Banning Tinker and Yawgmoths Will

[xrobx]

As the topic says, this discussion is meant to be about the cards Tinker and Yawgmoths will.  As we all know, both of these cards have been around for ages, and have always been played in control decks everywhere.  Not only do these cards see play in control, they see play in anything that can run black, or blue.  With the unrestriction of portal, and the therefore unbanning of the tutors, my belief that the format is about casting one of these two cards is greatly supported.

Although the new tutors may/may not see play in control or combo-esq type decks, they do raise the relevant topic for discussion about the undenyable power of these two cards in question.  Sure, I love both of these cards.  Don't get me wrong, I think they are great and quite amazing in every single aspect; the cards power, the artwork, the playability factors, its all there.  However, the point I'd like to raise is that these two cards define the format and therefore influence the way type 1 is played entirely.  Not that influencing is a bad thing, but these cards do show negative side effects, maybe not so visible at first glance.

Tinker - > Colossus.  Enough said.  It can happen in any deck, to any deck, and at any time.  It has some basic and obvious advantages:
-adds extreme power to random top decks
-is playable by any deck with a blue source and an artifact

The problem here is that you either a) need to run this card to compete or b) need to have maindeck solutions to deal with this card, because everyone is running it* **I know not everyone, but the point here is the majority.

Second, the same applies with yawgmoths will.  You need to run it if you run black, and even if you're playing monoU, you need to run it as a splash.  Often times people splash black for DT and will.
The obvious advantages:
-adds extreme power to random top decks
-is playable by any deck with a black source


Obvious advantages aside, we begin to gather knowledge about the power of these two cards and realize that YES they are defining the format due to the simple fact that they must be played if you are competing on a tier 1 level (tournament play).

Why is this bad?  Well, for starters it turns a lot of people off the format.  If they know that the format revolves around casting these spells and peoples abilities to cast them, new players will tend to lean towards other formats such as legacy where the cards required to utilize will and tinker to their maximum extent don't cost ridiculous amounts of money.  Yes, vintage is a format for "elite" players if you want to call them that.  That doesn't mean that since A has more money than B, A should win.  I'm not suggesting magic is a game based on money either; I'm quite happy with the recent allowments of proxies in most major events.  It's great to get new people into the game.  However, this is not the issue at hand.

I'd like to hear peoples thoughts and opinions on this topic, as I know it's probably been in some peoples minds forever and I haven't seen any discussions about it on the boards.

So then...

What are the requirements to ban a card?
Do either of these two cards meet that requirement?
Is the format okay with every deck designed to fulfill one purpose and cast a will/tinker?**


Thoughts are greatly welcome and appreciated.


**Note:  I know there are tons of decks out there.  The majority of the decks that do well run these 2 cards

[Mantis]

Go play legacy? Will and Tinker are key to this format, I think banning them would wreck vintage and turn it into one of the formats we already have. In short not a good idea.

[xrizzo]

This discussion has already been had here: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=23926.0

Do we really need to re-hash all this?

[sean1i0]

The first thing I would like say is that these two cards do not define the format...the P9 do.  Secondly, Vintage is a format that restricts, not bans.  And besides, a tinkered DSC isn't any more unfair than anything else in the format.  A tinkered DSC with two time walks, now that's awesome, but it's part of a combo.

The only two you could even consider banning, forgetting for a moment that cards aren't banned in Vintage because of power level, is Yawgmoth's Will.  Yes, Will is one of the best cards in the game.  Yes, even if the P9 or any of the other grossly overpowered cards didn't exist, Will would still be one of the most powerful cards in the game.  Yes, it is the late game plan for every control deck in the format and the first or secondary plan for many of the combo decks in the format.  It is grossly overpowered in a way that comes close to doing to the format what the P9 do, but the fact of the matter is that Vintage is about playing with those types of cards.  Vintage is the format that restricts cards.

So with that in mind, my opinion, as I'm sure you've guessed by now, is that neither of the two cards should be banned.

[dandan]

If you start banning cards because they are the best way to win at any given time, you'll end up with a format with Squire Vs. Sorrow's Path. I think that with Legacy getting support, it is harder to make a case for banning cards in Vintage, as Legacy already is Vintage with much of the unfair brokenness removed. About the only reasonable case for banning Will was that it would allow other cards/decks to emerge but historically, Vintage has always used roughly the same number of cards at any time, regardless of the B&R list, so I'm not convinced even by that argument.

[Wollblad]

In the early history of Vintage cards were actually banned. Mind Twist and Channel were considered too powerful. I cannot explained exactly why they were banned, but I think it was much because there was no answere to first turn cards (Fireball+Lotus+Channel).No one spoke about restricting the moxes and such just because a few cards were banned. Nowadays the situation is different with many free counters.

Tinker isn't a problem. You still have two turns to respond to a Colossus. Yawgmoth's Will on the other hand is way too powerful, it adds too much randomness and "whoops, I won" situations. If we for a moment consider banning Yawgmoth's Will and then shutting the door again saying that no other cards should be banned ever more (impossible I know, but lets pretend it can happen). Should anyone be really sorry and think that it would destroy the format? I think that it would open up Vintage making the format so much more fun.

[dandan]

There are quite a number of spells that mean you win if they resolve. YawgWill is just one of the cheapest/easiest to set up. Banning it wouldn't suddenly allow Stompy and Sligh to come out to play. Another card would be the next best and that would not be an order of magnitude worse. The best deckbuilders use the best cards. If banned, they'd start tweaking decks to use the next best card. Note that at least YawgWill needs a set-up. What if the next best option is a completely non-interactive one?
In addition, note that the abundance of Welder and Gifts has led to far far maindeck graveyard hate than ever before, a metagame trend that has weakened Will, even though I rarely despair when I topdeck a Will.

[Wollblad]

@dandan
Sure it wouldn't allow Stompy and genuinely bad decks to enter, but I think that Y. Will is one order of magnitude worse than anything else and how could anyting be less interactive than Yawgmoth's Will? About 90 % of all FTK includes Y. Will. That's pretty non-interactive. Graveyard hate doesn't work either. You cannot sideboard cards against a single Y. Will sitting with them in hand as dead resources just waiting for your opponent to eventually play his Will. You and everyone else know that. You didn't however answere my question. Would banning Yawgmoth's Will be bad for the format?

EDIT: by the way, Will doesn't need setup. It only needs you to do whatever you would do anyhow, i.e. play spells.

[dandan]

EDIT: by the way, Will doesn't need setup. It only needs you to do whatever you would do anyhow, i.e. play spells.

In Vintage if you can play spells without your opponent inteferring then you will probably win or the spells you are playing are less than ideal.

Regarding a Will-less Vintage, good or bad are subjective. Is Legacy good? In my opinion it is. Is Vintage good? Again IMHO yes. Would banning Will result in a better or worse format? Kind of depends if you prefer Vintage or Legacy.

I think basically I'm in the 'If it isn't broke, don't fix it' camp and the 'In Vintage, broken things happen' wing of that camp.

You are asking for change. Justify why you think it is necessary.

[Gabethebabe]

Black Lotus is better than Yawgmoth´s Will
It fits in ANY deck
It allows first turn brokenness
Without lotus combo would be stone dead
It makes crap like Yawgmoths Will playable  :lol:
The format is more defined by the existence of Black Lotus than it is by Will.

We shouldn´t ban cards in T1.

[Wollblad]

Regarding a Will-less Vintage, good or bad are subjective. Is Legacy good?

Once again then. Would banning Will and only Will, no other card be bad for the format? It is a theoretical question but please try to answere the question and no other question. Banning only Will won't make Legacy out of Vintage, but if that is your oppinion, then it is more urgent than I thought to ban Will because then you are arguing that Vintage is one card only.

[Marton]

If you ban will, you end up making mana drain even better than it already is. By removing yawgmoth's will, you make combo pretty much absolete for the most part. By removing combo, you make only aggro, control and prison dominate (and dragon somewhere in there). This can only lead to a much worse case where control ends up dominating all, because the prison archetype has historically been ruined by a resurgence of rack and ruin.

[Anusien]

Go play Legacy.
No seriously.  Ban Yawgmoth's Will, unrestrict every card that's on the banned list because of it, and that's just the P9 away from Legacy.  The only other change is to rebalance the format by removing Shop and Drain, and then removing Academy.

This really doesn't need to be gone over again, but as long as Fish and Shop decks are viable contenders, there is no appearant reason to ban Will.  If Will has such superiority, then why have Stax builds been dominating recently (SCG Richmond aside)?

[doylehancock]

this discussion is crap.  close this.

If you ban will you will end vintage.  The number of vintage players would plumet as well as the price of power.

[forests failed you]

I think that you are looking in the wrong direction if you are trying to correct the 'brokeness' problem of VIntage.  Will and Tinker are nothing, NOTHING, next to the stupid power of Black Lotus.  I have said this time, and time, and time, and time and again.  Black Lotus is a very, very Stupid card.  It is heads and tails above anything that has ever been printed since.  Almost every brokeness problem of Vintage would be solved if this card does not exist. 

I consider myself a fairly solid Vintage player, but when even the scrubbiest player drops turn one Lotus, I know there is a very solid possibility that I may not be able to actually win the game anymore. 

I am not advocating banning anything, I like Vintage just the way it is.  But seriously, if you are truly going to try and make an arguement for the correct card to ban... at least name the correct one.  WIll would be completely unstellar without Lotus in most archetypes.

Here is my arguement for why Lotus is stupid.  I been keeping track since January, and I have now won my last 49 consecutive games where I was on the play and had Lotus in my opening hand.  Land, Lotus, pass... How can you possibly lose?

[Jacob Orlove]

Forum rules are here: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=18027.0

If you haven't read them in the past few months, give them another look.

Topic Closed.