Improving Goblins in Vintage

[UR]

Actually, resolving the Goblin Recruiter is gg, not the Foodchain.

[Duncan]

i do not totally agree with you... after resolving recruiter they can still make you manascrewed and after food chain, it is much more difficult.

[cryolyte]

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Pearl

3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Recruiter
3 Goblin Matron
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jikki, Mirror Breaker

3 Food Chain
1 Berserk
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Swords to Plowshares

2 Plateau
4 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
4 Taiga
2 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

SB:
2 Plateau
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Serenity
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Artifact Mutation

Here's something I threw together last night. Orim's Chant also comes to mind against combo, but I think pillar might be a better choice, since a) they might duress you as they are ramping storm, and b) pillar is on-color.

I lost Null Rod along the way, hopefully the serenity will make up for it.

The lone Swords in the Maindeck is just there, I had one more slot to fill.

In goldfishing the manabase may be too heavy (17 land, 7 artifact sources) but I think this will allow me to use my wastes more freely, and keep me stable if I should pop a serenity and lose my moxen. And I had to put in plateaus somewhere.

I think theoretically, this build in particular shores up matchups against

storm combo: you have one more moxen added to help get your pillar down first turn.

dragon: you have swords to plowshares, and berserk to help race them the aggro way.

oath: you have 4 swords at your disposal for their creatures. I think if you leave the food chains in, that leaves them too many must-counter spells.

[UR]

Don't forget that Goblin Sharpshooter is a nightmare for the Dragon player. Each time the Dragon goes to the graveyard, you will get an untap trigger. It makes it much harder for the Dragon player to get enough mana to kill you.

Wouldn't Abeyance be a better choice than Orim's Chant versus storm combo?

i do not totally agree with you... after resolving recruiter they can still make you manascrewed and after food chain, it is much more difficult.

Well, true, but it is like resolving a Tinker. Your opponent can still win but most of the time they just won't.

[cryolyte]

Wouldn't Abeyance be a better choice than Orim's Chant versus storm combo?

I don't think so but I could be wrong.

Orim's Chant:
Kicker W (You may pay an additional W as you play this spell.) Target player can't play spells this turn. If you paid the kicker cost creatures can't attack this turn. 

Abeyance:
Until end of turn, target player cannot play instants, interrupts, or abilities requiring an activation cost. Draw a card. 

With Abeyance they could still play sorceries. Theoretically, they could still combo out on you (or at least do a bit of damage) via draw-7s and tendrils. Sure you get to draw a card, but that's not worth the risk I think. Plus it costs one more mana.

Why did you think Abeyance would be better? Maybe I'm missing some aspect since I don't play combo?

[UR]

No, I stand corrected. I thought it stopped Sorceries as well.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Umm... Yes it can.

Abeyance
1W (2), Instant
Until end of turn, target player can't play instants, sorceries, or activated abilities that aren't mana abilities.
Draw a card.

Oracle text... Don't leave home without it.

[UR]

In that case I would play it.

It only costs W1, which is very castable (even in goblin where you don't really want to keep two mana open but hey, if that is what it takes to win). It replaces itself and it is a great play as a response to Yawgmoth's Will.

People won't be attacking you anyway, so I don't think the 'that player can't attack'-clause of Orim's Chant is that useful. That means it would only cost one mana (twice as good as Abeyance there  ). Except against Oath, in which case you aren't going to play the Chant anyway because it will only delay the inevitable. I just don't think this is any sort of answer against that deck.

But because Abeyance will also stop activated abilities I think it could really be worth it. Combo decks that aren't about casting 9-spells-and-a-Tendrils usually rely on activated abilities (except maybe Doomsday, but that is Instants/Sorceries again).

1) Dragon --> Sliver Queen, Shivan Hellkite, Abassador Laquatus, etc. And ofcourse the Witness kill is stopped because it relies on either Ancestral Recall or Time Walk.
2) Belcher --> Well... Goblin Charbelcher (duh)
3) Turboland --> Barbarian Ring, Strip Mine
4) Gifts --> Timevault, Goblin Charbelcher
5) Bomberman --> Auriok Salvagers, Black Lotus, Aether/Pyrite Spellbomb
6) <insertwackycombohere> --> Will rely on an activated ability about 75% of the time.

And then there are the single cards that are powerful enough to be mentioned; Bazaar of Baghdad, Goblin Welder, Psychatog, etc. etc.

Maybe this is just cast of personal preferance, but I think I would play the Abeyance in this cast (if I were to splash for white at all. I do it in Legacy all the time, but I'm just not sure this is the way to go for Vintage).

[Mark_Story]

With no way to draw non-goblin cards, other than to rip like a champ.  Is the lone StP, and weakened mana base worth it?

I do notice that Food Chain is considered by most to be the "must-counter" card in the deck.

I found that the polar opposite is true.  Why would you waste a counter on a card that is highly unusable if you stop the threats that enable it.  If you knew that both a recruiter and a food chain were coming down in the same turn and you only had one counter, which spell would you counter?  If you counter the food chain you lose, to a short stack of lackey, ringleader 4x piledriver.  If you counter the recruiter, they have a powerful mana ability that weakens their team each time it is used.  I always found myself using food chain as a bait spell for bad control players.  Even if you resolve food chain there is no guarantee that you will resolve the recruiter and be able to win.  With a recruiter, at the very least you can always super matron for a few goblins.

[merfolkOTPT]

in regards to Dragon they can sometimes be playing caller of the claw as the kill which gets around the whole abeyance thing for that turn.  Just FYI

[Drakeraistlin]

Hey guys, this is Jason Hall (pilot of the first decklist in this thread). Let me just say that the thing that bummed me out the most about getting 9th was the thought that people wouldn't discuss my decklist here. I've been playing this deck for about 3 years and have pretty much exhausted my ideas for the deck, and it's both amazing and refreshing to get other people's input. That said, here's my input. I have a lot to say and I hope it's all clear. I will post my logic first then propose two sideboards based on that logic.

For artifact destruction in this deck, although slightly harder to pay for, artifact mutation is better than naturalize because of the obvious aggro boost it gives goblins. This also works on colossus, which naturalize can't do. Against stax, artifact mutation is just ridiculous. However, while artifact mutation has mad synergy with the deck (imagine what happens when you artifact mutation a colossus with a food chain out......*drools*), naturalize is by far more versatile. While artifact mutation is a monster answer to:

Stax
Belcher
Colossus
Slaver
(a few others I've surely forgotten)

naturalize is a "just good enough" answer to all of the above, disregarding colossus, but also works against oath and dragon (again, other's I've surely missed) which are both very bad matchups for FCG and are the cause of the SB change. So why  not run naturalize instead of artifact mutation?

Against oath, Emerald Charm is simply a much better answer than naturalize. Same effect for 1 colorless less. Enough said. However, emerald charm doesn't work against dragon. Geting rid of Chalice allows me to adjust some numbers so I can get two answers to oath and dragon (making a sideboard of 5 cards with 3 copies), so I decided to focus one answer to each deck. My thought process was: I have enough room to answer both decks (oath and dragon) individually, so why not make each answer the best for each situtation? The problem with this is, with the current builds of dragon running bounce spells and abayance, the best answers (root maze, tormod's crypt, ground seal) can only slow the game down slightly, whereas naturalize could end the game. This means that, in my opinion, the current best answer for this deck would be naturalize. So the question is, with naturalize looking like such a good card, do I run a worse answer to oath, stax, slaver, etc just to have the best answer to dragon?

If I don't go for naturalize, the card I use against dragon should be an answer to storm combo. The only two cards I can figure that would fit this category are root maze and tormod's crypt. First let's look at root maze. Root maze slows everyone down (which seems good since both decks are faster than FCG) and must be bounced (in most cases) for dragon or storm combo to win. However, this mana base does not go well with root maze, not to mention the fact that fetch lands become very costly for this deck. Tormod's crypt, on the other hand, does not slow FCG down at all, yet can slow the opponent down to find ways of getting around crypt. Crypt is only good at stopping Yawg Will against storm combo, but this is a huge play. However, storm combo doesn't always need Will to win. Against dragon, crypt can get bounced or abayance gets played. This will slow the game down slightly, but with dragon's drawing power, it doesn't usually last long. Dragon has fewer answers to root maze, but storm combo has worse answers to crypt. Which card is better? Seeing as pyro pillar and null rod will come in against combo anyway, root maze seems to be the better choice (why attempt to overkill one matchup leaving another more vulnerable?).

Pyro pillar and null rod, from experience, are both just flat out necessary for the deck. The problem with pyro pillar against storm combo is they hit you for a lot (not enough to kill) and survive the pillar, or just hit you for exactly 20 and survive because tendrils costs 4. A pillar on the board will make the opponent think, possibly stall a turn or two, but works best when there's another hate card out that stalls (chalice, null rod) or there's another pillar out, slowing their game down even more.

Well I'm starting to get tired and don't want to get any less clear, so I'll end the sideboard discussion here with the two proposed sideboards:

Heavier towards Dragon Meta

3 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Naturalize
4 Pyrostatic Pillar

or

Heavier towards Oath Meta

3 Null Rod
3 Artifact Mutation
3 Emerald Charm
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Tormod's crypt/Root maze


As far as my maindeck is concerned, I upped the sharpshooter count to two for dragon and slaver (pentavus). I will never use less than 4 incinerators because they've never been a dead card for me. Uncounterable welder kill? Last I checked, it was 4 welders or none, so why shouldn't I have an uncounterable answer for each and every one? Hell, I've hard casted the guy. He's still a 2/1 beater or 4 mana with a food chain. I use 2 Kiki's and 2 Siege because I want to see them in my opening hand next to a lackey. I very rarely have a problem with seeing too many kiki's (can't remember ever seeing too many sieges).

3 has been the perfect number for food chains for me. I have NEVER drawn a food chain and wished it was something else since I dropped it to 3, and I still see it enough when I want it. I confess I use food chain as a counter target a lot. The situation has always been: have a food chain out with nothing to use (since they'd counter the goblins) or at least have a guy on the table. It's a very situational decision though.

Finally (really finally) the Red Blasts. Maybe it's just where I am, but I can think of three PEOPLE who don't use in my area (and I'm one of them). I can't tell you how many times I've heard "....You maindeck those?" immediately after someone walked into a blast. Ultimately, this pushes my lackeys through counters and stops gifts and tinker, two cards that lead to horrible horrible things for those little goblins.

Cards I've tried that, for me, failed:

Maze of Ith (works great against oath and colossus, but these decks play waste and missing that land drop really hurts)
Blood Moon (it's a worse food chain, in that it just becomes counter bait, or if it gets through it doesn't win the game, it just slows it)
Ground Seal (not versatile enough)
Wheel of Fortune (just never that great)
Oxidize (art mut and naturalize are better overall and people always set chalice for 1 first)
Rack and Ruin (art mut and naturalize are better overall)
Goblin Vandal (he was great when trinisphere wasn't restricted, but now he's either useless or won't get through when needed)
Elvish Spirit Guide (maybe if this were red....)

There are so many others that I can't remember (and most for good reason).

Well, if I weren't tired I'm sure I'd have more to say. However, I don't want to muddle this up more than I already have. I'd love to hear all the opinons you've got.

-Drake

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Actually, Emerald Charm does work against Dragon. You can't screw them over and leave them with no board, but Animate Dead and Necromancy are both global enchantments when they are played. When they come into play, there is a trigger that, when resolved, makes them Auras.

When Animate Dead comes into play, if it's in play, it becomes an Aura with enchant creature. Put target creature card from a graveyard into play under your control and attach Animate Dead to it.

Nifty, eh? 

So just use your Emerald Charm before that trigger resolves and you've got yourself an all-in-wonder answer. Don't forget Incinerator can also deal lethal damage to the dragon (assuming you've got the goods on the board) while his "comes into play" trigger is on the stack.

[Drakeraistlin]

At one point I knew this, but it seems that while writing my post I forgot that. In that case, I stand by my current sideboard, which is the second. Now the only decision is between Tormod's Crypt and Root Maze.

Drake

[Duncan]

Today I played a tournament with FCG in Castricum, the Netherlands.
Let me first post my decklist:

1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring

4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Recruiter
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector

3 Food Chain

4 Red Elemental Blast

6 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Rack and Ruin
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Naturalize
2 Goblin Bombardment

Some choices:
- I played no Kiki-Jiki because i simply couldn't get one.
- My sideboard kind of sucks.. i put one together just before the tournament started, because i was going to play oath at first. Most of the games i won with just my mainboard, although Naturalize turned out to be quite good.
- 3 Food Chain seems like the right choice to me. I hate starting hands with 2 of them, and by lowering the count to 3 you will almost never face one. On top of that, you don't need one to win. Just throw lots of little red men at them and see what they do 
- My manabase felt very very solid. think i had to mulligan only once in 15 rounds because i had just 2 waste + sol ring. Adding the single prospector turned out to be very good, still having a good second win condition in Prospector + Sharpshooter (+SGC)
- Last but not least, REB and Pyroblast are tech! They work so well, being able to force your turn 1 lackey through/counter their ancestral or whatever blue they play. It's even super to kill meddling mage!

Now let me tell you my results:
Round 1: Koen vd Hulst with Control Combo (with dark confidant). It looked very solid. 0-2
Round 2: Madness 2-0
Round 3: Black Sui (yes, it still sees play  :lol:) 2-0
Round 4: Turboland 2-0 (haven't seen the slightest bit of his deck
Round 5: Workshop Aggro 2-1 Incinerators are tech against welder/juggernaut
Round 6: Oath of Druids 0-2 Tried everything i could, but oath is just too good against goblins imo.

So i finished 4th with 4-2-0 (or 4-0-2, i never know the right order)

[Fubar]

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=25849.0;topicseen

#8 was foodchainless

[49 Cents]

Well yeah, but it's the worst list I've ever seen.. No Wasteland to begin with :/

[dend51]

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=25849.0;topicseen

but #4 did have foodchain in it. I have also seen the #8 deck in action and it looks bad, but it is actually very vast and can handle alot that is thrown at it. I still think foodchaing versions are better though.

[kirdape3]

Every time I play Food Chain Goblins (and that's still a whole lot, I'm the one that repeatedly advocates for it's place in the metagame on Meandeck), I actually hate the card Food Chain.  Like, big deal, Food Chain.  I'd rather set up the top of my deck for a couple of good Ringleader flops and attrition any aggro matchup, and Stax you just resolve Goblin Lackey and attack once with it.  Against a Mana Drain deck it's just handing them the three mana that they need to blow you out anyways.

I'd almost play it as a CounterSliver deck - just bring in a bunch of Blasts in it's place.  Remember, you should properly demolish the aggro decks in the format - you have to be worried about the Workshop, Ritual, and Mana Drain matchups.  Food Chain doesn't allow you to beat Workshop reliably (your two best cards there are AEther Vial and Goblin Lackey), it's almost certainly not fast enough to beat the Dark Ritual matchups, and REBs fight the Mana Drain matchups a lot better.

[cryolyte]

@kirdape3: You have some interesting points. I have 2 questions for you:

If you did cut the food chains out of FCG, what do you think about adding white for serenity, orim's chant, and swords from the board?

Do you think that adding aether vial would be good, considering that:
          a) it makes you drop null rod
          b) it would make chalice for one that much more painful (lackey and vial now)

Thanks

[kirdape3]

AEther Vial's pretty slow, but it also beats Stax and Drain very well.  I'm honestly surprised that it's not in the list to begin with.

Is Artifact Mutation better than Serenity and Plow, essentially?  It does the same thing against Colossus and Stax, and I guess the only reason to include Plow over it is traditional Oath of Druids with the Angels.

[P_f]

Here's a thought that bothered me: Why doesn't Goblins play Food Chain in legacy?

Is it because decks there are slow enough to make Aether Vial a lot better in that format than it is is Vintage?
Is it because Null Rod is less necessary in Legacy?
Could it be because playing vials as lackey #5-8 allows you to play Wasteland 5-8? (Ports)

Have anyone just ran monored vial goblins so they can play ports. It makes Bazaars half as good (port them before they return squees), u can delay their double blue drain mana, Tapping Workshop against stax on their upkeep slows them down alot. It also makes multicolor decks fetching for basics not as good.

Along with Reb/mutation/naturalize/pillars as MD hate, this could be a better build than FCG. Please correct me otherwise.

[cryolyte]

@P_f They don't play the food chain in legacy because recruiter is banned. Therefore it's not as explosive.