December 1

[Godder]

I agree with Veggies, especially about the Goblins - they win on turn 4, and for every turn 3 win, there's a turn 5 or above win. If it was a combo deck, nobody would be complaining (much), so I just see complaints about Goblins being sour grapes.

[Fubar]

How could they justify bannings in legacy based on secondary value?  Doesn't wizards not have any hand in this market?
I though they were interested in maintaining the high value of older cards, banning say time vault or berserk would hurt said card's values.  I thought the reprint list was evidence of them trying to curry collector's favour by maintaining price. 
That being said, in several articles they have given the impression that legacy is the "affordable and accessible" eternal format. 
If wizard's goal is to have a happy customer base, ie. not piss off their market, then comming up with questionable (read: bullshit) bannings is contradictory.
I think the heart of the matter with regards to older cards avaliable in eternal formats is the reprint list.  It clearly hamstrings the growth of these formats and will always lead to haves and have nots.
Of course this is all based on assumptions that they give a shit on earth what players of eternal formats care for.  We will never be their cash cow, and exist to supplement "real magic" (ie boosters and boxes).  Sometimes I feel that the only reason we get any degree of support is so that there is a function for older cards, thus making sinking mad cash into cards not compleatly pointless.

[Moxlotus]

The did list price as one of the reasons Mask and Bazaar were gone.

[SpencerForHire]

Legacy is a budget vintage to be sure.  There was worry at one point that Duals would be banned from price.  That was an exageration however Vault is not.  It reached the heights of 100 bucks easy. 

[Godder]

They did list price as one of the reasons Mask and Bazaar were gone.

Here's the original article that created Legacy and its banned list, along with the rationale behind what was on that original list. Of particular note is the following quote:

Dominant cards that have been considered for restriction in Vintage:
Here's where the list departs from what it was previously. Some cards exist at power levels that are on the brink of acceptability for even Vintage, which makes them dominant in “Type 1.5.� Worldgorger Dragon, Bazaar of Baghdad, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Drain, and Illusionary Mask all fit into this category. Note, too, that the power level of many of these cards, combined with their scarcity, presented a major barrier to entry to the format for many players.

Since price is dictated by demand and scarcity, we can assume that price of cards is a factor, albeit not a major factor. That's why cards like Moat and The Abyss aren't banned, but if Time Vault becomes a major part of the metagame, and I figure a 5R, 2 card infinite damage combo will be there or thereabouts, even if we haven't yet found the right deck for it, then scarcity may well be the tipping point. Rather than muck around now, I think giving Time Vault the boot now would save people time (heh), money and annoyance by removing it as a consideration sooner rather than later.

[Beatdown]

I could see regrowth getting unrestricted. With fork and mind over matter they unrestricted cards that aren't very good by themselves. Besides they just reprinted a regrowth with legs for an extra G. I think it and key are the most likely targets for unrestriction.

[PacmanXSA]

I think that there could/should be a pile of unrestrictions in Vintage.  Some could really, potentially, shake up the format.

Basic unrestrictions:

Voltaic Key
Frantic Search
Personal Tutor (I don't find the power level of this card to be high enough, although they seem intent on restricting all cheap/effective tutors)

Interresting unrestrictions (While unlikely):

Dream Halls
Fact Or Fiction
Black Vise
Library Of Alexandria
Time Spiral

Either way, I doubt they'd unrestrict more than one card at a time.  I don't see anything getting the axe right now; at least in Vintage.

Pac

[Dozer]

Personal Tutor (I don't find the power level of this card to be high enough, although they seem intent on restricting all cheap/effective tutors)

Three words: Four Friggin' Tinkers. Highly unlikely, in my opinion. With PT, VT, DT, MT and Imperial Seal in the mix, none of the Tutors will be unrestricted as long as Tinker and Will are around. And those two are here to stay.

The other unrestrictions could actually work. Dream Halls, Time Spiral, Voltaic Key, and Frantic Search all look possible in my book. LoA, Vise and FoF are not likely to be freed from their chains. Unrestricting FoF would rock the format, though, but less so than Black Vise. On the other hand, Vise and FoF could cancel each other out - but that's such a sky-high risk to take that my guess remains: no changes.

Dozer

[orgcandman]

...
Frantic Search
...
{other busted cards}

I can see voltaic key being unrestricted, but Frantic Search?! Are you insane? Combo would have to find a reason NOT to run 4 of them.

Also, Dream Halls, FoF, Black Vise, LOA, and Spiral are all deserving of restriction. I don't see any of these being unrestricted.

[vroman]

what the hell is so great about black vise? is this mana acceleration, card draw, tutor power, disruption? none of the above. this is the one card I think is most harmless for unrestriction, bc voltaic key is actualy potential accel or combo enabler (though not worthy of restriction either). I cant imagine wasting slots in stax or any other deck for vise. bring on the 4xvise decks, please!

[SpencerForHire]

4x Black Vise in stax?  If you could find room (In place of uba mask) then I guess you could have a ghetto ass version of Stax that randomly loses..

[Tha Gunslinga]

what the hell is so great about black vise? is this mana acceleration, card draw, tutor power, disruption? none of the above. this is the one card I think is most harmless for unrestriction, bc voltaic key is actualy potential accel or combo enabler (though not worthy of restriction either). I cant imagine wasting slots in stax or any other deck for vise. bring on the 4xvise decks, please!

Gee, wouldn't Black Vise be pretty good in STAX?  Gee, what's the best deck in the format right now?  Gee, could it be STAX?

[SpencerForHire]

It doesn't have any synergy with Uba Mask though, which I hear is a pretty big piece, I'm not a vintage player though so I wouldn't be positive.

[PacmanXSA]

Three words: Four Friggin' Tinkers. Highly unlikely, in my opinion. With PT, VT, DT, MT and Imperial Seal in the mix, none of the Tutors will be unrestricted as long as Tinker and Will are around. And those two are here to stay.

Then why aren't people running the Personal Tutor MD right now?  2 tinkers are better than 1, wouldn't you agree?  I just feel that there are a plethora of tutors that can be run at this point and I don't think anyone would run 4x Personal Tutors; if even 1.

I can see voltaic key being unrestricted, but Frantic Search?! Are you insane? Combo would have to find a reason NOT to run 4 of them.

With control and prison so heavy imbedded in the current metagame, combo can definitely use a boost.  Would FS break combo decks?  Possibly, however I doubt it.  They're slowly bringing back all of the cards that broke Academy, and none of them are proving to be overpowered.  Frantic Search, if unrestricted, would certainly become a staple if unrestricted, however it wouldn't be broken IMO. 

As far as Vise goes, I would certainly test it in Stax, however it would be more interresting for aggro players looking for an even faster control matchup win, like the good ol' days when 4 of em weren't uncommon. 

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Pac

[Vegeta2711]

Please oh please oh pleasse, I'm just waiting for the day you guys give me 4 Vise to bring back Stacker 3. GG Mana Drain decks, burn in hell combo, all I then need is to run maindeck hate for other MWS decks.

[t3h_fury]

4x Vise makes Stasis viable

[Dozer]

Three words: Four Friggin' Tinkers. Highly unlikely, in my opinion. With PT, VT, DT, MT and Imperial Seal in the mix, none of the Tutors will be unrestricted as long as Tinker and Will are around. And those two are here to stay.

Then why aren't people running the Personal Tutor MD right now?  2 tinkers are better than 1, wouldn't you agree?  I just feel that there are a plethora of tutors that can be run at this point and I don't think anyone would run 4x Personal Tutors; if even 1.

Same reason why people don't run Dream Halls: When you only have one, it just isn't good enough. When you have four, you can build a deck around it. 4 Personal Tutors would allow you to make concentrated Tinker (and Yawgmoth's Will) decks. By the way, I am trying to find room for Personal Tutor especially in decks with the Flame Fusillade kill, although Imperial Seal (not that I have one) would take precedence anyway.

On Frantic Search: I have no problem with real combo decks getting some action for half a year. Then the combo-control decks would have to divvy up their attention more than they do now, and actually decide of they want to be more controllish or more comboish. I think Frantic Search would have less impact than Black Vise, which would randomly kill many more people. (Black Vise, by the way, has the same problem as Personal Tutor and Dream Halls: You can't build a deck around a single card barring Tinker and Will, of course, of which you only need one anyway in most cases.)

Dozer

[Fubar]

Frantic search is a horrible idea.  It is a madness enabler, jacks up storm count too well, becomes sick with academy, etc.  Free spells are dangerous, and this is one of the best ones.
On the other hand I question where Dream Halls decks would fit in power wise.  Would the be too uberpowerful, or would it end up just being another doomsday?
Parfait playas are just waiting for tax to get unrestricted, it doesn't seem over the power curve.

[Bram]

Parfait playas are just waiting for tax to get unrestricted

Erm...what? Land Tax is restricted? When did this happen? That's stupid. It's like restricting Mountain Goat.

[Methuselahn]

I wouldn't mind seeing Vise unrestricted.  Sure, it would warp the format, but I honestly believe that we wouldn't be sitting with only one viable archetype.  It could really change Vintage, but not necessarily in a bad way.  And yes, Stacker decks would come back in a big way.   

[Komatteru]

Things like this should never happen:
Shop, Vice, Vice, Chalice at 0

Congrats, this game is over.

[Jacob Orlove]

Things like this should never happen:
Shop, Vice, Vice, Chalice at 0

Congrats, this game is over.

You can still play the moxes, though.

[Komatteru]

Does it matter?  You have like no mana and are taking tons of damage.  You can't keep the Moxes back and hope to remove the Chalice later.  I don't think we need a card that punishes players for NOT having Moxes.  We've got cards that punishes players for having too many, but the format itself punishes players for not having acceleration in their opening hands.

[Matt]

4 Vise Affinity!

[Demonic Attorney]

I'm inclined to agree with JD here.  Any opening that consists of multiple Vises and a disruption card is almost certainly game over.  I played back when this was possible, and that was long before Sphere of Resistance, 3Sphere, Chalice, or Crucible/Waste was around.  If it was restriction-worthy then, it would be absurd now given all the above cards and unrestricted Workshops.

I think Voltaic Key could be unrestricted without affecting the format much, but having it restricted doesn't do a whole lot, either.  That is, it's not like there's a deck archetype that can't be played right now that would open up in the case of an unrestriction.

[Machinus]

Why don't we take of LoA and Vice at the same time!

Seriously though, LoA has gotten so much worse. No decks use it anymore.

[Jacob Orlove]

Oh, I wasn't saying that Vise should come off the list, just that the situation you presented isn't strictly game over, especially if you Force the Chalice.

[jcb193]

As much as i wholeheartedly think Vice should never be unrestricted (unless we are trying to speed the format up even more), the only upside is that maindeck artifact removal might become cool again.  In the old days, Black Vice presence is what made Disenchant a staple of most decks. 

Furthermore, we don't need another card that rewards going first.  (Not to mention Strip/Waste/Crucible synergy)

[cssamerican]

Most of the cards on the restricted list were restricted because their power level was so much higher than anything else at the time; however, as time passed that gap disappeared for many of those cards.

Last time I checked everyone pretty much agrees that Gifts Ungiven is more powerful than Fact or Fiction, yet Fact or Fiction is restricted and Gifts Ungiven is not. On top of that, no one is calling for Gifts Ungiven to be restricted, so this leads me to believe that Fact or Fiction should be unrestricted. I am curious as to how anyone can argue that it should remain on the list.

People's fear of Black Vice as a control killer comes from past experience when it was legal. The problem with those memories is that when it was legal it took control decks at least ten turns to win, and for them to win they needed to keep a full grip. So, at the time it gave aggro decks almost unbeatable hands on a consistent basis, now that aggro decks can barely win a game and control decks win on turn three it is hard to convince many people including myself that Black Vice would become anything more than a good card. I am not even sure if it would be the most efficient damage spell in today's game.

Library of Alexandria is hardly played as a one of for several reasons. It isn't easy keeping exactly seven cards in one's hand when the format is so fast. It is a non-basic land that doesn't produce color mana, which if played on turn one or two could prevent you from having the double blue needed for Mana Drain. Now if we unrestricted it and someone runs it as a four of all those problems will become even more magnified.

About the best thing I can see with Voltaic Key is a Gilded Lotus deck with Memnarch. It would probably be good enough to play, but I though it was common knowledge that three card combos sucked. Therefore, it shouldn't be problematic, especially since it would roll over and die to Null Rod.

Regrowth is another card I can’t figure out why it is still restricted. You have to find broken card, it has to go in your graveyard, then you have to pay the mana to Regrowth it. Since there are already several effects that do the same thing for almost the same mana cost, and they are almost never played I can’t see why this card scary.

The only debatable cards that I would be leery about are the ones that when they resolve it could mean the game. Dream Halls is a perfect example of this. If it is unrestricted and it is played it will be broken if it isn’t played nothing will change so there isn’t any motivation to unrestricted it. The same is true for Mind Over Matter though it is almost a guarantee that it would not see play regardless.

It would be interesting if the Vintage community made day 2 of a respected tournament such as Waterbury a tournament in which they unrestricted all the debatable cards to see what is actually still too good to be unrestricted. Either way, I would like to see WotC take a risk on unrestricting some things if something proves to be a mistake they can always restrict it again in a couple of months.

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/7699.html

4 FOF BBS got 3nd place??  Out of GAT, BBS, 4 Necro Trix, Long, etc.  BBS was REALLY really  broken.  It could have beaten GAT.