is actually a bad thing in a deck based around speed and
efficiency. I'm glad you guys cleared that up for me. I'm sure glad I can come here to get expert advice. 
Anyway doesn't fish run chalice and play it with no acceleration? So does Stax. R/G is a deck based around a strong
opening hand. Chalice FOR ZERO makes my opening hands better. Null Rod is in fact a better choice late game but there's not really supposed to be a late game with this archetype. Here's my latest version...

Artifact:3
3 Chalice of The Void

Green:20
4 ESG
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Rancor
4 Root Maze

Red:20
4 Kird Ape
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt

Gold:3
3 Artifact Mutation

Land:14
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Mountain
3 Forest

So the Wastelands seem less necessary than POP since it's the best option for dealing the finishing blow versus stuff
with Dual Lands and is just a great card in general. I also added Mongrel and Artifact Mutation just in case I have to deal with Chalice for 1. I still like Chalice for zero because of it's efficiency even if it's not as good long term as Null Rod. The rods would be great in the SB but with Pithing Needle available I'm still not sold on it. Here's my sideboard if anyone cares...

4 Red Elemental Blast (VS. Gifts, Slaver, Mono-Blue)
4 Pithing Needle (VS. Slaver, Dragon)
3 Umezawa's Jitte (Versus other aggro)
4 Null Rod (OK maybe it's good. I just don't like paying mana for hate cards. CHALICE FOR ZERO IS FREE AND HAS NO NEGATIVE EFFECT ON MY DECK)

I've been wrong before but I've got to stick to my guns on this one. Any fully powered deck would cry when I drop
turn one chalice FOR ZERO NOT ONE...

[Moriarty]

There is some truth in what you're saying about chalice, I guess your initial arguments about killing opposing chalices and welders didn't exactly help your case. Remember that in those fish decks chalice has synergy with both vial and standstill and can be cast for more than just 0 to win games. Viewed as a jewelry hate card alone and as 3-of it might still be worth considering, and in the rare event of an endgame you can cast it for X=3, shutting off will+tinker. The big question is, do this deck really need additional jewelry hate now that maze/monkey lock is back in place? The basic idea of removing strip effects for price of progress also is worthy of a second thought and I would say your deck is ready for testing, as soon as you add at least some of the 5 mana back you just removed. 14 permanent mana is not enough if you want my "expert" opinion.

[Revvik]

If you want it as a jewelry hate card, then by the numbers you're going to want four of them to maximize their chances of coming down on your first turn.  You are extremely dependent on the opening draw and top few cards of your deck.  And remember Chalice isn't nearly as good on the draw as it is on the play, which is what makes it a weak card in this deck.  In a R/G Beatz deck, the fewer the dead cards the better.  If you lose the coin flip and draw a seven-card hand with Chalice of the Void in it, you essentially have a six-card hand.

This isn't a problem with Workshop decks for the obvious reason of being able to cast it for almost any relevant amount.

As for your list itself, you're going to want some strip effects in your deck.  Here's why:

You: Taiga, Root Maze
Opponent: Mox, Mox, Tolarian Academy
You: Wasteland, Gorilla Shaman

Your opponent only has one turn to use his fantastic $600 opening, since your $30 opening will practically eliminate his start at your next untap.  Even if he Tinkers for Colossus (which would make his opening seven just that much better) there's a decent chance of you having Artifact Mutation handy to race him with.  In fact, there are many different things you can do to eliminate the opponent's chance of making the plays that wreck you, and practically anything he does with that opening there is irrelevant.

[warble]

Chalice isn't nearly as good on the draw as it is on the play, which is what makes it a weak card in this deck.

Exactly, Chalice is the kind of card that can be boarded extremely effectively, but has a very high potential to be dead which is why I prefer more stable threats like null rod, tormod's crypt, lava dart, etc.  Speaking of which, you forgot a couple of r/g staples in your maindeck you might want back in:
Black Lotus
Lava Dart

Also, even Stompy is iffy running 14 mana sources, if you intend to run a two-color deck with such low mana sources, none of them can be basic.  I'm serious here, if you intend to unstabilize your mana base by going that low, you need to further unstabilize it by making all 14 permanent mana sources duals.  Sounds stupid, I know, but metagame hate is all about diving in headfirst without looking.  14 permanent mana sources is just that, and making them all duals will further your goal.  Even running 16 lands in mono-green aggro and drawing insane cards with skullclamp (which you don't have in your deck) and with 8 mana elves I still get mana-screwed a buttload(although the mana elves have a tendency to skullclamp themselves which doesn't help).  The possibility of getting mana screwed with a deck that has no draw power is very likely, if you really need the mutation on turn 2 to race a tinkered DsC (you win this more often than not) you can't afford the luxury of 6 basics and 8 non-basics.

Again, there is no card you can include in your deck that makes Black Lotus unplayable.  If you really think chalice for 0 buys you 2 or more tempo, having 1 dead black lotus you have to topdeck is worth it.

[Law]

In the short time I used Chalice in my R/G deck it did nothing for me. While this might seem stupid the mox monkey kept working faster since I kept drawing into it more. Yes sounds stupid might be stupid but the moenky just seemed to do more for me.

So in my eyes I would not use it.

[Ben Kossman]

I've got a viable reason for putting Chalice in the deck now. It becomes more controllish but also more explosive. One guy that's quite
broken but gets no attenion is Orcish Lumberjack. For those of you who don't know...

R
Orcish Lumberjack
1/1
Tap:Sacrifice a forest:Add three green or red mana to your mana pool

In combination with Tinder Wall,  ESG ,and Crucible of Worlds this gives G/R solid acceleration and allows the deck to play
higher CC threats as well not to mention the fact that it negates the loss of tempo from Root Maze. Here's my list...

Jax version 1.0 (Please note this deck isn't trying to compete with Stax in terms of disruption or speed, just make the brutal
hate R/G offers more potent...)

Atrifact:9
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby

Green:19
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Tinder Wall
3 Root Maze

Red:10
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Orcish Lumberjack
3 Gorilla Shaman

Land:22
4 Wasteland
1 Strip mine
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
9 Forest

So what I end up with is something similar to control as opposed to straightup beatdown. Does it have a shot? Only time will tell. I think this has serious potential...

[TheUprisal]

Im kind of liking the Lumberjack for the mana acceleration, but my question is what do you do with all that mana after your creatures are on the table? theres only so much to blow up with Shaman and only so many creatures you can topdeck at a time. 

The Ascetic isn't bad at all.  I think Isao, Enlightened Bushi has potential as well.

(Wishing for some sort of  cheap damage/draw engine...)

[doomhed]

the only reason to run chalice is to have null rods 5-7/8. if you are trying to skip out on null rods, you are making a terrible mistake.

[Ben Kossman]

the only reason to run chalice is to have null rods 5-7/8. if you are trying to skip out on null rods, you are making a terrible mistake.

I disagree. Chalice with the acceleration to back it up is a siginifigantly more potent threat. It's also better when you draw
Chalices number 2 and three as opposed to Null Rod when you have it in play and draw a second or third copy.

[Revvik]

Im kind of liking the Lumberjack for the mana acceleration, but my question is what do you do with all that mana after your creatures are on the table? theres only so much to blow up with Shaman and only so many creatures you can topdeck at a time. 

The Ascetic isn't bad at all.  I think Isao, Enlightened Bushi has potential as well.

(Wishing for some sort of  cheap damage/draw engine...)

Sylvan Library isn't so bad at digging up threats, especially in conjunction with the Fetchlands.  The only problem is that you usually want to be paying two mana to do something more productive, and as a R/G deck you don't have too many turns to give to your opponent anyways.

[[supa_t(im)]]

In my experience of trying to run chalice in R/G is that you NEED vial to be able to set chalice to relevent numbers.  However, by adding chalice you lose some much needed proactive control/hate cards (like root maze).  If you don't, you diminish your threat count and basically aren't aggressive enough.  So, basically, chalice becomes your only source of proactive control, and that just doesn't work.

I also still like naturalize over mutation MD.  My build runs rod, maze, and shaman main, so having some cards to help with some of your bad matchups (Oath and FCG) but also splashes over to artifact decks is very helpful.

[Scoops666]

I also still like naturalize over mutation MD.  My build runs rod, maze, and shaman main, so having some cards to help with some of your bad matchups (Oath and FCG) but also splashes over to artifact decks is very helpful.

I tend to disagree. While the ability to kill enchantments is very good, I feel it is Mutations dual aggressive/ reactive nature that makes it a superior card. Blow up a Smokestack and you get 4 guys to smash face with. Opponent get a quick Sundering Titan? Ok, I'll trade 2 lands for 8 Creatures to smash with. Mutation can cause such a shift in the game state that it seems worth it to allow enchantments free reign.

And then take into consideration that it is one of the only ways the deck has to deal with Collossus. Granted it isn't as good as making them sacrifice it, or RFG, but fogging the big man is usually all R/G needs to take that 1 more turn to charge in for the win.

And to stay on the topic, Chalice doesn't seem that good in Beats because it seems you should be running Mox Monkey anyway. Coupled with the Root Maze, you're opponent should be fairly well denied the mana they need to operate.

[Ben Kossman]

Due to the large amount of acceleration I've decided to replace Mongrel with Phantomn Centaur. He's
ridiculously good particularly vs. Aggro Workshop and Fish. He's essentially a better Juggernaut in a deck that
can easily play him on turn 2.

[Scoops666]

If you were to put in Centaur, Mongrel is far and away the wrong card to replace it with. In a build running 3 jewelery pieces (I count Lotus) and 4 ESG's, he can often come out first turn, and Mongrel can be such a potent threat that often times he alone can win games.

I believe that if you wanted to put in the Centaur, you should remove the Crucibles from the deck. You don't need to go strip-lock on your opponent, the Wasteing lands are simply there to further the disruption plan against your opponent. Spending a turn laying a Crucible over a threat just does not appear to be an effective use of your time. R/G is suppose to play the most efficient threats possible and cause it's opponents cards to function at a lower level of efficiency with is disruption (Root Maze, Wasteing lands, Chalices). Remember, the deck wins off disruption, not imprisonment. You can't play the long game like Stax can, nor the blazingly early game like FCG.

So while I do like the aggressive capabilities of Phantom Centaur, I feel he should be used to augment the Wild Mongrel, not replace him.

-Mac

[silvernail]

the real problem with chalice is that if you dont see it on turn one (or on turn two providing they didnt play moxes on their turn) then the effect of the card is basically dead weight. you cant set it for 1 , that kills most of yuor own deck. setting it at 2 is possible and so is setting it at 3. The problem is you hope to be able to get it and set it at 0 before your opponent can lay moxes and the deck has multiple ways that are much better than chalice to handle moxen with. Null Rod does in fact cost two mana, but it stops all artifacts and moxes alike. Besides that you have your root maze that you want to see turn one or two and you can combine them with your other mana denial ( shamans, wastes ) to really slow the opponent down.

The reason you shouldnt play chalice is because beyond setting it at 0 before moxes hit, the card isnt going to help you in any other way. sure it can hit for 2cc or 3cc, but if your deck is working properly 2cc and 3cc cards should only be on your side of the table, or the table should be cleared and you should be shuffling up game 2 already.

Its an idea to be sure, but not the most viable idea. The deck is a hate deck, but chalice of the void is one of the hate cards you dont want to see, because it can hurt you more than it will ever hurt another deck. Not only does chalice 1 wreck your deck, but drawing chalices beyond turn 1/2 is not going to save you nearly as well as a null rod would.

Adding chalice to this deck is like saying chalice in kobolds combo is good because you can set it at 0 to stop opponent moxes/ Sure you can do that, but your deck suffers from chalice more than slowing an opponent down a turn will help you.

As for the lumberjack and higher cc cards, it might work out to be decent, but you need strong disruption either way.