Uba Stax - pseudo primer

[Vegeta2711]

How is this true?  Unless he has about a million more mana and a way to abuse that mana (I.E., gifts or something that he's been holding pre-uba), he's still in a hole.  You're just going to replay everything and probably more next turn (as you were probably holding some moxes).

If he only has three-five lands, chances are he's not going to make a comeback at all.  Plus, we're not accounting for the fact that you might be holding a pyroblast, if this is game 2 or 3.

Actually the bigger concern is just that he throws down Tinker and kicks your ass. Also post-Rebuild, you make it sound like he's not going to be able to replay/play his own moxen afterwards to trash you either. It really isn't uber difficult to hold back a tutor or broken card and then throw down the Tinker for the win. I've won games I was in no shape of winning thanks to Rebuild and Tinker. The number of times it happens aren't very high or anything, because usually you do manage a Smokestack or Strip Mine recursion. But for the games where Uba Stax peters out and just tries to keep digging for a win, it actually has a decent chance of getting slugged upside the head by DSC.

MoxLotus already went over the time constraints issue.

[Evenpence]

I suppose you're talking about if he draws into Tinker, which is a sorcery.  If you have a welder out, you then weld uba out and he loses perma-loses tinker.  Also, you're assuming he has moxes.  Mox monkey takes care of moxes, as well as chalice at 0, etc.

The lock choices used with the ubastax example which Pyromasta used are somewhat one-sided.  Trinisphere, Crucible and Ubamask do nothing to stop Rebuild, which is why he used them.  Crucible is a lock piece concerning land, Ubamask is a lock piece concerning counterspells and uncastables, and I don't have to explain Trinisphere.

Moreover, it seems like Pyromasta is critiquing Ubastax, and not the new version of Ubastax running spheres.  Not only do Spheres make a huge difference in this example, (as they would actually effect rebuild,) but Pyromasta (and yourself) does not take into account all the previous things I've just said.

Anyway, Rebuild and Tinker are both huge threats, but both become substantially less when you have welder out.  Tinker isn't even a factor anymore, unless you somehow play a yawg will afterwards, getting all your artifacts out of the yard (heh).  And rebuild is substantially weakened by me being able to get rid of a lock for mana like mana vault or lotus.

You play Rebuild and do nothing during that turn, say go, and I replay everything, then we're back to the same topdecking hopes.  I mean, maybe, if somehow, you can do something with the three mana you MIGHT have from replaying moxes, or even play Gifts, there's really not a huge amount of stuff you can do the turn after, because I have 3-ball, and something new.

Better locks to choose might have been Stax, Crucible, and Welder.  Those are the key elements of the deck, anyway.  Uba helps card advantage, which helps you get out Stax, Crucible, and Welder.

In conclusion, I disagree with your assessment of how rebuild just wins against Ubastax.

[pyr0ma5ta]

You're not getting my point.  My point is that "not losing" isn't the same as "winning."  Because you've established a fairly hard lock on a game does not mean you're going to win, because your opponent usually has any number of outs and tutors for said outs.  If you can't harden up the lock to an unbreakable prison in the first 3 or 4 turns, i've found that you probably won't win because the blue deck will somehow resolve something good and either drain into a game ender, or tutor up something and end it anyway. 

My point is this, the lock concept is great.  Slow down the broken plays, make life real hard for him, and then win at your leisure.  But your leisure is not 15 turns of beating down with a 1/1.  That's just asking for your opponent to topdeck.  Unless you can establish a true hard lock (which is difficult), your opponent can just barely wiggle out and end the game in a hurry with a fast clock.  Without the ability to race, any bomb your opponent resolves is instantly game.

[Evenpence]

You're not getting my point.  My point is that "not losing" isn't the same as "winning."  Because you've established a fairly hard lock on a game does not mean you're going to win, because your opponent usually has any number of outs and tutors for said outs.  If you can't harden up the lock to an unbreakable prison in the first 3 or 4 turns, i've found that you probably won't win because the blue deck will somehow resolve something good and either drain into a game ender, or tutor up something and end it anyway. 

My point is this, the lock concept is great.  Slow down the broken plays, make life real hard for him, and then win at your leisure.  But your leisure is not 15 turns of beating down with a 1/1.  That's just asking for your opponent to topdeck.  Unless you can establish a true hard lock (which is difficult), your opponent can just barely wiggle out and end the game in a hurry with a fast clock.  Without the ability to race, any bomb your opponent resolves is instantly game.

Right.  I completely understand your point.  I don't have to agree with it to 'get' it.  Not exactly sure why you don't think I do.  I mean, I just posted a replay saying how topdecking rebuild does not win you the game when you're gifts, you need other stuff in addition to the rebuild, such as Gifts + Mana Drain.  It's assumed you didn't have enough mana to play the Gifts by itself, so you had three.  It's also assumed that you didn't have tinker in your hand with your example, etc etc, as you would have just cast that.

Here, maybe this will help:

Stax's goal in life is to deny the opponent any ability to do anything with this turn.  The exemplary example of this is Smokestack.  The reason Smokestack is good (and I'm sure you know this, but I'm just going over this before I make my point), is that Stax destroys opponent's permanents.  Without permanents, you have no mana, and without mana, you can't play good cards, and without good cards, you can't win.  Most of the locks in Stax deal with doing something simliar, whether it's forcing the opponent to tap his cards so that he can't use them (Wire), making it so that the threshold for casting more than one spell in a turn is higher (3-ball, Resistorb), denying him land advantage (Crucible), not being able to use artifact mana (Chalice, Null Rod) denying him the ability to play key spells (CHALICE), or making his draws functionally useless (Uba Mask).

Uba Mask is clearly the odd man out there.  But anyway, moving on:

Stax does not necessarily need a hard lock to win.  You would like 5c Stax more than Ubastax because they have large beaters which serve as small clocks in case they ever get themselves into a losing position.

5c is defensive, Ubastax is offensive.  Ubastax really does want to lock up the game within the first three turns.  5c couldn't care less, because it can win later in the game by welding in Karn and attacking with 4/4 smokestacks and such.  This seems like more of what you're talking about.

Establishing a fairly hard lock on the game almost always means I'm going to win, because I can use whatever I want to win as soon as I achieve a hard lock.

Maybe your definition of hard lock is different than mine, but usually if I've let my opponent who is playing Gifts get to FIVE MANA, I am not doing my job.  If I let him get to three mana when I have all those locks out, my deck has not been producing.

It's not that I can play four smokestacks, four crucibles, and four uba masks, as well as four welders on turn 12 and have a hard lock.  That's just silly.

A hard lock means that my opponent is prohibited from winning because he doesn't have enough mana to cast anything.

Again, the new version with Sphere of Resistence makes it easier to play against rebuild, because rebuild DOES cost more mana then.

Anyway, I'm not exactly sure what your problem with the 'new' deck is, as you haven't even mentioned sphere of resistence.  You probably just have a problem with the deck, Ubastax, and don't think it's that good because it can't win that much, which is just absurd, considering how much Ubastax wins.

I mean, when you say things like,

But your leisure is not 15 turns of beating down with a 1/1.  That's just asking for your opponent to topdeck.

I mean, are you serious?

Ubastax wins by beating down for 20 turns with a 1/1.  It does.  I can't really say more than that, just, you're wrong.

Unless you can establish a true hard lock (which is difficult), your opponent can just barely wiggle out and end the game in a hurry with a fast clock.  Without the ability to race, any bomb your opponent resolves is instantly game.

Again, what?  Say my opponent is at three islands, because I haven't been able to find strip mine, but I've wasted all the other lands he has, smokestack has taken out a good number of his stuff, and I have uba mask up to deny him counters (which wouldn't really make all THAT much of a difference in this situation, barring mana drain).

He topdecks rebuild.  So?

What if he has like, let's say 10 mana and topdecks rebuild, but no cards in hand because of Uba.  So?

I'm sorry for calling you just wrong, and I don't mean to be disrespectful or trite, but I mean, you just are.  Have you played the deck at all?  It gets it's wins usually in the first three turns, except in the mirror and in matchups like Slaver, etc.  The hard lock concept works, and it's not just a concept, but if you prefer 5c Stax, that's fine, and I understand why.

[Tiki Walker]

Hello, I have been following this wonderful article of Uba Prison with such a great interest.
Reading the discussions concerning this wonderful deck and watching its evolution from the Mono-Red built, to the Red Green Build, and finally back to the Mono-Red, Megalock style, has been a very invaluable experience for me.

Concerning the latest build with the addition of 4 resistors:

Before I tried to find some slots for the resistors, but I was not so sure about what cards are to be cut for them, and how many resistors should I put into the main deck. Therefore I tried adding 4 resistors to the main deck, cutting 1 Solemn Simulacrum, 1 Wheel of Fortune, 1 Uba Mask, and 1 Gorilla Shaman, without changing the mana base; just to see what is going to happen during playtest.

The addition of those 4 resistors is a huge boost to the lock capabilities of the Uba Prison, and on the play the deck is more likely to put down 1st turn lock piece, as it seems that 2 mana on turn 1 is more achievable with the mana base.

And it may be noted also that with the addition, the purpose of achieving board lock up conditions through deflation of the game gets more pronounced.

During playtest the resistors plug nearly all of the remaining holes of the combo matchup, and for me they also help to address more about the question presented when facing opponents with 2 land belcher or its varieties, that is; Does the opponent keep a hand that can soon go off with some dark rituals-powered, or some moxes-powered hand.

And adding resistors sure helps against drain based decks, by increasing the cost of all the counters they have, reducing the effectiveness of the mana drain itself, and making the usually few answer cards they have more expensive to cast.

However, running 4 resistors in the main deck, I often feel under pressure that after the 1st resistor was laid, that I have to find at least a Workshop soon, and keep it on the play, to be reliably cast other lock components that this wonderful Uba Prison deck has. After the first resistor, so many other lock components' casting cost are increased by 1, and since there are only 3 basic lands in the deck, this pressure gets heavier, especially if the opponent also run some wastelands and strip mine.

Trying to put other lock components by cheating its casting cost with welder after 1 or more resistors are on the board is often not possible, since welder frequently gets countered, killed, and also because chalice of the void for 1 often precedes the early game.

Moreover, there are times that putting down both null rod and sphere seems to be the way to lock board securely , but since my artifact mana also are shut down, then reliance on lands as mana source get higher, on Workshop in particular. This often backfires to me when facing opponents with complete wastelands-strip mine.

Although the Uba Prison has already been designed to power lots of its expensive lock components, it seems that after 1 or more resistors are on the play, the deck becomes more hungry of mana.

Therefore, could it be suggested that the new Mono-Red Uba Prison deck should run 3 resistors main deck, and the slot for the 4th resistor should be dedicated on 1 basic mountain, or maybe 1 City Of Traitor? I prefer to add that 1 basic mountain, so the deck can run more consistently with the addition of resistors, more resistant to wastelands.

 But maybe that city of traitor also can be considered, so there's more possibilities of putting early two-cc lock component, or three-cc lock component. But this is only a suggestion, anyway.

And, the gorilla should be at least 2 in the main deck, because they get a lot better with those resistors main deck. So I am going to try my Uba Prison to carry 1 duplicant and 2 shamans, and will try to test again.

One more issue, though with the upgrade I feel there are still problems need to be addressed with fast Aggro matchups; against Food Chain Goblins, for example; and with the Oath matchups; what with only 1 Duplicant in the main deck, and they also run full set of wastelands-strip. It seems that with these matchup, winning the coin toss is going to be one of the deciding factor of the match for the Uba Prison.
 
Overall, I really like this Uba Prison deck. If there is any inconvenience here with my post, comments, oppinions, then excuse me please, as I am just looking for ways to help improving this already wonderful deck.

[Evenpence]

Ancient Tomb is better than City of Traitors, especially in this build, but both are sub-par.  4 resistors is great for game 1.  You can adjust accordingly in games 2 and 3, but you want to maximize getting down two spheres.

I think your complaints about the spheres are very sound - I have the same problems too, and try not to up the sphere count above two unless I'm clearly winning, or have a smokestack out, but it's the mid-game, etc.

Resolving Welder is even more key in this build than it has been before.  The good thing is that Sphere helps you win more now, too, as darkblast costs 1B or 2B to cast, so they're really doing nothing with their turn, while you can throw down a lock AND another welder.

Thanks for your imput on the deck.

[PucktheCat]

Evenpence:  You are certainly right that in the situation you describe - topdeck Rebuild, 3-5 mana available, no other cards in hand - Uba Stax is in a fine position.  But that is rarely the situation.  Gifts has Demonic Tutor, Merchant Scroll, Gifts Ungiven, and Fact or Fiction, all of which circumvent Uba Mask and help Gifts maintain a hand.  If Gifts topdecks one of the tutors under Mask and grabs Rebuild then it can Rebuild at its leisure.  What pyro is getting at is the real key to the Gifts/Uba matchup.  Only Smokestack and Strip Mine can attack the 5-6 basic lands in Gifts, and as long as those are there (and barring something like Chalice for 1, 2, and 3 or 4x Sphere) Gifts is still in the game in a very real way.

Gifts v. Uba is a matchup that is very much affected by very small changes in deck design and player skill.  A 26 mana Gifts with Pithing Needles main and a skilled pilot can do very well against Uba, even against very good players.  A 25 mana Gifts with Misdirection or something else main, played by a mediocre player will lose to Uba all day long.

Leo

[Evenpence]

I agree with you for the most part, but please understand this:

In the situation that Pyromasta provided, it's obvious that Gifts has game, because none of the locks that he described effects rebuild.  If I have a welder out, it changes everything, as while you might have merchant scrolls and DT, I can weld the mask out, not allowing you to go get rebuild.

And even if you did get rebuild, you still need cards to abuse it, such as Gifts.

I completely agree with you on your analysis of the gifts/ubastax matchup.

You actually only need Chalice for 3 alot of times against Gifts, because they don't have 2cc bounce (You can't go get Hurkyl's with Burning Wish if the Gifts player even has Hurkyll's in the SB), and you can't rebuild/yawg's will/tinker etc then.  Game 2/3, Chalice for 2 is obv. key to stop mana drain/scrolls/DT/Hukylls, etc.  Chalice for 3 is nice only after Chalice for 2 is put down.

If I have all those locks down, and your topdeck rebuild, you have to have some way to abuse it (and the mana to abuse it), which is why rebuild does not just win against ubastax.  That's all I was saying.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Ok, fine.  Maybe Rebuild was a bad example.  But the principle is this: You don't WIN because your opponent is in topdeck mode with Uba and 2 lands and a Mox.  You're 1 topdecked bomb from losing.  And a Gorilla Shaman/Barb Ring isn't going to do jack diddly against 11/11 or Trike or Pentavus or whatever have you. 

Incidentally, Burning Wish can't fetch Hurkyl's.

[Evenpence]

Right, which is why I said it would be more accurate to give the Stax player more essential locks, like Welder, at least.

And I know you can't fetch Hurkyll's with Wish.  I said that.  It was about Chalice for 3.  (that is, rebuild costs 3, so if I get out chalice for 3, you can't topdeck burning wish into hurkyll's, or something like that, which kills an answer)

[pyr0ma5ta]

Evenpence, please don't flame me.  If you'd even read my original post you would have noticed that I've been playing Uba exclusively the last 2 months.  I know how good it is.  You may be Vroman's personal buttbuddy, but I at least agree with you when you say how good Ubastax is.  Please don't get me wrong.  I'm not ragging on the deck, I appreciate its power and am pointing out what I see is the biggest flaw in the deck, and am trying to provide good, productive feedback. 

By the way, Chalice on 3 against Mana Drain decks is quite a poor choice, because if you don't have chalice 1, you should set it there first.  Chalice 1 hoses Mana Drain decks hard, and then if you follow with Chalice 2 it's a disaster for them.  Chalice 3 is irrelevant, because all their business spells other than Rebuild, Gifts, Tinker and Thirst are already shut out, and Mana Drain isn't availble to help the cast their high cc, uncastable bomb spells.  Leaving the 2 slot open means Mana Drain eats your face.

The times when Uba doesn't win are those where you keep a shaky 6 carder and don't draw into lock pieces that you need.  Example hands that I find myself screwed to keep are things like: Shop, Taiga, Waste, Crucible, Null Rod, Gorilla Shaman.  Do you mull that?  You might just mull into oblivion, or you can keep and topdeck Welder, Crucible, and Bazaar, and proceed to lose the game summarily.  The gifts/slaver/combo/whatever player sitting across from you will quickly deal with the Null Rod and then proceed to win with whatever card he wants.  Like you said, your goal as the stax player is to make your opponent never do anything.  What if your hand is marginal and you never lock him out?  He can slowly fight his way out of the lock, eventually hit a big Drain, and summarily win because you took 10 turns to poke him to 7 life. 

All I'm saying is that if you stop the inital wtfbbqborkenpwn plays and follow up with a turn 4 win condition that wins the game in 2 turns, you'll lose a lot less.  I was just asking if anyone has tested Karn/Sundering Titan/whatever in Uba, and if it's worth the slots and loss of lock redundancy, or if it's just too much dead weight.

[Evenpence]

Whoa, where did that come from?  All I said was:

Right, which is why I said it would be more accurate to give the Stax player more essential locks, like Welder, at least.

And I know you can't fetch Hurkyll's with Wish.  I said that.  It was about Chalice for 3.  (that is, rebuild costs 3, so if I get out chalice for 3, you can't topdeck burning wish into hurkyll's, or something like that, which kills an answer)

?

I think any of my posts hardly consititute a flame, while calling me Vroman's personal buttbuddy, when I've never even met the guy is very flameworthy.  I mean, if I did say something that could have gotten you upset, shouldn't you have posted earlier, instead of posting after I replied about Chalice?  Because it looks like you're coming out of no where.

I'm just disagreeing with you man.  If you have the mana for it, Chalice for 2+3 is far superior to Chalice for 1+2. 
Moreover, I said,

Game 2/3, Chalice for 2 is obv. key to stop mana drain/scrolls/DT/Hukylls, etc.  Chalice for 3 is nice only after Chalice for 2 is put down.

 
Chalice for 1 hardly shuts anything off that could really hurt you if you have mana for both.  Let's take a look.

Chalice for 2 against Gifts takes out:
4 Mana Drain
1 Burning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
0-4 Merchant Scroll
1 Recoup
1 Time Walk
1 Hurkyll's Recall (game 2/3)

I don't think we disagree that Chalice for 2 is the best target, as it takes out mana drain firstly, but other utility also.  However, it seems to me that you think Chalice for 1 is better than Chalice for 3.  Well, I don't think that.  In fact, I don't know many people who do.  But just to be sure, let's take a look.

Chalice for 1 against Gifts takes out:
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
0-2 Pithing Needle

I honestly don't know how any of these could hurt you if you already have chalice for 2 down, go for the chalice for 3.  If I have two chalices in my hand against Gifts, and I get a broken starting hand like Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Workshop, Lotus, I'm obviously going for Chalice for 2 first, and if they counter, chalice for 2 again, but if they don't counter, chalice for 3.  If I get a hand like workshop, mox, mana crypt, chalice, chalice, I'm going to try for chalice at 2, and then I might set it at 0.  (which I probably will, especially if I have crucible in my hand as well).  However, if I don't have crucible, I'll consider, if it passes, to try for 3 next turn.  Mana can't hurt me when I take out ALL their buisness spells.  The problem is that they might have mox sapphire and then just go broken next turn with mana drain mana.  So it's risky.  Or, I might go with Chalice for 1.  It all depends on my hand.

Chalice for 3 against Gifts takes out:
1 Rebuild
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
0-4 Thirst for Knowledge
0-4 Rack and Ruin (games 2 and 3)
0-1 Rushing River (games 2 and 3)

Personally, I'm more scared of the spells that actually do something than brainstorm.  Also, Chalice for 1 takes out your pyroblasts/red elemental blasts, as well as shaman/welders, which are important in this matchup.  Games 2 and 3, I always try for Chalice 2+3.

Also, you said this: 

The times when Uba doesn't win are those where you keep a shaky 6 carder and don't draw into lock pieces that you need.  Example hands that I find myself screwed to keep are things like: Shop, Taiga, Waste, Crucible, Null Rod, Gorilla Shaman.  Do you mull that?

It depends.  Who am I playing?  Gifts, where the guy just looked surprised that he got a really great hand?  Yes, I mull that.  Almost anybody else?  No.  Waste recursion under Null Rod is good.  That's actually a great hand against Stax.  And yes, I keep that hand without knowing what my opponent is playing.

But yeah, I disagree with you, but I doubt that you can say I've flamed you.  Sorry you feel that way, though.

[benthetenor]

All I'm saying is that if you stop the inital wtfbbqborkenpwn plays and follow up with a turn 4 win condition that wins the game in 2 turns, you'll lose a lot less.  I was just asking if anyone has tested Karn/Sundering Titan/whatever in Uba, and if it's worth the slots and loss of lock redundancy, or if it's just too much dead weight.

Karn/Sundering Titan has been tested. They were both in the deck when Vroman won his first Black Lotus, and so there are very good reasons why they are no longer in the deck. The deck's mana curve tops out at 4 (now), making Sundering Titan basically only good for Welding. If you have an active welder and you get to the point where you finally find the single copy of Sundering Titan (or even one of the two), then you've already won. If you have Uba Mask in play and you reveal Sundering Titan, then you basically can't cast it unless you've also lucked into Tolarian Academy. The point is, once the deck hits a fairly good amount of mana, like say a Workshop and a Mountain and something else, there is no reason whatsoever to try to build the mana up any more than that, because you can already cast eveything in your deck. When the lands are some of the most potent threats in the deck, wasting land drops to build a manabase is a pretty poor play.

Karn was played for quite a while, but Karn + Null Rod + blocker = 0/8 Legend. Even Karn + Null Rod is only a 5 turn clock. The deck will generally have a Null Rod in play by the time you find a win condition, so it'd be much, much better to have a win condition not affected by Null Rod. This is the same reason why Triskelion isn't in the deck. And I'd certainly choose Null Rod over a kill condition, seeing as how there's already a perfectly legitimate kill condition in the deck. Ultimately, they're both just overcosted dead cards.

[yespuhyren]

If you have an active welder and you get to the point where you finally find the single copy of Sundering Titan (or even one of the two), then you've already won.

First of all, there are a lot of situations where this isn't true.  In a lot of cases, I have wished I'd be running titans, as the odds of having 1 in the yard for welding is pretty good with bazaars.  If your in a total lock, then fine, you've already won.  BUT its going to take 20 turns of swinging.  Nice and slow.  Takes time, which is what the point of the recent discussions has been.  Just too slow.  We want a way to speed up the kill in the deck.  Thats why it was mentioned.

Besides the clock, the fact that it often nukes 1-3 of your opponent's lands in 1 shot is pretty good, including usually hitting basic islands.  Remember, against a deck like gifts, where they run seas and volcanics, this card is very useful.

[Vegeta2711]

It depends.  Who am I playing?  Gifts, where the guy just looked surprised that he got a really great hand?  Yes, I mull that.  Almost anybody else?  No.  Waste recursion under Null Rod is good.  That's actually a great hand against Stax.  And yes, I keep that hand without knowing what my opponent is playing.

Really? You'd actually keep that? You get rolled by a decent hand from Gifts, CS and aggro of any sort. That hand pretty much only says 'I have a chance' against Stax. I know mulling to 5 is pretty bad, but it's a shop deck, you have an ok chance of hitting something decent.

[Evenpence]

I didn't account for random Aggro, and I considered Gifts to be the typical mana-drain FoW packing type deck (that hand is bad against any kind of blue-control.)

Besides, we were talking about Gifts.  Gifts doesn't just absolutely roll over that anyway.  When you say decent hand, what exactly are you talking about?

With Shop, Taiga, Waste, Crucible, Null Rod, Gorilla Shaman, not only do I have constant land destruction, but I have two ways of neutering artifact mana (which, unfortunately, I don't currently have), and I can always luck into Stax.

Moreover, it seems Pyromasta is still stuck on Grubastax, not the current version we have, as there are no Taigas in the newest version of the deck.

It's really not all that bad of a hand against Gifts.  It's much better than trying my odds at five and just losing straight out.  Yes, I keep it.

I do keep that hand without knowing what my opponent is playing, because it's versatile.

I stand by my statement.

Also, would you REALLY mull down to five?  I don't understand your line of thinking.

I mean, there are so many factors in this example.  Am I on the draw?  Is it game 1 and I know he's playing Gifts?

I was actually thinking in the example that I was going second, providing me an opportunity to get something.  I assumed that, though.  If I was going first, it'd make it all the better, as I could play first turn Crucible without him brainstorming for a FoW.

In a lot of cases, I have wished I'd be running titans, as the odds of having 1 in the yard for welding is pretty good with bazaars.  If your in a total lock, then fine, you've already won.  BUT its going to take 20 turns of swinging.  Nice and slow.  Takes time, which is what the point of the recent discussions has been.  Just too slow.  We want a way to speed up the kill in the deck.  Thats why it was mentioned.

Besides the clock, the fact that it often nukes 1-3 of your opponent's lands in 1 shot is pretty good, including usually hitting basic islands.  Remember, against a deck like gifts, where they run seas and volcanics, this card is very useful.

Titan is def. the best big guy in Ubastax, because of his utility against Gifts as well as being a huge guy against Aggro, etc.  I wouldn't have any problems with him being in the board.  The problem arises, however:  What do you take out for the guy in the modern build with spheres?  Duplicant?  a Shaman?  the 4th Sphere?

I've actually wished I've had Titan in my build at points as well, but that was overshowed by hoping I would topdeck a Duplicant staring down Akroma or something like that.  Not only is Duplicant easier to hardcast (which I've done tons of times), but it's ability is just better.  Titan for me has almost been win-more, or whoa-this-game-is-getting-out-of-control, -I'm-going-to-have-to-destroy-some-lands-quick-to-ramp-smokestack-up-higher.

Either he pretty much cements your win or is only good with Smokestack out.  Duplicant is neither of those, lol.  He either is pointless or is a flat out gamebreaker.  He's a gamebreaker more often than not, and he doesn't depend on Welder.

[benthetenor]

If you have an active welder and you get to the point where you finally find the single copy of Sundering Titan (or even one of the two), then you've already won.

First of all, there are a lot of situations where this isn't true.  In a lot of cases, I have wished I'd be running titans, as the odds of having 1 in the yard for welding is pretty good with bazaars.  If your in a total lock, then fine, you've already won.  BUT its going to take 20 turns of swinging.  Nice and slow.  Takes time, which is what the point of the recent discussions has been.  Just too slow.  We want a way to speed up the kill in the deck.  Thats why it was mentioned.

Besides the clock, the fact that it often nukes 1-3 of your opponent's lands in 1 shot is pretty good, including usually hitting basic islands.  Remember, against a deck like gifts, where they run seas and volcanics, this card is very useful.

Very useful but uncastable.

I don't think that either myself or the creator of the deck is looking for a way to speed up the deck's kill condition. If you're actively trying to kill your opponent and the best you can manage is one point of damage a turn, then you're in real trouble. Adding difficult to cast cards into Stax is like putting Revive AND Recollect in Extended Mind's Desire. Sure, it guarantees that you'll get any one particular card and Nostalgic Dreams with a Gifts Ungiven, but it's training wheels. A good player can get any card (s)he wants without having to resort to Revive/Recollect/Nostalgic Dreams/X to try and ensure Nostalgic Dreams and X. It's limiting the actual effectiveness of the deck because you don't think you can do it otherwise. Well, Vroman's been doing it without a "kill condition" for at least 6 months now. If you test a little more, I think you may just be able to do it, too.

If I get to the point where I've guaranteed I've seen a two-of AND I have active Welder, I've won the game because I've seen tons of other lock parts that I'd rather have in play. With an active Welder, I can have double Smokestack lock, I can have Uba lock, I can have Welder superiority. The most potent part of any Stax deck, Uba or otherwise, is that every top deck is a permanent that can be cast to fuel Smokestack. Having to weld in Sundering Titan isn't increasing your number of permanents, and if you've gotten to 8 mana then you've either won or you've been playing badly. Not to mention what happens if you have a mountain and they don't.

What happens if you put all of your eggs into Sundering Titan and they have a Swords to Plowshares? Or a Dark Banishing? What if you can never get a Goblin Welder to stick? Having a Goblin Welder in play for more than a turn is a luxury, not a right, because any respectable deck in the format can deal with said Welder. Adding in win conditions that are only reliable when Welder is in play is not increasing the deck's consistancy, it's decreasing it.

[Vegeta2711]

I didn't account for random Aggro, and I considered Gifts to be the typical mana-drain FoW packing type deck (that hand is bad against any kind of blue-control.)

Besides, we were talking about Gifts.  Gifts doesn't just absolutely roll over that anyway.  When you say decent hand, what exactly are you talking about?

With Shop, Taiga, Waste, Crucible, Null Rod, Gorilla Shaman, not only do I have constant land destruction, but I have two ways of neutering artifact mana (which, unfortunately, I don't currently have), and I can always luck into Stax.

Moreover, it seems Pyromasta is still stuck on Grubastax, not the current version we have, as there are no Taigas in the newest version of the deck.

It's really not all that bad of a hand against Gifts.  It's much better than trying my odds at five and just losing straight out.  Yes, I keep it.

I do keep that hand without knowing what my opponent is playing, because it's versatile.

I stand by my statement.

Also, would you REALLY mull down to five?  I don't understand your line of thinking.

Not that it matters if the land is a Taiga or not, it's completely irrelevant to the example. Put a Mountain in it's place and it doesn't change the strength of the hand at all.

If you really need me to describe a decent hand... something like a keepable hand that isn't particularly busted. No AR, Tinker, etc. usually some mana, a BS, a counter, a draw or search spell and some other card. Along those lines.

Here, I'll help clarfiy why I believe the hand is weak. The hand strength is dependent on how much artifact mana the opponent has in hand / was depending on. If the answer is 0 or 1, that hand is terrible.  If it's 2, it's decent. If it's 3 or more (no idea why), you'd win the game on the spot.

Null Rod and Shaman are redundant in this case and depedent on the opponent. Typically it's not a big deal. But when your already at 6 it's like you dropped to 5 cards already. Essentailly once you cast the Null Rod, the Shaman is a 1/1 mountain-goat. Crucible -> Wasteland is a strong play against non-basics, but every Gifts build I've played/seen has had 4 basics at minimum and 4-6 fetches. It's not difficult to play or fetch multiple Islands and simply cast your card draw (or scroll if you run that version of Gifts) and wait on Drain for a while. It only gets worse if Gifts has a maindeck Rack and Ruin, though sitting on Rebuild often has the same results.

My main issue is that you have no way to apply pressure or draw cards with that hand. You're almost relying on him keeping a mox laden hand or topdecking a Bazaar/Strip Mine to dig yourself out of a hole.

If you mulligan to 5, you may be able to at least get Bazaar in hand or a turn 1 Smokestack. I much rather go for broke with a deck that won't have too many mana issues w/ 1-2 lands than keep a hand I know is sub-par in all but a very specfic circumstance. Hopefully that clears it up for you.

[Evenpence]

Okay, I understand your line of reasoning now.  I agree with you for a good bit of it.

However, I do have some disagreements.  Gorilla Shaman is not simply dead weight if you get Null Rod down.  Gorilla Shaman takes out permanents, which allows Smokestack to do it's job more efficiently.

About the Taiga:  I was just saying how, if we're going to talk about hands, we might as well use the new version with spheres.  If I luck into just about anything I'm doing fine.  Welder, Stax, Chalice, Bazaar (which would be great), or anything really.

I wouldn't go to five because I already have a fine hand, and it will pay off big if he DOES have a mox-heavy hand.  If he doesn't, then Null Rod still makes Will near-pointless, and is advantage for me.

The point is, I already have Crucible and some way of destroying artifacts, all I need is something.  I can wait to topdeck something, considering all the goodies that I can get.  I don't need a bazaar in my opening hand to win or workshop/stax.

The probability of me going down to five cards and getting a better hand than the one I already have is alot less than 50%.  Plus, if he has a FoW, if I go down to five cards hoping for a Stax, I'm pretty much a goner.  None of the cards in my hand really force the issue with a FoW, except perhaps Shaman/Null Rod if he has a mox heavy hand.  Again, it depends on if I'm going second or not, and if this is game 1 or not.

I think the example used is just way too broad.  There are so many factors involved.  But yeah, I stand by my statement that the hand is winable against a decent Gifts hand.  I'm not saying it's FAVORED, but it's certainly winnable.

[Akuma]

So what's the verdict on Sphere of Resistance?

After doing some testing, I feel like these are my options:
a. Play with Null Rod, but no Sphere.
b. Play with Sphere, but no Null Rod.
c. Play both, but add more mana.

I'm not a big fan of "c", so I guess it's "a" or "b" depending on what I expect the field to be. Sphere is very strong in general, whereas Null Rod is more situational because of other redundant elements in the deck (Chalice, Shaman). When I play casual type 1, I usually run 3 Spheres and no Rods (Sphere #4 is called Trinisphere). I'm not going to debate the merits of Null Rod vs. Sphere, we all know their pros and cons, I just wanted to know what others thought of the current Sphere + Rod setup that is being advocated here.

[Tiki Walker]

So what's the verdict on Sphere of Resistance?

After doing some testing, I feel like these are my options:
a. Play with Null Rod, but no Sphere.
b. Play with Sphere, but no Null Rod.
c. Play both, but add more mana.

I'm not a big fan of "c", so I guess it's "a" or "b" depending on what I expect the field to be. Sphere is very strong in general, whereas Null Rod is more situational because of other redundant elements in the deck (Chalice, Shaman). When I play casual type 1, I usually run 3 Spheres and no Rods (Sphere #4 is called Trinisphere). I'm not going to debate the merits of Null Rod vs. Sphere, we all know their pros and cons, I just wanted to know what others thought of the current Sphere + Rod setup that is being advocated here.

Hello, there.
Would you please be so kind to elaborate more, on what matters options a and b are more appealing to you than option c? Please describe a little bit about your tests, etc., about situations when you find that all rods or all spheres in the maindeck will apply.

Carying Null Rods without resistors, the deck I think will feel/handle like the original one, so I think no questions should be asked.

Carrying resistors without the Rods, then maybe the deck will feel/handle like the 5color variant of this Prison archetype, Cron style, but with welders. This I honestly think can really open a whole new different utility cards in the maindeck, as without the Rods, then the deck can be equipped with artifacts with special abilities. But what would you like to add to the present list if it is without Rods? a couple Triskelions, perhaps, to improve random aggro matchups? I honestly think that this Triskelion will be a nice addition to the maindeck if we dont have Null Rods in it.

About the resistors and rods all in the maindeck; in my playtests it is manageable, but I am reluctant to use the 4 resistor-3 rods configuration, based on the findings I have posted ealrier; that after the 1st resistor is in play, then the rest of the lock pieces still to be cast become more expensive, but yet some of those lock pieces might be important enough to be cast, to:

1. interact with other lock pieces already in play.
2. to constrict the opponent further.
3. to increase the overall number of permanents in play, prior to or to support smokestacks.

After the 1st resistor is in play, it feels like virtually we carry lots of expensive lock pieces in the library and hand, all casting cost get more expensive by 1, and will be more expensive if the number of resistors in play increases.

This, in my playtests, demand that the mana we have must be able to support those more expensive lock pieces reliably, and put considerable importance on Workshops, which; along with the other non basics in this Uba Prison deck, are prone to wastelands and strip mine.

Therefore, I try to use 3 resistors maindeck (I agree with you that the 4th is already there; Trinisphere), and I dedicate the slot for the 4th resistor to a simple basic mountain. One old prison deck designer, once stated that to beat his opponents, he just need stable flow of lands to provide mana. So I still do tests concerning this 3 resistors-1 mountain.

About the considered slow kill pace of Uba Prison.
Old prison decks also tend to kill slowly, carrying maybe a black vise, or just making sure that cards in library will last more than that of  the opponents' ; by carrying 1 feldon's cane.
 
Lots of their games maybe would have something like 1-0 results because of time constraints, but it is still a win. And they are real decks made in the past to compete in large event tournaments, and had won lots of honorable places in those events.

Those old prison decks tend to kill painfully slow, I think it is because they have been designed to dedicate nearly all their resource for achieving a firm lock, starting from the 1st move of the 1st game of every round, whether on the play or on the draw. As long as a firm lock can be maintained steadily, win will surely come for them, fast or not. Compared to those decks, then Uba Prison has already have quite faster kill. Maybe quite some similarities can be drawn between the MonoRed Uba Prison to the prison deck designed by Mark Justice for the 1st Pro Tour. Those old prison decks seemed to take the approach of pure prison. Maybe this Uba Prison also does.

If we see the original MonoRed Uba Prison list posted in the beginning of this pseudo-primer by the designer, it contains 1 solemn, 4 welder, 2 duplicants, as well as 4 recurable barbarian ring and 2 gorilla shamans. As that was the list he used to win the SCG P9 Chicago for the 2nd time, then I suppose he did not have any pressure about must be able to win as fast as possible. Forgive me if I am wrong on this one, as I was not in that scene, anyway:)

After the RG Uba Prison was developed, again in the maindeck we saw few means worthy of any fast clock, in fact, he dropped the 2 possible beaters from that list. And after the megalock version is posted here, we again see that there's no noteworthy increase in ways to kill faster. Maybe it's just that he purposefuly design the deck that way, and he is comfortable with how the deck must be played.

Some words from him concerning the setup of 4 resistors-3 rods, the things he finds out more about that setup during his playtests using that configuration, and results of his playtests or matches against some popular archetypes by using that new build, and concerning the slow kill method, I think would be very interesting for us all to read.

Thank you all.

[Juggernaut GO]

null rod is so yesterday, pithing needle is totally the wave of the future baby.

[Polynomial P]

I do not believe that the slow clock of this deck is a problem. I played the old version of mono-red ubastax at a recent tournament due to a large presence of aggro. I felt that Solemn and extra duplicants were more important than extra spheres at that tournament. I never once went to time, despite the slow kill condition. I play in most of the tournaments that Vroman plays in and I have never heard him complain about the slow kill.

Currently I am running the mega-lock with +3 sphere of resistance, -1 Solemn, -1 Wheel of fortune, -1 Uba Mask. I still need to do more testing and I would like to have the 4th sphere of resistance in there, but I am unwilling to drop a duplicant or a gorilla shaman. Ill be at a tournament this weekend and Ill post what I find out about the deck here.

Pithing needle is trash. It doesnt stop mana abilities. If you need more reasons, you need 3 pithing needles to hit CS's big artifacts, You cant name bazaar or goblin welder or wasteland or strip mine, and pithing needle does nothing against combo while null rod forces them to find bounce.

[Akuma]

Pithing needle is trash. It doesnt stop mana abilities. If you need more reasons, you need 3 pithing needles to hit CS's big artifacts, You cant name bazaar or goblin welder or wasteland or strip mine, and pithing needle does nothing against combo while null rod forces them to find bounce.

Pithing Needle
Oracle text: As Pithing Needle comes into play, name a card.
Activated abilities of the named card can’t be played unless they’re mana abilities.

Pithing Needle works very well against Wasteland, Strip Mine, and Bazaar. Those are not "mana abilities". Pithing Needle is an effective tool against Uba Stax. I have actually run Pithing Needles in Uba Stax (sideboard), I just hate the anti-synergy with Chalice for 1, but they can be solid in certain situations (ie. they have a welder, you don't, they have a heretic you don't...)

Pithing Needle against slaver should be naming welder anyway and not big artifacts...

[Komatteru]

I also think that Pithing Needle is shit.  Against decks that play Welder (CS, the mirror), you're going to be setting Chalice at 1 ASAP anyway.  The other cards you'd want to needle are largely stopped by Null Rod.  It might be cute to nail fetches, but let's face it, Island is a bigger problem than fetchlands.

[Polynomial P]

What I meant is that its folly to name cards that are crucial to your deck. You can name island with pithing needle if you want, but it wont do anything.

Null rod is strategically superior to pithing needle since it hits so many problematic cards for uba stax. Against control slaver a single mindslaver activation should be enough to wreck you, even if they cant recur it with welder. And if they tinker pentavus into play, they just netted 4 permanents that can put you behind in the permanent race. Null rod also constricts opponents mana base, which pithing needle doesnt.

What would you rather have against 2-land belcher: Pithing Needle or Null Rod? What about Grimlong? Gifts? 5c Stax? Pithing needle has the potential to be fantastic in some matchups, like Dragon...but it is a narrow hoser.

[Evenpence]

Null Rod dominates.  Null Rod is better than Sphere in this deck, period.

You never, ever cut Null Rod from this deck.  It's the biggest mana denial component around, because it can be powered out first or second turn.  On the draw, Null Rod is 10x better than Sphere.

I find myself siding out spheres on the draw consistently.  I've gone down to 3 because I've not wanted to cut a duplicant or shaman.  However, having 3xSphere on the table won me a game against Slaver recently because he couldn't cast echoing ruin for long enough that I could get out a chalice for 2.  (he was going to blow up my spheres to go nuts).

Pithing needle is excrement.  All the stuff you want to name you use yourself.  Period.

The manabase is great as is, although I constantly wish I had basic mountain to start dominating with b-rings or throwing out shamans/welders because I'm at a low life.

Spheres win more consistently against drain-based decks.  This current deck with 4 sphere is insane against Slaver.  However, it's all about winning the welder war.  The spheres shut off counters (it's amazing what they do against FoW), but don't shut off welder.  I need to keep my graveyard free of artifacts constantly, and can't do that often enough.  I'm thinking about putting some lava darts in the SB, although the SB right now is pretty good.

My SB right now is as follows:

4 Pyroblast (4 of these have been too many sometimes, and not enough other times, I'm gonna leave it at 4 though until I decide what to do.  With Spheres/Chalices, these really aren't as effective.  I've been disappointed with Pyroblast in this build far too often.)
3 Viashino Heretic (I hate going below 4, but with spheres you have to)
2 Tormod's Crypt  (I sometimes want to go up to 3.  I'll let you know how that pans out as well.)
2 Duplicant (I already have two main)
2 Maze of Ith (I really don't think 4x Duplicant and 2x Maze is too little for Oath.  3x Maze isn't going to improve it that much)
2 Something

I've been thinking about doing 2x Jester's Cap to increase my chances of getting them against decks like Slaver/Gifts/Oath.)  Against Oath is really key, as you board out the Null Rods and Shamans.  However, Null Rod hurts against the others, and if I have null rod down, I need to find a way to kill it to activate the cap.

However, I've also been thinking about doing 2x Lightning Bolt as well.

Basically, spheres hurt sideboard options.

[vroman]

unfortunately Ive been on a losing steak lately. I played in 3 power tournaments in the last month and failed to make cut in all. I assure you its my own fault for various reasons, and not the deck's fault.
Ive been playing this lock set up
4 smoky
4 chalice
4 crucible
3 uba
3 nrod
3 resistor
2 dup
2 monkey
1 tsphere

I would like to play 4 resistors, but like mentioned above, its not worth cutting second dup or shaman for. doubling the chances of drawing monkey or dup has a much higher marginal value, than increasing resistor frequency by one third. the only logical way to include resistor#4 is to drop one copy of another lock. assume 3 is the minimum for lock pieces, leaving me to choose from smoky, chalice and crucible.
crucible is undoubtedly the artifact I most enjoy having in play (except perhaps turn 1 trisphere). ubastax is the only deck that runs quads crucible, and thats bc crucible is so many things for this deck. mana denial; spot removal; win condition; draw engine. I will never play fewer than 4.
chalice of the void has a very fast depreciation clock. it is only valuable if deployed early; the longer you wait, the less its worth. thus I place a priority on seeing it in every opening hand, so of course I must run 4. to play only 3 chalice means I would greatly decrease odds of double chalice openings, which I prefer to trinisphere.
last up: smokestack. after a lot of thought, I am actually considering trading out smokestack#4 for resistor#4. cutting a smokestack seems antithetical to any stax deck, yet resistor is much easier to cast, and smokestack becomes easier to resolve w a resistor in play, that disrupts counter magic. I am more likely to hurt the game plan of the enemy by drawing a lot of resistors and a single smoky. resistor drops immediately, wheras smoky frequently gets cycled to bazaar to find mana.

for those who complain the win is too slow, you simply need to practice enough w the deck that decisions are automatic and you will never have to worry about time. the last time I had a match draw due to time, I was still inexperienced w stax.

I also have been underwhelmed by pyroblast lately. it sticks out as distinctly nonsynergistic w the whole plan of the deck. ubastax wants to tap out every turn and play constant threats, dumping its hand on the table, or saving up to frequently use bazaar and keeping a low hand count. pyroblast goes against every one of these inclinations; instead requiring mana held open during enemy turn; holding a card that is not a threat; keeping certain cards in hand; and reducing efficiency of bazaar. then theres the issue of chalice conflict and non-shop mana, which doomed GRuba. I hesitated to include it originaly, but its an easy answer to gifts.
redblast is real good against gifts, esp to stop mass bounce. however also good against gifts is graveyard hate and mana denial. my current board is this
4 pblast
4 maze ith
3 visheretic
2 tormod crypt
1 duplicant
1 jester cap

without tinker, singleton j-cap is questionable, since its best against combo and oath; matches which are decided heavily on opening hand. dropping pblast would majorly shake up composition of the board in several possible directions
4 mazith
4 t-crypt
3 heretic
2 dup
2 jcap

this majorly hates on yawg will decks, but the nrod conflict starts being a major issue.
for more workshop/aggro oriented

4 mazith
4 fiery temper
3 heretic
2 tormod
2 dup

fiery temper is something Id very much like to run. currently, even w boarding I am still relying on just b-ring and duplicant to win welder wars; wars which I am frequently losing. I will probably go with something like the second example. this board opens itself a little too much to gifts. perhaps 3xtormod instead of dup#4.

[Polynomial P]

I had settled on a maindeck list identical to vroman's, but came to that decision independently of him (see like 6 posts up).

My sideboard is as follows:

3 pyroblast
3 Heretic
2 duplicant
1 sphere of resistance
3 Maze of Ith
1 J-cap
2 Tormod's Crypt

This deck got me a mox pearl as I split with PucktheCat in the finals at the most recent power tournament at Ogre's Cards. The kill is fine as none of my matches went to time. I will try and have some semblance of a tournament report posted, but I didnt take good notes.

I also agree that pyroblast is suboptimal. I didnt even side them in against slaver since I hoped to get Chalice @1.

[yespuhyren]

The biggest problem with Jester's Cap is the dissynergy with Null Rod.  I was talking to DicemanX about running 2/3 of them about a month or so ago, and we both liked the idea, but I found that too often Null Rod would completely shut it down.