Card Re-evaluation?

[Upinthe]

I think we need to re-evaluate some of the cards on the master list. Since new cards have come out, some of the cards on the list have become ridiculuosly broken. It might not seem fair to have to change ours because we created them first. However, anybody who looks at the list isn't going to know that and won't take it seriously at all....
Here are some examples:

Perimeter Alarm 4

Artifact
Whenever a creature comes into play under an opponent's control, you may pay . If you do, choose one -- untap all lands you control or draw a card.

This now creates infinite mana with Forbidden Orchard....

Hogkeeper's Tome 4
Artifact
Whenever a token creature comes into play, you may draw a card.
The Hogkeeper describes every creature that crosses his terrain in here. His knowledge of the forest is unprecedented.

This was broken before, and now it's simply insane! Beacon of Creation anyone? Forbidden Orchard?

Blast Furnace 1
T, remove three cards in your graveyard from the game: Add 2 to your mana pool.
Time to bust out my dredge cards, eh?

Crumbling Asylum W

World Enchantment
Players may not be the target of spells and abilities.
Long ago, wizards built the Asylum to hold the world's madness. Now, their mighty wards begin to fail.

I don't know how this originally made it to the list. There are a ton of cards that have a drawback referring to target opponent.

[dandan]

I remember a lot of negative feedback about the whole Hogkeeper cycle anyway.

Perimeter Alarm isn't so tricky, make it untap nonbasics (still strong though)

Hogkeeper's Tome, make it cost 5 and keep your fingers crossed

Blast Furnace - this one isn't that bad as you still can't really use it early. Having said that it is still probably too good. Make it remove the bottom 3? (at least takes away the Dredge cards, as you can't chose what to remove) Or 3 cards of opponent's choice? Changing it to 4 takes away a lot of general functionality but does little to balance it in conjunction with Dredge.

[Marco]

As the creator of Blast Furnace, I must admit that it took me a long time to accept the comments that it should remove three cards rather than two. Now, I know that three is a more realistic number. Dredge is a broken mechanic, agreed. However, by the time you have dredged three or six or nine cards into your graveyard, you'd have enough mana to cast Ur-Golem's Eye (or Sisay's Ring), which is Blast Furnace without the drawback.

[Matt]

Blast Furnace might still be okay.

Perimeter Alarm - this isn't even as good as Intruder Alarm. I think it's fine.

Hog Tome - change it to "whenever a token CIP, you may pay 2. if you do, draw a card."

Asylum - so what?

[Ephraim]

Upinthe, to elaborate on Matt's "So what," remember that those cards that have a penalty involving "target opponent" can't even be played while Crumbling Asylum is in play, since you don't have a legal target.

[SpencerForHire]

I was looking through some of the colors and it seemed a bunch of the smaller creatures (red) were extremely undercosted and/or overpowered.

[Bram]

I remember a lot of negative feedback about the whole Hogkeeper cycle anyway.

That was mostly about the names, though. This one and possibly the decree were the only ones with a realtively high power level.

I was looking through some of the colors and it seemed a bunch of the smaller creatures (red) were extremely undercosted and/or overpowered.

I don't doubt it. If you find any, be sure to post them here. For the most part, I really don't care too much, though. The Master List is a repository for what we've done here. Cards with too high a power level will not make it to our set(s) unaltered. It's like with names. There's 4 or 5 cards that would require new names since Wizards used the name in a recent set. I say fuck that; no need to change till we include them in a set.

[SpencerForHire]

I agree and after looking back through I think it would be too much effort to balance all those cards if they aren't going into a set.  If the maker of the card wants to pull them back out of the vaults than sure, but I really couldn't care if a 2/2 with some minor penalty has to be rebalanced for really no reason.

[dandan]

A while back, there was certainly a feeling that we should have some strong weenies/mid-range creatures. In any case Wizards have recently printed 2/2s for W, you'd never get that through here (or indeed a 3/2 Wall for Red (Red the colour of solid defense?). Watchwolf is probably stronger than most of our weenies anyway.

[Upinthe]

Upinthe, to elaborate on Matt's "So what," remember that those cards that have a penalty involving "target opponent" can't even be played while Crumbling Asylum is in play, since you don't have a legal target.

I'm more concerned about creatures with negative stuff in their triggered abilities, like [card]Descendant of Masumaro[/card]

[Jacob Orlove]

Unless there's some lethal two card combo here, I'm not really worried. So what if the Asylum turns into the next Intruder Alarm?

[Nefarias]

Both of these cards are in the Artifact Master List.

Spectral Lens
Artifact
As Spectral Lens comes into play, choose a color.
Spells you play cost one mana less of the chosen color to play.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=21122.0

Touchstone Medallion
Artifact
As Touchstone Medallion comes into play, choose a color.
All spells of the chosen color cost one mana of the chosen color less to play.

I can't find the original Touchstone Medallion thread, but I believe it predates Spectral Lens.

Yes, technically, they are slightly different, but they are very practically the same card.

[Matt]

Hah, nice. Also, we need to rename Terraformer and Override.

[Matt]

I think we still have two cards both named Sleuth of Bears.

[GerryMander]

ok, blast furnace is very easy to fix.  I'll fix it right now!

Blast Furnace 2
Whenever a card would be put into your graveyard from play, remove it from the game instead.
T, Remove three cards in your graveyard from the game: Add 2 to your mana pool.

[Illissius]

Hah, nice. Also, we need to rename Terraformer and Override.

Override could become Contradict. (Though I doubt it'll be very long before Wizards uses that one as well ;).

I also saw a couple of cards which effectively were "When X happens, draw your library and lose the game.", and other such things. Maybe I'll go through it again to find them sometime.

[GerryMander]

Corrupted Fields

Enchantment
Whenever a land is tapped for mana, it produces black mana instead of its normal type.
: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Any player may play this ability.

I dunno, this card seems too good to me.  This card says anything with more than one single color in its mana cost costs a helluva lot more to play [Hinder costs 7 mana to play w/ this out].

I suggest this:

Corrupted Fields

Enchantment
Whenever a land is tapped for mana, it produces black mana instead of its normal type.
: Remove Corrupted Fields from the game.  At end of turn, return Corrupted Fields to play.  Any player may play this ability.

Also, I have a problem w/ this cycle


Vow Cycle

Vow of Silence

Enchantment
When you play a spell, sacrifice Vow of Silence.
If you would draw a card, instead draw two cards.
I shall speak no more.

Vow of Seclusion

Enchantment
When you control four or more lands, sacrifice Vow of Seclusion.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may search your library for a forest card, reveal that card to all players, and put that card into your hand. If you do, shuffle your library.
I shall not wander far from your branches.

Vow of Eternal Servitude

Enchantment
When a creature card is put into your graveyard, sacrifice Vow of Eternal Servitude.
Creature spells in your graveyard may be played as though they were in your hand.
Your lives shall not end while I still have use for them.

Vow of Brotherhood

Enchantment
If you control creatures with combined power greater than ten, sacrifice Vow of Brotherhood.
Creature spells you play cost  less to play. This effect reduces only the amount of colored mana you pay.
While others find strength in numbers, I shall find strength in you.

End of Vow Cycle

These cards seem pretty good.  Too good if you ask me.  If you resolve Vow of Brotherhood in White Weenie, you can possibly drop a good 3 - 4 creatures on turn 2.  That seems amazing.

Vow of Eternal Servitute is an infinite reanimator?  Come on!

How come green got a better Land Tax?  I thought Land Tax was too good to see reprinted...

Vow of Silence is crazy with Standstill.  Hell, it is Standstill 5-8!

[Mindstab_Thrull]

I think we need to re-evaluate some of the cards on the master list. Since new cards have come out, some of the cards on the list have become ridiculuosly broken. It might not seem fair to have to change ours because we created them first. However, anybody who looks at the list isn't going to know that and won't take it seriously at all....
Here are some examples:

Perimeter Alarm
4
Artifact
Whenever a creature comes into play under an opponent's control, you may pay . If you do, choose one -- untap all lands you control or draw a card.

This now creates infinite mana with Forbidden Orchard....

Hogkeeper's Tome
4
Artifact
Whenever a token creature comes into play, you may draw a card.
The Hogkeeper describes every creature that crosses his terrain in here. His knowledge of the forest is unprecedented.

This was broken before, and now it's simply insane! Beacon of Creation anyone? Forbidden Orchard?

Blast Furnace
1
T, remove three cards in your graveyard from the game: Add 2 to your mana pool.

Time to bust out my dredge cards, eh?

Crumbling Asylum
W
World Enchantment
Players may not be the target of spells and abilities.
Long ago, wizards built the Asylum to hold the world's madness. Now, their mighty wards begin to fail.

I don't know how this originally made it to the list. There are a ton of cards that have a drawback referring to target opponent.

Perimeter Alarm can simply have 'nontoken' added in front of 'creature'. The Tome should probably read 'comes into play under your control' or 'comes into play under target opponent's control'; alternatively, there should IMO be a mana cost involved with its ability a la the Lucky Charms (in other words, something like 'Whenever a creature token comes into play, you may pay 2. If you do, draw a card.'). Blast Furnace combos well with Dredge, but I don't think it's enough of an issue to worry about. And Crumbling Asylum has the 'drawback' of being white. By that I mean while White is fine in Standard, older formats don't tend to look so fondly on it apart from Very Old Cards like Swords to Plowshares and Balance. The question is, is White worth splashing 'just' for this card?