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Author Topic: Exploring 5C Oath with Ravnica  (Read 2154 times)
Prometheon
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« on: October 22, 2005, 09:25:49 pm »

This is the oath list I've been using for the last little bit to a decent amount of success. Notice I included Tinker-DSC maindeck in order to get more 'oops! I win' factor out of a deck that already runs a lot of tutors.

1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Tinker
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Gaea's Blessing
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Duress
4 Oath of Druids
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Rushing River
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Spirit of the Night
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
2 City of Brass
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta


However, you absoultley never want to Oath up the Iron Giant, because he is slower than Akroma and Spirit. I also hate Chalice of the Void. It's useless a very, very high amount of the time in this deck, and I don't really feel like it adds anything you desperatley need.

Some changes (with Ravnica) I would make would be:

-1 Tinker
-1 DSC
+2 Supression Field

Though this goes against your wasteland straegy somewhat, by the time you have 2 mana to lay down the field, you'll have already disrupted their mana base enough, or you'll have enough to activate your wastes if your opponent kept a mana-light hand. (An awesome play I often make is to Duress away a Mox and then Waste their land. It is often very crippling.) Any thoughts on how damaging this anti-synergy is? Should Suppression Field be run at all?


-4 Chalice of the Void
+1 Balance
+2 Phrexian Furnace
+1 Card (I don't know what this should be. I've been thinking of things fromMisdirec a singleton tion to another Rushing River, to even MD Oxidize or FoF. Any ideas? We probably don't want more than 2 Furnaces here. Maybe another Suppression Field? Imperial Seal? Choke!?)

Chalice is usually free, and all of these cards cost mana, but Furnace can be replaced with Crypt if you want to keep the 0-mana threat level high, and Balance is very very powerful, so the extra two mana is usually worth it  Chalice for 2 is still very rough on this deck, so oxidize seems like an option at the very least worth considering.

Finally, the most controversial (I'm sure) decision:
-4 Thirst for Knowledge
+4 Compulsive Research

This seems insane, but I assure you, test it and you will see that it is not. In my build, there are virtually no instants, and so you don't mind tapping out on your turn, and with the amount of lands in the deck, ditching one of them is usually preferable to searching desperatly for an artifact (especially with the cutting of Chalice.) You're not running Welder, and thus the main side effect of Thirst is negated. This is an Oath deck that taps out every turn, and Compulsive Research helps provide the draw-smoothing (as there is little other pure card advantage present) that it needs to win. Keep your Thirsts in, but every time you cast one, simply ask yourself if you needed to do it on your opponent's end step, and if you would rather discard a land card. You'll be surprised with the results, I'm sure.

Finally, the mana base needs retooling, and this is a monumental task. The cutting of fetches to accomodate more rainbow lands would probably neccessitate cutting brainstorm for Impulse, a change I dont really feel comfortable making. However, just throwing in a Tundra instead of the 2nd Basic Island doesn't really seem like the best solution either.

Do these seem like positive changes to the deck? What other possibilities are there?
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War
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2005, 09:17:36 am »

I'm concerned over the lack of Mana Drain.  Why would you want to cut it?  Its exclusion leads you to be entirely reliant on Force of Will for countermagic.

Suppression Field might be a viable inclusion, but your set of fetchlands is put at risk by including them.  Balance seems very weak in this deck -- you want them to have creatures, remember?  On top of that, it will probably only cause you to discard, as you have very few cards that want to be on the board immediately.

Considering a switch from Thirst for Knowledge to Compulsive Research, I can't support that in any way.  The loss of instant speed (and therefore the ability to search for or bluff countermagic on an opponent's turn) is a critical blow to a control deck -- which I believe is the premise you should be operating under.
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jeremy_78
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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2005, 09:27:20 am »

One thing about suppression field is that it affects your permenants as well.  You run four fetches and a set a moxen, so it will cut these sources off as well.  I know since it is your card you would cast it when it gives you the biggest advantages, but later in the game it will most likely effect you as you may need to fetch for a land.  Second I would probably not run Furnace with SF, as it will be effect also.  I second the motion to note support compulsive research as stated before, instant speed draw is much better because it allows you to bluff drain, which this deck doesnt have but at the same time allows you to draw at the end of your opponents turn freeing up your turn.
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Greenebean
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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2005, 10:22:14 am »

I must also agree with War and Jeremy. Suppression Field literally shuts you down just as much as your opponent. The loss of Thirst for Compulsive Research is just crazy talk. You would be removing and instant to gain what, only having to pitch a land instead of an artifact. This build of yours is contradicted by Suppression Field, SF shuts down your fetches, moxes, phyrexian furnace, etc. Drain is a must because it helps power out your spells just as much as it stops thiers. I would not run furnace either, I made a chalice oath build for P9 Rochester a while back, and it honestly is a dead card most times. I can think of a lot better cards I could use that one mana on most of the time.
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49 Cents
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2005, 10:24:00 am »

Research is born to walk into Drain..

Why the Spirit? We have Razia now. It's better since it does not tap and redirect damage.
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madmanmike25
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« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2005, 11:11:34 am »

I'm sorry, but am i missing something??  Greenebean and Jeremy_78 say that supression field shut down moxes???  Mana abilities arent affected....
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Greenebean
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« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2005, 12:16:19 pm »

Yes, I saw what I typed, I did not realize it until I just saw what you typed, my bad. But Supression Field does shut down their fetches which can spell certain disaster...
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« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2005, 02:23:25 pm »

I have tried a version of 5c Oath, but it is so far from this I won't clutter the thread with it.

I have a couple comments:
1. suppression field should effect 0 cards in your deck (hint: a 5c mana base does not involve fetchlands)
2. you must utilize the best cards from all 5 colors better than you are now (like your inclusion of balance)
3. 5c really shines in the side, where is yours?
4. I know the creature choices are interesting, but I really feel Razia, Boros Archangel is better than Spirit of the Night
5. Lastly, DSC just wins games.  If you go away from the traditional oath styles, then tinker/DSC becomes even better.

Good luck!
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Prometheon
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« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2005, 04:46:38 pm »

The fetches are very very very rarely affected by suppression field, as I'm only running 4. Drain requires double blue, and the deck is not very mana hungry, so it is sometimes difficult to find sinks for it.

There are next to no instants in the deck, so the sorcery speed of Compulsive Research is not usually a problem. Force is free, Brainstorm can be cast whenever and not lose any real effect, and tutors can be cast during your upkeep. The synergy problem between the Field and Furnaces has become apparent to me in playtesting, and I've been considering dropping them in favor of Ground Seal, which is also a nice MD hoser and cantrips immediately. Any thoughts on this?

Balance is a questionable inclusion, but it is used mainly as a hand clearer and a way to destroy excess spirit tokens if you don't get an early Oath. This deck has little card advantage, and empties it's hand relativly quickly while denying mana, so the opponent can often have a stunted start and get cleaned out by Balance.

Finally, a VERY interesting idea I've been having is running Null Rod main. With the Furnaces turned into Ground Seals, the only artifacts that would be run are the moxes and lotus, thus allowing Null Rod to be very powerful. This pushes the deck into a very mana-denying role with 5 wastes, Suppression Filed and Null Rod. does this seem viable?
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the boogie man
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« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2005, 05:31:38 pm »

rather than try to run a control shell with 5c oath, why not adopt a choke oath type of 5c deck? that way, you can run things like choke, suppression field, duress, unmask, null rod, and other things of that nature. Unless this deck's matchup with stax is much easier than I am expecting, I don't think that it is worth it not to run at least three basics/four fetch, and I also think that it is not optimal to run those two city of brass (which hurt, like orchards) in place of an underground sea and another island. Just a question, though: What is your stax match like?
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Moxlotus
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« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2005, 07:50:08 pm »

Impulse is infinitely better than Compulsive Research. Digs deeper, costs 1 less mana, and is an instant. Research is bad.

Field + 5 Strip +4 fetch!=tech. Field is absolutely terrible. Shutting down your own mana and your disruption in an aggro-control deck is probably the worst thing you could ever do.

Also, there is a severe lack of Imperial Seal.

I'm assuming you run 2 Cities because you have Chokes in your board.  If you don't, cut them for another island and Sea.

Mana Drain is absolutely terrible in an Oath deck running 4 Duress.

I like Spirit over Razia because Spirit tramples over Pentavite tokens.  This ends the game much sooner than letting them put up 5 guys, then hitting the Welder, then having to Oath up Akroma (if she's not in your hand), for the beats.  Razia helps against fish-but how many people play fish nowadays?  And how often does it come up that you LOSE if you Oath up Spirit first instead of Akroma.  It's only ever happened to me once out of like 7 tournaments.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2005, 07:53:09 pm by Moxlotus » Logged

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Prometheon
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« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2005, 09:58:20 pm »

The only problem I see with Impulse over CR is that it costs 1 less mana. The reason this is a bad thing is that Chalice at 2 already rapes the living shit out of this deck, with the only real answer being Rushing River. I've been running Imperial Seal as the extra slot, but havn't really been liking it. I've been thinking of cutting it for a single Oxidize, in order to break some of the problem artifacts like Smokestack. Speaking of which, the Stax matchup is all about getting down an early Oath, not giving them a lot of spirit tokens (because if you do, they jsut ramp up their stack) and drawing as many early Forces as possible to stop their lock for a turn or two. Wasting their Workshops is a very good strategy if you can Force their first threat.

I'm just very confused with where to take this deck. On one hand, I could overhaul the mana-base with rainbow lands (2 more cities and gemstone mine) and cut the fetches in order to be fully 5C and run MD Choke, Rod, and Field in addition to the Wasteland package. This makes the deck prison/control, which is quite cool. Unfortunatly, Choke does nothing against Stax, they may run S-Field themselves, and your manabase is entirely non-basic. It feels like the Stax matchup would be abysmal.

On the other side, I could cut the Suppression Fields and Balance (thereby making the deck 3 color, like most Oath nowadays) and run MD Null Rod (though not Choke) and possibly have some free slots to play around with things like MD Ground Seal.

As for the Razia vs Spirit debate, there is a LOT of U/W Fish and WTF in my meta, so I feel Razia is the superior choice for me.



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Moxlotus
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« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2005, 11:35:27 pm »

Chalice for 2 has never once been a problem, assuming you play with 3-4 Oxidizes in the board.  If you don't play with 3-4 Oxidizes in the board in a GWS style Oath you are going to lose.

If fish is prevalent in your meta, then use Razia.  The difference almost never shows up.

Cutting Brainstorms is the worst thing you could ever do.  What else do you do when the men show up to the party?

I don't know why you hate Seal.  It is another way to find Oath.  The other common targets are wasteland and Duress.

Without Impulses, I find it hard you can consistantly find Oath by around turn 3 against Stax.  Also, drawing lots of Forces isn't the best strategy.  Unless your meta is CS and Dragon heavy, I'd avoid MD Ground Seal.  But I hate having dead or almost dead cards against other decks.  Heck, even in the NE I wouldn't MD Choke.

5 color oath would flat out lose to its own manabase in 2 ways.
1. Your own lands kill you.  I've been killed too many times running 4 Orchards and 2 Cities.  Adding 2 Cities won't help.
2. You don't have any basics against Stax.  Sacred Ground is also a terrible addition because Stax will be bringing in Ray of Revelations.

Null Rod is an interesting idea.  That may be useful in many cases.
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