U/W Fish: perfecting the build. Thoughts?

[wake_of_destruction]

I've been playing Fish for a long time now. Recently I changed my build to play with Aether Vial and Chalice of the Void over the usual Null Rod.

Here's my build after quite a while of tuning (budget):


Creatures: 13

4 Meddling Mage
4 Waterfront Bouncer
3 Rootwater Thief
2 Ninja of the Deep Hours

Others: 23

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands: 24

6 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
1 Plains


I'm pretty sure about the main deck. It works great. The sideboard, however, could use some work:

3 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Null Rod
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Gilded Drake

Specifically, Null Rod and Crypt seem like weak spots. Gilded Drake might be overkill (I have StP). I've been thinking of Serenity, but I don't think it deserves a spot. Btw I know Null Rod doesn't go with Vial, but I usually put the Vials in the SB against combo anyway.

I'd like to pack a good card against control. The problem is that there aren't many, if at all, specific anti-control cards (aggro and combo can be easily hated: Stifle, Chalice of the Void, Null Rod, ...). Any ideas on this aspect would be very nice.

Anyway, what do you think?

[Zomar]

First off why are you playing ninja in this list? You have no power or 1 drop creatures so you will never get ninja into play before turn three. Ninja also has bad synergy with all of your creatures. Personally I feel that ninja is a bad card in general in fish. I don't understand why fish players cut curiosity. Curiosity draws far more cards that ninja because its much easier to get into play than ninja, and doesnt have the drawback of bouncing your utility creature.

second i absolutly hate aether vial and chalice. I know that fish players have turn away from null rod but i simply dont understand. chalice is a dead card after the first few turns, if you opponent plays a single mox before you drop it, you've got 4 dead cards in your deck/hand. all the aether vials you draw after the first is dead. if you dont play it turn one, its dead. fish plays such a low number of creatures that the card will sit in play useless for good period of the game.

null rod is much better at stopping artifacts, it turns pentavus, mindslaver, and triskellion into a joke. And it stops artifact mana better than chalice could ever dream to. chalice doesnt even stop tinker because of the existance of sol ring, mana vault, and artifact lands.

i am an avid promoter of 4 swords maindeck in fish. Most decks play one or two creatures as their kill condition. If you swords a collosus, you win. if you swords oath's creatures, you win. swords is also necisarry to take out welders and helps you in aggro matchups. With their being so many creatures in type one right now, and many decks playing a limited number of them as kill conditions, there is no reason not to play 4 swords.

[Harlequin]

I agree with Zomars points, and have a few to add.
- To re-itterate:  Null rod is a better choice than vials and jitte
- Ninja is good, but only if your prepair for his arival.  Flying men is a "4 of" for sure if you want to run ninja of.  Not only is he a relativly unblockable turn 1 drop,  but after you ninja him out he becomes Force of will fodder.  I have a buddy who I play tested U/W fish alot with, and we decided that the ideal opening hand is land, land, FOW, Flyingmen, ninja.  That is the god hand.  with that you have a super solid opener.  it gives you first turn man, + Fow with ninja pitch.  And then turn 2 ninja with flying man pitch.   Very powerful.  In fact if you feal you'd like to run 6 flying men... you can go 4 flying men and 2 Grayscale Gharial (1/1 islandwalker from RAV).
- Personally I would try to work in some main deck removal (as Zomar also suggested).  Be it Sword to plow, disenchant, or even chian of vapor, or echoing truth.  All are good choices, but if you are running vials then you need some null rod, or chalice for 1 control of your own. 
- If you stick to vials, this opens your mana up for more control spells so I would suggest that if your sticking to vial, there are better control cards than daze (esp becasue you have open mana).  Namely annul, disrupt, and even mana leak.  This obviously makes the good ol' chalice for 1 not so good, but I think daze is not great in a deck with vial.  I would say cut daze for mana leaks a/or Misdirrection. 
- As for the side, there are 2 cards that white fish LOVES on the side.  Sacred Ground is simply a 1 card SHUTDOWN for stax; and  Orims Chant (or Abbayance to a lesser extent) is the best card for your combo matchup.  Here is why.  say your playing against TPS, a good tps player will know you run stifle, so a good TPS player will know to duress before they cast tendrils.  This is your signal to drop the O-bomb.  Also a killer response to any draw 7 spell, or obviously a shutdown response to mind's desire.  the combo matchup is a rough one, because fish has a slow win, so you'll need all the help you can get.
- Lastly for the side, arcane lab and rule of law are great combo solutions as well (and if you decide to keep the vials, this is ultra-bonus for you). 
- If you decide to run the null rod, possible graveyard hate includes Morning Tide (too bad its a sorcery...), Honor the Fallen (instant but very techy), and Grip of Amnesia (basically, it lets you counter a spell for sure).  Personally most decks you want graveyard hate for also get dramatically slowed to null rod so tormod's crypt and phyrexian furnace force you play dead cards one way or the other.  but those cards listed above are not dramatically better.  I would personally go Honor the fallen because it clears all the big badies that fish fears and welder loves (pents, trisks, and titans OH MY), and it clears world gorger dragon and squee. 

[Dynamis]

but after you ninja him out he becomes Force of will fodder

Ninja being ninja'ed out cannot be countered because it's not a spell.

[vartemis]

but after you ninja him out he becomes Force of will fodder

Ninja being ninja'ed out cannot be countered because it's not a spell.

um...yeah. he meant you can discard him to pay FOWs alternate casting cost... thanks for playing.

j

edit:  I was assuming you understood a was referring to the returned flying men being returned.

[Dynamis]

I apologize for my misinterpretation.

um...yeah. he meant you can discard him to pay FOWs alternate casting cost... thanks for playing.

Remove from game.

I thought the Ninja was being referred to rather than the Flying Men.

[wake_of_destruction]

First off why are you playing ninja in this list? You have no power or 1 drop creatures so you will never get ninja into play before turn three. Ninja also has bad synergy with all of your creatures. Personally I feel that ninja is a bad card in general in fish. I don't understand why fish players cut curiosity. Curiosity draws far more cards that ninja because its much easier to get into play than ninja, and doesnt have the drawback of bouncing your utility creature.


Ninja is better than Curiosity in that it's a threat on its own, Jitteable, and if your opponent has creature removal you still get to keep the creature you swapped Ninja for.

It's also great under a Standstill (good in mirror/landstill matchups), and just good draw in general.

Sure, I can only get it out turn 3, but I only run 2. I hardly ever have problems getting them in play, and if I do, I can pitch them to FoW.

second i absolutly hate aether vial and chalice. I know that fish players have turn away from null rod but i simply dont understand. chalice is a dead card after the first few turns, if you opponent plays a single mox before you drop it, you've got 4 dead cards in your deck/hand. all the aether vials you draw after the first is dead. if you dont play it turn one, its dead. fish plays such a low number of creatures that the card will sit in play useless for good period of the game.


Chalice isn't just good at "0". Aggro is absolutely raped by a Chalice on 1 or 2. And quite honestly, aggro can be a pain in the ass. Chalice at 0 owns combo (even if my opponent gets to start, there's a good chance he'll have a bunch of moxen still in the deck after his first turn).

Control doesn't hurt from Chalice at all (I'd hit myself harder at pretty much any number), but that's where Vial comes in. Sucks against combo, so-so against aggro (combat tricks can be very effective + important to have Vial if I want that Chalice at "2" (don't want to counter my own creatures)), ROCKS against control. Seriously, it's game-winning. Uncounterable Thief, Bouncer and Mage. What could you possibly want more? That trio rapes control so hard it's not even funny (bye, Colossus, Buring Wish, Mana Drain, ..). The problem is control usually counters those threats. With Vial, that's not an option.

Vial is also game against Landstill.


I was a loyal Null Rod fisherman myself not so long ago, and very sceptically I tried out Vial Fish with Jittes. The results stunned me. Jitte is an amazing card, fits Fish perfectly. Game against aggro, raises the clock against control, requires those extra storm counts against Tenrdils (might affect the perfect storm).

Chalice is so good against combo and aggro, it's not even funny. Null Rod can't even touch it in this regard. And you can still sideboard Null Rods against those artifact decks -- you won't be needing your Vials against combo any time soon.

I suggest you guys to just try out a basic build (mine would be ok :p) before you judge. You'll see: it works.

null rod is much better at stopping artifacts, it turns pentavus, mindslaver, and triskellion into a joke. And it stops artifact mana better than chalice could ever dream to. chalice doesnt even stop tinker because of the existance of sol ring, mana vault, and artifact lands.

It is better at stopping artifacts, but that's it. Chalice has so many more purposes.. I have my board to take care of artifacts (Null Rod, Kataki)

i am an avid promoter of 4 swords maindeck in fish. Most decks play one or two creatures as their kill condition. If you swords a collosus, you win. if you swords oath's creatures, you win. swords is also necisarry to take out welders and helps you in aggro matchups. With their being so many creatures in type one right now, and many decks playing a limited number of them as kill conditions, there is no reason not to play 4 swords.

I'll admit, I side my 3 StP's in suspiciously often. Game against Dragon, Oath (when resolved), Gifts (when resolved), can turn the side against aggro, ..

Still, I prefer it in the sideboard. Jitte takes care of a lot (trust me, it's better than StP in the average match-up). Bouncer takes care of the fatties (Colossus, Akroma).


Ninja is good, but only if your prepair for his arival.  Flying men is a "4 of" for sure if you want to run ninja of.  Not only is he a relativly unblockable turn 1 drop,  but after you ninja him out he becomes Force of will fodder.  I have a buddy who I play tested U/W fish alot with, and we decided that the ideal opening hand is land, land, FOW, Flyingmen, ninja.  That is the god hand.  with that you have a super solid opener.  it gives you first turn man, + Fow with ninja pitch.  And then turn 2 ninja with flying man pitch.   Very powerful.  In fact if you feal you'd like to run 6 flying men... you can go 4 flying men and 2 Grayscale Gharial (1/1 islandwalker from RAV).


I prefer utility creatures. I don't need to get my Ninja in turn 2. I don't need it turn 3 either. It's just draw, I don't care when I draw it. In the type 1 environment, and with 3 Jitte's and 4 Bouncers main deck, there are few situations were I can't get it in. I don't need to be fast about it.

Personally I would try to work in some main deck removal (as Zomar also suggested).  Be it Sword to plow, disenchant, or even chian of vapor, or echoing truth.  All are good choices, but if you are running vials then you need some null rod, or chalice for 1 control of your own. 


I have removal:  Thief, Bouncer, Jitte, permission.

If you stick to vials, this opens your mana up for more control spells so I would suggest that if your sticking to vial, there are better control cards than daze (esp becasue you have open mana).  Namely annul, disrupt, and even mana leak.  This obviously makes the good ol' chalice for 1 not so good, but I think daze is not great in a deck with vial.  I would say cut daze for mana leaks a/or Misdirrection. 


You'd be surprised how mana intensive Fish still is, even with Vials. If only to attack with that Factory. I like Daze for the surprise effect (running Leak would often require to leave my mana untapped while I have a Factory. I couldn't make it more obvious to my opponent that I can counter his spell by not attacking with Factory). Daze is also first turn permission, which can be quite useful.


As for the side, there are 2 cards that white fish LOVES on the side.  Sacred Ground is simply a 1 card SHUTDOWN for stax; and  Orims Chant (or Abbayance to a lesser extent) is the best card for your combo matchup.  Here is why.  say your playing against TPS, a good tps player will know you run stifle, so a good TPS player will know to duress before they cast tendrils.  This is your signal to drop the O-bomb.  Also a killer response to any draw 7 spell, or obviously a shutdown response to mind's desire.  the combo matchup is a rough one, because fish has a slow win, so you'll need all the help you can get.


Stax doesn't need Strips or Wastes + Crucible to kill me. I'd rather board in some Kataki and Null Rod against Stax (especially Kataki though). Kataki and Null Rod also take care of a bunch more. Sacred Ground is too niche IMO.

Orim's Chant is a good idea, really. But I have a lot against combo. Stifle (which is still better), Chalice, Null Rod, Kataki. I don't know, I'll think about it.

Lastly for the side, arcane lab and rule of law are great combo solutions as well (and if you decide to keep the vials, this is ultra-bonus for you).

They are indeed. But I find them to be a tad too slow. (fast enough against TPS, but I'll rely on my other hate for that matchup (Chalice, Rod, Kataki).


If you decide to run the null rod, possible graveyard hate includes Morning Tide (too bad its a sorcery...), Honor the Fallen (instant but very techy), and Grip of Amnesia (basically, it lets you counter a spell for sure).  Personally most decks you want graveyard hate for also get dramatically slowed to null rod so tormod's crypt and phyrexian furnace force you play dead cards one way or the other.  but those cards listed above are not dramatically better.  I would personally go Honor the fallen because it clears all the big badies that fish fears and welder loves (pents, trisks, and titans OH MY), and it clears world gorger dragon and squee. 


I don't know about graveyard hate. StP and Stifle are a lot better against dragon (bye, permanents) so that leaves Welder. Would I really want graveyard hate against that deck? Maybe of some recullable, permanent, non-artifact (Null Rod) kind (like Sacred Ground -- too bad it's green).

I don't even know why I'm running Crypts at all. Anti-synergetic with Chalice and Null Rod. Honor the Fallen seems the best at this point, but I'd rather save those slots for that extra Null Rod, or those Orim's Chants.

[vartemis]

Remove from game.

I thought the Ninja was being referred to rather than the Flying Men.

No prob.  I can see how that would happen.  welcome to the forums.


j

[Zomar]

new fish with ninja draws a lot less cards than old fish with curiosity. ninja doesnt have evasion.

null rod beats control.

chalice of the void beats sligh.

tough choice, you decide.

okay i'll decide for you: good players play control. if you want to beat good players play null rod.

[vartemis]

Also, curiosity allows you go give any creature you control the ability.  Sure it is a 2 for 1 loss if the creature gets popped, but more often then not you can draw more cards with it.

j

[wake_of_destruction]

new fish with ninja draws a lot less cards than old fish with curiosity. ninja doesnt have evasion.

Jitte grants more evasion than traditional Fish could ever dream of.

null rod beats control.

Not nearly as badly as Aether Vial and Umezawa's Jitte. Jitte and Vial don't go with Rod.

chalice of the void beats sligh.

Aggro and combo.


tough choice, you decide.

No need to get cocky. Anyway, you're right. It's an easy choice. Vial + Chalice + Jitte is better against control, aggro AND combo. (combo depends)


okay i'll decide for you: good players play control. if you want to beat good players play null rod.

Vial > Null Rod against control.

Also, curiosity allows you go give any creature you control the ability.  Sure it is a 2 for 1 loss if the creature gets popped, but more often then not you can draw more cards with it.

Curiosity is not Jitteable. That's a huge advantage right there.

[Harlequin]

I'm not sure what meta game your prepairing for, but there isnt that much "Agro" out there.  The only aggro decks that seam to be doing well are Shop-Agro and FCG (wich is the deck that never dies).  Most difficult match-ups generally fall under drain combo, or Rit combo.  Niether of those decks run any creatures to speak of.  curiosity I think belong in R/U fish, but not really in any other build.  By it self, Curiosty doesnt do anything. 
- Both cards in that you need a creature in play to get any advantage out of either card
- Both also require an attacking creature to draw a card.
- Curiosty + 1/1 flyer = draw 1 card deal 1 dmg for 2 cards - hard to prevent (ie the creature has flying)
- Ninja + 1/1 flyer = draw 1 card, deal 2 dmg for 2 cards on turn2, then on later turns 3 draw 1 card and deal 3 dmg - easy to block the draw engine.
- Ninja'ing a blue creature also give you prime power for your FOW (pitching a flying man to pay FOW FTW!!)


I'd also like to go back to a few points that I made about chalice/vial fish vrs Rod fish. 

Combo Solutions
C/V:  chalice for 0 and 1 [side: arcane lab, tormods]
Rod: Null rod, possibly MD stifle [side: STP (for dragon), Orims chant and stifle (storm)]

1st turn chalice for 1 (agaist any shop deck)
C/V:  cry? hard cast all your creatures and spells (or run echoing truth)
Rod: main deck echoing truth

Null Rod
C/V: cry.  sorry waterfront bouncer, null rod is not a creature
Rod: HA! [post side you have slots formed from siding out your null rods]

Welders
C/V: Chalice for 1, waterfront bouncer [tormods crypt]
Rod: STP, maindeck bounce [disenchant for weld target removal]

Big creatures
C/V: Water front bouncer
Rod: STP, main deck echoing truth

Mana useage
C/V: getting a break on creature mana means you have more utility mana (ie mana for thief, bouncer, and Factory)
Rod: Run smaller creatures, and less creatures with mana activated abilitys.  Less mana for utility BUT you can run alot more 1 mana cost stuff bc your not killing part of your curve with chalice

Win Speed
C/V: Less damaging creatures, more use outa Factory
Rod: Flying man beats + 4 ninjas adds up to a faster beat-stick win, less use from factory

Card Reliance
C/V: no 1 drops other than vial, creatures are geared to run smoothly off vial without vail deck becomes questionably good, chalice can only be droped for 1 on turn 2, without running full moxen.
Rod: little to no card reliance, all your cards have synergy but nothing relys too heavly on anything else.  Ninjas need 1 drops but thats about it.

A word on Standstill
C/V: with a vial on the board standstill is awsome, without vial... standstill is only so good.
Rod: even with flying man on the board and no Mishrahs or ninjas in hand. standstill is still a great play. 

A word on Meddling mage
C/V: Meddling mages can be reset with waterfront bouncer, and thief gives a more accurate card call for mage.
Rod: running 4 ninjas, and main deck bounce lets you rename mages (basically for free).  This lets you more frivously throw mages down naming Drain or Thirst, just on the knowledge of 1 Polluted in play (oops your playing TPS? ninja -> rename mage for dark rit or brainstorm). 
---------------

On a somewhat un-related to the above list of stuff.  If you ever get a chance to play the deck with a few proxies Library of Alexandria is HOT in fish.

[Zomar]

what aggro are you talking about that chalice stops? red green beats? definitely a must win matchup there.

null rod stops combo just as much as chalice does, if not better.

[wake_of_destruction]

I'm not sure what meta game your prepairing for, but there isnt that much "Agro" out there.  The only aggro decks that seam to be doing well are Shop-Agro and FCG (wich is the deck that never dies).

Sligh, beats, WW.

 
Most difficult match-ups generally fall under drain combo, or Rit combo.  Niether of those decks run any creatures to speak of.  curiosity I think belong in R/U fish, but not really in any other build.  By it self, Curiosty doesnt do anything.  
- Both cards in that you need a creature in play to get any advantage out of either card
- Both also require an attacking creature to draw a card.
- Curiosty + 1/1 flyer = draw 1 card deal 1 dmg for 2 cards - hard to prevent (ie the creature has flying)
- Ninja + 1/1 flyer = draw 1 card, deal 2 dmg for 2 cards on turn2, then on later turns 3 draw 1 card and deal 3 dmg - easy to block the draw engine.
- Ninja'ing a blue creature also give you prime power for your FOW (pitching a flying man to pay FOW FTW!!)

Yeah. Ninja > Curiosity.



Combo Solutions
C/V:  chalice for 0 and 1 [side: arcane lab, tormods]
Rod: Null rod, possibly MD stifle [side: STP (for dragon), Orims chant and stifle (storm)]

My side has Stifle, STP and Null Rod ((I don't need my Vials/Jittes against combo). That's 4 big answers to combo.


1st turn chalice for 1 (agaist any shop deck)
C/V:  cry? hard cast all your creatures and spells (or run echoing truth)
Rod: main deck echoing truth

You sugges tNull Rod Fish to main deck Flying Men, STP and Stifle. A Chalice on 1 against such a deck would be far more painful than against Vial Fish. Vials are not that important. Only 4 cards, important against Control only.


Null Rod
C/V: cry.  sorry waterfront bouncer, null rod is not a creature
Rod: HA! [post side you have slots formed from siding out your null rods]

Pretty nasty, yes. Vial + Jitte. Vials gets sided out, I get 4 slots open for STP. I should take that matchup. (Any deck running Null Rod probably rolls over and dies to Jitte. If I can get mine out before the Rod, I win. If not, I have my StP's turning the tide).

Welders
C/V: Chalice for 1, waterfront bouncer [tormods crypt]
Rod: STP, maindeck bounce [disenchant for weld target removal]

An awfully polyvalent Null Rod Fish build you're thinking of. Might want to make a decklist first. StP, Stifle, Bounce, all MD..
Anyway, against Welder I have Bouncer, Chalice and (especially -- how could you not list this) Jitte. SB adds StP and Kataki.


Big creatures
C/V: Water front bouncer
Rod: STP, main deck echoing truth

Bouncer, race with Jitte. SB adds STP, Gilded Drake.

Mana useage
C/V: getting a break on creature mana means you have more utility mana (ie mana for thief, bouncer, and Factory)
Rod: Run smaller creatures, and less creatures with mana activated abilitys.  Less mana for utility BUT you can run alot more 1 mana cost stuff bc your not killing part of your curve with chalice

Fair enough. But you'll be crying your ass off against that Chalice on "1". I'll just be dissing my Vials to Bouncer, whilst kicking ass with the Jitte..

Win Speed
C/V: Less damaging creatures, more use outa Factory
Rod: Flying man beats + 4 ninjas adds up to a faster beat-stick win, less use from factory

4 Ninjas? How in the world are you going to get just 60 cards with 4 Ninja, Echoing Truth, STP and Stifle all MD?

Card Reliance
C/V: no 1 drops other than vial, creatures are geared to run smoothly off vial without vail deck becomes questionably good, chalice can only be droped for 1 on turn 2, without running full moxen.
Rod: little to no card reliance, all your cards have synergy but nothing relys too heavly on anything else.  Ninjas need 1 drops but thats about it.

The deck doesn't need Vial at all to run smoothly. It's only important against control. I board it out all the time.

A word on Standstill
C/V: with a vial on the board standstill is awsome, without vial... standstill is only so good.
Rod: even with flying man on the board and no Mishrahs or ninjas in hand. standstill is still a great play.

Only so good? What decks beats Fish under a Standstill? If I don't have a Vial, only Landstill does. I can drop the Standstill against every deck. 4 Factory, 4 Wasteland, 1 Strip Mine, 2 Ninja.  

A word on Meddling mage
C/V: Meddling mages can be reset with waterfront bouncer, and thief gives a more accurate card call for mage.
Rod: running 4 ninjas, and main deck bounce lets you rename mages (basically for free).  This lets you more frivously throw mages down naming Drain or Thirst, just on the knowledge of 1 Polluted in play (oops your playing TPS? ninja -> rename mage for dark rit or brainstorm).

Mage runs great in both decks, but Thief is better than any bounce for naming those cards. Vial gets it in uncountered, which is another awesome, anti-Drain tech advantage.  

[wake_of_destruction]

what aggro are you talking about that chalice stops? red green beats? definitely a must win matchup there.

null rod stops combo just as much as chalice does, if not better.


Beats is a terrible match-up for Fish. Terrible. Null Rod Fish has little chance against it. With Chalice and Jitte it's a walk through the park. So are Sligh and WW.

Null Rod stops combo better than Chalice? What combo kills turn 3 or slower (if they can start)? TPS only, which has Duress and FoW to take the Rods out before you got the chance to play them.

[Zomar]

what aggro are you talking about that chalice stops? red green beats? definitely a must win matchup there.

null rod stops combo just as much as chalice does, if not better.


Beats is a terrible match-up for Fish. Terrible. Null Rod Fish has little chance against it. With Chalice and Jitte it's a walk through the park. So are Sligh and WW.

Null Rod stops combo better than Chalice? What combo kills turn 3 or slower (if they can start)? TPS only, which has Duress and FoW to take the Rods out before you got the chance to play them.

so do you actually play against white weenie, sligh, and beats? if so, go ahead and use chalice. But if you play it that regularly, you are probably using the wrong deck.

The trick is to drop null rod turn 1 after dropping down a mahamoti djinn.

[Harlequin]

4 Ninjas? How in the world are you going to get just 60 cards with 4 Ninja, Echoing Truth, STP and Stifle all MD?

Actually my buddy runs all that (not 100% sure on main deck Echoing) I'll Post the deck list he plays next time I see him.  But Its very simple, basiacally all 4 ofs.

For the shop aggro matchup, STP goes a long way.  And post side 3 to 4 Energyflux on the side.

And, although I've personally never really tested the vial build, It seems like a more narrow game than rod fish.  for example you have to play your vial before you chalice for 1.  And if you can't then your stuck with only 2 mana cost guys.

Also as far as rod fish rolling to chalice for 1, it basically doesnt have too much of a problem... but it obviously is a problem.  Its still got plenty of beats going on with mishrahs and meddlings.  but as you pointed out, its no walk in the park.

[wake_of_destruction]

so do you actually play against white weenie, sligh, and beats? if so, go ahead and use chalice. But if you play it that regularly, you are probably using the wrong deck.

Aggro is general does appear rather often, yes. I think it's nice to have a deck that's not particularly good against the deck type, but can handle it.

Actually my buddy runs all that (not 100% sure on main deck Echoing) I'll Post the deck list he plays next time I see him.  But Its very simple, basiacally all 4 ofs.

Well when running 4 of all that I'd think you have to cut the staples, no?

For the shop aggro matchup, STP goes a long way.  And post side 3 to 4 Energyflux on the side.

Jitte MD, and then StP and Kataki SB go a pretty long way too.

And, although I've personally never really tested the vial build, It seems like a more narrow game than rod fish.  for example you have to play your vial before you chalice for 1.  And if you can't then your stuck with only 2 mana cost guys.

Not really. Vial is important in few match-ups. Sacing Vials to get that Chalice on 1 is often a viable strategy. You're far overrating the importance of Aether Vial in Vial Fish. The only reason the deck is named "Vial Fish" in the first place is because Vial is the most distinctive aspect that separates the deck from Null Rod Fish.



Also as far as rod fish rolling to chalice for 1, it basically doesnt have too much of a problem... but it obviously is a problem.  Its still got plenty of beats going on with mishrahs and meddlings.  but as you pointed out, its no walk in the park.


Well Vial Fish wouldn't be seriously damaged at all.

[Harlequin]

Decklist:
4 meddling mage
4 flying men
4 Ninja of Deep hours
4 Icatian Javlineers (also tested weathered wayfares)

4 FOW
2 Misdirrection
3 Daze
3 STP
3 Stifle
1 Ancestral Recall

3 Null Rod
4 Standstill

1 Lotus
2 Mox
4 Flooded strand
4 Tundra
1 island
4 wasteland
1 stripmine
4 Mishrahs Factory
(also tested Lib of Alexandra as 61st card)
(also tested with Maze of Ith and Abolish to take full advantage of Wayfayers, but that was too much dependancy)

Side --
4 Energy flux
3 Arcane Lab
3 disenchant
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 STP (4th)
1 Null Rod (4th)

This deck, and it with different sideboards, has had decent sucess, top 8s around local small tourneys.
In waterbury it placed around 40th on day one, not bad.

Conversation between him and I:
Me: No more bounce? what about chalice for 1
Him: I came to realize that I can play around chalice for 1 in the late game.  Chalice for 1 really hurts me on turn 1, before side.  So if they #1 win roll, and #2 blindly chalice for one, then its fair to say I'll loose game1.  But any deck that first turns chalice for 1 I have Energy flux, AND disenchant.  All in all I like Disenchant more than echoing truth.
Me: No Sacred ground?? What about the one card bomb for stax!?
Him: It was too narrow of a card for this deck.  I like the 4 energy flux way more.  It wins both the stax matchup and the Shop aggro matchup.  If I lower the flux count to make room for sacred ground, I have less hate for Shop Agro wich is my toughest matchup.  If i drop something else for sacrede ground, then thats too much side-in hate for stax (6 enchantments), not too mention the fact that my sideboard is tight as is.   I will admit that sacred ground is a better card for the stax match up.  but stax isnt my most feared matchup, Shop aggro is, So flux and Disenchant will have to be good enough.  Anyother major point about sacred ground is that It only stops staxs major lock components (crucible/waste, and stax).  But it doesn't stop the deck, Flux makes them play with nothing on the board. 
Me: Orims Chant got the axe too eh?
Him: Yes.  Orims chant again was too narrow of a card.  It was great for TPS... but TPS is rare now adays.  The other combo decks out there are Dragon and TopCombo.  Disenchant shuts down both dragon and Top combo.  For TPS I still have Arcane Labs and good old Null rod. 
Me: So It seams you side in Disenchant alot.
Him: Basiacally I was finding that when i had 2 disenchants and all those narrow hate cards, post side, I would be just praying to topdeck Disenchant.  Basically I took all the narrow hate cards and combined them into 3 disenchant.  Thus opening more slots for BeB and an extra arcane lab.
Me: How has BeB been treating you.
Him: I side it in against any deck that runs volcanics or mountains.  Game 2 you can bet your last dollar they side in ReBs, so you need be playing on that level.
Me: So what about Vial Chalice UW Fish (with jitte)?
Him:  Way to hateable and ultimately way too slow.  Think about it you have to spend 4 mana before jitte does anything, You have to wait 2 turns AFTER you drop vial before you can even drop your first creature (who cant even attack that turn). By turn 2, I'm ninjaing in my guy and drawing a card. Your only saving grace is that you can run Chalice for 0 or 1.  Chalice for 1 costs 2 mana, null rod costs 2 mana, Chalice for 0 is only good if you drop it BEFORE your opponent plays moxen, Null rod stops Moxen no matter when they were played.  Null rod hates on almost ever deck in the format (including vial fish), It is ultimately better hate than even chalice for 1.  Also think of the Match-up... my deck vrs Vial Fish.  post side I have 4 Null rod, 3 disenchant, and Icatians... and it seams the only hate he has for me is chalice for 1, bc you can sure as hell bet jitte will be worthless.  Every deck runs artifact hate, EVERY DECK.  The beauty of my UW fish is that it doesnt give a crap about artifact hate.  In fact! most decks are forced to side in artifact hate... forced to side out a speedy win, for artifact hate... to deal with null rod.  I love seeing ppl side in artifact hate to attempt to stop null rod, its almost like them miss-sideing bc I'm ultimately a creature beats deck.  Why would you take that, and add artifact dependancy? 
--

So maybe I wasnt 100% on the sideboard.  But again, we have changed the sideboard around alot.  and this may not be the sideboard he plays tomorrow    As for "Cutting the staples" I think this deck runs way more threats than vial fish build.  Cutting 8 vial/chalice makes room for more threats.

[fromm2020]

The main prob w/fish is that workshop aggro is just bigger, faster and stronger than fish could ever be, why go turn 2, meddling mage, when you can just go turn 1 juggernaught?

[J J P]

Because it requires a set of Workshops to do so

[fromm2020]

granted, but if your gonna get into t1 your gonna have to make an investment somewhere, its either shops, drains, bazaars, or power.

[Evilkin]

Harlequin, I'm definately thinking you've posted the strongest list on here.  A lot of what your buddy says makes perfect sense.  You can tell he has a lot of experience playing the deck.  Me and my friend Dan worked on a version of Fish we like to call Old Faerie Men.  Or now OFM 2K5. Basically, we took Fish, cut Curiosity, added Old Man of the Sea and maindeck CoW.  We updated the version to U/W 2K5 with the arrival of Forbidden Orchard Oath.  Our build has had a lot of success here in Canada, and still to this day is constantly putting 1-2 decks into the top 8 at 40 person tournaments.  And trust me there is a lot of competition at one of these tournaments.  Usually at least 5-8 players show up that have made top 8 at various major US tournaments such as Star City P9, Gencon, Mana Drain Open, and Waterbury.  Our list is basically the same one that me and a fellow team NoneSense member each took to top 8 at Star City Rochester.

One of the common arguments seems to be Vial + Jitte or Null Rod.

I like to think of U/W Fish as a lock down deck.  With each card you play, you are either crippling your opponents resources, using cheap spells to counter costly threats or laying perments on the table that shut off percentages of your opponents deck.

U/W Fish can still win many, MANY games with out drawing a single Standstill or drawing any extra cards.  This is done because the deck is designed to cripple your opponents deck, take away his strategy and make himself waste Tutors and Wishes on answers rather then trying to win on his own terms.  A lot of games turn into scrappy, top-decking jank fests.  That is essentially what this deck is focused on accomplishing.  Forcing your opponent into finding other ways of winning.  Taking away the easy plays and complicating matters.  In the meanwhile your whittling away his life with near costless and multi-tasking creatures. 

Why I don't like Jitte in Fish.  As said in a previous post it is too mana intensive and does nothing at crippling your opponents deck.  In a deck that runs few creatures in playtesting I found there were far too many occasions that you can't keep a creature on the board or draw 1 and have a Jitte out at the same time.  If your speeding up your clock with Jitte your also allowing your opponent to play with his full set of Power. 

With Gifts being such a prominent deck atm why wouldn't you be running Null Rods.  Gifts fears the Rod.  I playtest Gifts all the time and Null Rod does a great job at slowing that deck down to a crawl. 

Strategy vs Gifts.  3x Maindeck Null Rod,  play Meddling Mage and choose either Gifts or Tinker depending on how fast you are going to beat him down.  Side in 4x CotV and set to 1 to shut off Ancestral, Brainstorm and Chain of Vapor.  (Note that our list doesn't run 1cc creatures to fully utilize CotV).  Also a turn 1 CotV for zero is the better play when going first and not having a Rod in hand.  If you get a 2nd Chalice set it to 2 and proceed the beats with Factories and Ninjas.  If Gifts is very highly played in your area i'd suggest running some of the mentioned cards in Harequins post in the sideboard.  Abeyance as well as Extracts are fairly decent options.

Vial isn't necessary in U/W Fish.  Cloud of Faeries is still your best creature if you plan on using Ninjas or playing with Null Rods and Standstills.  There is just too much synergy between the 3 cards not to be using 4 of each. 

OFM 2K5 has a very similiar list as the one posted by Harequin.  The major difference is the choice of Flying Men and Javlineers Vs siding in CotV for 1?

I love Flying Men, but don't really care for Javlineers mainly since they have no evasion.  This can be critical when trying to deal the last few points of damage to an opponent.  His list isn't running Clouds, which I think is a big mistake in any U/W list though.  It's not that rare to cast turn 1 Clouds or Meddling Mages with a Mox.  Really, it isn't.  If you don't want to run CotV and would rather have a 1 drop, stick with the Flying Men and swap Javlineers with Clouds.  Although, I guess our version of the deck is running 2-3 maindeck Old Men of the Sea to deal with random Welders.  I think you should be good with just the STP's though.

Another major differense is Stifle Vs CoW.  Our deck takes a more controlling route to victory with CotV + CoW.  Stifle is a good opening turn play on Fetch, but isn't your deck trying to drop 1cc critters turn 1?  Chalice and Crucible are far better top decks and game locking board controlling components.

I have also run Arcane Labs in the board for a few TPS heavy metagames but IMHO they are too narrow and not even necessary.  Lets face it, if TPS gets the Nuts you lose.  If they don't, Mages, Chalices and Null Rods are more then enough to shut that deck down.  It is funny though to have a Null Rod, Chalice for 0, and 1, an Arcane Lab and a Meddling Mage all on the board at once against a TPS player.  Then to top it off Daze there one answer left haha.

Anyways, these are just my own opinions of U/W Fish.  They might suck, you might find something helpful... I really don't know.

I'd just like to add that I playtested this deck to very strong results against Grim Long (is it even as good as TPS?) as well if you were wondering about that match up.

[Harlequin]

Personally The 1mana (no Chalice) build I am familiar with, and the Chalice (2 mana cost deck) both seem like they would work.  They deal with problems in different ways.  For example running Stifle give you land denial and wasteland protection, as does running crucible.  Veiwing WU fish as a lock type deck is not "wrong" but Personally we found that even this deck has its speed issues.  In a format that rarely goes beyond turn 7, we decided that the best way to win was to drop beat sticks constantly.  This is something you cannot do if you run only 2 mana cost beaters.  I'm Not sure what your deck runs in terms of countermagic, but I'll just say that leaving 1 tundra open in our build is plenty enough (this gives you stifle, and STP) If your running additional 2 mana control cards (leak and echoing truth come to mind) this means you need to leave 2 mana open to be a threat... this in turn means you may not be able to relyably drop a creature until turn 4. 
The Javinleerers is a very techy decision.  They are good in the mirror, against Xantid swarms (dragon), and clearly they are in the deck to add one more threat against welders.  WU fish really cannot run any graveyard removal, so welders are huge problem.  This is why we opted for 7 main deck welder killers and ELEVEN post side.  I will admit that chalice for 1 in anti-welder, but do you really side in chalice against welder based decks (they run R&R at the minimum, and this gives them addition weld targets for offensive welders).  I have not tested a deck with chalice on the side AND null rod either, but in concept Im not sure it stronger.

We are currently testing 2 javaleneers and 2 tundra wolf! as our mono-white creature base.  The idea being that tundra wolves have a certain semi-evasion esp in the mirror.  But more importantly they can ninja out after dealing first strike damage AND have the ninjas deal the additional 2 dmg and draw a card.  Netting 3 dmg and a draw for W, then 1U. 

I guess my main point is that UW fish needs to quick in its kill, OR it needs to make the game longer.  I guess my only arguement is that in a longer game, your opponent has more chances to draw a bombshell.  But all in all I do not dissagree with building a chalice fish deck as long as it includes Null Rod.





 

[Harlequin]

Oneafter thought about Arcane Lab, I think he sides them in against Gifts running recoup.  This forces them to bounce it before they can play Recoup.  Not sure about that tough.  I'll have to ask him about his typical Sideboard stratigy when hes around.  I'll post that too.

Edit --
Against Gifts running Recoup, that wins on tendrils yes
Against Gift Severance Belcher or Gifts TinkerDSC or flame vault, no, Disenchant, null rod and STP

[Zomar]

The main prob w/fish is that workshop aggro is just bigger, faster and stronger than fish could ever be, why go turn 2, meddling mage, when you can just go turn 1 juggernaught?

Turn one juggernaught is very dependent on having MWS in the opening hand. Workshop decks are so dependent on getting things out first turn that they cut on game winning cards in order to play more accelerants. The typical workshop hand will have maybe 2 or 3 at most cards that your opponent actually cares about. The workshop player has so few cards that actually do things that they are very easy to disrupt. A well timed force of will or rack and ruin from a control player leaves the workshop player devastated as they are forced into topdeck mode.

[Harlequin]

Also Shop aggro is not control ...
Sinse when is pure aggro very good at all.  Shop Agro may be faster than fish, but it has big delicious drain targets that will result in your opponent using YOUR mana to kill you with.
Fish is a controling beatstick deck.  Its one of the only deck that values mana efficency over mana quantity.
If you want to win ultra fast with no control, sell your shops, play 2 land belcher.

[Sysane]

I notice that not to many fish decks run pithing needle. I run 3 in my current build and find them pretty darn amazing. What are people's thoughts as to why they aren't used as a standard in fish builds with the current meta? 

[wake_of_destruction]

I think the biggest issue you guys have with Vial Fish is having to give up the Null Rod. Fish has absolutely no problem with artifact decks. I run 4 Fluxes and 4 Seal of Cleansing SB (see new decklist below). That's some sick artifact hate right there. Main deck there's 4 Chalice and if your meta demands it, you can always some run Kataki.

Another thing is you're all seriously underestimating Jitte. It's all Fish ever needed. Fish's gameplan is to cripple the opponent, but it's important that Fish can deal some reasonable damage meanwhile; your opponent's going to recover at some point, Null Rods or not.

Jitte also takes care of Welder and is Fish's only real answer against aggro. Let's not forget that guys, in any tournament you have a decent chance of running into a semi-decent aggro-ish deck or even "viable" decks like White Weenie.

That's not a big thing, but it is worth mentioning; random crap decks can seriously mess up your game plan.

Aether Vial. What a broken card. When I first read about Vial Fish I was very sceptical about it. I immediately accepted Jitte as a solid asset to the deck, but Vial? What the hell?

It allows you to run a mana-intensive creature base. Look at my creatures. Uncounterable permission. That's some crazy shit right there. It's great with Standstill (allowing you to play it, even if your opponent has board control). With Rootwater Thief it's great against Oath and Gifts. It's game-winning, actually.

Also, stop thinking about the mirror. Sure thing, Null Rod Fish has a very minor advantage there. But that match would mostly depend on luck. Vial Fish, regardless of Null Rods, has a stronger Standstill, a single Jitte swing would likely provide enough CA for a game win and game 2-3 I board out the Jittes or board in Seal of Cleansings.

Seriously, Null Rod is not a reason to stick to old Fish. My former Vial Fish build even had 4 Null Rods SB.

Anyway, the new and improved decklist:


Lands: 23

5 Island
4 Flooded Strands
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
1 Strip Mine

Creatures: 15

4 Meddling Mage
4 Stormscape Apprentice
4 Voidmage Prodigy
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours

Others: 22

4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte


Sideboard: 15

4 Energy Flux
4 Seal of Cleansing
3 Pithing Needle
3 Rootwater Thief
1 Swords to Plowshares


Let's go over the mist important decks:


Stax: MD: just the permission here. Tough 1st game, post-Sb should work: 4 Flux, 4 Seal of Cleansing, 3 Pithing Needle (Welder, Wasteland)

Oath: MD: both reactive (Apprentice, StP) and proactive (Jitte) (Factory + Jitte = no Oath activation). Post-SB: very good boarding here. 4 Seal of Cleansing, but more importantly 3 Rootwater Thief. Permission/Seal of Cleansing stall so I can swing with Thief and remove away. Mana intensive, sure. But I have Vials.

Gifts: MD: Apprentice, StP. Pretty much need to go for the storm kill. Chalice should prevent that, plus there's the uncounterable permission that takes care of that Burning Wish. Post-SB: Roowater Thief which is pretty much the game-winner.

Dragon: Easy. MD: StP (bye, permanents), permission. Post-SB: 4 Seal of Cleansing, another StP.

Slaver: I can take care of Welders; my creatures are uncounterable. Post-SB Seal of Cleansing + Pithing Needle.

Also, good against every mathup: Meddling Mage.

[sundering jerk]

second i absolutely hate aether vial and chalice. I know that fish players have turn away from null rod but i simply don't understand. chalice is a dead card after the first few turns.

As with all things their is a downside, but chalice for 2 is good against oath and sometimes gorger, and chalice for 1 is savage against other aggro as well as hindering to other decks.
I love going against people with tendrils having 4 maindeck, and if I know I'm not going first I sideboard in nullrod sideboard out chalice.
 
your deck really needs a time walk at least