Bird Sh*t, or u/w/g threshold

[The Chosen One]

First off, I apologize if there is already a thread about this type of deck, I looked, and didn't see one, but I am new to the site and might have not looked in the right places

Secondly, I noticed that a deck of this basic structure made it into the top 16 at the Waterbury tournament. I would like to know what the overall matchups are like in the the metagame and what everyone thinks of my version and ideas for strengthening the deck... Here is the list I am looking at running

Mana-
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Plains
1 Island
(lack of power due to me playing with no proxies)

Creatures-
4 Meddling Mage
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear

Counter, Draw-
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Gush
4 Brainstorm

Denial-
3 Null Rod
2 Misdirection
3 Stifle

Removal-
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Rushing River

Sideboard
3 Sacred Ground
3 Annul
4 Orim's Chant
1 Null rod
4 Ground Seal


Well, there is my list.. After looking at several other builds I noticed the common trend of running Gush... My question(and please God don't let me sound stupid for asking), but, Why Gush? I understand the casting cost evasion is excellent, but what to do with the two islands you had to bounce back? I would think that Gush would be better paired off into a deck with wild mongrels or at least anything that would allow you to maybe ditch the cards to help your threshold count... I would greatly appreciate any feedback from people who have played with or against this type of deck.. Thanks to all

[Sgt. Pepper]

The reason Gush is so good is because it's free. It's like a weak Ancestral Recall in the right deck. In Birdshit, for example, you tend to run out of cards causing your lands to just sit there and do nothing. Thats why returning some of those land to your hand doesn't matter, it's not like they where doing much anyway. Gush then reads "0 mana- Instant- Draw 2 cards", which is good.

As for improving you're deck, we need a bit more info. How does your metagame look like? How big is you're budget? Which decks are you having trouble with so far?

Without any answers to these questions we can only give you general information, which might not be best for your situation.

In general I would lose the Rushing Rivers. This deck doesn't run a lot of land, and some of those lands tend to get sacrificed to disrupt your opponent or fetch another land and thus thin out your deck. Getting to 3 mana can be a pain. Perhaps Pithing Needle, Oxidize or Echoing Truth would be better forms of hate. I would also review your manabase. Currently, you leave yourself wide open to be owned by a Crucible.

[Marton]

you definately should run 1 weathered wayfarer. The wayfarer can be used to fetch that strip and 4x waste, and most importantly, the LOA. Use it in response to the sacrifice of the fetch/strip/wate, so that you get less lands than your opponent.

Besides, this deck is not a deck anymore without ancestral recall, time walk and LOA. The deck really *needs* those cards.

I cannot understand how you can get 3 mana to pay for your rushing rivers. You should not have to use the werebears to cast them. In any case, you should have some ninja of the deep hours. And also mental notes

[The Chosen One]

The rushing rivers were kind of a last minute idea to throw in. So everyone knows, this deck has not been played against anyone yet... I am still in the overall development stage, and I am looking to make it better before I even build it... I might not keep the threshold aspect of the deck alive, thinking maybe -4 mongoose, -4 werebear, +4 basking rootwalla, +4 wild mongrel. Making the deck into a WTF+white deck does not seem like a bad idea. I was playing an unpowered u/g WTF deck that did well, but it lacked really good removal and solid plays that white has to offer(stp, meddling mage). I am trying to weigh either running chalice of the void\ umezawa's jitte over null rods. The jittes are amazing in the decks I have had them in, but rod shuts down so much. I will re-develop the list and repost on Monday most likely. Thanks for the ideas

[Nastaboi]

I have played the deck and won one piece of power with it, and done it without playing any power myself. Things have changed since then. This deck just cannot handle Gifts Ungiven decks. It doesn't matter how many StP:s you run, they will just go off with Yawgmoth's Will. 19 mana should be enough, cut Plains and one fetch and put in some cantrips (=Mental Notes). Think it as a gro deck. Stifles help to protect your lands against random Wastelands, and this deck's mana base just cannot be modified to stand Crucible. It is a calculated risk, sort off.

You should play couple of ninjas, they give you needed draw. Naturalize and Kataki could be considered depending on the meta. I personally hate Stifle, but maybe it has to stay. Rushing River might cost much, but I have also considered those just to evade Chalice, which hurts you badly.

It would be interested to hear how do you beat Gifts. Will Orim's Chants do the trick? What does your testing show?

If you are interested on WTF/w, from the following topic you will find Kowal's list I have had some success with. It is powerful and such, but it cannot beat Gifts either. It might be ever more questionable choice when facing the new Supression Field.
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=23160.109

[Imsomniac101]

I've been playing this deck for a few months now and will share a few words of wisdom.

Converting this deck to WTF/w is just bad as BS>WTF. The threshold guys are just plain superior to madness creatures as they require nothing to pump except for the fact that you need a full graveyard. This is where Mental Note comes in, it brings you halfway to threshold and isn't that bad of a cantrip either. Run 3.

Also Null Rod>Chalice at disrupting the opponents mana and also hits other commonly used cards (ie Aether Vial, Jitte, Mindslaver). Also because you can't play Chalice for 1.

Cut the Rushing Rivers.
Cut down to 19 mana sources. 21 is excessive. Now you have more space for disruption.
I would probably run this mana base (taking into consideration that you can't afford power):

3x Trops (I have run 2 before and never had any problems)
3x Tundras
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
2x Island

Also cut 1 Werebear as you dont want to draw too many.

As for your lack of power, the only card you can't replace is Ancestral. I could live without Time Walk and all the others but would not run the deck if it did not include Ancestral.
Gush is good. Run it. You can also use it in response to a Wasteland to save yourself an Island.

Library of Alexandria and Ninja are shit. Don't run them unless 70+% of your meta is control.

If you see a lot of Stax in your meta, maindeck 3x Annuls, they are golden.

On your sideboard:

Cut Ground Seals. You already beat up on decks focusing on the graveyard (sans YawgWill which Seals don't help anyway).
Not sure about the Orim's Chant. But I'm inclined to cut them.
Run 3x Chill. When you run up against Goblins you will NEED these.
If you see a lot of stax 3x Kataki is also good.
You can also run 3x Rootwater Thief and 2/3x Arcane Laboratory if you see lots of Control/Combo (A. Lab. is golden versus the hybrids)
Pithing Needle is also a good consideration for the Sideboard

One last note. You shouldn't play this deck if your meta consists of decks that play tons of basics (MUC, Goblins etc) as you can't reliably disrupt your opponent.
Good luck with the deck.

[Shikari]

Actually, I think that this deck is pretty good if you're running Black Lotus and Ancestral Recall. Also, the mana base is only shakey if you make it so.

[The Chosen One]

As was said earlier, the threshold creatures definitely shine due to the no extra care needed than having a full graveyard. Which of course, this deck can acheive really easily with all the counter/cantrips. The only thing I would be concerned about is getting overwhelmed with opponents creatures. Has anyone considered running jittes in this type of deck? I am not sure if they would fit in that well due to the mongoose not being able to carry one.... I would think FCG would be a problem for this deck(note:have not personally played against).

@Nastaboi: Why can't this beat gifts? Would adding certain cards/tech make it a better matchup?

[Methuselahn]

Mana-
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Plains
1 Island
(lack of power due to me playing with no proxies)

I'm not sure this is the optimal configuration here. I bet you could get away with 2 Tundras and 3 Tropicals, replacing them with basic lands (Islands).  You should probably figure out how many lands you need yourself,  but 21 sounds ok if you are without Moxes. You should keep one Plains in the deck.  If your area is not proxied, then I'm guessing there is a higher percentage of Wastelands than what most people reading decklists are used to.  Don't be a victim to random "Waste your Tundra, Tinker-Colossus" plays.

Regarding the Gifts Matchup.  The Gifts and Gifts-Oath matchup is actually in your favor, The Gifts opponent should know that the Colossus route is more difficult than Tendrils.  Don't be afraid to name Yawgmoth's Will with Meddling Mage.  Null Rods and Strips are your best friends here.  If they are running Oath alongside Gifts, then keep the Swords in because that is their A game.

Regarding FCG.  Good luck.

[doomhed]

As the main designer of the list that placed T8 @ waterbury, I have a few thing to tell you.

To be honest, these may seem in a haphazard order, but I am quite overtired right now.. . forgive me. (Starcity article Upcoming)

First off, you need the Savannah. there are way too many situations where you want both of your off-color mana sources in one shot. Also, the reason we opted for a basic plains and island and no basic forest is due to sideboarding issues. roughly 2/3 our SB was white. (that and Werebear is a green source.)

Second-
The reason this deck did so well is in the disruption. the deck has 10 Pitch counters. 4/3/3 Fow, daze, mis-d. this is not a control deck. it is not an aggro-control deck. it is Aggro-Prison. THIS IS NOT A GRO DECK. sorry for the anger, but this is why so few ppl win with this deck and archetypes like it. Mental note is total shit. dont even go near it. it stunk the place up awful the last time I caught a lacky playing with it.

Third-
This deck, properly played, goes 50/50 game 1 against gifts. game 2 varies depending on the gifts build, with belcher based builds being a little easier to stop. it really comes down to playskill. if you play the deck like a retard then you will lose. 

4th-
Dont even think oif going near jitte. it is a win-more card. null rod is a much bigger threat in the metagame than jitte. null rod is a prison part that CANNOT be cut. you are thinking with the wrong mindset when you add that card to an aggro-prison deck. think back to trinistax and you will have yer answer. would that deck ever play jitte? no. but it would play null rod under the right circumstances.

More later if there is interest

[Imsomniac101]

As the main designer of the list that placed T8 @ waterbury, I have a few thing to tell you.

To be honest, these may seem in a haphazard order, but I am quite overtired right now.. . forgive me. (Starcity article Upcoming)

First off, you need the Savannah. there are way too many situations where you want both of your off-color mana sources in one shot. Also, the reason we opted for a basic plains and island and no basic forest is due to sideboarding issues. roughly 2/3 our SB was white. (that and Werebear is a green source.)

Second-
The reason this deck did so well is in the disruption. the deck has 10 Pitch counters. 4/3/3 Fow, daze, mis-d. this is not a control deck. it is not an aggro-control deck. it is Aggro-Prison. THIS IS NOT A GRO DECK. sorry for the anger, but this is why so few ppl win with this deck and archetypes like it. Mental note is total shit. dont even go near it. it stunk the place up awful the last time I caught a lacky playing with it.

Third-
This deck, properly played, goes 50/50 game 1 against gifts. game 2 varies depending on the gifts build, with belcher based builds being a little easier to stop. it really comes down to playskill. if you play the deck like a retard then you will lose.

4th-
Dont even think oif going near jitte. it is a win-more card. null rod is a much bigger threat in the metagame than jitte. null rod is a prison part that CANNOT be cut. you are thinking with the wrong mindset when you add that card to an aggro-prison deck. think back to trinistax and you will have yer answer. would that deck ever play jitte? no. but it would play null rod under the right circumstances.

More later if there is interest

I'm not sure the Savannah is necessary. You will be wanting Blue mana to cantrip more often than not.
Mental Note is great because it cantrips and fills your grave at the same time. I cut Mental Note from my list a while back for more disruption. And for a while it was good. Then I re-added them to my list and realised how much I missed being able to attain threshold early on AND the ability to dig deeper into my deck. IMO you should run 3.

Agreed that Jitte is a win-more card. Null Rod is far better and the Jitte is also slow and mana intensive. Your threshold creatures plus your Swords to Plowshares should be able to take down any combination of creatures that your opponent might play.

Also MisD is only good when your Meddling Mages and Null Rods are big threats to your opponent.

On a sidenote, I've been playing with 3 Annuls maindecked and they have been godly against Oath and Stax, especially against Stax.

@doomhed:
If you could be so kind as to PM me the list that placed T8 at waterbury I would be very happy. Also, if you need any help writing the article I would be happy to oblige.

[Shikari]

Mental Note causes the deck to adapt more of a 'top deck' kinda play style. It causes you to lose certain key cards like Daze and Null Rod.

Is this deck really Aggro/Prison? I always thought it was Aggro/Control since there are so many control elements. Is it Aggro/Prison cause of the Meddling Mages and Mana Denial? I understand that soft lock here, but won't this deck be more successful as an Aggro/Control archtype due to its many controlish spells? The mana denial can be used as a support to this play tactic...

Umezawa's Jitte isn't really good as it clashes with Null Rod. Also, you need to spend mana to equip it, mana which is very important in the early few turns of the game. Your creatures are big after Threshold, and thus, Jitte isn't really effective. Using Jitte as a creature skill isn't effective either as you're a) Playing Swords to Plowshares b) Your creatures are big enough to do "2 for 1" or "3 for 1" trade offs. Also, you cna't equip on Nimble Mongoose.

Null Rod is clearly a key component in this deck. It helps enforces the mana denial aspect by restricting the usage of artifact mana eg: Moxes. This helps stops them from going broken and severely weaken's Yawgmoth's Win's power.

[the boogie man]

We all know that null rod is real good, but I think that the biggest discussion to be had hee is the mental note one.

has anyone really tested this? is the quick threshold at no card disadvantage worth it? or is that slot better filled with more threats/answers/whatever? could doomhed give us what he replaced them with? and what is the usual turn threshold hits?

[Imsomniac101]

I hate to pollute discussions with decklists but I want to show you that it is possible to fit in ample amounts of disruption whilst still playing Mental Note.

Try this list:
//NAME: BirdShit
        3 Werebear
        3 Nimble Mongoose
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Gush
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Time Walk
        3 Mental Note
        4 Brainstorm
        3 Annul
        3 Stifle
        3 Daze
        2 Misdirection
        4 Force of Will
        3 Swords to Plowshares
        3 Null Rod
        4 Meddling Mage
        2 Polluted Delta
        3 Flooded Strand
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Black Lotus
        3 Tundra
        3 Tropical Island
        1 Snow-Covered Island
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
SB:  3 Kataki, War's Wage
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Rushing River
SB:  3 Chill
SB:  1 Annul
SB:  3 Rootwater Thief
SB:  1 Misdirection
SB:  2 Arcane Laboratory


Its got 61 cards, so sue me. I maindecked 3x Annuls because Stax is all over the show, not to mention Oath. Also, there are only 3x Swords to Plowshares as you only ever need the 4th one against something like FCG.

Chill is also there as FCG is definitely your toughest match.

Kataki in the board is godly vs Stax.

I'm not sure about the Rootwater Thieves though as I have yet to side them in against another deck other than MUC. Their also mana intensive so I might cut them.

2x Arcane Laboratory in the SB are there not for the combo match-up but against combo-control. It prevents them from ever resolving Tinker if your holding a Plow.

You can replace the 3rd Tropical Island with a basic Island or a fetch as Werebears act as a green mana source.

I have yet to test Pithing Needle in the SB, but they look good.

If you cannot afford the Lotus you can replace it with an Island/fetch of your choice.

[the boogie man]

what about ninja of the deep? is the tempo loss too much? or do they not do enough?

[Imsomniac101]

Ninja is too slow. And you don't really want to fill your deck up with creatures instead of disruption. Plus Ninja is extremely shitty vs other aggro decks. I find that a creature base of:
3x Nimble Mongoose
3x Werebear
4x Meddling Mage

works fine. Although you can add in a 4th Mongoose if there are plenty of aggro decks in your meta.

[policehq]

With Wastelands and Fetches, would Life from the Loam contribute both to the prison-style and the threshold-requirement of the deck sufficiently? Or is it too slow?

[Imsomniac101]

Sorcery = bad.
And you don't really want to take away your draw for the turn.

in short Crucible>Life from the Loam.

[doomhed]

Try this list:
//NAME: BirdShit
        3 Werebear
        3 Nimble Mongoose
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Gush
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Time Walk
        3 Mental Note
        4 Brainstorm
        3 Annul
        3 Stifle
        3 Daze
        2 Misdirection
        4 Force of Will
        3 Swords to Plowshares
        3 Null Rod
        4 Meddling Mage
        2 Polluted Delta
        3 Flooded Strand
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Black Lotus
        3 Tundra
        3 Tropical Island
        1 Snow-Covered Island
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine

First off, you need to cut down to 60 cards. there goes 1 mental note. and you are running only 3 of each werebear and nimble. Dont make me hit you in the nose with a rolled up newspaper. you appear to have added a mystical, cut a mis-d, added 3 annul, cut a swords, and cut a plains. and you cut savannah. bad moves.

Swords are one of your best threats in this DSC-filled metagame. it is insane against dragon, stops welders, removes platinum angel/karn, and trumps other attempts at winning with creatures.

you need all 12 creatures. this deck has been in heavy rotation and development within my team since it placed at starcity (December 2004? January '05? I forget). we have tried cutting to 11, 10, 9, even 8 creatures. there was never a time that less than the maximum of all 3 creatures was better than the maximum amount. if they would let me run 5 werebear I would. seriously.

On mental notes uselessness- your deck will get threshold on its own without needing to waste a card and the tempo of tapping a land to throw 3 cards in the yard. I would rther lay a permenant threat. this deck routniely gets very early threshold.

Trust me on the savannah. I know it is not blue. I know it seems insane. but it fucking works. I cannot count the number of times I have gone first turn sapphire, pop heath for savannah, meddling mage. and then either drop another mage and a nimble, or a nimble and a brainstorm. needing all 3 colors in the first 2 turns happens alot. savannah makes alot of hand that woulda been mulligans into great hands. I was unemployed for 5 months during this decks design, so I have WAY too much playtesting experience with this deck. if you run savannah, cut the deltas for 1 flooded strand and 1 Heath.

mystical is not something this deck wants to draw. I would rather have the extra mis-d. the main reason I keep misdirection main is to help stop artifact hate against null rod and bounce against our dudes.

For anyone who doubts the ability of the deck without mental note - Brian Rozzero of Team batman just placed T8 @ Grand-Prix Samite with the deck TODAY, losing only 1 game before losing in a close 3 to Brassman in the T8. Also, the only game he lost was to a TEAMMATE playing U/G madness.

Oh, and so you know, the deck is no longer named Birdshit.
It is named GUANO, AkA BatShit.

VIVA EL GUANO! 

[Imsomniac101]

First off, you need to cut down to 60 cards. there goes 1 mental note. and you are running only 3 of each werebear and nimble. Dont make me hit you in the nose with a rolled up newspaper. you appear to have added a mystical, cut a mis-d, added 3 annul, cut a swords, and cut a plains. and you cut savannah. bad moves.

I don't need to cut down to 60 cards. The 61st card changes the chances of drawing certain cards by an insignificant percentage (so much so that it is negligible). Also later on in my post I did state that running a 4th Mongoose was optional.

Mystical Tutor acts as your 4th copy of Swords to Plowshares, doubles as Gush and Ancestral and your 5th copy of Brainstorm!!! IMO you can't cut this, it's too flexible.

Annul is house as its basically a hard counter vs Oath and Stax which makes up nearly 50% of the field.

Swords are one of your best threats in this DSC-filled metagame. it is insane against dragon, stops welders, removes platinum angel/karn, and trumps other attempts at winning with creatures.

Also lots of time playing this deck showed me that the 4th Plow was unnecessary. Those decks only play 1 each of said creatures, sans Welder/Dragon. 3 is plenty and for Dragon you have Stifle as well which is more than enough. When I ran 4 Plows, the 2nd Plow in your hand would often end up dead.

you need all 12 creatures. this deck has been in heavy rotation and development within my team since it placed at starcity (December 2004? January '05? I forget). we have tried cutting to 11, 10, 9, even 8 creatures. there was never a time that less than the maximum of all 3 creatures was better than the maximum amount. if they would let me run 5 werebear I would. seriously.

Having played this deck since it made 3rd at Syracuse, showed me that Lam Phan must have tested the hell out of this deck cuz almost everything in the original list was optimal, aside from the number of mana sources and the random 1 of's. The 4th Werebear is excessive as you often end up with 2 Werebears in your hand, which won't become 4/4's till turn 4 anyway. So why not run more disruption in the first place, which are actually useful in the early game.

On mental notes uselessness- your deck will get threshold on its own without needing to waste a card and the tempo of tapping a land to throw 3 cards in the yard. I would rther lay a permenant threat. this deck routniely gets very early threshold.

Yes, the deck will inevitably gain Threshold. However, I find that Mental Note speeds this up by a full 2 turns. With Mental Note you can have Threshold by Turn 3/4 with a Werebear/Mongoose if you so wished.

Trust me on the savannah. I know it is not blue. I know it seems insane. but it fucking works. I cannot count the number of times I have gone first turn sapphire, pop heath for savannah, meddling mage. and then either drop another mage and a nimble, or a nimble and a brainstorm. needing all 3 colors in the first 2 turns happens alot. savannah makes alot of hand that woulda been mulligans into great hands. I was unemployed for 5 months during this decks design, so I have WAY too much playtesting experience with this deck. if you run savannah, cut the deltas for 1 flooded strand and 1 Heath.

That's because you run a full playset of both Green creatures; and I run more blue spells (guessing from what you've said, as I have yet to see a list from you, hint hint ). And you forget that Werebear is a Green source of mana (this is why Werebear>Wild Mongrel).

mystical is not something this deck wants to draw. I would rather have the extra mis-d. the main reason I keep misdirection main is to help stop artifact hate against null rod and bounce against our dudes.

i have already stated the case for Mystical. However I do value the 3rd MisD greatly, that's why it's in the SB when I require it. Also, MisD is shit vs Stax which is quite a large portion of the field.

For anyone who doubts the ability of the deck without mental note - Brian Rozzero of Team batman just placed T8 @ Grand-Prix Samite with the deck TODAY, losing only 1 game before losing in a close 3 to Brassman in the T8. Also, the only game he lost was to a TEAMMATE playing U/G madness.

Great to see people doing well with BS (finally!). However without a decklist I can't really see where our lists differ (due to playstyle or whatever). Please PM me with a list. Also BS shouldn't lose to Madness as it is far more consistent (if you were running Mental Note you definitely would not have lost the match).

Oh, and so you know, the deck is no longer named Birdshit.
It is named GUANO, AkA BatShit.

LOL. It's definitely easier to say.

Imsomniac out.
(Damn that was a long post!)

[doomhed]

Brian Didnt lose tha MATCH to U/G, he lost A GAME. big difference. (Mulliganning 2 no-land hands in a row and then seeing a turn 1 mongrel with force backup and a turn 2 arrogant wurm kinda sux.)

Running anything more than 60 cards is pure Jackassery. even if you try to justify the last card you are wrong. there is never any justification for running anything more than the minimum. arguements like this are the reason no one has placed with the deck before recently other then lam phan. everyone wants to argue about stupid shit instead of putting thier beliefs aside and looking at what the deck really needs.

But this is not about card counts, this is about the deck.
the list for birdshit is in the waterbury T8 thread. that was our base list. we have made some minor changes, but that is the list we start all adjustments from. But since no one else cared to look at the first SUCCESSFUL list since phan lam's before posting cockneyed versions of his old list, here is the list-

//NAME: BirdShit
        4 Werebear
        4 Nimble Mongoose
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Gush
        1 Time Walk
        4 Brainstorm
        3 Stifle
        3 Daze
        3 Misdirection
        4 Force of Will
        4 Swords to Plowshares
        3 Null Rod
        4 Meddling Mage
        1 Windswept Heath
        4 Flooded Strand
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Black Lotus
        3 Tundra
        3 Tropical Island
        1 Savannah
        1 Plains
        1 Snow-Covered Island
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine

SB: 3 Orim's Chant 
SB: 3 annul
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Cursed Totem
SB: 3 Sacred Ground (would be something else)

Phan Lam's List was built to combat Trinistax and control slaver. against either deck, you wouldnt need as many fast beaters. but gifts has more counters than slaver. and more card drawing. you need more threats to get one to resolve, preferably before mana drain hits the scene.

Yes, this deck is Aggro/Prison. when you try to play dedicated control, you lose the game because you mis-assigned your role. you should just be dropping lock parts and only using counterspells to ensure they resolve. stifle is used mainly as a strip effect, but has more uses now than ever. annul is dead in your worst matchup, gifts. annul is SB bacause other cards are better against the general metagame. 

I am done with this thread. Nothing more will be posted till my article gets sent to starcitygames.com. working on finishing it up this week.

[Imsomniac101]

Maybe a discussion about the optimum build for BS should be started in the Main Forum.

Out of interest here is the list that made T8 in Samite's tourney:
5-8 Brian Rozzero
4 fow
4 b-storm
4 stp
3 null rod
3 annul
3 daze
3 orims chant
4 meddling mage
4 werebear
4 nimble mongoose
1 ancestral
1 time walk
1 gush
1 mox sapphire
1 mox pearl
1 black lotus
4 strand
1 heath
1 strip
4 waste
3 tundra
3 trop
1 island
1 savannah
0 MisD

SB:
3 rushing river
3 stifle
3 arcane lab
3 e-fulx
3 beb

Changes of interest are in Bold.

[doomhed]

the MD annuls were crap all day from what I was told by Brian. he as since put stifle back in the main. oirim's chant was a metagame call for the day that proved quite good. Labs sucked, rushing river sucked. mox pearl is becoming a plains again.

this deck really wants cards with a CC of 2 or less.
a 4th null rod will probably fit itsself into the main soon.

[Imsomniac101]

Dude calm down. The MD Annuls were probably crap because he did not see any Stax or Oath. And you shouldn't need the Plains at all, 21 mana sources are definitely too many. Agreed that Stifle should never have been cut from the MD, however you still have not explained the lack of MisD in Brian's list; a bit hypocritic seeing as how you criticized my lack of a 3rd MisD.

How can the 61st card cause you to lose so badly?? Seriously, look at the math of it. It only changes the percentages by a negligible amount. I have the figures lying around somewhere, which I will have to find.

I am however, interested as to how Orim's Chant worked out for Brian. What matchups did they help? What kind of plays would you make with them?

[doomhed]

21 sources is not too many when you run 5 fetches and run into wastelands all day long.

in a larger tourney, you need the ability to counter first turn more than you need the Duressing power or chant. yo be honest, most times we use Mis-d to protect dropping a null rod in the first 2 turns of the game.

Also, on mystical- Flexibility at the cost of card advantage is not what this deck needs. the deck need consistancy. Similar thing with mental note, you cannot afford to have cards that are completely dead unless you have a creature out. Heck, misdirection is more useful than mental note. Does mental note stop ancestral recall? Does it force back? no.

We are currently testing replacing the misidrections, but they are godly. the only card close to in the running for replacing them is Orim's chant.   

61 cards is not an option.I will tell you what the person who taught me to play many yrs ago told me (substituting 60 for 40)- there will always be a time when you draw the 61st card and it will come back to bite you on the ass. there is always a card to cut to bring the deck to 60. when you let yourself go over 60 cards, it is just a hop, skip and jump to 70. when you hold onto excess cards in your deck, you will always Remember a situation where the "extra" cards were worth it. you are rationalizing a bad idea by saying "Who does it hurt?". the truth is, it might only effect 1/15 games, but I would rather not have that 1 game be in the last round in contention for T8.

You dont need annul in the main to combat stax or oath. you do fine against oath without maindeck hate.  Also, 2 copies of Kataki will be in the SB from now on.

Annul is insanely dead against gifts. so dead you always end up pitching it to force or Misidrection (Ever misdirected a Recoup? so funnay).

I just wished instead of talking theory you would take it to a power tourney and see how great mental note is. it is terrible. there is also no reason to run mental note if you only run 6 threshold creatures.

[Imsomniac101]

21 sources is not too many when you run 5 fetches and run into wastelands all day long.

21 mana sources dilutes the deck far too much. The reason Lam Phan ran only 17 mana sources is so that he could fit in MORE disruption. Aggro decks hate to draw extra lands when they are unnecessary, especially this deck.

Between fetches, Stifle and Werebear you should be able to outplay Wasteland all day long.

in a larger tourney, you need the ability to counter first turn more than you need the Duressing power or chant. yo be honest, most times we use Mis-d to protect dropping a null rod in the first 2 turns of the game.

I'm not sure what card you are referring to here. If you are referring to MisD then I would have to point out that your teammate Brian ran 0x MisD, while I run 2.

Also, on mystical- Flexibility at the cost of card advantage is not what this deck needs. the deck need consistancy. Similar thing with mental note, you cannot afford to have cards that are completely dead unless you have a creature out. Heck, misdirection is more useful than mental note. Does mental note stop ancestral recall? Does it force back? no.

Take a closer look. Mystical offers greater consistancy than just replacing it with a 4th copy of whatever Instant/Sorcery.

Mental Note is not dead when you don't have a creature; it CANTRIPS.

61 cards is not an option.I will tell you what the person who taught me to play many yrs ago told me (substituting 60 for 40)- there will always be a time when you draw the 61st card and it will come back to bite you on the ass. there is always a card to cut to bring the deck to 60. when you let yourself go over 60 cards, it is just a hop, skip and jump to 70. when you hold onto excess cards in your deck, you will always Remember a situation where the "extra" cards were worth it. you are rationalizing a bad idea by saying "Who does it hurt?". the truth is, it might only effect 1/15 games, but I would rather not have that 1 game be in the last round in contention for T8.

The number is far smaller than 1/15. I cannot remember a time where having the 61st card gave me a game loss.

You dont need annul in the main to combat stax or oath. you do fine against oath without maindeck hate.  Also, 2 copies of Kataki will be in the SB from now on.

Annul is insanely dead against gifts. so dead you always end up pitching it to force or Misidrection (Ever misdirected a Recoup? so funnay).

Ever had an opponent go Land, Mox, Oath---> go? The Oath player will almost always have a back up piece of disruption to go with that play, be it Duress, Force, MisD. And this happens alot. If you are not prepared for this, you will lose to Oath, badly.

Also, 2 copies of Kataki in the board are not enough vs Stax. Crucible will own your ass good without Annul. And Stax builds are now running 3x Crucible MD.

Annul is not dead vs gifts. Countering a Mox or a piece of acceleration is not very flashy, but it is subtly powerful; kinda like Stifle. I especially like to Annul Mox Sapphire, Mox Jet, Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Black Lotus. And if they use a counter on it, they will have one less counter to protect their spells with.

I just wished instead of talking theory you would take it to a power tourney and see how great mental note is. it is terrible. there is also no reason to run mental note if you only run 6 threshold creatures.

i am not talking theory. I have played this deck ever since Lam Phan revealed it to the Vintage community. However, I have never taken it to a power tourney, and it is unlikely that I will ever be able to. Seriously, I played this deck for several months without Mental Note and it was terrible. The few extra turns that it took for my creatures to attain threshold often ended up killing me.

I am looking at adding the 4th Mongoose to the deck. However there should be no reason to run the 4th Werebear as it will almost always be dead for a few turns, unless you were running Mental Note

I am still curious as to what you used the Orim's Chants for.

I will be having my exams in the next few weeks and will probably not post on TMD till they are over. After that you may PM me if you wish to have a few games over MWS or Apprentice.

[Nastaboi]

Mental Note does cantrip, which allows you to find your precious creature. But the fact that it cantrips allows us to run less lands, thus not cutting disruption but lands. And cantrips allow you to find more disruption.

I think mystical is bad for this deck. Card disadvantage is just what you don't want. You'd better off running four-ofs and more draw.

I am testing two Shadow of Doubts in addition to the standard disruption. I have not much time to test though, so I cannot really say anything yet. Something worth considering, you are not going to tap out every turn after the first couple. Plain Counterspell is another thing I have considered but not tested.

And oh, this don't lose to Gifts every game, just too often for my tastes. Maybe I just cannot play, except I won my first piece of power with the deck.

[The Chosen One]

Maybe I am missing something, how does this deck play out as aggro/prison? Also, after all of these comments, I realize that without power(especially recall/walk/mox/lotus) this deck isn't looking to be all that great, I have tried to sub them out, but I have not found anything yet to make the deck run as smoothly as I would like... I guess my best bet would be only to play it in a proxied environment.

[Meanee]

A small note on this whole mental note or not thing. I have in my build 3 open slots for draw/cantrips/counter or other disruption. Right now I am playtesting with 3 predict in the spot. It is godly with brainstorm - if your opponent plays a mystical tutor or another "put card on top" tutor it is much fun. BUT - and this is a big BUT - it costs 2 mana! That is a lot (like in the double of mental note).
I just wanted to reveal my exclusive tech with you and then learn if anyone else have ever tried out predict?

- meanee

[the boogie man]

The thinf is that this competes with mage, werebear, null rod, and your other 2cc stuff. mental note only takes 1. also, this only does 2/3 for threshold what mn does.