Vintage impact of recent sets

[vroman]

UPDATED 11-6

Ive been steadily updating this list for awhile. the cards are categorized by how theyve fared into the current metagame. the Tried and failed category is probably the most controversial. I basically include cards that I remember getting a lot of hype that never panned out, or that were once played and have since fallen aside. all subjective of course, and probably slightly biased towards shop decks bc thats what I paid the closest attention to. I only wrote lists for the last 3 blocks, bc I started playing when mirrodin was released so I dont know what was played before onslaught block. I will wait on Ravnica for now

Ravnica: City of Guilds (theoretical)
Major Impact
darkblast

Minor Impact
dark confidant
relevent transmute cards
razia boros angel (Im not yet convinced this is actually better than spirit of the night, but Ill give it the benefit of the doubt)

Tried and Failed
supresion field
neo-duals
shadow of doubt

Saviors Kamigawa
Major Impact:
none

Minor Impact:
pithing needle
kataki war wage

Tried and Failed:
erayo, soratami ascendant
twincast
ideas unbound

Betrayers Kamigawa
Major Impact:
umezawas jitte

Minor Impact:
ninja deep hours
kira great glass spinner

Tried and Failed:
orb of dreams
disrupting shoal
tendo ice bridge

Champions of Kamigawa
Major Impact:
gifts ungiven
forbidden orchard
uba mask

Minor Impact:
senseis divining top
kiki-jiki mirror breaker
kumano master yamabushi

Tried and Failed
boseiju who shelters all
cranial extraction
glimpse nature
samurai pale curtain

Fifth Dawn
Major Impact
crucible of worlds

Minor Impact
beacon destruction
possessed portal
razormane masticore
engineered explosives
auriok salvagers

Tried and Failed
staff of domination
artificers intuition
acquire
eternal witness
eon hub
vedalken shackles

Darksteel
Major Impact
trinisphere
darksteel colossus

Minor Impact
aether vial
sundering titan
echoing truth
oxidize
pristine angel

Tried and Failed
skullclamp
memnarch
arcbound ravager
spawning pit

Mirrodin
Major Impact
chalice void
goblin charbelcher
mindslaver
thirst knowledge

Minor Impact
chrome mox
pentavus
duplicant
artifact lands
spellbombs
spoils of vault

Tried and Failed
isochron scepter
platinum angel
lightning greaves
glimmervoid
gilded lotus
damping matrix
sculpting steel

Scourge
Major Impact
tendrils agony
goblin warchief
mind's desire (honorary mention)

Minor Impact
stifle
siege gang commander
xantid swarm

Tried and Failed
decree of justice
pyrostatic pillar
brain freeze
form of dragon

Legions
Major Impact
none

Minor Impact
akroma angel of wrath
gempalm incinerator

Tried and Failed
caller of claw
phage untouchable

Onslaught
Major Impact
fetchlands
goblin piledriver

Minor Impact
goblin sharpshooter
exalted angel
chain of vapor
naturalize
true beleiver

Tried and Failed
future sight
voidmage prodigy

[Smmenen]

I disagree with your characterization of Mind's Desire as a minor impact.

Desire was so powerful that it was pre-emptively restricted - something which has never happened before in Vintage.  They even let Chrome Mox sit in the format for several months before restricting it.  I wouldn't also say that Goblin Warcheif is a major impact in Vintage.   You also may want to include Spoils of the Vault in your mirrodin list either in minor impact or tried and failed. 

[vartemis]

The only 3 i don't agree with and would like to hear your reasoning on are eternal witness, platinum angel, and caller of claw.  Both witness and caller are still being used in dragon builds and should at least be minor impacts.  The angel in my opinion is a major impact.  it is sided in oath a lot, and used in many welder decks.  Trying to figure out how to kill your opponent with an angel in play or in the grave with the ability of recursion is a common occurrence, or at least around here.

Other than that, great summary.

j

[Kasuras]

Since you have included Spellbombs as a minor impact, I think Damping Matrix should be there as well since it was played in 4cc and was a strong card in it of, in my opinion, the same strength as Spellbombs.

Second, I think only the blue Spellbomb should be on that list.

Also; genjus?

[Zeke]

I would say that Sundering Titan had a major impact.  While it may not be that powerful at the moment...it's presence changed the way people built their mana bases.

[PipOC]

I would say that uba mask is a minor impact, while uba stax is certainly a fine deck, it's just a variation on a preexisting deck.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I would promote Voidmage and True Believer to a minor impact if the UW Fish deck from SCG Chicago makes another showing.  It also seems as though Sword U/R and Night's Whisper both made their way into relevant decklists before failing.

[LotusHead]

Tried and Failed
staff of domination
artificers intuition
acquire
auriok salvagers
eternal witness
eon hub

Tried and failed? No on tries Salvagers at the SCG/Waterbury tournies. 
That's why it fails. Salvager freaks succeed with it very well, fighting through all the hate (with Tinker for Colossus backup, of course)

It merrits at least as much impact as Possessed Portal, which sees play in exactly 2 decks (CA and my own stupid Gaea Welder deck) and Beacon of Destruction, which sees play in exactly 0 decks (who can pilot Doomsday 5+ rounds of swiss and not die to drains, Shops, etc?)

I will grant that Salvagers has not had the impact that Gifts Ungiven and Crucible of Worlds has had. Or Thrist For Knowledge. or Darksteel Colossus. But at least put it up there with Beacon of Destruction!

There, I said it.

[Cross]

I think this is an interesting list, but are you drawing any conclusions from it? The amount of cards on a particular list may be interesting if you calculate percentages based on the numbers of cards in a particular set, once we've all agreed on their impact of course.

As far as things I think are off:

In Betrayers block the fish stuff should be bumped up a notch. Ninja at least had a huge impact on the format when it came out, as fish turned around and won waterbury, and fish was huge for a month or two until everyone played workshop aggro to squelch it. Also, Kira is still played in fish sideboards.

The artifact lands should probably be dropped down to tried and failed, unless you're talking about them individually where darksteel citadel, and to some extent seat of the synod had minor impacts in CS.

Future sight and brain freeze are used in top combo, and should be a minor effects, freeze is also used in TPS sideboards.

[Summit]

Does anyone else feel that Akroma angel of wrath deserves a bit more value than minor impact.  It really is the best card from that set, and Oath, while having other options, doesn't have as great a finisher as Akroma.  I also think the fish cards Kira and Ninja deserve more credit than 'minor impact'.  Unless of course, you consider sideboard worthy only as a minor impact.   I also think Sword of Fire and Ice deserves a nod as arguably having the most impact an equipment card has had next to the Jitte.

[Jank Golem]

Auriok Salvagers deserves a minor impact. Bomberman has had varied success, however salvagers oath has had much more success. It is by no means tried and failed, some my even make the arguement that it could be a major impact but it is atleast a minor impact. I would also put future sight as a minor impact because it is played in sensei, sensei. Personally I would like to see cranial extraction as a minor impact too, but that is just my opinion.

[Komatteru]

This is a neat idea, and I mostly agree with your characterizations.  I agree that Desire needs to be moved up.  The whole pre-restriction thing is extremely significant.

As for Akroma, it really only has a minor impact.  Sure, it's the best thing Oath has, but look at it this way.  Cards that have had major impacts need to have spawned new archetypes, or made existing archetypes powerful/consistant enough to be viable in the metagame.  Akroma does not make Oath work.  If Akroma didn't exist, there are a number of other viable substitutes that wouldn't really diminish the deck's significance.  Look at the other cards in the major impact lists.  Trinisphere, Crucible, Tendrils, Forbidden Orchard, Gifts Ungiven etc.  The first two made Workshops into a force to be reckoned with, and the others there all created entire new decks.  Same thing with Thirst for Knowledge.  Slaver would just not exist without that card.

[xrizzo]

Unless of course, you consider sideboard worthy only as a minor impact.

Sideboard consideration = minor impact

Auriok Salvagers deserves a minor impact.

At least minor impact.  Not sure how many tournies you have to T8 for the centerpiece of a new archtype to be major...

I agree that Desire needs to be moved up.  The whole pre-restriction thing is extremely significant.

Not sure I agree here.  The pre-restriction meerly says the card is powerful, not the impact its had on vintage.   Going back to Salvagers, I have seen way more Salvagers than Desires in tournaments. 

Tried and Failed:
ideas unbound

This may change.  I always thought Twincast sucked, and Erayo has been difficult to build a deck around, but Ideas Unbound may eventually be used somewhere.  I know the list is for current impact, so I don't think it should change, but this card is still on my 'watch list.'

[Smmenen]

The phraseology is just "Major impact."  Getting restricted before being legal certainly qualifies under the ambiguous phrase "major impact." 

[Limbo]

First off, nice list.

Second, you list some cards in the category "tried and failed", but maybe they should be in "played but now obsolete". Decree of Justice for example, did not fail, it is just not usable anymore. Same for Future Sight, Pyro Pillar. Just a minor nitpick really.

Arcbound Ravager has the chance to become used some more as well to be honest. I have it seen growing to enourmous sizes

[Liam-K]

Thoughtcast can probably go in under tried and failed.

[Methuselahn]

The phraseology is just "Major impact."  Getting restricted before being legal certainly qualifies under the ambiguous phrase "major impact." 

I think the lists could be more clear in their intention.  It certainly seems as if Smmenen here and others are evaluating the cards on the list as how strong they are independently whereas vroman may have created the list more akin to "Pip stats."  As I read the cards in the list, I get the impression that the list reflects numbers from tournaments and not power level.  This would explain Goblin Warchief being major and Mind's Desire being minor.

vroman does admit that the list is subjective, so I dunno.  Last I heard, his part of town has always been Stax, FCG, and CS heavy.

That said, I would consider Salvagers as a major impact.

[Lunar]

There are a number of the cards that I disagree with, but it is all 100% relative, and much of it could be explained away by a more in depth classification by vroman on what consitutes major/minor/failed...

tendo and glimmervoid may still have potential (hey purplehat ran glimmervoids to top 8 at worlds right?)

eternal witness has had success as well in some dragon lists.

platinum angel made the original oath deck just lose...it is still relevant at times and is still used in sideboards such as oath...

salvagers has already been explained by a few.

Plus a lot of your other choices are very time relevant...exalted angel was a major bomb for quite a while, and still pops up from time to time. Akroma was pretty good last I checked, Minds Desire is broken broken and should warrent more attention..even if long today isnt as good as the original long.dec...its still uber broken.

Interesting list overall, but im not sure how relevant it is in the long run, lots of cards that you can switch in and out of spots...

[nataz]

Cards that have had major impacts need to have spawned new archetypes, or made existing archetypes powerful/consistant enough to be viable in the metagame.

under this set I think that vial and jitte should be major considering w/o them there would be no chalice fish.

[The Atog Lord]

I would have Darksteel Citadel under Minor Impact, if not Major.

[Dr_Moo]

I disagree with a few other things, but I'll only note the biggest: Exalted Angel had a minor impact on Vintage? It may not see play now, but it wasn't that long ago that Keeper/4cc was one of the top decks.

[Jacob Orlove]

I disagree with a few other things, but I'll only note the biggest: Exalted Angel had a minor impact on Vintage? It may not see play now, but it wasn't that long ago that Keeper/4cc was one of the top decks.

Yes, but Exalted Angel was just the kill mechanism there. It was great for the deck that Angel was available, but it wasn't the make-or-break card.

[forests failed you]

Vedelken Shackles?  It is a pretty good SB card, especailly in Slaver.

[Smmenen]

The phraseology is just "Major impact."  Getting restricted before being legal certainly qualifies under the ambiguous phrase "major impact." 

I think the lists could be more clear in their intention.  It certainly seems as if Smmenen here and others are evaluating the cards on the list as how strong they are independently

I'm not sure my take on it shouold be construed that narrowly. 

When Mind's Desire was spoiled, the impact was nothing less than like an atom bomb was dropped upon the Vintage community.  I leaked Lordofthe Goats "Slurpy" list to Oscar Tan, whcih he published, and a spate of absolutely broken, yet completely untuned Mind's Desire decks were released over a week before the restricted list annoucement, which coincided with its pending legalityl.  The cards impact was immediate, revolutionary, and absolutely format shattering.  It's preemptive restriction was not only smart, it was necessary.  I fail to see how that doesn't qualify as "major impact." 

[The Atog Lord]

I agree with Steve.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that even in its restricted state, Mind's Desire remains a defining card for modern storm-based combo decks. Its existence often makes a Vampiric Tutor into a must-counter against control.

[Methuselahn]

the cards are categorized by how theyve fared into the current metagame.

The above statement, with it's ambiguous phraseology, tells me that the list doesn't care about why cards are restricted or how bomby they are.  Rather, how much play they are getting.  All talk about crazy Desire decks and it's preemptive restriction are meaningless in the context of why this list was made.  When I see the cards on the list under 'Major Impact' they all seem to be consistently played in many decks and/or define the archetype. 

Basically, I just don't see enough Mind's Desires being played globally to warrant it having major metagame impact status, according to the context of the list.  Maybe vroman can chime in here and elaborate as to what this list means.  If what I said is off, then I would totally agree with the Desire assessment.

[sampling_percus]

Where are all these desire lists, i'd love to have a go with them, or did they remain unpublished?

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

I whould not place Pyrostatic Pillar in the tried and failed section.
It's a very good sideboardcard vs any storm based combo deck and vs many other combo decks like helm of awakening or salvager.

[Buttons]

I would say that uba mask is a minor impact, while uba stax is certainly a fine deck, it's just a variation on a preexisting deck.

Are you serious?  Vroman has won the past TWO SCG events.

Have you ever played UbaStax as opposed to 5c?  It's different.  Not completely different, but different enough for them to definitely be considered different decks.

I mean, look at this:

5c runs FIVE COLORS.   Uba runs ONE.  What GREAT deck in vintage, right now, is MONO colored, and MONO RED at that?  Even FCG has a more diverse manabase than UbaStax - and yet it's pulled off.

Uba's lock is MUCH harder to break.   Uba goes for a hard lock almost 100% of the time, nearly NEVER going for a 'soft lock'.  (which 5c does with sphere and tangle wire, both of which are alot easier to get around than uba mask, because you can continue to build up your hand and manabase  - this is, of course, assuming that they don't have something hard like smokestack or cruicible/strip - which both decks run)

UbaStax runs BAZAARS.  Uba is all about control by way of CARD-ADVANTAGE.  5c is all about control by way of DELAY.

UbaStax is almost 100% OFFENSIVE, 5c is much more DEFENSIVE.

The decks are different, and they play differently.  You can't just lump Ubastax into being a homebrewed spinoff an established deck that somehow made a top8.  IT WON THE PAST TWO SCG EVENTS.

Oh yeah, and the simple fact that 5c almost rolls to Ubastax is fact enough that they should be considered different.  Vroman has said before that '5c is not a problem for UbaStax.'  And he's absolutely right.

[Limbo]

Looks like Robert has a groupie