Shadow of Doubt as a serious sideboard card?

[rakso]

I saw the Star City thread where people were mentioning Shadow of Doubt against decks using Gifts Ungiven and Grim Tutor.

I figure they are overrating their chances at timing Shadow of Doubt perfectly.

For discussion's sake, is anyone considering Shadow of Doubt as a serious sideboard card?

[islanderboi10]

Actually, I can see this in Many decks, which include but not limited too:
Fish
TPS(I know)
Gifts(I know again)
CS
Other U control

I can also see a rise in U/b Fish, maybe...

[lordmayhem]

Shadow of Doubt is a very interesting card but Mana Drain counters tutors just as well as other spells for the same mana cost. If you plan on countering fetch lands, Pithing Needle and Stifle can do that for 1 mana, along with having wider uses.

I'd rather see a Mana Drain in hand. Someone in that thread mentioned maindecking 4 Stifle in Stax. That's a significantly better idea than 4 MD Shadow of Doubt in my honest opinion.

[Vegeta2711]

Shadow of Doubt is probably the best non Drain non FoW counter we have access to. Consider the average deck that sees play has like 8-12 shuffle effects. It either counters and cantrips or it cycles for 2 which isn't a bad deal at all

[nataz]

Shadow of Doubt is probably the best non Drain non FoW counter we have access to.

agreed

it hits as a hard counter for

fetchlands, demonic, vamp, imp seal, mystical, grim, tinker, gifts, intuition, severance, merchant scroll, etc.

all for a very flexable casting cost.

Significant things it can't do would be

1) Win a counter war (MisD comes in third for this)
2) Counter stuff in stax (Go GO mana leak)

[Machinus]

Counterspell is a better counter than this.

[Dozer]

For discussion's sake, is anyone considering Shadow of Doubt as a serious sideboard card?

I am even considering it as a serious maindeck card. It goes into U/B control in a flash and might be good enough to push that decks matchup against Gifts high enough to actually work.

I agree to Veggies because whereas Counterspell is a hard counter, Shadow has added versatility (hitting Fetchlands and Jester's Caps and the like) and is a cantrip. Seeing that the first eight counters are hard counters in any case, all support counters are conditional (nobody uses Counterspell). Shadow hits a lot of important spells and draws a card. Being a Cantrip makes Shadow superior over any other secondary counterspell unless you need to protect your combo, like Misdirection does.

With the two-mana cost, Shadow vies with Mana Drain, and thus will not see play with more than 2 copies alongside Drain. I can see it in a black-based deck without FoW, though, as 4-of. In blue-based control, I think the real question is: Shadow or Duress?

Dozer

[vartemis]

The other advantage shadow of doubt has is that it shuts down tutoring for the turn.  If they crack a fetch land and you cast it, unless they have an instant tutor they want to cast right away, they have to wait till their next turn.  It also forces them to crack all their fetches in response if they need the mana for whatever they are doing that turn.  if you have a wasteland or two on the board you could cast it.  If they crack fetches in response you can waste whatever nonbasics they fetch (which would be the dumb move on their part), or if they do nothing you can waste their fetch and they get nothing for it.  It's situational, but very useful. You also get the cantrip to boot.

j

[Whatever Works]

I ran it as a 2 of in my sideboard at waterbury day 2 when I split for first with horrible UB fiendstill. It was amazing out of the board, and nobody every really saw it coming. The card is also never dead, because it cycles.

The real power of the card is that it hits all the cards that are most problematic for fish. I couldn't care less if opponent resolves FoF, but if he resolves a tinker its a big big problem... This is where shadow of doubt shines.

[Anusien]

Shadow of Doubt can also be significantly easier to cast in control-style decks.  Drain comes out first turn only off Land + Sapphire, but this you can also play off a Jet, which means that turn 2 you can also Brainstorm and still have Shadow mana open.

[Harlequin]

Shadow of Doubt is interesting in that it spans 2 aspects of control in one card.  But when it comes down to it, the usefullness seems more narrow than other options.   Let me try and explain with this contium of "control" effects.

1. Protect your cards
2. Win a Counter war
3. Counter Opp. Spells
    3a. Countering tutor spells
4. Counter a "fetch" effect
5. Counter a waste/strip land
6. Counter a win effect (Oath, storm)
7. Counter an other effect (tormods, seals)

Now lets review your standard control cards with these objectives in mind

Force of will (for all intensive purposes: free)
 -covers 1,2,3 and is used equally well for all

Misdirrection (again lets just say free)
 -only useful for 1 and 2

Spesific CS (1 mana costs) - Disrupt, annul, B/R elemental blast
 -generally used for 2 or 3, depending on the card.

Stifle (U)
 -Gets everthing on the lower half of the spectrum for 1 mana
 -turn 1 and 2, its almost a stripmine that doesnt cost your land drop (used for countering a fetch)
 -also protects your land from strip effects
 -stops storm

Mana Leak (1U)
 -not great turn1 (requires moxen), not great after turn 7
 -fantastic in those critical turns 3 to 5

Mana Drain (UU)
 -Fantastic card all around, good sold counter for 2 colored with mana acceleration.

Shadow of Doubt (UB or UU or BB)
 -Great for #3a, almost all decks tutor for wins
 -also great for #4, many competative decks run fetchlands

Outside of the spectrum

Duress (B)
  - Pre-emptively "counters" a spell
  - At LEAST it will draw out one counterspell.  At best it can cripple an opening hand

Orims Chant (W)
 -It can be used simlar to timewalk
 -It is a great response card for response to will, any draw 7, or even duress.
 -It can win a counter war over your cards, by playing it at the begining of your turn.

---------------------------

So heres what I say about shadow of doubt.  Its good.  Its on par with alot of tier one control cards.   But it not as good as some ppl think, If your allready running FOW, Drain, duress, AND stifle... and then say to yourself "I need more control."  then run Shadow of Doubt.  Shadow of Doubt seams to be the "right answer to the wrong problem" in alot of cases.  If you loose to tutor based combo, then run more control.  If you want to stop fetches stifle is were its at.

[lordmayhem]

Shadow of Doubt can also be significantly easier to cast in control-style decks.  Drain comes out first turn only off Land + Sapphire, but this you can also play off a Jet, which means that turn 2 you can also Brainstorm and still have Shadow mana open.

Shadow has an easier casting cost. So what? Draining on the first turn would nab more than a tutor or a fetchland. The main reason people are considering SoD is because of Gifts decks and really, I don't see Gifts being cast on turn one. Also when it comes to limited counters, Annul, Envelop, Reb/Beb are way better. Looking to counter lands? Stifle.

Shadow would be an interesting Wishboard card but I don't see it as anything more than that.

[Whatever Works]

I dont care how narrow it is overall. The only thing that truly matters (from the fish perspective) is that it hits the cards the deck is scared of, and is never dead because you can cast it to cycle at EoT if you have too...

Narrow is such an overused term in magic. To a deck like fish it isnt narrow at all... It HITS the MAIN targets that Fish wants too hit... Mana Denial with Fetches... and TINKER... and then can randomly be usful vs. things like gifts, demonic, vamp (for things like balance that will hurt)...

In that sense I fail to see how its narrow... However, in a deck like gifts it is extremely narrow, and I wouldnt run it unless I was extremely concerned about the mirror.

[Imsomniac101]

I'm gonna have to disagree with whoever it was that said Shadow of Doubt is the 3rd best counter. Annul takes that prize, especially because of all the Stax. Now if Shadow of Doubt were to cost one mana I'd disagree but it doesn't

[lordmayhem]

Narrow is such an overused term in magic. To a deck like fish it isnt narrow at all... It HITS the MAIN targets that Fish wants too hit... Mana Denial with Fetches... and TINKER... and then can randomly be usful vs. things like gifts, demonic, vamp (for things like balance that will hurt)...

You say that Shadow isn't narrow at all and then go on to mention that it hits fetches, 3 restricted cards and gifts. How is that not narrow? Can't a Mana Drain/Leak / Fow do the same thing and yet counter other cards that the deck is scared of? With Workshop decks, specifically Stax currently running amok, I don't see how this isn't a narrow counter at all.

[BruiZar]

lordmayhem:

The card does what he has to do to make fish's matchups stronger, therefore it doesnt matter that it doesnt read UU: Win the game.

While stifle is good, stifle can't counter cards that win the game instantly (besides tendrils). Shadow of Doubt has the ability to dodge gifts and tinker which is alot more scary than a tendril. Tendrils is cast from the Gifts Ungiven you countered, had you used stifle your opponent would still have a shitload of cards to will and kill with DSC anyway .

[Gabethebabe]

Shadow of Doubt is not a serious sideboard card in decks running Mana Drain, because they just don´t have the space for it.

Also I don´t think you should run it in Fish. Fish taps out every turn.

So my answer is: no. The card will be tried ... and rejected.

[BruiZar]

I have to agree there, fish does tap out alot, every mana unspent is a mana lost

[Whatever Works]

Shadow of Doubt is not a serious sideboard card in decks running Mana Drain, because they just don´t have the space for it.

Also I don´t think you should run it in Fish. Fish taps out every turn.

So my answer is: no. The card will be tried ... and rejected.

I have to disagree 100%... First off the card has been tried... and was accepted! Also saying that fish taps out alot depends completely on the build. For the crappy fish that runs null rod your right that list does tap out alot.... However, the new UB versions that abuse vial more then ever dont have that issue. My list taps out yes, but generally I dont like to over-extend ( a common error among fish players), and dont need to use all of my withered wretch ability until the very end of a turn, or in responce.

The card is absolute gold, and for the UB fish lists... UB mana is alot lot easier to get then UU.

Also read the card again... It says you draw a card... a card like an annul while nice cant be cast end of turn to essentially cycle itself away like this.

[lordmayhem]

lordmayhem:

The card does what he has to do to make fish's matchups stronger, therefore it doesnt matter that it doesnt read UU: Win the game.

While stifle is good, stifle can't counter cards that win the game instantly (besides tendrils). Shadow of Doubt has the ability to dodge gifts and tinker which is alot more scary than a tendril. Tendrils is cast from the Gifts Ungiven you countered, had you used stifle your opponent would still have a shitload of cards to will and kill with DSC anyway .

Right. So, Counterspell doesn't make Fish's matchups stronger, but a limited counter which cantrips does. I don't see how your explanation showed that its not limited. Again I see Tinker and Gifts mentioned. If you counter Tinker / Gifts with Counterspell, its the same, except you can also counter other things that don't search the library.

[Blitzbold]

I did some testing today with an own build of UB VialFish. The counterbase I used consisted of (the obligatory) 4 FoW as well as 2 Stifle and Shadow of Doubt each. Sometimes I wished that Shadow was Mana Leak until I discovered that I had to use Shadow more aggresively, like on the first or second fetchland. Short of the few instances at which Daze / Mana Leak would have been better, Shadow of Doubt was really great.

[Disburden]

Narrow is such an overused term in magic. To a deck like fish it isnt narrow at all... It HITS the MAIN targets that Fish wants too hit... Mana Denial with Fetches... and TINKER... and then can randomly be usful vs. things like gifts, demonic, vamp (for things like balance that will hurt)...

You say that Shadow isn't narrow at all and then go on to mention that it hits fetches, 3 restricted cards and gifts. How is that not narrow? Can't a Mana Drain/Leak / Fow do the same thing and yet counter other cards that the deck is scared of? With Workshop decks, specifically Stax currently running amok, I don't see how this isn't a narrow counter at all.

I think the point was that Shadow of Doubt hits the following cards:

Crop Rotation
Tinker
All Fetchlands
Vamp
Demonic
Imperial
Mystical
Gifts
mana severance

While Stifle is great to stop fetchlands it doesn't stop the tutors. This is a big issue, you would need mana leak and stifle to stop both of these abilites in a deck. Shadow of Doubt does both these things effectively. So to say that Shadow is narrow to me is true, but not as true to the extent that you say it is. The ability to stop fetchs and all tutors in the game is great, especially to Gifts decks.

"Right. So, Counterspell doesn't make Fish's matchups stronger, but a limited counter which cantrips does. I don't see how your explanation showed that its not limited. Again I see Tinker and Gifts mentioned. If you counter Tinker / Gifts with Counterspell, its the same, except you can also counter other things that don't search the library"

True, mana leak can counter those cards, but only IF they don't pay the cost to allow their tutor to resolve. Counterspell is always double U while Doubt is not. Leak/counterspell doesn't draw you a card for it's life either. Doubt draws you cards and can stop either a fetch break OR a tutor depending on the situation at hand.

[Vegeta2711]

lordmayhem:

The card does what he has to do to make fish's matchups stronger, therefore it doesnt matter that it doesnt read UU: Win the game.

While stifle is good, stifle can't counter cards that win the game instantly (besides tendrils). Shadow of Doubt has the ability to dodge gifts and tinker which is alot more scary than a tendril. Tendrils is cast from the Gifts Ungiven you countered, had you used stifle your opponent would still have a shitload of cards to will and kill with DSC anyway .

Right. So, Counterspell doesn't make Fish's matchups stronger, but a limited counter which cantrips does. I don't see how your explanation showed that its not limited. Again I see Tinker and Gifts mentioned. If you counter Tinker / Gifts with Counterspell, its the same, except you can also counter other things that don't search the library.

What part of 'Draw a card' in a tempo based deck, do you not understand? It counters the spell at no loss of cards to you. When you have a deck with limited resources, this is the getting the most bang for your buck.

It's narrow in the sense it can only counter certain types of cards, of course those also happen to be the ones that wreck you...

[Methuselahn]

I would consider the card as maindeck material for a control/combo heavy meta if I were playing a Keeper or Fish deck.  I think the card should really be played alongside Wasteland and/or Mana Drain, it seems like it could really compliment that strategy well.  Shadow of Doubt should be maindeck if it would be in Fish at all and that it wouldn't want to waste sideboard slots on it. Considering this, it may be a hot sideboard card in a Gifts deck for the mirror where Workshops and Aggro have a decent presence in it's metagame.

Shadow of Doubt is a solid card.  I really love the fact that it comes online Turn 1 with not only Mox Sapphire, but with Mox Jet too.  It just has to fit the role and be there when you need it.  Frankly, I haven't done a lot of testing, so I'm not sure of actual results.  Also, I'm not so sure I can follow this thread all too seriously because the card is not being wholly discussed in the context of it being a sideboard card.

[rakso]

What part of 'Draw a card' in a tempo based deck, do you not understand? It counters the spell at no loss of cards to you.

I'm not sure, considering "tempo" isn't the theory that deals with drawing cards...

[Liam-K]

Shadow of Doubt is a bad hate card.  If you're going to side out 4 cards for hate, you are probably siding out better cards. (edit: if that hate is Shadow.  Point being it doesn't really hate.)

It IS a good tempo card against scroll gifts.  Since there are at least 3 sorts of gifts decks running around, you're probably better off choosing a sideboard card that works well against the oath and TFK (and salvagers and belcher etc) versions too though.  The graveyard is a better and more vulnerable target.

I don't know if it will be good in U/B fish.  I think you'll want to tap your mana too much.

[Smmenen]

Shadow of Doubt is probably the best non Drain non FoW counter we have access to.

agreed

What happened to Red Elemental Blast?  I think REB is the best non drain, non fow counter. 

[rakso]

What most pros including Smmenen fail to realize is that Red Elemental Blast only counters blue cards, even if it also destroys blue permanents.

Besides, it doesn't draw a card. Bad tempo, you know, like the man said.

[Jacob Orlove]

What part of 'Draw a card' in a tempo based deck, do you not understand? It counters the spell at no loss of cards to you.

I'm not sure, considering "tempo" isn't the theory that deals with drawing cards...

Yes, it is.

Now let's get back on topic here, people.

[Fubar]

Anyone using it as a wish tutor?  Like my URb goth slaver build?