Wild Zombies

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Actually, now that I think about it more, what this deck really needs is something more against combo. Fast combo can be a pain in the ass... Maybe in place of the REBs should be Root Mazes...


What do you think?

[Brutha]

I think I would try to put 3 Null Road in the Sideboard. It is better than Root Mazes gainst Combo. Also Nul Road + Wasteland Recursion is tech. It works also exellent against Gifts.

[meatloaf161]

I am new to the mana drain and to vintage in some respects but I built a modified version of the wild zombies deck and I love it. I noticed that both anger and withered wretch were good main decked something i didnt see in either the posted decks what do you think?

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I noticed that both anger and withered wretch were good main decked something i didnt see in either the posted decks what do you think?

Woah man didja read any of my report? I advocated Anger and talked about how amazing it was. I even ran Entomb as a way to find it/ other useful stuff...

[forests failed you]

I witnessed this beating first hand.  It was pretty savage.

Anger should definately be in the deck.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Demars! Congrats on the Star City finish! And those bastards said Slaver was dead... guess they just haven't met "the man" 


Anyways, I've been testing something a little different in this deck- Dark Confidant. I know, it might seem scary, but this guy is freaking amazing. You have no idea how awesome it is being able to "draw" for the turn AND dredge! I'd definitely test him out for yourself and get back to me on whatcha thought...

[forests failed you]

Well, Confidant is far and away the best card in Standard.

It is among the best cards in exteneded.

Clearly, it is a viable card in Vintage.

It seems like it would be a nice fit, not to mention that it allows you to dredge and draw cards all the same, while getting in there for two every turn.

I also like it because it seems like it would dodge a lot of the hate, especially after board.  Cards like Darkblast and Lava Dart are not generally good against your deck since your guys have two toughness asses.

He also beats down.

Have you tested it?  If so, how do you like it?  I can imagine it finding a nice home in this deck as a two or three of.

BTW:  What drawback?  20 life is way too many.

[ReAnimator]

Sorry to everyone for not posting for a while but this time of year is bad for testing playing if you're in school and sick =(


Dark 'Bob' Confidant looks to be really really good in here, I won't be surprised at all if your testing backs this up.

What are you cutting for him and how many do you run?

is anyone else sort of unhappy with the red in here?
Death spark and to a lesser extent anger are the only maindeckable cards.
 i have cut down the sideboarded red cards to a point where they could be easily replaced.
The red lands always sort of pissed me off.

I still don't really like anger in here that much for the reasons i already stated, but I can understand people wanting him in here, it mostly matters vs oath and is sort of inconsiquential vs pretty much everything else.

Speaking of Oath, this is pretty bad for the Zombies, has any one else found anything to help out vs this matchup? I think if it is a problem in your area adding some Goblin Bombardments or Spawning pits would solve the match (esp if you have angers in already) The one up side is that they are very vulnerable to hand and land destruction, the down side is they can just rip off the top. I have found they board in Needles as well which is bad for the sideboared Pits and Bombardments 

I was able to test a very tiny bit a couple of weeks ago and i found that Mox Diamond was acctually worse than Mox Ruby in here. It sort of surprised me but there were quite a few occasions where the diamond was strictly worse.

I'm also pretty sure that Seeds of Innocence is better than RnR in the board.

What do people think about Pithing Needle vs. Null rod? i like the needle a lot but there is quite a bit to be said for null rod too.

When I was at the OVC I was talking to Razor (creator of O stompy) and he thought this deck was really cool and similar, he said he was going to play around with it and see what he comes up with, He then traded for a playset of Loams from me  I'll let you all know if he comes up with anything amazing.

-Andrew

[meatloaf161]

to almighty:

I was just saying that both lists didnt include both withered and anger not one or the other. I read your report and thats whee I got the idea to put anger in. He is amazing.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I've been thinking more and more about Null Rod, if only as an anti Combo card. I love Needles, though. I'm not sure how I feel about this.

I actually dropped Death Spark from my build for the moment. I added one Dark Blast and the fourth Duress for now. Why Darkblast? Well, we still need a MD way to deal with Welder... and since I run Entomb in addition to my other tutors, it isn't bad as a one of.

Without Red, you lose your best anti Colossus weapon/ one of the best Artifact hosers around- Artifact Mutation. Seeds of Innocence is so-so to me... I've never really cared for it, even way back in my R/G Beats days. I may give it a testing, but I've never really liked it. What is your new strategy against Colossus?

What did the Confidants replace, you ask? Heh, you're all going to think I am INSANE for this (I suspect the creator does as well), but I actually replaced the 4 WILD MONGRELS! WOAH! Why, you ask? Well, I found hands that had all the aspects of good except no kind of card advantage engine... There would be a Wild Mongrel, but I would have to mulligan because I had nothing. I began to think what life would be like if those Mongrels were Confidants... and suddenly the hands were keepable! You may all think I'm crazy, but I'm in love with the Confidant. Card advantage build in a very managable shell that allows me to Dredge AND "draw" for the turn... whew. At the very worst, he can attack then suck up a Cabal Therapy if you're scared of the "drawback". Ofcourse, I'm taking this whole idea in a very aggressive way... I want an Anger, a Life, an Infestation, and I want them now. 

As for Withered Wretch, honestly he just doesn't accomplish anything for the deck itself. He's hate, thats for sure, but on his own he does nothing... If that makes sense.

[Rapalaman1]

@ Confident inclusion:
It seems to be a great replacement for the so-so Mongrels.

And as for the anti-combo sideboard cards, Null Rod is good, but it stil poses the same problem that needle does, it's an artifact. All combo decks these days, storm-based tendrils combo that is, are all packing rebuild and hurkylls to deal with all the artifacts that stop them from beating everthing in the field.

I would still lean more towards Root Maze.

[yespuhyren]

Andrew, I've been testing loam in my uba stax build.  It can really help mill the crap out of you with bazaars, and then bring your lands back for you.  If your having trouble with Oath, I would consider running Mazes in the SB.  Its a great utility land thats not so hard to fetch with loam.  Also, why not just cut the 3 MD death sparks for

1 crop rotation
1 fastbond

and if you can fit in

1-2 crucible
0-1 zuran orb (might as well go for the infinte kill if you are also running fastbond + crucible.  1 slot isn't that bad.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

That's absolutely pointless. Life IS Crucible for this deck. I mean your trying to squeeze some alternate combo into this deck that just wastes space... This is an aggro deck. Fastbond is even pushing it in my opinion. If you are having fun with Life in Uba Stax, then make a topic called "Uba Loam" and talk about it there. We're talking about a deck involving Zombie Infestations.

I'm in a bind. I have a tourney this Sunday, but I'm not sure as to do Null Rod or Root Maze as my combo hate. Null Rod is definite, but Root Maze isn't an artifact and usually always comes down first turn. What to do?

[nataz]

Hey guys,

first off I want to say this is a very interesting looking deck. I think we are just starting to scratch the surface with the dredge mech., and it's nice to see a deck with dredge in it getting some play.

I'll admit that I have almost zero playtesting with this particular deck, so please take my comments with a grain of salt.

I was wondering if anyone has been keeping up with the new extended deck "Ich Bedoel", first designed by F.Rizzo, and later played and covered in an article by Flores.

for reference

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Chrome Mox

Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Ichorid
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Psychatog
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Wonder

Enchantments
4 Zombie Infestation
 

Instants
1 Ray Of Revelation

Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Deep Analysis
1 Life From The Loam

Basic Lands
2 Swamp

Lands
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Polluted Delta
2 Riftstone Portal
4 Watery Grave
 Sideboard:

4 Oxidize
2 Ray Of Revelation
3 Smother
4 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Riftstone Portal

Admittedly the deck is quite different, but there are some very similar pieces, and I wonder if we can draw some inspiration from it.

Here are my suggested changes to your list with Mike's list in mind

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire

Creatures
4 Dark C
3 Ichorid
4 Tog
1 wonder

Enchantments
4 Zombie Infestation
 Â 

Instants
2 Death Spark
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Recall

Legendary Creatures
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Life From The Loam
1 TW
Basic Lands
1 Forest
2 Swamp

Lands
2 Underground Sea
1 cephelid coliseum
4 Bayou
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad
3 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland




1) the addition of blue over red.

Red seems like it is a less and less important part of the deck. Most people seem not to like anger, and you can switch out Rack and Ruin in the SB for on color hate like oxidize. With loam I think three colors is hardly ambitious, and I think blue may be an obvious inclusion. You get to add TW, Recall, Coliseum, and wonder.

retooled creature base

2) Tog
As a replacement for the wonder dog. Costs 1 more, but gets much bigger when going all in with a wonder alpha strike.

3) Ichorid
Its a free pitch to tog, ZI, and Bazaar, and they can come out of no where in multiples if you dredge lots of cards in one turn. You never really should have to hardcast it I with the added addition of Tog, and possibly my next suggestion.

4) Dark C
You are black, have a low CC curve, and you can sack him at any time with a cabal therp. I think he warrents at least a try. It also refills your hand now to help make up for bazaar and ZI, and since I retooled the creature/spell  base at the expense of recurring cards.  

Other possible ideas would be Darkblast in place of deathspark, the addition of Deep A for more draw and the addition of riftstone portal for the oath match up (so you can play ray of rev in the SB).

I also think Null rod should probably find a place in the deck.

so, what do you guys think. Is there anything there that shows any promise?

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Hmm... I like the idea, but I don't think you have enough creatures to really abuse Ichorid like his deck does. He can recur it damn near every turn while you won't be able to do such a thing. I think if you wanted to run Ichorid, you'd need some of those little Black creatures... Otherwise you're limited in your ability to return him.

[nataz]

It's true, mike has 16 additional black creatures for Ich, where as my list only has have at 8. I tried to negate that a little with 1 less Ichy, but that may not be enough. I could see going down to 2 Ich, to possibly help make room for null rod however. 

Possibly cut the 2 death spark to make room for the Null Rod's, and then use the last death spark to fit in Darkblast or a Deep A?

I just feel like the deck has too many recursion cards that aren't really that good, just because they can come back to hand. I think I'd rather just re-fill my hand rather then play lots of cards like K horror and Deathspark. That being said, I the squees' are in a different class all by themselves, because they non-conditional discard targets.

Another question I have, how well does Sickening Dreams work out for you? I feel like I'd almost rather just have another duress + something else. 

And as for the anti-combo sideboard cards, Null Rod is good, but it stil poses the same problem that needle does, it's an artifact. All combo decks these days, storm-based tendrils combo that is, are all packing rebuild and hurkylls to deal with all the artifacts that stop them from beating everthing in the field.

It's true, many storm wins do involve rebuild, but the fastest of deck do not generaly run rebuild, if anything its chain, and then it doesn't matter if it is an artifact or not. Those decks that are running rebuild tend to be slower then a pure combo deck, and if you plant a null rod, with a combonation of wastes + LFTL and 7-8 discard spells, you should be a a decent position to win.

[oyzar]

I built a similar deck. Only my version have ashen ghouls and nethershadows instead of ichorids. I also play both gravetroll and stinkweed imp for dredge. The great thing about the bazzar/dredge engine is that you dont need to mock around with creatures like putrid imp/mongrel/tog.

// Lands
    4  Polluted Delta
    2  Swamp
    3  Underground Sea
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    3  Bayou
    1  Strip Mine
    2  Wasteland
// Creatures
    4  Ashen Ghoul
    1  Wonder
    4  Nether Shadow
    3  Squee, Goblin Nabob
    4  Golgari Grave-Troll
    4  Stinkweed Imp
// Spells
    1  Imperial Seal
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Time Walk
    1  Crop Rotation
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    3  Zombie Infestation
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Mox Pearl
    3  Life from the Loam
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    4  Cabal Therapy


this deck can win from playing as few as 0 spells but obviusly you want to play as many therapies you as as to disrupt the opponent, against stax though you dont even need to play spells, you get free permanents every upkeep and that matchup is basically a bye, not even uba mask do anything as dredge is a replacement effect. Nether shadow might seem small and dont do enough but at the speed you rip through your deck the only thing that matter is that they are free and they often deal more dmg than the ashen ghouls. There probably should be some darkblasts main, as a way to deal with problem creatures though deathspark would not be so good as it would often end up not returning with a build like this here it is more about just dumping every card into the yard and get something back instead of recuring chosen cards. quantety over qualety to say it that way. Null rod might be the right call for a deck like this as this dont realy abuse the fast mana the way some other decks can, on the other hand you end up casting like 1-2 spells a game not including flashback and that means you dont realy got many draws to draw the relevant cards. Infestation are needed cause we can only play 4 bazzar + tutors and sometimes they are good vs creatures.

[ReAnimator]

I really like the Rizzo Deck in ext. and it can do stupid things like win on turn 3 with tog. I used to play something really similar in block way back (obv without dredge).

The one problem is, you can get really terrible opening hands and the deck runs very little disruption. If you built it like that for T1 It would sort of be like affinity or slow combo. a sort of all or nothing approach. It would be able to race oath better though. The deck would lose all semblance of aggro control and turn into aggro combo.
you also would not be able to run things like Confidant or rely on loam to win the long games.

There is a guy in my area who tried WZombies with tog and blue and he made a top 8, I don't have an exact list but apparently there were a few mistakes with the list (circular logic)
if this deck was to go in the tog direction it should probably go the Rizzo route more so than an aggro control route.

As it is now the deck is a very disruptive aggro control deck that has a sound early and lategame strategy I really don't think the blue would have that.

That being said it might be fun to try and port the rizzo deck here or as a separate exercise because we all love turn 3 wins!  Or to try out Oyzar's idea of nether's and ashens. (though why you aren't running either mongrel or tog is sort of baffling )

@ Nataz
i think you sort of missed the theme of the rizzo deck and are trying to hard for aggro/control as opposed to pure aggro like it is in extended. You really have to forget about the loam engine and just go for the throat if you are going in that direction, your build seems split between the two decks where it should probably go for one or the other.

Off the top rizzo in T1 V1.0
4 Tog
4 P imp <---- these are really important and even bazaar does not make up for them not being there. They are a 2/2 flyer for B. not even fish can step to that!
4 ZI
4 Mesmeric
3 Stink

4 Troll
2 Loam
4 Ichorid
3 D A
4 Therapy
1 Walk
1 Ancestral
1 D T 
4 Bazaar
I have no idea what the land base would look like at all. I have no idea how many moxes ect you could squeeze in here ect.
It is essentially untouched from how it looks like in ext except you get Bazaar instead of Coliseum and some restricted cards. I cant really see what t1 card pool really adds to this deck it is pretty streamlined engine without much wiggle room.

At this point though you have to ask yourself why you are running this over real combo or affinity? (though it is probably better than FCG just for the fact that your gold fish is the same but you get to run card drawing and disruption {please don't flame if this is totally wrong and you love FCG its just how i see it i have obv. done no testing})

I'm going to be out of town for 3 weeks so don't expect to many timely replies from me, though i will do what i can.

-A

stuff

Thanks for the suggestion Jason but your ideas really don't work out in a deck like this, it is so different in strategies and cards from Uba that very little would translate.
Also what if i dredge a 1 of combo piece? i have no way of getting it back.

[P_f]

I'll chip in my few games I've played with variations of this deck just to add to our pool of knowledge whether for good or for bad.

Heck, what do I care? I'm going to bash a bit on the suggestions to port some extended cards over to vintage b/c they are truly awful.
Red:
Anger:
As said before, its not necessary and anger only helps to race against oath and gifts, it doesn't do anything else otherwise. While this IS significant, anger probably isn't the best answer in dealing with combo-control. Null Rod comes to mind as something better than Anger. Rootmaze is up for debate but its only usually better than rod against dragon.

Death Spark:
I only see 1 things going for this puppy. Killing welders. With 7 or 8 free recursion AND 3 life of the loam, I really don't think death spark is needed for added recursion. There's definitely something better at killing welders. How about lands that act as removal? B-ring and Cabal Pit? This deck isn't going to win by dealing damage and ring requires another red sources so that leaves the pit. Cabal pit is essentially a darkblast without having to waste a damn slot for it. Now, if we free up slots from Death Spark, they can go into null rods, improving our match against combo-control decks.

I don't think any other red cards are really necessary at the price of janking up our manabase. Rack and Ruin has been covered above. Is Reb really necessary?

Blue:
Restricted Spells:
Out of all the restricted spells, I can only see Time Walk being the best of it. Ancestral may be cheap and draws you 3 cards, but if you dedicate these restricted draw spells into cards that strengthen you bazaar engine, I think it might be better.

The only thing I see worthy is psychatog. Even then, it doesn't come close to a 2 mana clock (mongrel?). Psychatog is mana-intensive. Period. Your best turn 1 play is bazaar. This means tog isn't coming down until turn 4, best turn 3. Thats just AWFUL.

Other Cards:
Stinkweed/Grave-Troll:
Here is where I shook my head. Go and test them for yourself. Pure garbage. When I see these cards, I see a crap rare and a decent limited common. I don't think these guys have a spot in Vintage. I was first compelled by the dredge-rific potential they have, but after a few games, they quickly prove themselves crappy because dredging is all they CAN do.

AshenGhoul/NetherShadow/Ichorid: Again, what is with these awful suggestions? I don't claim I'm good at this archetype but this is plain awful. They slow down your clock! Shadow is only a 1/1 garbage. Ichorid requires black dudes, ur not exactly high on black dudes here. And AshenGhoul requires much more set up to get him in play. Why don't you just cast a mongrel or infestation and just start beating instead of trying to do fancy stuff to lose you the game?

Dark Confidant: Okay, enough bashing, going to cards that might be playable.This is actually quite playable but do you really want to take out mongrel for it? Mongrel is such a house, randomly beating for 5 every turn!  Its obvious that its a good card and if your deck gets shut off by pithing needles, this can still provide gas for you. However, The only thing that truly shuts down bazaar is needle and grave-hate, the latter the meta-game hasn't really caught onto still. Is it better to solidify your bazaar engine with something like engineered explosive, which is an answer the deck can definitely use, or does it need more card drawing, as if it doesn't have enough already?

Riftstone Portal: I can see this extended tech being good as it helps your rays, which are certainly going nowhere but the sideboard. It can also allow some white technologies to be boarded in. Making bazaar produce mana can also be relevant. The only problem is janking up the manabase.

Tutors: The current list only runs 2 tutor. I don't see this being enough. Squees and Horrors aren't really good if you don't have bazaars, they still convert to damage, but seeing more cards is a better game plan. Imperial Seal and Crop Rotation should really be played for that reason. Plus, its more tutors to find the 1-2 bullets in the deck (needle, explosives, naturalize, etc).

Swords to Plowshare: I know, after bashing red for janking up the mana base, I go and introduce riftstone portal and now stp too? Here's my reason though. Its obvious ray of revelation belongs in this deck and the previous build already ran a plateau, so you can afford running swords without mutilating your manabase. With swords, your hard matchups gets a bit better since you can now deal with oath and colosus. They aren't bad against WGD and welders either. This helps against all your bad matchups except stax and pure storm based combo. For stax, u can run serenity and seeds, storm is a bit hard and having chalice board to accompany your null rods might help there.

I think thats all I got for now.

[P_f]

I just played a few games against oath and got 2-2 doing 1 pre-board and 3 post-board. I boarded in 3 rays and 4 swords while he boarded in something like 2-3 coffin purges. If his draw post board isn't busted, games are in my favor. Although winning game 1 is next to impossible.

If anger was previously played for the speed it gives against combo/combo-control, we can ditch that plan to play a control game against them. The deck really can't race combo decks anyway, even with anger.

Here's the list I made with the white splash:

========================
Disruption: (12)
4X Cabal Therapy
2X Duress
2X Last Rite
3X Null Rod
1X Engineered Explosives

Recursion: (10)
4X Squee
4X Life from the Loam
2X Krovikan Horror

Beats: (9)
3X Zombie Infestation
4X Wild Mongrel
2X Basking Rootwalla

Tutors: (3)
1X Crop Rotation
1X Vampiric Tutor
1X Demonic Tutor

Draw: (4)
4X Bazaar of Baghdad

Others: (2)
2X ??

Mana: (20)
1X Black Lotus
1X Mox Emerald
1X Mox Jet
2X RiftStone Portal
4X Polluted Delta
1X Swamp
1X Scrubland
4X Bayou
1X Strip Mine
2X Cabal Pit
2X Wasteland

SB:
3X Coffin Purge
3X Seeds of Innocence
4X Swords to Plowshare
3X Ray of Revelation
2X Serenity
=================

With the deck having great games against fish and other aggro decks, the only focus is on trying to beat control and combo-control. Null rods are there to stop moxens. I've freed up some space so that we can play an E.E. to combat oath of druids and other stuff that may give us trouble such as chalice and pithing needle.

The sideboard is where it gets tricky. You are banking on coming back game 2 and 3 in all your difficult matches. However, all of those matches have "oops, I win." types of plays whether its tendrils, tinker, or oath or just a lot of lock pieces. You have to mulligan rather aggressively and hope they don't get any "oops!". Provided they don't go broken, the sideboard should be more than ready to handle those matchups. The only things that may warrant sideboard slots are pithing needle, tormod's crypt, and if you see heavy storm, abeyance/chant.

Now for unfinished stuffs:
I've dropped the # of krovikan horror to 2 from 4 because I realize most times, loam is plain better. I always wish I was playing 4 loams post board since 6 of my sideboard cards have flashback in addition to the 4 therapies mainboard. You will find that postboard against hard matchups, you will find out wallas and horrors are your weakest cards. Null Rods also go out against oath but none of the other hard matches. With 4 squees and 4 loams, I wouldn't worry about bazaars running out of pitch targets postboard.

There's also 2 un-used slots. What should they be in order to be "optimal"?

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I am going to a tournament this Sunday for a Lotus... I will be posting my results Sunday night/ Monday afternoon. I am playing the Red variant that I have dubbed "Dawn of the Dead". I have changed many things (I just recently dropped the Madness components- Mongrel and Rootwalla). I will let you all know how I did as well as post my updated list. If it doesn't go well, I'm liking some of the new ideas. If I lose, then I won't feel the need to debate the importance of my build so I can join in with the newer stuff... Wish me luck! Or not, depending on which side of the debate you're on 

[oyzar]

The thing the nether shadows/ghouls/ichorids do is make the stax matchup bacially a bye. I won a game where i mulled to 3 andhe went first turn trini second turn crucible strip my bazzar...

[FallenOmnipotent]

The thing the nether shadows/ghouls/ichorids do is make the stax matchup bacially a bye. I won a game where i mulled to 3 andhe went first turn trini second turn crucible strip my bazzar...

Dang...  I would have felt really bad if I was the stax player...  I'm assuming you weren't playingall of those right?  Which one specificly did you play?

Anyways, I just heard of this deck and I'm very interested.  The deck deffinatly needs more cards to affect the oppontents game (additionaly to Duress + Theropy).  I'm thinking Null rod would be amazing.  But As I tried to find room for it, I could not figgure out what to cut.  Confidant is an auto-in (as I think we've concluded).

I'm personally a fan of Ashen ghoul b/c it's a beat stick...or maybe just cause it's soo rogue.  I can easily see the argument that getting 3 creatures on top might take 1-3 turns in which it might be a little slow.  But as we are already crunching to find room for cards, I don't think I'll make the cut...   ...maybe SB for STAX.

The biggest issue I see is weather to play Red or Blue or Both.  I'm currently testing it with both.  Red simply for the deathspark and Barbarian Ring.  Blue for wonder, Recall, Walk.  I've added gemstone mines to my mana base.  To be honest, I don't think it's gonna work out.  I'm thinking you have to go with one of the other.  And in the end, I think blue wins.  Why?  b/c wonder gives you the game vs. NON-combo/GWS oath.  Null Rod will help vs. Combo-oath.  And time walk looks solid enough to be in this deck.  Granted, it doesn't abuse it as much as other decks, but it'll give your guys another chance to attack, card advantage /w Confidant, and a few more critters.  As for recall...well, it's recall.

Admitidly, I have not tested the deck all that much, I'm very worried about Chalice and Pithing Needles. 

[Lunar]

I really apologize if this has been mentioned already, but have any of you tried Glacial Chasm here instead of maze of ith or another option against Oath and even other decks? With Loam you shouldnt have any problems recuring chasm and friends...fastbond in the deck and crop rotation (hey we are running green, yay) should make chasm and some other cool options really sing...

Im not 100% on how it all would work with THIS build, but it seems to be working out pretty solid in some other Loam abusing stuff ive been tinkering with...

[Disburden]

Without Red, you lose your best anti Colossus weapon/ one of the best Artifact hosers around- Artifact Mutation. Seeds of Innocence is so-so to me... I've never really cared for it, even way back in my R/G Beats days. I may give it a testing, but I've never really liked it. What is your new strategy against Colossus?

I am sorry for posting in this thread without anything related to the construction of the deck, I just needed to post on this comment. Since when does Artifact Mutation destroy DSC? He is indestructible and therefore Mutation wouldn't do anything to him, just like Shatter, or Oxidize, Naturalize, etc.

Am I correct?

[Vegeta2711]

Without Red, you lose your best anti Colossus weapon/ one of the best Artifact hosers around- Artifact Mutation. Seeds of Innocence is so-so to me... I've never really cared for it, even way back in my R/G Beats days. I may give it a testing, but I've never really liked it. What is your new strategy against Colossus?

I am sorry for posting in this thread without anything related to the construction of the deck, I just needed to post on this comment. Since when does Artifact Mutation destroy DSC? He is indestructible and therefore Mutation wouldn't do anything to him, just like Shatter, or Oxidize, Naturalize, etc.

Am I correct?

It doesn't kill the DSC, but you still get 11 1/1 tokens from casting AM on a DSC, making it a very viable strategy. Cast at EOT when DSC is first tinkered out, between blockers and your own life-total you can almost always kill the opponent before you eat it. Otherwise it's some damage and a Time Walk, so it's win-win.

[Rhyno]

First off i have to say I love this deck and being new to this discussion I want to say congrats to those who have done well with the deck. I've been aware of this deck for awhile but read this forum for the first time about a week ago. Build some of the diffrent builds and tested, tested, tested, here is what i just missed a 46 player top 8 with yesterday:

4 Zombie Infestation
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Squee
3 Krovikan Horror
3 Dark Confidant
2 Anger

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Life From The Loam
1 Darkblast
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Entomb
1 Wheel of Fourtune

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Bayou
3 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Strip Mine
 
SB:
2 Solitary Confinement
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Sacred Ground
2 Pithing Needle
2 Coffin Purge
2 Artifact Mutation
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Oxidize
1 Plateau


The wheel was something that just felt to fit this deck, and it is a great race card. Yesterday my opponent was at twenty and i had one turn to live tutored for wheel at his eot and it helped me put out the extra nine guys i needed to win. Also if your wondering about my artifact destruction package, testing showed me how awful chalice can be and expecting lots of them I needed diffrent casting costs to hit them. Solitary Confinement were the last two cards i added and in hindsight they should be the first two cards included for this deck I'm even gonna test them in the main cause this deck supports them VERY WELL!!!!!!

Input on the list?????

[NicolaeAlmighty]

As to not make people think that I have lost interest in the deck, I'll chime in with where I stand.

I am definitely taking this deck to Waterbury, but I have made some freaking huge changes. I dropped Red entirely for White... My lands are now 4x Bayou, 3x Scrubland which kinda is dirty but at the same time very powerful. It gives me some amazing maindeck choices and also some hot sideboard options. I'll post my list after Waterbury... I don't know what I'm so paranoid about, but it's preventing me from posting now. Sorry about that...

As for some of the suggestions, I kinda like Darkblast over Cabal Pit for the very simple fact that early game it can Dredge me into some Squee/ Life if I can't find my recursion. I've dropped Krovikan Horror, though. I find that having mucho card advantage is fun, but if my Bazaar gets shut down and I don't have an Infest, then I am in huge trouble. As for Colossus, White has given me something to answer it main... Swords. I run it split between main/ board now for that very reason. Tinker always pissed me off... and what pissed me off worse was that not only was it a huge part of the meta, but I was just trying to pretend that I could get around it without an answer... Big mistake.

The innovation of this deck is quite amazing... Keep up the good work everybody!

[ReAnimator]

Well I'm back from my vacation so maybe I'll be able to post more now. However i am in school in my final year so I'm still pretty busy so expect most of my ideas to be based off theories and other people's experience rather than testing 

I think white or blue are definitely the way to go now as opposed to red. white gives us Swords and blue gives us echoing truth(and broken things),
Neither really gives the deck a lot of cards just answers to tough questions (colossus , akroma)

I think in a stax meta the echoing truths are way more versatile than swords, where as metas with lots of aggro decks and oath, you probably want the Swords plan.

My meta is infested with the UW fish deck that top 8'ed SCG Rochester twice. It was created here and that whole team runs it at pretty much every event.  Also there is no stax really so I'm going to focus on the white list a little more.

I think null rods are an excellent idea to compliment the mana denial aspect. however in my meta they are useless out side the board.

Has any one tested Riftstone portal ? P_F mentioned it, and extended has been using it, does anyone have an opinion? it seems good in the abstract.

No one seems to like the Mongrels any more but i don't think i will ever cut them. They are such a fast win condition, and in my meta with all the fish the large body is really good. I think what some people don't realize when they cut the mongrels is that it turns the deck in to a more midrange aggro control deck as opposed to something that can win very quickly. With fast wins you usually don't have to worry about controlling the board so much.
I know Nicolae has a more fishy control strategy with his secret build, It does control a lot more but I'm sure it is quite a bit slower.
There are probably two different styles to build and play this deck; the faster and the slower, I personally like the fast approach for my meta better but can understand the other as well. 

Which Tutors are necessary? I've asked this a few times and no one seems to have a strong opinion one way or another. I think Crop rotation is probably the best between it, seal , and entomb but those last two seem dubious. I think in the slower versions of the deck i would probably want all of them. In the fast version i like threats more than slow tutors.

Here is my updated White list with not a lot of testing, Remember a lot of the decisions in here are very meta specific. I mostly just trimmed some 4 of's to fit in confidant and STP I'm still unconvinced of all the extra tutors. I'm not sure about the mana base but it seems OK at a glance. There are not a lot of welders in my area so i think the Darkblast should be in the side. There are a lot of 2 drop's now (even more with rods in the board) do you guys think there should be more moxes of some sort?

4 Mongrel
4 Rootwalla
4 D Confidant
3 ZI
4 Squee
2 Krovikans

4 Therapies
2 Duress
3 Loam
3 STP
3 VT DT Crop

4 Bazaar
4 moxes and a lotus
4 fetchlands
3 Bayou
2 Riftstone portal
1 Scrubland
1 Stripmine
2 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Forest

SB
3 Rods
3 Seeds of innocence
2 Naturalize
2 Ray of revelation
3 Coffin purge
1 STP
1 Darkblast

I think the seeds of innocence are still necesary because chalice Messes you up so badly.
One think i immediately like about the riftstones is that you can have crazy plays like first turn Bazaar second turn Dog/bob without having a mox  ..  crazy.
It's sort of a lame that you cant hard cast the squee for therapy goodness anymore but that came up so rarely that it probably doesn't matter.

I think for the slower blue version i would start with something like this:
3 Echoing truth
1 Walk
1 ancestral
2 Stifle
6 tutors (DT VT Mystical, Crop, Seal Entomb)
Energy flux, or null rods.
cut a bunch of threats maybe add a couple of togs and just go UBg with just a splash for Loam

-Andrew

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I know Nicolae has a more fishy control strategy with his secret build, It does control a lot more but I'm sure it is quite a bit slower.
There are probably two different styles to build and play this deck; the faster and the slower, I personally like the fast approach for my meta better but can understand the other as well.

Now wait just a moment! I have not by any means adopted this into any kind of "fishy control strategy"! I have adapted my deck into a well oiled machine! I have been working on this through many incarnations (I actually think I'm in version 8 of Dawn)... And I think it's just as, if not more, aggressive! Mongrel is decent, but it sucks when combined with Infestation. I've found a much more effecient filler in his place... and I will be posting my decklist after Waterbury. I don't want to give away any tech