Perfecting 5c stax build

[Mox Sapphire]

What do you guys think of this new list?


      // Lands            
1   OD   Barbarian Ring   
4   AN   City of Brass      
3   WL   Gemstone Mine      
4   AQ   Mishra's Workshop      
1   AQ   Strip Mine      
1   US   Tolarian Academy      
4   TE   Wasteland      
      
      // Creatures            
1   AL   Gorilla Shaman   
4   UL   Goblin Welder   
1   MR   Triskelion   
1   FD   Razormane Masticore   
      
      // Spells            
1   B   Ancestral Recall
1   B   Balance   
1   B   Black Lotus   
1   UL   Crop Rotation
3   FD   Crucible of Worlds
1   B   Demonic Tutor
1   PR   Mana Crypt   
1   B   Mana Vault   
1   B   Mox Emerald   
1   B   Mox Jet   0   
1   B   Mox Pearl   
1   B   Mox Ruby   
1   B   Mox Sapphire   
4   US   Smokestack   
1   A   Sol Ring   
1   UL   Tinker   
1   DS   Trinisphere   
1   VI   Vampiric Tutor   
4   MR   Chalice of the Void   
4   EX   Sphere of Resistance   
1   OV   Swords to Plowshares   
3   NE   Tangle Wire   
      
      // Sideboard            
1 Karn, Silver Golem   
2 Swords to Plowshares   
1 Fastbond   
2 Seal of Cleansing   
2 Viashino Heretic   
3 Red Elemental Blast   
3 Blue Elemental Blast   
1 Sundering Titan

This deck is the result of much testing. Please tell me what you think. Razormane is AWESOME with welder. It also kills opposing welders. Fastbond is only good in the mirror. 3 crucibles are better than 4. Tangle wire is very good with chalice+spheres.

[Bram]

I still don't see the point in running draw in stax. Thirst costs 3 non-shop mana. It seems like a HUGE tempo loss if you're wasting your turn casting it.

True. That's just true. You do lose tempo. And it's not all that easy to cast, barring a heavy moxen hand (since you really need to find the time to play at least 1 worksshop). Except, well, you DO need to have something on hand in order to play it, obviously, and this helps you get it. Also: it gets stuff in the yard for welder....I know that's a bit of a half-hearted reason though.

If you're casting it after you drop your lock pieces, it seems like a win more card.

Not necessarily. Against, say, combo builds you can lock them all you want; it's bound to be temporary. They'll just sit there waiting to draw into mass bounce + god hand. You'll need to kill them before they do, which means you need to topdeck your wins; something Stax can be remarkably bad at. I hate its slow clock most of all.

I'll repeat what I said before about tutors, the ability to find the one card you want for 1 or 2 mana is invaluable.

Yeah, but I already do run Vampiric and Demonic. What exactly are you suggesting? Imperial Seal? Demonic Consultation? Tainted Pact? Enlightened Tutor?

[Wollblad]

Re: Thirst
So you don't lose tempo on waiting a turn to draw the lock component that ends up on the top of your library? If you have a Welder out, you can even gain tempo from Thirst. Tempo gain and card advantage must be superior to card disadvantage and tempo loss. Now you will argue that if you have an active Welder, you are winning anyhow, but that's not true, specially during the first few turns when you have nothing in your graveyard to play with. You must have more threats to drop than your opponent can deal with. If you are actively reducing your number of threats (most tutors), then your opponent will counter the vital lock components and break free of the rest.
Thirst is by the way strictly superior to Compulsive Research since the latter is good only when you have a Crucible i play while Thirst has synergy with Welders.

Sensei's Dev. Top is interesting, but you don't want more than necessary on CC 1 since the strongest Chalice play is for one. This has already been noticed, but in other words. I would put i in the way that if your deck cannot operate if you cast Chalice on one, your deck is missbuilt.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

When you cast thirst, you are either 1) Saving your mana to EOT thirst, meaning you wasted the previous turn not dropping a lock piece, or 2) playing it mainphase hoping to draw enough mana/lock piece to cast it. In my experience, 2 rarely happens, and 1 is a tempo loss. The difference between 2 and 3 mana is HUGE, which is why Demonic is so awesome. As for vamp, it's instant speed meaning you can play your smoketack off Shop/Mox and EOT tutor up a crucible or whatever you need. Either that or you cast it on your upkeep. Nobody is stupid enough to cast a vamp tutor on their mainphase without some way of drawing the tutored card. Your point about Seal is a good one, but I think a tutor that grabs strip/shop/karn/3sphere is just too good to pass up.

The point about drawing into your win conditions applies for tutors as well. The card disadvantage sometimes hurts, but it's never been an issue for me.

The other thing to realize is that postboard, you can run a bunch more singleton bombs. What's your SB plan with thirsts? Do you board them out? It seems to me the deck becomes very clunky if you run 3-4 thirsts and board in multiple 3cc spells (choke, ITEOC, Heretic, Rack and Ruin).

-Bob

[Tin_Mox5831]

I'm sorta puzzled why we started another 5-Color Stax thread rather than bumping the other one, but oh well. I've been playing around with a build of Stax that focuses heavily on the lock and it's tutors, while utilizing efficient win conditions. I've tried to discuss it a few different times on Star City Games, but other than a few comments, I didn't get much response. That's what I need. If it appears to be a sucky list, let me know. My goal here is to accumulate as much feedback as I can from this post.

Here's my list:

Mishra's Workshop x 4
City Of Brass x 4
Gemstone Mine x 4
Wasteland x 4
Tendo Ice Bridge x 1
Barbarian Ring x 1
God's Eye, Gate To The Reikai x 1
Tolarian Academy x 1
Strip Mine x 1
Mox Jet x 1
Mox Ruby x 1
Mox Pearl x 1
Mox Emerald x 1
Mox Sapphire x 1
Black Lotus x 1
Mana Vault x 1
Mana Crypt x 1
Sol Ring x 1
Balance x 1
Null Rod x 2
Smokestack x 4
Crucible Of Worlds x 4
Chalice Of The Void x 4
Sphere Of Resistance x 4
Seal Of Cleansing x 2
Goblin Welder x 2
Imperial Seal x 1
Ancestral Recall x 1
Demonic Tutor x 1
Crop Rotation x 1
Vampiric Tutor x 1
Trinisphere x 1
Tinker x 1

Mainly, I like this build for two reasons:

1) Null Rod is an absolute freaking house. As a huge fan of Karn, I feel I have cast this card to the wayside for way too long. A 2Sphere on the play is good, but a Null Rod on the play is almost always better and falls into the same mana curve. Also, while some of Stax' lock components lose efficiency when the opponent gets a fast start, Null Rod is great in helping you to play from behind.

2) All Magic decks are based on two premises: Consistency and Flexibility. This build of Stax certainly has both. I run a full complement of every relevant lock component and a full arsenal of tutors, allowing this deck operate in a very consistent manner. The fact that my win conditions are mainly lands makes the deck play smoother than any build I've ever had together despite it's lack of fat. That's gotta count for something.

As I said, I'd really like as much feedback and input as possible.

Also, why on Earth would you ever run less than 4 Crucibles in Stax right now? It's a great card in every matchup, and it is by far the strongest maindeck card in Stax mirrors, a matchup you can expect at least a couple of times per tournament. Maybe I'm just off my rocker, but I will NEVER cut any of my Crucibles from this deck unless the DCI forces me to via restriction.

Thanks for the time,
Dave

[Mox Sapphire]

What's better? Seal of cleansing or null rod for the last 2 slots?

[sean1i0]

While top is amazing, it becomes even more so as you add more shuffle effects, just like brainstorm.  I think the real question with it is whether or not it's good enough with the small amount of shuffle effects present in stax to drop a lock component to put it in the deck.  The only way to resolve that matter, as I see it, is just to sit down and test the deck without all the different variations of lock components that would allow top to be in the deck.

[MoxMonkey]

I'm sorta puzzled why we started another 5-Color Stax thread rather than bumping the other one, but oh well. I've been playing around with a build of Stax that focuses heavily on the lock and it's tutors, while utilizing efficient win conditions. I've tried to discuss it a few different times on Star City Games, but other than a few comments, I didn't get much response. That's what I need. If it appears to be a sucky list, let me know. My goal here is to accumulate as much feedback as I can from this post.

Here's my list:

Mishra's Workshop x 4
City Of Brass x 4
Gemstone Mine x 4
Wasteland x 4
Tendo Ice Bridge x 1  - Why do you need more mana?
Barbarian Ring x 1  - I dont like it you dont have bazzar to hit threshold fast
God's Eye, Gate To The Reikai x 1  - Way to slow to win the 2/3 games
Tolarian Academy x 1
Strip Mine x 1
Mox Jet x 1
Mox Ruby x 1
Mox Pearl x 1
Mox Emerald x 1
Mox Sapphire x 1
Black Lotus x 1
Mana Vault x 1
Mana Crypt x 1
Sol Ring x 1  - 30 Mana Sources seems a bit much maybe drop it to 28 like other builds
Balance x 1
Null Rod x 2
Smokestack x 4
Crucible Of Worlds x 4
Chalice Of The Void x 4
Sphere Of Resistance x 4
Seal Of Cleansing x 2
Goblin Welder x 2
Imperial Seal x 1
Ancestral Recall x 1
Demonic Tutor x 1
Crop Rotation x 1
Vampiric Tutor x 1
Trinisphere x 1
Tinker x 1

Mainly, I like this build for two reasons:

1) Null Rod is an absolute freaking house. As a huge fan of Karn, I feel I have cast this card to the wayside for way too long. A 2Sphere on the play is good, but a Null Rod on the play is almost always better and falls into the same mana curve. Also, while some of Stax' lock components lose efficiency when the opponent gets a fast start, Null Rod is great in helping you to play from behind.

2) All Magic decks are based on two premises: Consistency and Flexibility. This build of Stax certainly has both. I run a full complement of every relevant lock component and a full arsenal of tutors, allowing this deck operate in a very consistent manner. The fact that my win conditions are mainly lands makes the deck play smoother than any build I've ever had together despite it's lack of fat. That's gotta count for something.

As I said, I'd really like as much feedback and input as possible.

Also, why on Earth would you ever run less than 4 Crucibles in Stax right now? It's a great card in every matchup, and it is by far the strongest maindeck card in Stax mirrors, a matchup you can expect at least a couple of times per tournament. Maybe I'm just off my rocker, but I will NEVER cut any of my Crucibles from this deck unless the DCI forces me to via restriction.

Thanks for the time,
Dave

You Need a Clock.  You kill WAY to slow to think your going to win in a  50 minute round.  I would try fitting in a  Razermane Masticore or 2 to help with fast aggro and being able to kill in the time period.  Everything else is standard and Null Rod is house and can be dropped Mid to late game to just stop mana acc cause you will have Crucible out and be fine with mana.

[Zomar]

I see no reason for stax not to play triskelion and titan. Razormane Masticore is good but triskelion kills creatures (welder) the necesarry one turn faster.

[MoxMonkey]

Null Rod is better for Stax to run in the metagame right now and Razermane deals with Welders.  I think you need Null rod to beat Slaver/Gifts and drain decks.  MoxMonkey doesn't have the mana base support to be abused in Stax like he is in Slaver.  You want to be using your wastelands and tapping your color sources to set up tutors and lock pieces.  Slaver has the ability to sit back on Forces and drains and just EOT eat a mox if he can.  You cannot sit back you need to be aggressive and be dropping threats turn after turn after turn while attack the mana base.  A well Timed Null Rod will shut down a mana base while you recover with Crucible of Worlds.

[xerxes]

Here is my latest build of stax optimized against control decks. I really like RootMaze, It combos to the extreme with Choke against blue decks, and allows your wastelands to hit fetchlands. RootMaze+Gorilla Shaman=one way Null Rod. At SCG Chicago, Kevin Cron was running Mazes along with many other odd choices.



RootStax

4 Smokestack
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Root Maze
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere

3 Goblin Welder
3 Gorilla Shaman
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Karn, Silver Golem

1 Choke
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Balance

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal


1 Mox Diamond
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine


SB: 2 Choke

[Buttons]

If I were to run 5c Stax, I would run a very similiar version to Chang's, with a few differences.

27 MANA PRODUCERS + STRIP
1  Barbarian Ring
1  Strip Mine
1  Tolarian Academy
3  Gemstone Mine
4  City of Brass
4  Mishra's Workshop
4  Wasteland
5  Moxen
1  Black Lotus
1  Mana Crypt
1  Mana Vault
1  Sol Ring

7 CREATURES
1  Karn, Silver Golem
0  Triskelion
0  Sundering Titan
2  Gorilla Shaman 
4  Goblin Welder

16 LOCK
3  Sphere of Resistance
4  Crucible of Worlds
1  Trinisphere
4  Tangle Wire
4  Smokestack

10 BOMBS
1  Imperial Seal
1  Vampiric Tutor
1  Demonic Tutor
1  Ancestral Recall
1  Tinker
1  Crop Rotation
1  Swords to Plowshares
1  Balance
1  Fastbond
1  Yawgmoth's Will
0  Thirst for Knowledge  The deck suffers from lack of draw, I realize.  It makes up for it with bomb spells that get you Stax/Cruicible.  I've also upped the Cruicible count.  I might have to change all this later on, though.  Honestly, I really have never seriously played 5c, and am very amateur in my build, most likely.  TfK is probably a necessary evil, because stuff like fastbond is amazing if you get it out at the right time, TfK is just good all the time.  Fastbond sucks if you draw it late in the game, and Yawg's will early, but not so with TfK.  I might have to reconsider.

16 SIDEBOARD
2  Darkblast
3  Red Elemental Blast
2  Seal of Cleansing
2  Tormod's Crypt
2  Viashino Heretic
2  Choke
3  Chalice of the Void

I don't know what one card I'd cut, honestly.  Probably a Seal of Cleansing, unfortunately.

Explainations:  Darkblast does Triskelion's Job fine, and I don't really feel that we need Titan in the deck.  I'd much rather have a bomb, like Fastbond.

You NEED 4 Cruicible.  It's the most important card in the deck aside Stax.

Karn as a single win condition, although recurring B-ring works, as well as welder beatdown.  I focused more on bomb spells than Chang did (which is the whole reason you play with FIVE COLORS), and this deck will have a better time against Uba than most everyone's build.

[Komatteru]

Your list doesn't have Imperial Seal, so it can't possibly be optimal.

[MoxMonkey]

Theres no reason to run 4 Welders if your not running 3-4 Thirst for knowledge.  Welder doesn't do anything usefull after number 2 or 3.  I cut the 4th Welder in Slaver cause I draw them to much and they dont do anything.  Without Thirst and Titans I dont see a reason to have more than 2 Welders.  If you like the 1 win condition thats fine but I would run Trik if i dont have null rod and probably a Razermane Masticore to Tinker for vs aggro for a fast win or a way to deal with their board.  Also cutting the 4th Gemstone mine is stupid because there the best Land you have Crucible + Gemstone is fun times but if you like 3 then sure I dont like Barb Ring i think its trash unless your running bazzars to hit threshold faster.

[Buttons]

I'm thinking about it more and more, and I think my build is just too Timmy.

"Yawg's Will and freaking Fastbond!  How could you NOT."  TfK is just a necessary evil.  I hate it, though.  It just seems like too much mana, and not enough result.

I don't like Titan, simply because he's a dead card in the mirror  (at least, alot more dead than Karn or Trisk), and in alot of other matchups as well.  Goblin Shaman never is, as well as cruicible.

I'll have to revise this.

I just play Uba because everything's so simple.  "Great, I got Uba + Workshop in my opening hand.  Look, Bazaar on the draw.  Great, I got cruicible.  Oh look, another Welder.  Fantastic."  There's never a bad card you draw.  EVER.  And you can draw constantly and consistently.

I don't see a reason to run 5c Stax over it, other than BOMB SPELLS, and the thing is, you can't utilize as many as you would like to, like Fastbond.  Sure, there's tutoring, but the thing is, you can't draw as much.  Card Advantage isn't abused in 5c Stax at all, and the hard lock isn't as easy to pull off.

In my mind, it's worse in almost every way.  *sigh*  I wish there were an EASY way to build 5c.

[Komatteru]

Uba Mask really sucks unless you have a way to abuse it.  In fact, I'm not convinced that it's even the focal point of Vroman's deck.  His Bazaars + Welders seem to do a good enough job on their own, as does Null Rod.

[Blitzbold]

I played 5c Stax to win a small (32 players) tournament in Berlin yesterday. I wasn't sure what to bring since I have had quite some success with Gifts, but since I also tinkered with 5c Stax recently I wanted to give it a shot. Thanks again to Kim Kluck (Shades) for helping to fine-tune the list shortly before the tournament.

This is the list I used:

4x Smokestack
3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Sphere of Resistance
3x Tangle Wire
1x Trinisphere
1x Karn, Silver Golem
1x Sundering Titan
1x Triskelion
4x Goblin Welder
1x Gorilla Shaman
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
3x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Tinker
1x Balance
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Crop Rotation
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Wasteland
1x God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Sol Ring

SB 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB 1 Ray of Revelation
SB 1 Darkblast
SB 1 In the Eye of Chaos
SB 2 Choke
SB 2 Rack and Ruin
SB 3 Chalice of the Void
SB 2 Duplicant
SB 2 Razormane Masticore

About the cards used:
1) The Meta at the Berlin tournaments was quite aggroish recently so I went with MD Tangle Wire and abondend the Chalices to the Board.

2) 28 Mana Sources w/o Barbarian Ring but including God's Eye. Hitting Threshold can indeed be a problem without using Bazaars. I tried and probably failed in building a 5c UbaStax (with 1 Bazaar which can be tutored for) and dropped the ring since then. Nevertheless, I like it and still try to incroporate it, but cutting a 5c land for it seems wrong. God's Eye on the other hand is a card I insist on using since shortly before the German Vintage Championships in August. (I did not use it in the mono-r Uba stax I played at that tournament because Rings fit better there.) With Smokestack and Crucible in play God's Eye either lets you produce an army of Spirits (and therefore doubles as a Wincondition) or support a Smokestack set to 2 for - well forever.

3) A single Seal of Cleansing was probably needed as I scouted 3 other Stax and also expected a good percentage of Oath (as always).

4) Sundering Titan still in the Deck. The reason for this is that I wanted a real mega nuke for the case I get to resolve Tinker against two- / multicolor decks. The Titan is also nice to be discarded for TfK and welded back in but which I did not do once through the tourney. I will probably cut it for a MD Duplicant.

5) 3 TfK + 4 Welders: I like to have some kind of draw in the deck. TfK was able to draw me out of an 'emptiness of threads' once in the tournament. I have to admit, though, that it is indeed a bit clunky. I might cut one Welder and Thirst each as people were well-prepared to fight the small red man. Sensei, Sensei not only boarded Darkblast but Engineered Plague as well so 3 Welders might be the right number to avoid running into such massive hate.

6) The Sideboard is tuned for the local meta. I think there isn't a single card which needs explanation.

I went 4-0-1 at the tournament, the draw being an ID against UR Stax in the fourth round (at 1-1 when we figured out which deck we probably had to face in the last round). Throughout the tournament I played against

round 1: scrubby UWr deck (2:0)
round 2: UW Landstill (2:1)
round 3: (fully powered) 5c RavagerAffinity (2:0)
round 4: ID with UR Stax
round 5: (partially powered - no Lotus I think) Sensei, Sensei (2:0)

The problem with German tournaments is that Proxy tournaments are more an excemption than the normal case. This is the reason why my list does not have an Imperial Seal, as those are hard to find in Europe. (It's also the reason why I did not play Grim Long  ).

Michael

[Godot]

While top is amazing, it becomes even more so as you add more shuffle effects, just like brainstorm.  I think the real question with it is whether or not it's good enough with the small amount of shuffle effects present in stax to drop a lock component to put it in the deck.

First off stax has several flexible slots that are not devoted to lock pieces.  Top would go in one of these slots it would not replace a lock piece.  Secondly, the fact that the deck only has ~6 shuffle effects is of little consequence.  The card lets you maximize each of your draw steps.  It reduces the number of turns you waste drawing through mana/threat clumps and this alone makes it worthwhile.

Null Rod is better for Stax to run in the metagame right now and Razermane deals with Welders.  I think you need Null rod to beat Slaver/Gifts and drain decks.

Ok, there are several issues with this statement, but overall 5c stax just can not support Null Rod w/out a major revision of both the maindeck and, especially, the sideboard.  Null Rod works in Uba Stax because the deck is built around the cost dodging synergy of Bazaar and Welder.  It is not as dependant on actually casting threats so it doesnt care if it shuts down half its manabase.  Furthermore, all the non-artifact cards in the deck, well except for Wheel, only cost R.  Because of these two points the deck can increase its reliance on Shop and run a powerful hoser like Null Rod.  5c stax casts its threats the hard way and so it can not afford shut off its moxen.  If you're going to employ the tutors and non-artifact threats then you absolutely need moxen to power out your threats--especially postboard when you bring in ever more colored spells.  If you are relying on land to his the 1X and 2X non shop mana thresholds you'll be wasting waaaaaaaay too much time.

MoxMonkey doesn't have the mana base support to be abused in Stax like he is in Slaver.  You want to be using your wastelands and tapping your color sources to set up tutors and lock pieces....You cannot sit back you need to be aggressive and be dropping threats turn after turn after turn while attack the manabase.

I think you completely miss half the reason why Shaman is so strong.  Shaman generates permanent advantage, which Null Rod does not--Shaman is itself a lock piece!  Hopefully my previous paragraph has illustrated to you why the bolded sentence is so wrong.  By running Null Rod over Shaman in 5c stax you reduce your ability be aggressive and drop threats while at the same time weakening the strength of Smokestack since you give your opponent more cheap permanents.

I don't see a reason to run 5c Stax over it

The biggest reason is that 5c stax has a stronger board plan against the field and a generally stronger game against combo and CS (this is assuming that the CS players will finally give Uba Stax enough respect to run actual effective hate against it).  That said though, at the moment I think your statement is true.

With Smokestack and Crucible in play God's Eye either lets you produce an army of Spirits (and therefore doubles as a Wincondition) or support a Smokestack set to 2 for - well forever.

Can we say 'win more' boys and girls?  Yeah, I knew you could.  Mucking up the manabase w/ a card that doesnt even provide a 1 shot of colored mana or taking up a non-mana slot for a win more card is seriously weak.

[vroman]

Uba Mask really sucks unless you have a way to abuse it.  In fact, I'm not convinced that it's even the focal point of Vroman's deck.  His Bazaars + Welders seem to do a good enough job on their own, as does Null Rod.

obv it depends on the matchup. against a fish deck that dropped an energy flux, for example, if I had a bevy of lock pieces out and could only pay rent on one, Id keep uba. against permission decks, uba sitting on the table by its lonesome, is an automatic huge prolonged swing in card advantage.

as for the focal pt of the deck, Id rather resolve crucible than almost anything else.

[Buttons]

I don't see a reason to run 5c Stax over it

The biggest reason is that 5c stax has a stronger board plan against the field and a generally stronger game against combo and CS (this is assuming that the CS players will finally give Uba Stax enough respect to run actual effective hate against it).  That said though, at the moment I think your statement is true.

I don't think I'm understanding what you're saying.  You're saying that Shaman is great and that it's better than Null Rod.  Okay.  In general, Uba runs MORE Shamans than 5c.

5c is alot better against CS, though.  That's obvious.

[Godot]

I don't think I'm understanding what you're saying.  You're saying that Shaman is great and that it's better than Null Rod.  Okay.  In general, Uba runs MORE Shamans than 5c.

5c is alot better against CS, though.  That's obvious.

Im saying that in 5c Stax Shaman is better because the manabase cant support Null Rod.  Null Rod will slow down your attack as well and you can really only break the symmetry by finding a Shop and increasing the decks reliance on Shop is obv not a good thing. I brought up Uba Stax just to explain why it(Null Rod) was good in that build, while not in 5c Stax.  That fact that Uba Stax has more Shamans than 5c has nothing to do with anything Im talking about.  Shaman is just generally amazing in all flavors of stax(well except Suppression field builds, but those suck).

[Blitzbold]

With Smokestack and Crucible in play God's Eye either lets you produce an army of Spirits (and therefore doubles as a Wincondition) or support a Smokestack set to 2 for - well forever.

Can we say 'win more' boys and girls?  Yeah, I knew you could.  Mucking up the manabase w/ a card that doesnt even provide a 1 shot of colored mana or taking up a non-mana slot for a win more card is seriously weak.

Ramping Smokestack to two is neccessary sometimes. Of course there is no need to support it forever, one can just sacrifice the Smokestack to itself when it is no longer needed. However, drawing / having a God's Eye when going for the Smokie @1 + Crucible lock is really great. It also does not muck up my manabase as I kept 4 copies each of the best 5c lands available. One can argue that playing an Ice Bridge instead of God's Eye would be better to further stabilize the manabase but I didn't have problems to cast my colored spells at all. Nevertheless I am still not sure about God's Eye, but not for taking a non-mana slot but rather for causing random mana flood.

[sean1i0]

I have to agree that Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai seems very much to be a win-more card.  I really can't see it filling in a land slot since it would just weaken your ability to play 5 colors and I would NEVER want to fill in a slot meant for a lock component, draw spell, broken spell, or anything else I may have forgotten with this card.  Imagine pulling a Gods' Eye instead of any one of those things.  The only time that could "good" is if you're already winning, in which case it doesn't matter that much anyway.  Even in that case, it would wholly better to pull almost anything else instead.  Just the way that I see it.

[Blitzbold]

I already admitted that God's Eye isn't that great at all. It has its benefits, though, and in my opinion seems to be better for 5c Stax than Barbarian Ring. This is even more true when the number of Thirsts is cut down or Thirsts are removed from the deck at all.

[vroman]

I already admitted that God's Eye isn't that great at all. It has its benefits, though, and in my opinion seems to be better for 5c Stax than Barbarian Ring. This is even more true when the number of Thirsts is cut down or Thirsts are removed from the deck at all.

go resurect mudstax. gate is probably broken in that. however in terms of 5c stax, bring is strictly better. the mana base is the weakest part of this deck. rekai makes the problem worse. any synergies it has w the locks is irevelent if it leaves you w dead broken colored cards. the mana issue is so important that I wouldnt even play bring (as much as I love the card) over a rainbow land. esp w the option of darkblast as recurable removal.

[Mox Sapphire]

What do you guys think of the following choices:

Nether Void- only drawback is its high mana cost and non-artifact nature.

Mox Diamond- card disadvantage without COW

Chrome Mox- shit

4th Crucible- debatable, but I think this is more necessary in uba stax. In 5cc stax, I think we should replace this with another bomb.

[sean1i0]

I agree with the statement about the 4th crucible.  I've never had a problem getting a crucible when I needed one with running 3 in 5c stax.  As for the other three cards, in stax they are all what you've labeled chrome mox as:  shit.  Mox diamond would seem to be okay, but remember the point that smmenen made about the card:  When you're in top deck mode, with an active smokestack and without a cow, mox diamond does not help you to support the smokestack.  It really doesn't help you at all unless it's in a certain type of opening hand, which just isn't enough.  And as for Nether Void, there's just no realistic way to consistently be able to play it in stax.

[Mox Sapphire]

What about Yawg Will there have been many arguments supporting and demoting this card. What is its role in stax? Yes, it supports an active smokestack greatly, but many say that it requires way too much non-artifact mana for it to function properly in stax. What does everyone think?

[PipOC]

What about Yawg Will there have been many arguments supporting and demoting this card. What is its role in stax? Yes, it supports an active smokestack greatly, but many say that it requires way too much non-artifact mana for it to function properly in stax. What does everyone think?

Unless your metagame is saturated with combo or oath, there's no reason at all not to play it.  There are situations where you'd rather see something else, but those are far outweighed by the times it will win for you.

[vroman]

in this day and age, certain blanket statements can be made about vintage decks in general and stax in particular. if you have black mana, you must run yawg will and darkblast. if you run green, crop rotation. if you run red, moxmonkey + welder and heretic in board. if you are playing workshops at all, chalicex4 is a must.