Perfecting 5c stax build

[vroman]

Ive probably played more games of stax vs slaver than any other match up in magic. you have two things to worry about, active welders and double blue open w more than 2 cards in their hand. to beat slaver consistently, Id recomend maindecking welder removal, ideally darkblast, and learning how to slowroll LD and baiting threats to get past drain. slaver is very deservedly a top tier deck and hard to beat wo a thorough understanding.

[Buttons]

EDIT: Since I'm currently playing CS and considering Gifts, I just wanted to confirm with Stax players that CS absolutely crushes Stax?  Or am I just not playing Stax correctly?  The stax build I'm playing has no chalices but 3 1-balls, no chains or iteoc in the main.  The numbers I'm getting are something like 85-15 game 1 in favor of CS.  Since I'm still thinking about sideboards, I don't have any numbers on that.  Finally, how does the Gifts-Stax matchup break down?

Control Slaver is Stax's nightmare.  Oath and CS are the only thing Stax fears.  I've almost given up on the CS matchup.  It's basically a bye for them, and I've never found any tech that can just house them.  Oath is a LOT more favorable post-SB.

We should start up an UbaStax thread - but we all know the man that has to start it.    I feel, in nearly every way, Uba is superior to 5c.  The only thing 5c wins out on is versatility because of bomb spells.  You don't need that when you can lock down the board more consistently and win.

The version I run (I am now very happy to say) runs Fastbond, which, if I get online, pretty much spells doom for the opponent (as you can waste your bazaars, and replay them untapped with a wasteland) - and, if not, was a wasted force or mana drain.  Yeah, it's insane.

I'm thinking about super new tech, too, which would definitely include the WTF factor.

[Smmenen]

EDIT: Since I'm currently playing CS and considering Gifts, I just wanted to confirm with Stax players that CS absolutely crushes Stax?  Or am I just not playing Stax correctly?  The stax build I'm playing has no chalices but 3 1-balls, no chains or iteoc in the main.  The numbers I'm getting are something like 85-15 game 1 in favor of CS.  Since I'm still thinking about sideboards, I don't have any numbers on that.  Finally, how does the Gifts-Stax matchup break down?

Control Slaver is Stax's nightmare.  Oath and CS are the only thing Stax fears.  I've almost given up on the CS matchup.  It's basically a bye for them, and I've never found any tech that can just house them.  Oath is a LOT more favorable post-SB.

Since I'm not sure how long some of you guys have been playing Stax, Chains and ITEOC and even Sphere of Resistence were added into Stax by Kevin Cron PRE-3Sphere restriction as a means of fighting Control Slaver.

Before the restriction of Trinisphere, Stax did not win very much if at all.  One of hte primary reasons was that Control Slaver was always so popular.  Kevin played Chains of Mephistopheles and regular Sphere of Resitence at SCG Syracuse in February to fight COntrol slaver.

He played with 4 Sphere of Resistence and only 3 Trinisphere.  Why?  Because Sphere of Resitence makes Rack and Ruin and Thirst for Knowledge cost 4 whereas Trinisphere doesn't affect either card at all.  Chains was also added to fight Brainstorm and Thirst.  In the Eye of Chaos was likewise played specifically to fight Rack and Ruin and Thirst. 

[Buttons]

Since I'm not sure how long some of you guys have been playing Stax, Chains and ITEOC and even Sphere of Resistence were added into Stax by Kevin Cron PRE-3Sphere restriction as a means of fighting Control Slaver.

I have to admit, I don't have a ton of experience with 5c Stax.  I don't like it. 

Sorry if I gave you that impression, Smennen. 

[Smmenen]

I was just explaining that 5color stax developed as a foil to Control Slaver. 

[FiReiSFuN]

So it gets hosed because modern 5c dropped ITEOC and Chains?  Seems reasonable to me.

Any feedback from anyone on the Suppression Field idea?  When it was first outed in the Spoiler everyone was touting it as the next big Stax lock piece... but that never happened.  Why not?

[pyr0ma5ta]

Since I'm not sure how long some of you guys have been playing Stax, Chains and ITEOC and even Sphere of Resistence were added into Stax by Kevin Cron PRE-3Sphere restriction as a means of fighting Control Slaver.

Before the restriction of Trinisphere, Stax did not win very much if at all. One of hte primary reasons was that Control Slaver was always so popular. Kevin played Chains of Mephistopheles and regular Sphere of Resitence at SCG Syracuse in February to fight COntrol slaver.

He played with 4 Sphere of Resistence and only 3 Trinisphere. Why? Because Sphere of Resitence makes Rack and Ruin and Thirst for Knowledge cost 4 whereas Trinisphere doesn't affect either card at all. Chains was also added to fight Brainstorm and Thirst. In the Eye of Chaos was likewise played specifically to fight Rack and Ruin and Thirst.

I admitted myself that I am pretty much new to the Vintage scene, although I have been lurking and reading TMD and SCG for the last year or so.  My 5c doesn't run ITEOC and Chains because frankly, I'm a netdecker with little experience, so I'm trying to get a feel for established decks before I try to innovate.  I was not aware of how critical the enchantments were to 5c, and maybe I should start testing with them.  Is there a standard 5c + enchantments stax list I can see for reference? 

Also, I'm getting the feeling from the "How to play CS now" thread that CS is considered to be a dead deck, and most CS players have moved on to the Next Big Thing (tm)-Gifts.  I don't see how this makes sense, if CS crushes stax if it doesn't run the enchantments, and stax is considered top-tier.  How does the Gifts-stax (any and all flavors of stax) matchup look?  Is it just a race to see if stax can resolve something bombish before Gifts can go nuts?

[FiReiSFuN]

I commented about the matchup on the previous page if you haven't seen it, but it pretty much goes that you MUST have a Turn 1 and 2 threat.  If one gets Forced that is fine, but you can't let them have their way free and clear during their first two turns.


@Pyromasta:  If you haven't read it yet, I'd have a look at http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10203.html.  It's a pretty comprehensive article by Smmenen (who else?) on a variant of Stax that eschews Welders for enchantment lock pieces, called CronStax.

[Flux]

Ive probably played more games of slaver vs ubastax than any other match up in magic.  Ubastax is the best stax deck.  The problem with me saying that is only a few people can pilot the deck to a top 8 finish.  The deck is so complex, and for someone who plays control slaver, it is a dream come true.  I want to play ubastax all day in a tournament because someone will always make a crucial miss play that I can abuse.  Not putting a counter on stack, missing a land drop from crucible, missing an important welder activation, these are all things that can happen when playing any stax build.  In ubastax, there is this, and then some.  You have to know when to play ubamask, when to use bazaars, and the hardest part about playing the deck, what to pitch to bazaar.  I win so many games against this deck because people don't know how to abuse their bazaars.  The reason the deck doesn't need tutors is because it has bazaars.  Think of the bazaars as uncounterable tutors.  The deck runs so many four-ofs and then bazaar to find them, there is no need for the tutors.  On top of all of this, there is the added benefit of the dreaded Uba Lock, that only ubastax can achieve.  If you want to play the best stax deck (ubastax) then come to Ogre's Cards and learn how from Vroman or maybe play a few games against me.

On the subject of control slaver being dead, it is not.  The only problem match I have is Oath, every other deck in the format just takes patients and time to learn how to play against it.  Josh Smith piloted team ogres control slaver list to a 12th place finish at Star City Chicago, and when I asked him if he thought the deck was good, he said, "I will never play a different deck in type one."  Josh is a very good player, and I respect his opinion about such matters.  The deck is capable of being the best, it just needs a few metegame choices and a solid side board.

Peace Up to GWS.

[Bram]

how does the Gifts-stax (any and all flavors of stax) matchup look?

The 5cstax (pseudo-Chang stax anyway) - Meandeck Gifts matchup is, in my experience, about 50-50, possibly slighly skewed towards the Stax player (maybe 60-40). This is from testing. In tournaments, I've crushed all but one Gifts opponent so far (though this is a much less significant result han the playtest matches since the matches were fewer and my opponents were worse). I'd rather see Gifts opposite me any dat that ControlSlaver, which I agree is prettty much hopeless. Also: Raffinity (and other really good workshop aggro) are pretty much auto-losses for Stax, too. It's Balance or die, baby. Imperial Seal really shines in those matchups.

I very much doubt that ControlSlaver is dead. In the hands of a capable player, it's still a weapon to be reckoned with. That said, not all that many people can really play ControlSlaver. Personally, the CS thing doesn't worry me in the slightest, though, since I pretty much never see it over here anymore.

[Buttons]

Ive probably played more games of slaver vs ubastax than any other match up in magic.  Ubastax is the best stax deck.  The problem with me saying that is only a few people can pilot the deck to a top 8 finish.  The deck is so complex, and for someone who plays control slaver, it is a dream come true.  I want to play ubastax all day in a tournament because someone will always make a crucial miss play that I can abuse.  Not putting a counter on stack, missing a land drop from crucible, missing an important welder activation, these are all things that can happen when playing any stax build.  In ubastax, there is this, and then some.  You have to know when to play ubamask, when to use bazaars, and the hardest part about playing the deck, what to pitch to bazaar.  I win so many games against this deck because people don't know how to abuse their bazaars.  The reason the deck doesn't need tutors is because it has bazaars.  Think of the bazaars as uncounterable tutors.  The deck runs so many four-ofs and then bazaar to find them, there is no need for the tutors.  On top of all of this, there is the added benefit of the dreaded Uba Lock, that only ubastax can achieve.  If you want to play the best stax deck (ubastax) then come to Ogre's Cards and learn how from Vroman or maybe play a few games against me.

Personally, I think UbaStax is VERY easy to play if you know the mechanics of the cards (for instance, knowing how to use the triggers of the Stax, and how Uba Mask works).  Just don't forget what you have in play (I.E., know that you have a Mask in play, and not a Stax, and that you're planning on switching them via Welder at the end of your opponents turn) and you'll never miss anything.

Honestly, you don't have ANYTHING to think about with Ubastax if you've been playing it for any amount of time. I'll admit that when you get Stax, Uba and Cruicible off a bazaar when you previously only had one card in your hand it might be a tricky choice, but you should know what to get depending on what deck you're playing against and if you have a welder in play with a free weld-out piece.

That's the ONLY tricky choice, though.  And it's not even that tricky if you know what you're doing.

How does the Gifts-stax (any and all flavors of stax) matchup look?  Is it just a race to see if stax can resolve something bombish before Gifts can go nuts?

I play Uba, and I can't give you stats on 5c, but for me -

Pre-board the Uba-Gifts matchup is 60-40 if both players know what they're doing, and like, 75-25 post-board. 

Every single card in my sideboard is good against Gifts.

Let me say this again.  I have FIFTEEN cards in my SB that wreck gifts.

How it plays out is that if Gifts somehow manages to get a Tinker-Colossus early (hard to do with Null Rods and Chalices), and you can't find a Welder or Duplicant, they win.  That's pre-board.  Of course, they could get some nutty lotus, mox, land, time walk, tinker, FoW with another random blue card hand ON THE PLAY, but you can say that about any deck.

And, actually, if you're running my version of Uba, (I call it UbaBond,)  I still have a chance.

Taiga (or Emerald)
Fastbond
Workshop
Workshop
Workshop
Lotus (or Workshop, whatever)
Duplicant
Duplicant on the Draw

Of course, I wouldn't keep that hand worth anything, but I still COULD, if you give me the nut draw and them the nut draw, I actually win.

It's far more important for Uba to go first in this matchup than it is for Gifts.

If Gifts EVER kills you via Belcher or Tendrils, your deck has not done it's your job and given you all land off bazaar.  Period.

Post-board, just look at Vroman's board and you'll see why the matchup after the board is easy.

[Flux]

Well nothing is tricky if you know how to do it.  The point I was trying to make is that Ubastax is hard to play because it has all of the mechanics of a normal stax deck and then some.  There is so much to think about when you play the deck, and any tiny miss play could cost you the game.  If it were easy to pilot then why is Vroman the only person who has been extremely successful with the deck.  The answer is because he knows how to play the deck, and even when I play him he says he has difficulty making some decisions.

[PucktheCat]

If Gifts EVER kills you via Belcher or Tendrils, your deck has not done it's your job and given you all land off bazaar.  Period.

This is utterly false.  Trying to kill with Tinker against Uba Stax is a pure desperation play, the default is Tendrils.  The matchup is by no means an easy one for Gifts, but with careful play it is certainly winable.  Rebuild is the key.

That being said, I woudn't recommend anyone try to win with Gifts in a Uba Stax meta.  I did alright over the summer, but that was before vroman added Pyroblast to the sideboard :shudder:.

Leo

[Smmenen]

I don't know why it took him that long to use REBS   Stax players just don't like REB for some reason.  It's savage. 

[Bram]

I've been playing REB in my 5cstax board for as long as I can remember. Indeed, it really is that good. And Choke, man, that just murders Gifts. I had one maindeck for a while but very recently decided I probably don't even need it to keep that particular matchup >50%, and freed up the slot for Imperial Seal to improve, oh, probably every other matchup.

[Buttons]

If Gifts EVER kills you via Belcher or Tendrils, your deck has not done it's your job and given you all land off bazaar.  Period.

This is utterly false.  Trying to kill with Tinker against Uba Stax is a pure desperation play, the default is Tendrils.  The matchup is by no means an easy one for Gifts, but with careful play it is certainly winable.  Rebuild is the key.

That being said, I woudn't recommend anyone try to win with Gifts in a Uba Stax meta.  I did alright over the summer, but that was before vroman added Pyroblast to the sideboard :shudder:.

Leo

Are you serious?  I have NEVER, wait, let me say this again:  I have NEVER been killed by Tendrils when I actually had permanents out, and only thrice with Belcher.  The Tendrils kill was first turn on the play from a nut draw.  Really nothing I can do about that.  Of the games that Gifts has actually won against me, Colossus has won 95% of the games, because I couldn't resolve a Welder or Duplicant to take care of him.

I can _always_ resolve a null rod, chalice for 0 or 1, OR 2, and most of the time 3.  Rebuild hurts, agreed and obviously, but against Gifts, I'm going to try to throw down a Chalice for three to stop most of your stuff anyway.  Most of the builds that I've played against run Rushing River main, with no Hurkyl, and the MD first game is the only one I really need to worry about.  If they run Rushing River, Chalice for 3 stops Will, Tinker, AND Rushing River, in addition to TfK's, etc.  Game over when I get Chalice for 3, which really isn't all that hard considering the enormous amount of mana I produce.  If I'm just going for pure 3Chalice, I can consistently do that third turn, with a GOOD amount of second turn Chalices fo' 3.

I don't know why it took him that long to use REBS   Stax players just don't like REB for some reason.  It's savage. 

Agreed.  I ALWAYS run 4 SB.  They've been the absolute nuttiness.  One time, I kept Ruby/2x B-Ring with two REBs, Null Rod, Bazaar.  This is third game, in fact, because he went first turn tinker on the play last game, and forced my Welder.

I'm on the play, and I go:  Ruby, B-ring, go.  He goes:  Lotus, Sapphire, Jet, Polluted Delta, breaks it for Island, Ancestral, (which I REB with ruby mana) and he goes:  Tinker.  I'm like, "Ha, REB."

I DRAW INTO ANOTHER REB.

I play Null Rod, say go.  His next turn, he goes:  Land, Hurkyl's Recall.  I go:  REB.

I draw a Welder, play it, and Bazaar.  He topdecks brainstorm, looks at the top three and concedes after I bazaar a Trinisphere and Stax into the yard next turn.

[PucktheCat]

Buttons, I am serious.  I tested and played the Uba Stax/Gifts matchup a lot over the summer, and I think I had about as good a handle on that matchup as anyone.  Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall is the most important card for Gifts, so you will almost always have it in hand or graveyard in any game you have a hope of winning.  Once you have one of those cards available Tendrils is a much easier and more secure kill than DSC.

REB/Pyro completely owns Gifts because you rarely get to keep enough mana on the board to cast more than one big spell.  If they REB your Gifts and eat the Moxen you use to cast it you probably lose.

Leo

[Buttons]

The thing is, of which you're very well aware of if you've played the matchup alot,

Ubastax denies moxen in three ways:  Chalice for 0 on the play, Null Rod, and Gorilla Shaman.

Then, depending on whether you're running Rebuild or Hurkyl's recall, (the best thing to do is to run both,) they'll put down a chalice according to whatever bounce you're running, whether it's two or three.

First or second turn Tinker (when Ubastax doesn't have a chalice down restricting tinker, and no mana denial in the form of null rod or chalice for 1) is your best bet to win the game.

Ubastax can't afford to play the long-term game, and if they do, they're wasting/stripping your lands with crucible.  If you cast gifts, you obviously win because you have enough mana to do so - unless they have a chalice for three.

In general, Gifts just loses the matchup, ESPECIALLY post sideboard because of the REB's, extra null rod, Tormod's Crypts (just in case they don't get the null rods) etc brought in.

Tendrils is a horrible gameplan because Ubastax just has too much hate.  Unless you can reliably pull off a Tendrils kill in the first three turns, specializing in the first two, you won't win with Tendrils.  It's not more reliable - it's less.

Getting a Tinker with force backup is so much easier to do.  All you have to do is make sure they don't get a welder on the board, and hope they don't get enough mana to hardcast Duplicant.  Or, you can just force/drain it.

You can get a Tinker-Colossus when they have stuff on the board, which is FAR more common than just goldfishing against Ubastax.  You generally cannot pull off enough storm when they have null rod, chalice for 0 or 1 or BOTH, and other hate, like Gorilla Shaman.

You have to play around so much hate to win, it doesn't really matter what your way of winning is, but Tinker-Colossus is more reliable because you do less.

Tendrils/Belcher is the SECONDARY win condition, after all.

[vroman]

if your not playing darkblast main in gifts, you are giving welder decks way more breathing room than they deserve right now. my game plan against gifts is based entirely on smokestack. mox hate buys time, but unless I luck into Tsphere or strip recursion, smokestack is the only way to knock out the bulk of their mana. its one of the simplest races I can face, if gifts hits land drops and builds up mana faster than I can tear it down, they win, and vice versa.

[Bram]

Yeah, OK, but the way I feel is: CS is pretty much an autoloss anyway, barring a creepy fast lock hand. Combined with the fact I don't see CS a heck of a lot here anymore, I think this justifies not running it. Multi-purpose bombs are just better, IMHO.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Buttons, I am serious.  I tested and played the Uba Stax/Gifts matchup a lot over the summer, and I think I had about as good a handle on that matchup as anyone.  Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall is the most important card for Gifts, so you will almost always have it in hand or graveyard in any game you have a hope of winning.  Once you have one of those cards available Tendrils is a much easier and more secure kill than DSC.

REB/Pyro completely owns Gifts because you rarely get to keep enough mana on the board to cast more than one big spell.  If they REB your Gifts and eat the Moxen you use to cast it you probably lose.

Leo

This analysis is spot on. As a gifts player you basically have 2 goals. Get Mana Drain online and get bounce. Tinker-colossus is a very weak win condition vs. stax. Most stax decks pack many answers for it in the form of duplicant/welder/swords/balance. Not to mention now they have another tutor to find those bombs. Finding a bounce spell via merchant scroll and winning with Tendrils is much easier.

As far as the CS matchup goes, if everyone agrees CS and Gifts are the best decks in the format, how come I see nobody running chains? The reliance on Brainstorm has been at an all time high, and it doesn't affect 5c stax. It has the potential to WRECK dragon and uba stax as well. CS is by no means an autoloss. Good play and the right threats can give CS a hard time.

-Bob

[Buttons]

This analysis is spot on. As a gifts player you basically have 2 goals. Get Mana Drain online and get bounce. Tinker-colossus is a very weak win condition vs. stax. Most stax decks pack many answers for it in the form of duplicant/welder/swords/balance. Not to mention now they have another tutor to find those bombs. Finding a bounce spell via merchant scroll and winning with Tendrils is much easier.
-Bob

I'm talking Uba over here.  5c is an easier matchup for Gifts because Null Rod doesn't exist in that matchup.

Uba doesn't have tutors to get Balance or Swords.  All we have is 4 Welders, and 2 Duplicants (post-board 4).  We virtually NEED welder to get a Duplicant out, unless we get two workshops or something, but then you have a huge drain target and you win next turn anyway.

When I'm playing Gifts, Chalice for Three, and then for Two are the big goals, aside, as Vroman's said, getting a Stax online, (which is always good).

I've played more Ubastax vs. Gifts than anything else, and I can tell you that Ubastax wins because of hate, namely in Null Rod + Chalice for 3 + Chalice for 2, or Wasteland/Strip Recursion.

And I haven't even said anything about Trinisphere or Smokestack.

Either or, they have more chance of doing that than Gifts has of getting a bounce card, playing it, going nuts and casting tendrils.

However, getting a Colossus out via Tinker in the early game is almost unstoppable for Ubastax, because chances are, they're setting up for locks and hate for the GAME, not for Colossus.  I.E., I'll mulligan a hand that has two welders and no bazaar in it - but not one that has two chalices, a null rod, and a workshop in it.

Regardless of however good Tendrils seems, you're not going to have enough mana to play all this crazy stuff and get the storm count high enough to where you can kill someone playing Uba.  You can't produce enough mana.  However, third turn tinker is a very viable option under Null Rod, Chalice for 0, 1, AND 2 - and chances are that they're going to get lock pieces out faster than you can get anything out...

...Which is why they win.  So you have to play around their gameplan, because Uba's gameplan is to deny you the ability to play things through denying you mana through denying you mana permanents.  You have to use something else that doesn't go with that gameplan - I.E., Tinker-Colossus.

I fear Tinker-Colossus exponentially more than I fear Tendrils.  Maybe that's because I've never lost to it.  Who knows.

[vroman]

good gifts players slowroll their duals. wasteland is nearly useless in this match. since stripmine is clearly inconsistent, crucible is minimaly beneficial here and I frequently side 2 out. FAST mana denial is the key here. chalices and null rod to keep broken stuff bottled up, and then smokestack to sweep up the peices.

[PucktheCat]

Buttons:  I don't get it.  You keep saying the same thing over and over, but you haven't responded to my point.  Of course Gifts can't win with Tendrils when Null Rod is in play.    But the deck has at least four basic lands (perhaps more) and 4 Merchant Scrolls, 1 Mystical Tutor, 1 Demonic Tutor and 1 Rebuild (plus at probably 2 Hurkyl's Recall post-sb).  That alone makes it pretty likely that a Rebuild or Recall will resolve.  If it does resolve, Gifts gets one turn to use all of its mana to try to win the game.  It can do so in a number of ways, but the best is to cast Yawg. Will.  At that point, killing with Tendrils is easier and safer than DSC.  Of course, this plan doesn't work if Uba Stax successfully attacks your basic lands with Smokestack or Strip Mine, but it is the best plan available.

Note that I am not saying that Gifts matches up well with Uba Stax.  I think I can claim that I just about split with vroman when we played over the summer, but I expect REB has changed that significantly.  But the point remains that I kill with Tendrils more than Tinker in this matchup.  I would suggest that if the players you are facing are not using the bounce-Tendrils plan you are not getting a very good picture of the matchup.

Leo

[Buttons]

Note that I am not saying that Gifts matches up well with Uba Stax.  I think I can claim that I just about split with vroman when we played over the summer, but I expect REB has changed that significantly.  But the point remains that I kill with Tendrils more than Tinker in this matchup.  I would suggest that if the players you are facing are not using the bounce-Tendrils plan you are not getting a very good picture of the matchup.

The players I play with admittedly do play with a different secondary kill than Tendrils, although I do play people who play with Tendrils.  My buddy plays with nothing but Gifts, and he thinks it's far inferior.  I tend to agree.

We tested Tendrils out when the Tendrils/Belcher debate was going on, and both agreed that Belcher is better in most of the matchups.

Regardless, when I have played against it, it was by far subpar.  The Gifts builds I usually play against only use 2 Merchant Scroll main, but it's pointless, as most of your tutors cost 2 anyway.

Look, for what the matchup is:  I can have an enormous amount of Chalices out, and I'm more likely to put it at 2 than I am at 3 because it's less mana.  That denies you your tutors, save mystical.  The builds I usually go against only have three basics, and wasteland can shut off the remainders.

I'm just saying that I fear Tinker more because of what I've experienced.  Bounce/Tendrils is a threat, but I almost always that is, like 95% have chalices up by the time you can do that.  Usually it's chalice for 2, denying you tutors.

I think it's a better gameplan to try to tutor up tinker early, instead of spending alot of draw, and alot of tutors to get yawg's will, bounce, and whatever else you need to win.

Spending one tutor is better than spending two tutors, especially against Ubastax.

I'm just saying that Tinkering early is almost always better than letting the Uba player build up hate so that you can't get through it.

[vroman]

I definitely fear rebuild more than tinker in gifts. if gifts topdecks tinker and immediately throws it out there by itself, wo the double time walk combo win, then I have 2 turns to find an answer. depending on my board position, I can draw a LOT of cards in 2 turns. rebuild however lets the gifts player do whatever he wants w abandon for at least one turn. if its late game they may have a fair trove of mana ready to play w, esp if they just bounced a null rod. Id rather have my board intact to deal w a clear and present major threat, then have my board put back in my hand and be defenseless against potential threats.

[Buttons]

I definitely fear rebuild more than tinker in gifts. if gifts topdecks tinker and immediately throws it out there by itself, wo the double time walk combo win, then I have 2 turns to find an answer. depending on my board position, I can draw a LOT of cards in 2 turns. rebuild however lets the gifts player do whatever he wants w abandon for at least one turn. if its late game they may have a fair trove of mana ready to play w, esp if they just bounced a null rod. Id rather have my board intact to deal w a clear and present major threat, then have my board put back in my hand and be defenseless against potential threats.

I haven't experienced this at all, Vroman.  Are you playing against Belcher-Gifts or Tendrils-Gifts?

BTW, you have one turn to find a Welder, and two to find a Duplicant (to hardcast).

I can usually lock the board down long enough to get a Chalice for two, and then a Chalice for three.  First-third turn tinker almost always kills me, because if I find a Welder, they counter it.

When I play Welder right off the bat, they have to find pithing needle or darkblast to get out Colossus, and if they're playing Belcher or Vault, they need to get my Null Rod off the board so I know exactly what's coming.

Maybe my deck has had drastically different shuffles than everyone elses, (although I do play with Fastbond/Crop Rotation), and I just draw the absolutely nuttiest opening hands after I mulligan and can win from there.  I usually don't play Welder until like, 5th turn because I can't find a red mana source, or I just don't get him until the ubazaar engine is going.

I fear rebuild/hurkyll's too, and that's why it's goal no. 1 to put down chalices and start tearing away stuff via Stax.  I almost always can.  I've seriously only lost to Belcher three or four times, and Tendrils once.  I fear Tinker more than both of them, because most of the time, it's me not finding a null rod or chalice and them going nuts and playing Tinker, and then that's all I find, and I can't find a Welder or hardcast Duplicant.

[49 Cents]

Back to the main question about 5c Staxx, not Uba Staxx:

I've piloted this list to a 5-0-1 (ID) 2nd place finish (33 Players - 2nd on tiebreakers):

The Red Light District: StaXXX

MAINDECK (60)

// Lock (15)
3 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere Of Resistance
3 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere

// Beatz & Trickz (8)
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Triskelion
3 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Duplicant
1 Karn, Silver Golem

// Toolbox (10)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Crop Rotation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Balance
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Imperial Seal
1 Fastbond

// Mana (27)
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 City Of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Tolarian Academy

SIDEBOARD (15)

// Trash (15)
3 Seal of Cleansing
1 Jester's Jap
1 Viashino Heretic
2 Choke
3 Pyroblast
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Chalice of the Void

Tops are AWESOME. They are never going to leave my list again. Thirsts are awfull but Tops are a fine replacement.
Razormane is pretty good. Even against control it's still a 5/5 beater. The discarding doesn't matter at all. It even won me a game where I could discard my Trisk (that I stacked with Top, ofcourse) and Weld it back in.
Fastbond is just good. Sure it can be a dead card but you can also make more permanents for Smokestack ramping and you can ofcourse strip all their lands away. I have never used Duplicant today, so I'm not sure if it's any good or not..
3 Welder and 1 Shaman is fine. Never had any problems.
Plus I'm going to remove the Chalices from my board for usefull cards.. I really don't like Chalice. Why would you board out good cards for Chalices in god's name??
My matchups:
1) Alex Rood with Suicide w/G 2-1
2) Marco Kievit with Stasis Staxx 2-0
3) Hero 't Mannetje (Pyromaniac) with ControlPile 2-1
4) Koen v/d Hulst (Thug) with The Perfect Pile 2-1
5) Frits Brun (Teammate) with Needle-Swords Oath 1-1 ID
6) Pim Wilgenburg with Duress-Staxx 2-1

I'm going to post the lists in a few days I guess..

Greetz,

Hugo

Edit: Forgot my SB..

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Tops are AWESOME. They are never going to leave my list again. Thirsts are awfull but Tops are a fine replacement.

Doesn't anyone listen to me anymore? Either way,  congrats on the high finish. I've been preaching top in stax ever since I saw Cron run them. It gives stax a permanent and card quality, what else could you want?

[49 Cents]

You were actually the one I picked up the tech from; you mentioned it earlier in the thread.