December 1

[Tha Gunslinga]

In order for something to get the axe in TYPE 1, it has to be warping the metagame.

Possible targets for restriction:
Shop
Drain
Welder
Gifts
Grim Tutor
Thirst
Chalice

Are ANY of those warping the meta?  No.  Stax is somewhat dominant, but not remotely close enough.  I predict no restrictions for Type 1.

Unrestriction, possible targets:
Voltaic Key
prob not much else

I wouldn't bet on Key.  What does it help?  Shop decks.  What does Wizards NOT want to see helped?  Shop decks.


Legacy (a format I know very little about) possibilities:
Time Vault
Lackey (or some other Goblin)



If Vault gets the axe, that will indicate that price is a factor in Legacy bannings.  I find this highly probable.  I wouldn't bet on Time Vault getting the axe, but I wouldn't bet against it either.

Lackey I would put at about the same probability.  Ultimately Goblins is too damn good, and while it's not dominant in the same way Long or GroaTog was in T1, it's still a bit too good.

[Revvik]

If Land Tax were unbanned, I would totally play it in Legacy.

[vroman]

my prediction
unrestrict (in order of liklihood)
voltaic key
black vise
mox diamond
frantic search
dream halls
fact or fiction

restrict in order of liklihood (but in this case all are very unlikely)
oath of druids
gifts ungiven
some stax element (chalice or crucible posibly)

[nataz]

I'm surprised you put oath over gifts,
any particular reason?

[Juggernaut GO]

because unlike the northeast,  all people in the midwest play is oath because they are so imaginitive.  Vroman must be tired of playing oath or something.  He should be happy to play against an oath deck every other round, it's like they are giving away power in the midwest tournaments !

I assume you meant "unimaginitive" in your original post.  Regardless, let's keep on topic and not get into a "your metagame sux" discussion.  Like Vroman said, he stated he thought any of his choices were HIGHLY unlikely - Dante

[Guardian]

Vroman, in order of likelyhood, I hope you meant "near zero" chance, because most of your cards would indeed warp T1 You're funny unless you're really serious

T1 seems fine right now, so why change it, except maybe for Voltaic Key, which is definitely unrestrictable.

[forests failed you]

Vintage:  Chalice of the Void gets restricted and Key gets unrestricted.

Legacy:  Ancient Tomb, Goblin Lackey, and Time Vault get banned.

[BigMac]

unban land tax

unrestrict voltaic key although that is a long shot as it would mean a lot of new artifact mana.

As for restrictions, i only see time vault being restricted as it is becoming an elitist expensive card and as legacy is the cheap vintage horse for wizards to get more people into old formats and for them to have some kind of hold over vintage. That would be the only reason as i still do not see a 6 mana combo do well as legacy is to fast for that i think. Next to that it is to easily disrupted.

[Matt]

I hadn't considered unbanning. Key might well get unbanned in T1. Nothing will get unbanned in 1.5.

[knickers]

Possible targets for restriction:
Shop
Drain
Welder
Gifts
Grim Tutor
Thirst
Chalice

I never considered Thirt for Knowledge, or Chalice of the Void before ...

I could see Chalice of the Void getting restricted based on the "fun" factor alone ... sorta how Trinisphere got the axe ...
The card is slowly finding it's way into a lot of the top decks ...
But, I can't see it getting the chop ...

Thirst for Knowledge, I don't believe this will be restricted ... there are other cards which could be just as effective ...

Gifts Ungiven is a lot better than Fact or Fiction ...
I never really thought of it that way either, perhaps it will get the axe? or maybe Fact or Fiction will get Unrestricted?

Grim Tutor ... yes ...

The popularity of Goblin Welder has seemed to died down a little ... what I mean by this is that the numbers are still up (not as high), but the outrage has seemed to die down about them ... Perhaps Pithing Needle helped a little? I dunno?

If they ever decide to restrict Mana Drain, or Mishra's Workshop's, I really hope that they give us (the community) a little warning ... if not, then it could prove fatal to the format ... I know a lot of people who only play because they own these cards, and have grown to love them ...


Oh, PS ...
Type 1
Yawgmoth's Will ... BANNED!
tee hee hee
*Please don't make this into an arguement, but I wouldn't cry if it got banned ...also you would see some ultimate changes in certain decks ...*

[Guardian]

Maybe leaving Yawgmoth's Will out of this discussion. Smennen wrote a great article and the subject has been beaten to death.

But I don't ever see FoF being unrestricted. Ever.

[Komatteru]

Grim Tutor?  So the deck does well at one tournament (everyone else scrubs out with it) and it's time to restrict it, eh?  Clearly, the following cards also need to be restricted based on the "done well at one tournament philosophy":
Oath of Druids
Mana Drain
Gifts Ungiven
Mishra's Workshop
Chalice of the Void
Joblin Charbelcher

Those cards there have won a lot more than Grim Tutor ever will.

[MacDad_TN]

I think type 1 has a small chance of losing something key in Stax. IMO it will be something smaller, either Chalice or Crucible.  I'm sure Gifts is on the watch list, but I don't think it has proven itself to be restriction worthy yet.

In legacy, Lackey will probably be banned, it has proven to be somewhat of a problem.  I really doubt they axe Time Vault this time around.  If it becomes a problem, they will get it in the next banning.

[cosineme]

I hope to god they don't touch lackey. Having a strong, dominant aggro deck does wonders for the meta. It allows some kind of predictability and really allows the triumviate exist. Taking away lackey would be like taking out aether vial in extended, too drastic of a response.

Also, gifts isn't better than FOF. as a singleton, gifts is better, but if you could play more, then fof is better...so it's hard to compare the two.

[Fubar]

Removing lackey would possibly enable other aggro decks (WW, Gstompy) to be viable.  Then we can actually play will "all" the cards like we keep saying. 
 Unbanning Land Tax would be sweet, It doesn't appear to be over the power curve.  Time Vault seems to have no reason for banning, secondary market price will never be a reason for banning :shock:
Real G's know that Ancient tomb is definately one the most powerful cards in legacy, yet it still doesn't show enough criteria for banning.
As for vintage, Key isn't too likely to be unrestricted, they don't appear to like those kinds of enablers.
Anyways, vintage seems stagnant, I always get heat for saying it but, lets stir the shitpot and make drastic changes, (shop, drain?)
no guts no glory hey

[Klep]

Time Vault seems to have no reason for banning, secondary market price will never be a reason for banning

Actually it already has been.  Secondary market value was a large reason for the bannings of Drain, Workshop, Mask, and Bazaar.

[Bardo]

Secondary market value was a large reason for the bannings of Drain, Workshop, Mask, and Bazaar.

The power level alone of the cards you listed reasonably justifies their banning Legacy. Price just helps breaks the tie between cards that are "good" (legal) and "too good" (not).

I don't think we'll see the banning of Time Vault. If it placed several people in the T8 of GP: Philadelphia, then maybe. But that was clearly not the case. Werebear is the real offender.

[dicemanx]

The issue of price dictating bannings in Legacy is unclear to me. There are still a number of big expensive bombs that are available in the format:

Juzam Djinn
Berserk
Forcefield
Tabernacle
Chains of Mephistopheles
Moat
Abyss
Nether Void

Perhaps there is a price cut off, say around $100 or so, where the card would be deemed appropriate to ban based on price considerations alone. However, I just don't see them touching Time Vault Dec 1st. The card did nothing at the GP, apart from propelling a very good player into day 2 who would have likely made it with any decent archetype.


As far as T1 is concerned, I see no restrictions happening any time soon, apart from Grim Tutor based on "general considerations". And Gifts Ungiven - Gifts isn't any more powerful than other top archetypes such as CS, Stax, Dragon, Oath, and dare I say U/W Fish (if anyone bothered to play the good builds that is ). Now we can probably add Grimlong into that list. Therefore, I just don't see them touching Gifts for a long time either. Unrestrictions, on the other hand, are very possible. Voltaic Key probably leads the list, although I feel that MoMa is harmless as well. In any case, whatever they decide to unrestrict will likely be very unexciting.

[Machinus]

Voltaic Key probably leads the list, although I feel that MoMa is harmless as well. In any case, whatever they decide to unrestrict will likely be very unexciting.

We've already got MoMa.

[Bram]

The issue of price dictating bannings in Legacy is unclear to me. There are still a number of big expensive bombs that are available in the format:

Juzam Djinn

Thank you. If Vault gets the axe, so should Juzam. They're about equally useful :-P

[Matt]

The issue of price dictating bannings in Legacy is unclear to me. There are still a number of big expensive bombs that are available in the format:

Juzam Djinn

Thank you. If Vault gets the axe, so should Juzam. They're about equally useful

Um...no? Vault is incredibly useful and Juzam is shit. What the hell are you talking about?

[Bram]

Well, obviously Vault is more useful than Juzam. I was just stressing the point I made earlier, which is that price-based restrictions do not occur. Otherwise Juzam would have been gone, as well. This indicates the power level of expensive cards is a consideration in Legacy bannings. And I seriously doubt (from looking at results, mind you, not from testing) that Vault has shown to have issues regarding that. If (as has become evident by looking at Juzam) the price alone is no criterion for banning, then Vault should not be banned. Yet, anyway. Preemptive bannings based on gut feelings rather than tournament results are dumb.

[Machinus]

So it's only OK to ban expensive cards if they are good?

[Bram]

Apparently.

If noone wants to play a card (e.g. Juzam) then I don't see the point in banning it for the reason that noone can realistically get a playset.

I'm not saying noone wants to play Time Vault, but I've seen it declared dead. It's not the Hottest Thing (TM) in Legacy by a longshot these days.

[SpencerForHire]

I think Time Vault won't see the axe for one reason:  It isn't playable enough.  It's good in one combo and the combo itself is a very unsafe one.  It is very easy to prevent with Needle, Disenchant effects and other such things.

[dicemanx]

Voltaic Key probably leads the list, although I feel that MoMa is harmless as well. In any case, whatever they decide to unrestrict will likely be very unexciting.

We've already got MoMa.

See? That was so unexciting I completely missed it .

[Dozer]

It's 10 days away and the talk hasn't started.

I will peek into the first of the 24 little hats of my Advent calendar and have some chocolate.

The big change I see forthcoming is... the little hat will be empty. And I will have eaten chocolate.

[t3h_fury]

I play very little Vintage so I won't comment.

As for Legacy, I think that the format is fine.  Wizards banning anything will upset the balance we have been working for and are very close to attaining, IMO.  

As for Goblin's dominance, Controll and Combo (which has gotten a metric fuckton better thanks to Golden Grahms, IGG, and good Solidarity.  Props to TMD on the first two) need to improve.  As for other aggro, which may not be able to answer Goblins pure speed, needs to start running big guys. KillerWhiteRabbit/Rasunder and I have been working on porting a Workshop Aggro stlye creation which can generate huge amounts of mana very quickly.  

As for Key in Legacy, my "Workshop Agro" would love to see it unbanned.  Turn one Key, turn two Basalt Monolith, Lotus Petal, Trike/Duplicant/RazorMang/Juggs/other fat.

[Bardo]

So it's only OK to ban expensive cards if they are good?

If they are "too good" (game-warping), then yes. If they're just expensive (say, [card]Forcefield[/card]), then, then no. Legacy players shouldn't be concerned that their expensive cards could get the axe just because they're expensive. But if those cards are part of degenerate two-card combo, then it comes a possibility.

But if Lackey and/or Ringleader got the boot, I would not shed any tears.

[Vegeta2711]

If Illusionary Mask is banned, Time Vault should be banned for being better and just as expensive. If not, Illusionary Mask should be unbanned.

It won't happen though.

Oh and if any Goblins get banned, people are really overreacting.