Perfecting 5c stax build

[Mox Sapphire]

With the recent successes of stax, it may be important for the vintage community at large to admit its power of what was once thought to be weak. Ubastax is no exception. However, I believe that the best stax build is still going to be of the 5cc variation due to its large base of broken sorceries at its disposal. I have been tinkering around with a variation of existing stax lists and have made the following changes to Roland's deck, which I believe to be the best as of yet.

Chalice MD: This card is too much of a powerhouse even if the stax player is not on the draw. The mana curves of most decks seem to be at around 1-2, so if it cannot stop moxes on the play, there are plenty more threats it can hold on its own.

Fastbond: Sick on its own, crazy with crucible.

4th TFK: TFK makes goblin welder playable, and not vice versa. Simply, the draw power of 3 TFK's is not enough.

Loss of tangle wire: This card is trash against most competitive decks. Does not do anything against CS, nor gifts.

Currently, I am trying to fit in a 2nd Swords to Plowshares, but I do not have enough deckspace for it. The deck's main weakness is oath 1st game.

Loss of a crucible: 3 crucibles is excessive. I got tired of drawing a dead one after I had 1 or two already in play. 2 seems to be the more optimum number than 3, or even 4 as I have seen in some builds.


1   Barbarian Ring
4   City of Brass
3   Gemstone Mine
4   Mishra's Workshop
1   Strip Mine
1   Tolarian Academy
4   Wasteland
   
3   Goblin Welder
1   Gorilla Shaman
1   Karn, Silver Golem
1   Triskelion
1   Sundering Titan
   
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Balance
1   Black Lotus
1   Crop Rotation
2   Crucible of Worlds
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Mana Crypt
1   Mana Vault
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Sapphire
4   Smokestack
1   Sol Ring
1   Swords to Plowshares
1   Tinker
1   Trinisphere
1   Vampiric Tutor
4   Chalice of the Void
4   Thirst for Knowledge
3   Sphere of Resistance
1   Fastbond
   
   Sideboard:
   Swords to Plowshares
   Choke
   Jester's Cap
   Red Elemental Blast
   Seal of Cleansing
   Tormod's Crypt
   Viashino Heretic

Decklist made legible. Next time, please don't post these weird comma separated values or excel columns or whatever the hell it was you did. The formatting was awful, and contained heaps of info noone needs (like 'card type', 'color' and 'mana cost'). This is Vintage Open, not an mtg tutorial....   - Bram

Also, my PM told you to clean it up yourself or you'd get a warning, so you get a warning.
-Jacob


I have also been thinking about adding in RNR MD or maybe an e-truth or tormod's. Please discuss what you think in addition to the strengths and weaknesses of the deck as of yet.

[Buttons]

Your decklist seems to be a set of solid, defensive answers.

It's a very unique 5c Stax build.  I congratulate you very strongly on this build, and I think it has an enormous amount of potential:

However, you're going to have problems with Uba.  Not like 5c doesn't already, but WHY do you only run TWO Cruicible?  They are FAR too good to only run two.

I understand you have alot of tutoring, but you should at least run THREE.  Uba is currently running 4, which I believe to be the correct number for any Stax build.  They're just too good.  If you draw doubles, it's fine.  Because:

A)  If you really need to, you can pitch it to TFK,
B)  You can hold it back in case they destroy your first,
C)  You can just play it and use it as Stax feed,
D)  Goblin Welder

Furthermore, why are you ONLY running THREE Welder?

Also, it seems like you don't have as much synergy as Chang's build.

Tangle Wire/Sphere o' Resistance is a HOUSE.

Chalice/Sphere o' Resistance is not so synergistic.

Futhermore, where's your Darkblast on your SB?  You can run black, so you should be running this card to help you combat UbaStax.

[49 Cents]

I have some comments:

Fastbond: Sick on its own, crazy with crucible.

So why only play 2 Crucible?

4th TFK: TFK makes goblin welder playable, and not vice versa. Simply, the draw power of 3 TFK's is not enough.

TFK is a great card but if you go Sphere, Go it costs 3U. That means 4 lands / moxes that are not Workshop. This can be difficult IMO.

Loss of tangle wire: This card is trash against most competitive decks. Does not do anything against CS, nor gifts.

That is NOT true. I have won a whole lot of games due to Tangle Wire. Like Chang said, if they go Island - go, you can just drop Tangle Wire and they won't have Drain online until turn 3/4.. And if they Tinker out Colossus you can just drop Tangle Wire and stall until you've found a Tutor for Balance / StP.

Currently, I am trying to fit in a 2nd Swords to Plowshares, but I do not have enough deckspace for it. The deck's main weakness is oath 1st game.

I would rather play Imperial Seal.

Loss of a crucible: 3 crucibles is excessive. I got tired of drawing a dead one after I had 1 or two already in play. 2 seems to be the more optimum number than 3, or even 4 as I have seen in some builds.

Some people play 4 because this card is extremely important. It makes Smokestack sooo much better, and with 4 tutors the chance to find Strip Mine is huge. At the moment I play only 3 but I find myself in too many situation where I need to tutor for Crucible rather then just tutor for Strip Mine. I'm sure 2 is at least 1 too less.

Edit: Button beat me to it.

[Juggernaut GO]

cut the swords to plowshares, put it in your sideboard.   Cut karn and triskelion. cut 1 wasteland

add the following cards, and get ready to make every top 8 of every tournament you go to...

+2 null rod
+1 duplicant
+1 gemstone mine


run at least 3 STP in your board to help with aggro matchups.  Also, 2 viashino heretic will help you out greatly in your stax mirror, and your null rod will pwn them.


I would also cut the demonic tutor and add a 2nd gorilla shaman.  You want to be able to tutor at instant speed, not demonic, then wait a turn to play what you demonic'd for  even if it was strip mine.

And I agree that tangle wire is shit.  Also, if you grow some balls you can always cut the useless chalices all together and run march of the machines monkey cage minds eye and possessed portal, but thats me.

wow, I might actually have to build that for rochester, I think i just got wood.  Of course, then it wouldnt be much different then the deck I played to win waterbury.

and 3 welder is more then enough for any stax deck, if you run 4, it just helps you block goblin lackey better.

to address the 2 crucible issue, the deck draws enough cards where it can find a crucible in time to do what it's supposed to do.

2 is the correct amount.  Sure, a deck like uba stax wont care if it draws extra because it needs extra cards to discard to bazaar.  You don't get an uba mask in play EVERY game.

[Mox Sapphire]

Why should more crucibles be added? I do not understand. Why the sudden inclusion of null rods in almost every build? I have found this to be quite disruptive to my own plan. Why no karn? Why only 3 wastelands?

These pieces of advice all go against conventional wisdom. Someone please explain.

[mr_rogers]

I don't think you need Chalice of the Void.  Chalice in my testing has only really won me games against storm combo decks.  I have cut chalice to run more crucibles(which I too believe 4 is the right number) and a couple more tutors/main deck anwsers.  You want 4 crucibles in the deck because you want one in every opening hand. I know from my testing I want to play shop, mox, stack......next turn CoW.  That is my ideal first turn against most decks.  I also really like shop-> CoW on the first turn.  My question would be what kind of openings do you want that crucible would not be good in?  You are only running 2 so you first couple turn plays must be different than mine. 

Well hope this helps some.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

3 Crucible is the right number. The thing to remember is that you have a SHIT manabase, and crucible is your saving grace. I always want to see it in my opening hand (or a way to get it). Also, as others have mentioned, it IS part of the lock. Welder is cute and all, but stax+crucible is house.

I personally believe 3 chalice is the way to go. Read Smmenen's article on stax and Cron's philosophies. You want diversity of threats. On the play, a sphere of resistance/chalice/shaman are functionally the same; they slow your opponent down. You often times draw 2 chalice and it's just a dead card. setting it at 1 will wreck your welders/shaman/tutors, and at 2, you shut off your sphere of resistance, which is a huge threat against mana drains.

As far as null rod goes, I don't think the pros outweigh the cons. With 5c stax, you rely on 2-3cc colored threats to disrupt your opponent. This means you'll actually need your moxes. Every mox you draw in 5cStax is AMAZING. Plus, with spheres and such, you'll actually need the mana off-color moxes produce. Between chalice and shaman, I think you have enough hate towards opposing accelleration. Shaman has the added bonus of giving you permanent advantage.

Tangle wire is a very tricky card. If you can cast it before the opponent has UU, it's absolutely amazing. The problem is, it's not very good in the stax mirror. It doesn't actually produce permanent advantage in the way stax, crucible does. That being said, I think it's a metagame call.

Thirst for knowledge has always seemed weak to me. Stax doesn't want to draw cards (nevertheless pay 3 non-shop mana to do so), it wants to lock you up. keeping 3 non-shop mana around is basically wasting a turn no dropping a lock piece. If you want to play a deck to abuse welder, play uba stax. You have a 5cmanabase for  reason: tutors. I cannot stress how good tutors are in stax. In a deck without card draw, the ability to see the one card you want is HUGE. I would not consider playing 5c stax without vamp/demonic/seal/crop rotation. If you take out Tfk, Titan looks a lot less appealing.

-Bob

[Wollblad]

I mostly agree with what has already been said about Thirst and Crucible and Null Rod does not pull its weight in this deck. I would also like to add some things.

Regarding the mana base, I was sick and tiered of getting hit by City and to see my Gemstone Mines dissappear. I tinkered with several different land configurations and has settled for the following base for colored mana:
1 Tolarian Academy
5 Moxen
1 Lotus
3 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Tendo Ice bridge
1 Shivan Reef
1 Barbarian Ring
1 more colored source of your choice
(I have 28 mana sources in total)
I'm currently trying Mox Diamond in the last slot, but I'm not sure if I'm going to keep it. The philosophy here is that Tendo basically is a Gemstone that stays. You cannot replace all Gemstones because then you're doomed after sideboard. Most of your spells are either blue or red hence, you can replace one city with Shivan Reef without getting colored screwed.

One thing more. Use at least two copies of In the Eye of Chaos in your sideboard. It absolutely houses storm decks.

[Sean Ryan]

I generally agree with the Cron/Smennen philosophy on 5cStax, however, sometimes the metagame doesn't agree.

For example, the Chang build was able to deal with a resolved Colossus much better than CronStax.  Currently Oath has reappeared and must be considered during deck construction.
JuggernautGo has had success with some very unorthodox builds by good metagaming.

Regardless of the meta, I agree with Clownoftresserhorn, tutors are a must in 5c Stax.  When you build Stax with this assumption in mind it leaves you with about 10 spots to work with.

Here is what I beleive to be the core to 5c Stax:

1 DT
1 VT
1 ISeal
1 CRotation
1 Will
1 Balance
1 Tinker
1 A. Recall

4 Smokys
3 Crucible
1 Trini

2-3 Welder
1-2 GShaman
1 Karn
1 Trike/Dup

27-28 Mana sources
*************************

Using this core as a starting pointyou have to choose an assortment of lock peices, possibly draw, and/or bombs.

Sphere o Resistance
Chalice
Tangle Wire
Null Rod
In the Eye

Fastbond
Swords
TfK & other draw
Titan
************************************

SoR is a no brainer at 3 or 4

Tangle Wire - definitly the weakest lock by itself, but it answers some of the most prevalant threats (Oath/Colossus) in this metagame until you can establish a real lock.  I must disagree with Clown that Wire is no good in the mirror.  On the contrary, it hurts Stax b/c. everything you cast is a permanant which cannot be evaded during the upkeep.  In the mirror I would side out Spheres before Wire.

Chalice - I'm really on the fence with this card.  I haven't had much success with Null Rod in 5c builds for the reasons Clown stated, and post SB its a joke b/c of all colored mana you need.  Chalice for 2 is much better than at 1 right now and with Oath around should be considered for this alone. 

What about running all 3 artifacts as 3 ofs under the idea of threat diversity?  That wouldn't leave any room for TfK and its tag along Titan, but those cards are debatable to begin with.

I would like to hear mmore arguments for and against Fastbond.  I love the card but its always the 59th or 60th consideration.

Has any one else tried Sacred ground for the mirror?

Thanks

Sean 

[mr_rogers]

I would like to hear mmore arguments for and against Fastbond.  I love the card but its always the 59th or 60th consideration.

Fastbond is amazing in stax for many reasons.  If even once or twice you get the opening of 5c land--->Fastbond----> drop mws----> CoW, play strip/waste.  Fastbond is also awsome in the later game with CoW out, creating an instant srtip/waste lock.  For these reasons and I'm sure there are more people can point out I would never cut Fastbond from 5cSTAX.

[vroman]

holy shit, monkey cage?! this is better than swords or duplicant?

fastbond = double plus good. I would always find room for it in 5cstax. though Im thinking more of the immense bazaar+crucible synergy. maybe throwing in 1 bazaar to crop for? I do so love bazaar. if you play sufficient crucibles, fastbond is strictly better than sacred ground

manabase: icebridge sucks. theres sooo many colored cards in this deck. you dont want single use mana. if your unhappy w brass and gemstone, cut it to 2c or 3c and run duals and fetches.

Id avoid nrod in a deck where you need moxes for colored mana.

play darkblast main. best welder kill ever.

forget TFK.

time walk is always broken. stax CAN use this card. play smoky, walk, get a soot, pass. brilliant.

run at most one artifact that costs above 5. TFK+welder is not a very reliable way to cheat stuff into play wo mana drain+brainstorm. if you play too many big guys you are overly reliant on workshop/tinker. personaly Id play nothing more costly than karn or razorface.

mox diamond is not an option

tangle wire is just weak. its only good in really tuned tempo like red deck wins

sphere of resistance is a powerhouse. it cripples the efficiency of decks like CS. play 4

even though you cant abuse crucible as well as ubastax, running 4 is still a sizable advantage in the stax mirror. definitely consider the full set.

chalice is great bc its a free bonus lock on the play. chalice @ 1 nearly ruins CS, esp if you can drop a welder first. chalice is vulnerable but its really good. I will always play 4.

sacred ground is overrated. just play artifact destruction and KILL the thing thats chewing up your lands, and have the ability to kill other artifacts that have nothing to do w your lands.

[Juggernaut GO]

Monkey cage is the most broken artifact in vintage...  Pretty soon star city is going to be selling foil monkey cages at $ 50 bucks dude.  Jump on the band wagon now !
This is spam.
-Jacob

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Vroman, have you tested Walk at all? With all the non-stax lock pieces 5cStax runs now-a-days, I can see some merit in running a walk.

I've been thinking of a tranformational SB of Oath. Think about it. You side it in vs. the mirror/aggro instead of rack/heretic and you win the SB war. Stax mirrors tend to be long, and winning games 2 and 3 quickly is something to take into account. My current list has 2 Tops main (which are pretty amazing), so drawing akroma/spirit isn't too much of an issue. Oath is a 2cc threat that helps out in random matchups like FCG. With the transformational SB, Time walk sounds better and better.

-Bob

[Bram]

Clown: regardless of other lock pieces, it's still primarily a smokestack deck. Time Walk can obviously save the day in some situations, but not like in a deck that can actually get a Colossus, for example. I don't see myself cutting anything from my list for it.

My list is slightly different from this one. I'll explain.

-1 barbarian ring
+1 gemstone mine

I have literally never used ring as a recursion kill. Against Welders it's potentially good (and God knows you need something against Control Slaver...) but in reality, I've only very rarely used it. The damage it does, combined with the fact that it only makes red mana, heavily offsets the possibility of blowing up a random Welder relatively late in the game (threshold takes longer to achieve than one would think).

-1 sundering titan
+1 duplicant

While Titan has its merits, I find that I can reliably kill my opponents' manabase without it. In a metagame where everyone who runs blue can Tinker for Colossus like the one I'm in, a maindeck Duplicant often saves the day.

-1 fastbond
+1 crucible

To be honest, I've never tested Fastbond in this deck. Have to try it out sometime. I have my doubts, but I'm not one to trash an idea before trying it. Cutting the third crucible seems...scary. It's such an important lock piece in this deck. And I'm not altogether sure you even need this little combo. But I'm willing to try it.

-1 thirst for knowledge
+1 choke

Thirsts are cool, but three is enough, in my opinion. Early on, you want to utilise your mana to the max anyway buy dropping lock components. In my experience, TFK is used most often for drawing a win condition faster once you've already got a lock out. If you play in a heavy Gifts meta, the maindeck Choke really works miracles. It ups your turn 1 win percentage like you wouldn't believe. While popular opinion lists the Stax - Gifts matchup at 50-50, I can tell you that I am no longer afraid of Gifts. I have yet to lose a tournament match to the deck with my Stax build (three tourneys, once 1st place, once T8, and once 6-2 in a 177 man tourney). The absolute uselessness of the card against most other decks is offset by the fact that it singlehandedly owns what might be the best deck in the format.

On your sideboard:

I pulled off the Jester's Cap thing once in a tournament. Against Gifts, I mulled to 6 into a Jester's Cap I sided in for the heck of it and was able to play and activate it turn 1. GG. I took it out of the board afterwards, since you really shouldn't be siding it in vs. Gifts anyway. You're stuck with a SB slot you only use against *some* combo, and one that doesn't even assure you a win when you draw it. It's not a bad card, but it's not worth the slot.

Sometimes, I prefer the following maindeck setup:

-4 Chalice of the Void
+3 Tangle Wire
+1 Gorilla Shamen

I realise this is a fundamental difference. I tend to go with Wires in large tournaments with an unknown metagame where I expect (and fear) a lot off random aggro. It'll usually stall them just enough to allow you to do your thing. (mind you: the second Gorilla Shamen isn't an aggro solution. It's there because it's wicked good against Control Slaver. I only have 3 'chalice / wire' slots in my build). This means I need 3 Chalices in my board, however. My board for the Open Dutch Vintage Championships looked like this:

3   Chalice of the Void
3   Red Elemental Blast
2   Choke
3   Seal of Cleansing
2   Viashino Heretic
2   Razormane Masticore

Again, Razormane is for random aggro and Fish. And boy, is it ever good. Your whole deck changes strategy, but who cares? You're winning a difficult matchup. All cards except Heretic have been spectacular. Heretic is good in theory, but somehow, I never really got to use it. I either don't draw it, or it dies before I can activate it. I'm currently thinking of different solutions for the mirror etc.

[rvs]

Again, Razormane is for random aggro and Fish. And boy, is it ever good. Your whole deck changes strategy, but who cares? You're winning a difficult matchup.

Actually, Razormane should also be sided in in the stax mirror. It might seem bad, but after trying it out, it is really strong. A lot stronger than we originally thought.

[sean1i0]

Bram, I notice that you said you bring in tangle wire when you expect a lot of random aggro.  In the past with Stax, that has been the only way I've had of winning against aggro, but am now trying a few other things in my deck (2xDuplicant, 1xTriskelion, 1xKarn + regular lock components).  I was wondering, what does everyone think about that?  What's your plan versus random, but good aggro?

[Bram]

Bram, I notice that you said you bring in tangle wire

Please note that I don't actually board Tangle Wires. It's just that of I expect a lot of random aggro, I play them maindeck and have Chalices in the board. I'm no great Tangle Wire fan; in high powered metagames I tend to run Chalice main. In that case, no Wires will be in my board. My plan against good aggro would then be: "There is no good aggro."


...


That's ofcourse nonsense, though. Good aggro (at least in my meta) is pretty rare however, and I have no specific plans against such decks. I consider good (or at least decent) aggro to be decks like Raffinity, Orlove's dreidel.dec and possibly some fish or wtf-type builds. Running Chalices main frees up some slots in your sideboard, so that you can dedicate it partially to dealing with decent aggro. In game one, you'll need your Balance to work miracles for you. Fortunatly, I run 2 Tutors, making that particular silver bullit a little more consistent.

My creature base is similar to yours. I run 1x Duplicant, 1x Triskelion and 1x Karn, plus 2 Gorilla Shamens and 3 Welders. The second Duplicant is unneccesary in my experience. It's not the best of the win conditions.

[Wudil]

I've been toying and playing with 5c Stax for a moment now and I've tried many different configurations of Stax.

I've finally found that B-ring without BoB is quite useless as it gets threshold too late, the fact that I dropped TfK some times ago confort me in this position.
I simply switched back the 4th Gemstone Mine in this place and was happy to say that I didn't have any colored mana issues since then.

Tangle Wire. The weakest lock of Stax. I should say that without any other lock component, this is right. BUT this card lets you avoid Mana Drain and is a must counter when playing Controle type decks. If not, he will likely look at you resolving every lock you try to except from a lone or 2 FoW's around there which would deplete the complete hand of the controle player.
Against Stax, this is also a house, the opponent simply can't resolve any of his threats since all of them are permanents type. You just have to gain some board advantage by beginning first or destroying opponent's permanents with G-Shaman, Crucible + Wasteland or Smokestack...
Against aggro, this is the card you want to see to gain time against FCG, Rafinity, Fish and so on in order to touch your bomb which can be Razorman Masticore (My preferred from far) or other things like Pyroclasm, Balance and so on...
Against pure Combo, this is also a really good card since he's like a controle deck, he can't win under it if there is another pressure with it otherwise it will gain you some turns to make this pressure.

I've tested fastbond and even if it can accelerate your outs or let you abuse it with Crucible PLUS Stripmine/Wasteland (which is quite enough by themselves), I always preferred it to be a real component lock or a tutor... I've removed it then and it doesn't miss me at all.

Crucible of Worlds. This card is a MUST. Of course, it lets you recurse cards like stripmine/wastelands or BoB, B-Ring in case you play it and have Threshold, but this card helps you so much to upgrade your worst ever manabase by letting you replay your Gemstone Mine and avoid opponent Land Disruption. Also, this is of course a really nice added component with a Stax in the place. This is of course THE card you want to see in a mirror also.
Any Stax player should then play at least 3 CoW if not 4. I've tried 2 to 4 configuration and since I went to 4, I didn't change it since getting a Crucible is always a good card to get even if you already have one in hand or on the board as said before.

Stax IS the card you have to play to swap the board, this is the best removal to everything you have and it can't be replaced. The fact that it's a bit slow always obliged me to play 4 of them in order to touch it asap.

I've tried SoR with the 3sphere and sometimes, it locked me too under it while my computer was also locked and lost some games due to it since he could play his coloured spells easier than me. I think it depends more of the metagame or at least should be in the sideboard to help against Combo.

The last things I've played with in the maindeck were Chains of Mephistopheles and In the Eyes of Chaos and even if this is good to have components not touched my artifact removal, these locks are hard to play "normally" but they're even harder (ITEOC being the worst of them of course) under your own component locks like SoR or CoTV at 0 with no acceleration on the board. Finally, the fact that you can't recurse them with your own welders and that they're useless against random.dec told me that I wouldn't want them in the maindeck, only in the sideboard or maybe with a metagame really well known (which is always hard to guess) and good pairings (my last tournament bering Dutsch Champ and paired against Elves, Goblins consecutively in the 2 first rounds... *sigh*)

Null Rod VS Chalice of the Void. The fact that I'm not lucky and nearly never got the first turn CoTV for 0 with some or even with none acceleration helped me a lot to decide between both of them. I also hated not being able to laid some "dead" moxen to sacrifice, tap or exchange on the board... Then, when you get a Chalice later, you simply can't play it for 1 as it shuts down 1/3 of your deck, 2 is maybe the best set up but you also have to guess against which deck you're playing and not that easy to pay for, not speaking about 3 as it shuts down half of your deck even if it shuts down opponent Tinker ,Y-Win, Rebuilds or C-Wishes...
I've finally switched the triskel for Razormane Masticore which was always pure gold in every occasion since it take care of weenies of course but also got first strike and can kill in 4 turns max which isn't that bad too. The discard ability was finally more useful than anything else since I'm not playing BoB or TfK...

Finally, the card that none of you spoke of is Yawgmoth's Will. I tested it and immediately loved it. When you don't really need it, it simply gets you at least 1 land, 1 lock and 1 tutor or something like that, not bad at all to secure your initial lock. But when you're in a bad moon, this is PURE gold. I was acting like if I was playing my TPS counting mana and every possibility I got, soooooo great card and with the tutors, a must !!

As I couldn't get my hands on an Imperial Seal, I've tried the Enlightened Tutor and it was also really good being able to get you a Black Lotus to cast enchantments card or every lock you have in your library, really nice to replace it.

I tried March of the Machines but was really disappointed with it since it's most of the time a dead card in hand, even in a deck not playing with SoR... When it resolve, yes it can accelerate your kill by some turns but even if I was comparing it to Karn (couldn't play it since I was playing Null Rods), this was simply inferior to it.

I think the balance maindeck isn't that great. Stax player got quite many creatures to play with and not being able to take care of the Colossus or anything on the board due to this is scary. Also, I've tried and resolved some fast balance in order to deny many cards in an opponent's hand (last I did was against Carsten B Kötter, a really good European player who was playing Gifts but he could come back even with some locks on the board...) but it doesn't really make the cut and I prefer from far a targeted removal such as Swords to Plowshare. It helped me a lot instead of Balance.

Just my 2cts

[JDawg13]

I think the balance maindeck isn't that great. Stax player got quite many creatures to play with and not being able to take care of the Colossus or anything on the board due to this is scary. Also, I've tried and resolved some fast balance in order to deny many cards in an opponent's hand (last I did was against Carsten B Kötter, a really good European player who was playing Gifts but he could come back even with some locks on the board...) but it doesn't really make the cut and I prefer from far a targeted removal such as Swords to Plowshare. It helped me a lot instead of Balance.

I would never, ever consider cutting Balance from Stax.  The number of games that I've won simply on the back of playing a 1st turn Balance as Mind Twist is simply astounding.  Add to that the fact that it can reset the board to a manageable state if you are being overwhelmed (by creatures against, say, Shop Aggro or by card advantage against something like Gifts) and I come to the conclusion that Balance definitely deserves to be played in Stax; it is simply too flexible and too bomby to not play.

My board for the Open Dutch Vintage Championships looked like this:

3   Chalice of the Void
3   Red Elemental Blast
2   Choke
3   Seal of Cleansing
2   Viashino Heretic
2   Razormane Masticore

Again, Razormane is for random aggro and Fish. And boy, is it ever good. Your whole deck changes strategy, but who cares? You're winning a difficult matchup. All cards except Heretic have been spectacular. Heretic is good in theory, but somehow, I never really got to use it. I either don't draw it, or it dies before I can activate it. I'm currently thinking of different solutions for the mirror etc.

I like the looks of this sideboard Bram, particularly the use of Razormane Masticore, who seems like he could be a great way to swing the Shop Aggro matchup to your favor.  If you're looking for something that's great in the mirror and can also be handy in other matchups, try fitting in 3 Blue Elemental Blasts.  They kill opposing Welders and Heretics, and can take care of Rack and Ruin should your opponent play it.  Basically, it's a solid way of stopping an opposing Stax player's sideboard plan against you.  This strategy is somewhat backwards to the typically proactive Stax mentality, but if you can be flexible in your gameplan, I think they can be pretty solid.

[vroman]

I would play ray of revelation over seal of cleansing.
also yawgwill is an autoinclude.

[Edward]

first: add glimmervoid for a better manabase

second: maybe run 1 gilded drake maindeck, u can tutor it at the time opponent gets a DC on table. (nice against oath also)
this way u turn lose in win

last: Im not a fan of ToK, if u want more stuff in your graveyard maybe try careful study?

btw I love 5cc

sorry for my broken english
 

[JDawg13]

I would play ray of revelation over seal of cleansing.
also yawgwill is an autoinclude.

I tend to disagree with Yawgmoth's Will being an auto-include, only because it is absolutely terrible when you want to be setting up the lock in the early game.  Yes, I'll agree with it being awesome late game and that it is worth consideration, but it does have advantages and disadvantages that a person needs to weighed before determing whether or not to run it.  I just don't think you can call it an auto-include and leave it at that.

[Thug]

I'm a little suprised no-one mentioned Hurkyl's Recall so far.
It's an answer to DSC, it can bounce opponent artifact mana that they slipped through, to either slow them down because they have to pay for Sphere again. But it gets even better when you got chalice, you bounce everything they dropped before the Chalice and they can't drop it anymore.

Personally I would run Chalice over Wire
Draw-sevens and Compulsive research over Thirst
At most 1 artifact that costs more than 4
Probably no Tinker
Only 1 Welder to tutor for
At least 2 Shaman
At least 3 crucible
At least 1 Choke
At least 1 H. Recall (H. Recall followed by draw-seven counts for style points)
And consider a single Divining Top

But I guess I tuned it against the top decks, if you want to win against other decks, play with more welder and even Wires.

Koen

[Bram]

Interesting. Except I would NEVER cut Tinker. It's still solid gold. I've often tinkered for lock components for the win. My first reaction to Compulsive Research was: why would I use a worse TFK? I guess it's at least kind of interesting since you almost never want to play it EOT anyway so it doesn't really matter that it's a sorcery. You still run more artifacts than land, though, and even though the synergy with Crucible is definitely there, I'm afraid it'll cut down my Welder efficiency (sometimes I just want 1 artifact and the yard and 1 in the hand, you know?).

Compulsive research (as well as Top and Recall) I'm willing to try, but never over Tinker.

[vroman]

I would cut tinker in welderless stax, but Ive given up on that deck.
re: yawgwill. Ive made this argument before. yawgwill is the most broken card in the game. true this is not the best deck to abuse it in, but at worst its going to be like a triple regrowth which is perfect in the permanent race. its not a good early game play, but if it gets you atleast 4 cards, then its better than ancestral.

divining top is not good in a deck wo fetches. the welder trick is clever, but not broken enough to warrant this inclusion.
compulsive research and careful study are crap.
glimmervoid is too risky. brass and gemstone remain the only viable rainbow lands.

[Liam-K]

I wouldn't be cutting tinker.  I don't think you can justify cutting a card that reads "go get whatever you want and put it into play" especially when you're already depending on tutors.  At worst you lose something you needed less.

[Juggernaut GO]

Sensei divining top is such a hot card in a deck that doesnt run crap like brainstorms.  lets you find what you need every turn, thats the shit right there.  Look at Jacob's workshop  deck from richmond, he love that card long time.  I am definitely coming around on it, and I run at least one in every deck i play that doesnt run null rod.  Adding to the fact that the welder draw a card deal actually works,  it's not a bad draw engine

[forests failed you]

He's so right.  Top is fucking hot beyond all belief.
I haven't tested it to a point where I've been completely happy with a build yet, but I'm still convinced deep down that Orb of Dreams belongs in Stax.  I just know it!

[vroman]

dream ball is worse than tanglewire, and tangle is itself inferior.
how many tops would you play?

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Top is pretty amazing a 1cc permanent that gives stax card quality. I'd personally run 2, as the synergy between vamp/seal and top is pretty amazing.

I still don't see the point in running draw in stax. Thirst costs 3 non-shop mana. It seems like a HUGE tempo loss if you're wasting your turn casting it. If you're casting it after you drop your lock pieces, it seems like a win more card. I'll repeat what I said before about tutors, the ability to find the one card you want for 1 or 2 mana is invaluable. I don't want to just draw cards, I want to find the one that matters.

-Bob