Uba Stax - pseudo primer

[benthetenor]

I suggested the green splash after about 200 games (seriously) of extensive playtesting.  Vroman's been wanting it in the deck since it's creation.

It seriously makes every single matchup better, and it's sometimes (it's happened to me at least three times now) where drawing fastbond could have been the only thing that would have saved me.

I didn't get fastbond any of those times, but still.

I can't think of any times where having a taiga instead of a mountain detrimented me.  Wastelands are almost always reserved for bazaars or workshops, and I play 4 taigas instead of Vroman's 3. (no 4th b-ring).

I'm also currently doing a 1 chasm/1 duplicant MainDeck, just to improve my chances of getting it so I can test it out.

I'm probably going to move it to the board, and make the 2nd duplicant the 4th b-ring, although I might opt for the exact list Vroman is running right now.

I don't like having 5/2 (lotus and emerald included, which are null-rod dullable), and would much rather have 4/2 with taigas, 6/2 with lotus and emerald included.

I can respect people who don't opt for the green splash on terms of consistency, but the potential brokenness AND synergy of the green splash is something too hard for me to resist.

I have only gotten screwed one time having a green card in my hand that I could not cast in the next turn or so, (in 200 games).  Granted, sometimes the card was fastbond, so I would bazaar with a crucible out, just hoping to get some kind of green mana to cast fastbond and go broken because I was playtesting.  6/2 ratio is really good.

I'm definitely not saying that green doesn't belong in the deck. I just ask that you make sure you don't come to rely on the techy fastbond/crop rotation to the detriment of the deck's already strong gameplan. As you said, there have been times when fastbond would win the game, but you didn't rip it. That's going to be the case about 97% of the time. I still need to test it myself, if I ever get off my ass and do some testing.

[b-tings]

I know Vroman dismissed the Blue Splash as inferior to Green, and I'm sure he's tested it extensively, otherwise he wouldn't mention it at all. I'm curious, though, as to whether anyone has tried a black splash for some combination of:

Vampiric Tutor
Imperial Seal
Demonic Tutor
Demonic Consultation (this seems stronger here than in other Shop decks because of the presence of Bazaar)
Yawgmoth's Will
Darkblast (from the board?)

I know tutors are nothing terribly exciting, especially in an already consistent deck with few one-ofs to fetch, but is there some merit to adding more redundancy/consistency to the mix? What about altering the deck to set up powerful artifact one-ofs with Bazaar/Welder (blah blah blah win-more. There are plenty of times when Bazaar/Welder is going and you're just milling redundant lock parts anyways. Between Chalice, Null Rod, Scuba Mask, and Crucible, there are plenty of times when Bazaaring won't add anything to the mix. Even redundant Smokestacks beyond the second add very little to the game plan. Plus, it's almost an excuse for me to put Possessed Portal back into the deck.). Darkblast seems stronger here than in most decks with 4 x Welder 4 x Crucible. And Yawgmoth's Will is Yawgmoth's Will, even in Stax, probably the least equipped deck to abuse it.

[vroman]

the only cards on that list Id really be interested in are darkblast and yawg will. d-consult is a close third. the problem w adding colors is that there are so few cuttable slots. adding green only brought in two cards, and even that was hard to fit. running black instead of green, still only realisticaly nets me a few cards, and I have to decide if d-blast and y-will are better than fbond and cropper. in this deck the two best green cards are better than the two best black cards.

[PucktheCat]

I have only gotten screwed one time having a green card in my hand that I could not cast in the next turn or so, (in 200 games).

If this is accurate you have been extraordinarily lucky.  This deck tosses up hands with no color sources at all pretty frequently.  It would be very strange indeed if under game conditions you got green cards without a source that rarely.  In my testing this problem has come up rarely but significantly.

Leo

[pyr0ma5ta]

Yes, but there's also only 2 green cards in the deck.

[vroman]

the fewer the cards and relative mana actually increases the odds of color screw. for example your much more likely to be stuck wo the right mana if you have 1 blue card and 1 blue source than if you have 7 blue cards and 7 blue sources, even though the ratios are the same. thus even though I have 2 green cards and 3-6 green sources(depending on build and null rod), the odds of missing green mana are more likely than missing red with 7 red cards and 7-9 red sources. the green ratio is better, but more hit or miss bc theres fewer in the deck

[nataz]

I'm not sold on the black tutors, the deck digs pretty well with bazaar tricks.

Really, the two cards I would be most interested in adding are p-portal and Tinker.

I particularly don't like will that much because of bazaar, and Null rod.

[Buttons]

As you said, there have been times when fastbond would win the game, but you didn't rip it.

Although it's a 1/53 chance (or whatever the library was at the time, I think it was like, 46 left)

That's a 2% chance of ripping it.

Fastbond still would have saved me the game.  If I didn't have fastbond in there, it'd be 0%.

I have only gotten screwed one time having a green card in my hand that I could not cast in the next turn or so, (in 200 games).

If this is accurate you have been extraordinarily lucky.  This deck tosses up hands with no color sources at all pretty frequently.  It would be very strange indeed if under game conditions you got green cards without a source that rarely.  In my testing this problem has come up rarely but significantly.

200 is probably an exaggeration.  I just checked my records, and I actually wrote down the testing 49 games, and I did around that same number (and maybe a little less, like 30) 3 times, so it'd probably be more accurate to say 120-140.

Also, some of my writings are like this:

Game 41:  Cool Sit (situation):  HAND:  Dup(licant), Stax, (fast)bond, shop j.d. (just drawn), b-ring  BOARD IMP: (important):  Bazaar, Crucible, Welder, Strip.  ACTION: Tapazaar, taiga, taiga.  discard stax, shop, taiga.  play hand, strip all their lands, waste bazaar, replay bazaar, tapazaar, SHAMAN taiga. (no. 3, wtf?)  discard everything 'cept shaman, eat all their artifacts.  win shortly.

I'm going to take out the Chasm main and add in a Duplicant.  Chasm's been inefficent first game more than Duplicant.

I might go up to 4 B-rings, though.  Like I've said before, I've been VERY happy with the 4 Taiga/3 B-ring, although I would probably like to see B-ring more often than Duplicant.

In fact, I would almost always be more happy.  So I'm gonna do that right now.  I'm also probably going to switch to a more similar sideboard to Vromans, although in my recent playtesting, Fiery Temper has been really good against anything packing heretic, but sub-par against everything else.

My sideboard (and Vromans) is so mind-boggingly diverse.  It's probably the best sideboard in magic because it deals with EVERYTHING.  There's not one deck that gets around a complete hoser in our sideboard.

btw, Vroman, I'm definitely staying at 4 heretic and never going down.  They're just too good.

[benthetenor]

As you said, there have been times when fastbond would win the game, but you didn't rip it.

Although it's a 1/53 chance (or whatever the library was at the time, I think it was like, 46 left)

That's a 2% chance of ripping it.

Fastbond still would have saved me the game.  If I didn't have fastbond in there, it'd be 0%.

Fine. I said you'd lose 97%, when in actuality it's 98%. That's why saying "Drawing <<insert restricted card>> here would totally win me the game!" is inane. For all intents and purposes, 2% might as well be 0%. Prohibitively more often than not, it won't happen. Restricted cards should augment your strategy rather than being the basis of said strategy, unless you have the infrastructure (4-5 tutors and a substantial draw engine) to implement it. This is my main problem with splashing for restricted cards; Jeopardizing mana for two cards, as well as putting the danger of uncastable cards in your hand all for something that cannot be consistantly drawn and implemented. However, Vroman has not claimed any significant troubles, so it's apparently not present in his build. Besides which, watching Vroman play, the splash is a simple augmentation of strategy, which is much more acceptable than basis. And the danger of dead cards is much less existant in a deck with 4 Bazaar of Baghdad.

Essentially, you can ignore everything I've said besides the snarky comments, which I think are funny.

[Buttons]

What's up with this:

This is my main problem with splashing for restricted cards; Jeopardizing mana for two cards, as well as putting the danger of uncastable cards in your hand all for something that cannot be consistantly drawn and implemented.

Okay, side note:  aren't both parts of your sentence the exact same argument?  If not, please explain.

However, Vroman has not claimed any significant troubles, so it's apparently not present in his build.

?

Does your second sentence answer your first?  Is it cool now - because Vroman's not been announcing troubles in his build?

What's your problem?  Obviously if he and I aren't having problems with the manabase, there's not a whole lot of room for complaint.

I'm serious:  What's your problem?  How are comments like,

Essentially, you can ignore everything I've said besides the snarky comments, which I think are funny.

helpful at all?

I mean, did you expect to try to outwit me somehow, or possibly explain your area of expertise with this little quip?

Moreover, Vroman uses less green mana sources than I do.  Which might, in some circumstances, explain why I've almost never had a problem with the green cards.  Plus, if you really need something else, you can just pitch them to bazaar.  It's not like they're ever a dead card in this deck.  It might, in other circumstances, prove to make you look bad.

Did you really want me to explain to you why green isn't a problem in the deck?  I thought I already did that.  What other parts could you possibly be speaking of?

All you've said is:  "There might be a problem casting green cards" 4 times in different ways.

I, as well as Vroman (Vroman even did simple math to explain that 1/1 is worse than 7/7), have already explained to you having 5 or 6 green mana sources is well fine enough for two broken cards.

Moreover, in my opening post on this thread (I believe, although I'm not going back all that way to check, it might have been my second or third) explained the versatility, capability, and synergy of those two green cards.

Besides which, watching Vroman play, the splash is a simple augmentation of strategy, which is much more acceptable than basis. And the danger of dead cards is much less existant in a deck with 4 Bazaar of Baghdad.

I've been saying that all along...  especially the 'augmentation of strategy.'  I don't know if you only read that one post I posted about the chasm combo, but that's the only way I can explain you missing stuff like this:

Quote from ME:

It seriously makes every single matchup better, and it's sometimes (it's happened to me at least three times now) where drawing fastbond could have been the only thing that would have saved me.

Or this little gem:

It's just a possibility.  Fastbond improves opening hands and wins you the game if you get it out.  Having another must-counter 1cc target for decks is ALWAYS a good thing.

Crop rotation just wins you the game alot of times.  It's your 5th Bazaar and 2nd Strip Mine.

Are you sure I'M the one who's missing what people have been saying?

Moreover, not only has Vroman flat out disagreed with you on Fastbond being a win-more card, "I personally feel that they are both win-more cards," Vroman's reply:  "fastbond is definitely not win more. here are 3 reasonable situations where it wins the game when you otherwise might not" but it's sad that you would try to somehow say that because you talk 'with its creator often' that you're somehow more knowledgeable.

I completely agree with Vroman on the matter.  Sometimes I've had an absolutely explosive opening hand, consisting of crucible/fastbond/workshop/taiga/wasteland/bazaar/welder action.  (which is pretty broken, and also, btw, each of those are FOUR OFS in my deck, except Fastbond.)

Also, that hand is good because you can mill alot to Welder for next turn, btw.  Like, trying to eventually get down an Uba Mask to swap for your crucible (or luckily drawn) mox.  Oh yeah, the crucible/fastbond/wasteland thing is nice too.

Being able to go down to like, 12 life, have five cards in the yard, be switching to an uba mask next turn for more brokenness, and having all those cards down first turn = good.

I probably would have mulliganed that hand away, had it not been with fastbond, but instead, it improved it to the point of gamebreaking.

Anyway, this is one of your quotes from the beginning of this argument:

The part that bothers me the most is trying to warp the deck around a single restricted card. It's fine to add it in, but taking out more consistant strategies to add more explosive ones based upon a single restricted card does not add to the strength of the deck, it's consistency.

We're in complete agreement here.  I've said on other threads (and maybe on this one) that UbaStax's strength lies in being the most consistent deck in the format.  That's not to say that when I have a black lotus in my opening hand (of which, Vroman has rightly compared FASTBOND to), that the deck is being erratic, inconsistent (as I only have one of them) and somehow bad.

But then you throw some kind of fastball wizardry:

The times that you draw the Fastbond will be very much outweighed by the times you do not.

Seriously, what does that even mean?  If I don't draw Fastbond, than it doesn't hurt me. 

What would I be drawing instead of the fastbond that would be detrimental to the deck?  NOTHING, because everything is a 3 of by nature, a 4 of by demand, or a 1 of by restriction.  We took out a Solemn and a Uba, 3 mountains, and added in the taigas and the green cards in question.

Am I being detrimented that much more by drawing a taiga than a mountain because of wasteland?  Because I'm pretty sure not only do I have crucible in my deck, but there are far better wasteland targets.

With 4 Taigas, a Mox Emerald, and a Lotus, as well as a SEVEN CARD OPENING HAND, and Bazaars, it is not that hard to cast the two, single, solitary, unique, restricted, one-of-a-kind spells in the deck and then abuse them wildly.  You can't abuse Solemn wildly.  Plus, he's as uncastable as smokestack.  Fastbond not only cuts down on your reliance on workshop (which is good, fyi, btw) but it also is broken, and easier to hardcast.

The whole reason Solemn was in the deck was the mirror match, which it dominated in.  Honestly, what would you rather have more on your board:  Solemn, or Fastbond.  If you answered the latter, you'd be correct.  Btw, I'm the suggester of the green splash - look at the primer and read the part about the green splash, Vroman says that I've been talking to him about it and saying that the results were amazing.

Fastbond wins you games, and it's not hard to get out.  End of story.

If you want to try to start a flame war, you can do it over PMs.  I'd be willing to try to talk with you.

[benthetenor]

Seriously, calm down buddy. My last post ended with me agreeing with you. Sometimes I think so much that I end up flipping my views on the subject. I'm not going to change my opinions on the dangers of building strategies on restricted cards and screwing up mana bases, but I no longer see a problem with it in this particular deck.  I'm not sure where this flame came from, and if you still want to flame me again at the end of this post, I suppose it's your prerogative.

The sentence you quoted from me at the beginning of the post was not worded as clearly as I'd liked. It should have said something to the effect of: Jeopardizing the mana-base for a mere two cards, as well as creating the possibility of having dead cards in your hand as a result of the less stable and multi-colored mana base, all for the sake of a gameplan that might not materialize most games does not seem like the right move.

I'm sorry if I seem very authoritative on the subject. I played the deck to a 13th place finish at Gencon, and I do in fact talk to/play with Vroman pretty much every time I'm up at his shop. I feel that I have the credentials to speak about the deck, both it's theory and it's construction, though if you disagree, I guess that's you're prerogative too.

And the "snarky comments" comment was basically for everyone except for you. I thought they'd find it funny. I really didn't think you would.

[vroman]

I'm the suggester of the green splash

not entirely true. you did the first testing w RG bc I was too busy the past few months to play much magic, however I was discussing adding green long before you started messaging me. I dont want to be an asshole about insisting on credit for things, but I will point out contradictions. you have done a lot of good work that Ive listened to and grateful for.

[zergwrong]

One question regarding Fiery Temper,

When we compare it to Lightning Bolt, isn't Bolt superior?

When comparing, Temper is "only" better than Bolt with a Bazzar in play (+1 card advantage for Bazzar).

However, when Bazzar is the main draw engine in the deck, how often would it get wasted?

And had there been any trouble with Tempers 1RR cc in testing?

Thank you.

[Komatteru]

One question regarding Fiery Temper,

When we compare it to Lightning Bolt, isn't Bolt superior?

When comparing, Temper is "only" better than Bolt with a Bazzar in play (+1 card advantage for Bazzar).

However, when Bazzar is the main draw engine in the deck, how often would it get wasted?

And had there been any trouble with Tempers 1RR cc in testing?

Thank you.

Two simple things to consider: Chalice at 1 and Barbarian Ring already effectively takes RR to use.

[b-tings]

Two simple things to consider: Chalice at 1 and Barbarian Ring already effectively takes RR to use.

Chalice definately does NOT have an effective cost of RR. Shops and off-colour moxen work.

Your comparison also only works in regards to welder, which is not bolt's primary purpose. Neither of the cards you mentioned deal with Heretic.

[Komatteru]

Two simple things to consider: Chalice at 1 and Barbarian Ring already effectively takes RR to use.

Chalice definately does NOT have an effective cost of RR. Shops and off-colour moxen work.

Your comparison also only works in regards to welder, which is not bolt's primary purpose. Neither of the cards you mentioned deal with Heretic.

Since you weren't smart enough to figure this out yourself (or read what I wrote):
1) Chalice at 1 in play means you cannot resolve Lightning Bolt, since it costs R to play.  Fiery Temper has a mana cost of 1RR, so if there is Chalice @ 1 in play, it is not countered by Chalice @ 1, despite being able to be played at a madness cost of R.  Since Chalice @ 1 is a desirable play against decks with Welder, it's not so good to bring in answers to Welder that roll over to your primary plan against Welder.

2) Since Barbarian Ring is one of the sources of red mana in the deck, and you need an additional source of red mana to activate a Barbarian Ring once you have threshold, that makes the effective cost of using Ring RR.

I have no idea why you mention Heretic.  Temper does 3 damage.  Heretic is 1/3.

Understand now?

[Buttons]

I'm the suggester of the green splash

not entirely true. you did the first testing w RG bc I was too busy the past few months to play much magic, however I was discussing adding green long before you started messaging me. I dont want to be an asshole about insisting on credit for things, but I will point out contradictions. you have done a lot of good work that Ive listened to and grateful for.

I'm cool with that.  I assumed that you were aching to have fastbond in the deck, and you even gave a few comments about it in our PMing, which is why I started testing it, and then when I realized it was the bomb, testing it extensively, really.

I just meant that I suggested that the green splash was actually viable.  I assumed that if you thought it was in any way viable, you would have been playing it already. 

You get the credit.  Nobody's gonna take that away from you.  Fastbond was your tech.

About Temper with B-tings/JD:

Temper hasn't been as amazing for me as I'd like it to be.  I need a high number of them in the deck for them to function well (as having one is really random and not helpful at all), as in, at least three, (so I can play like I'm expecting them) and while the sideboard is probably the most versatile in the format with regard to what we really need to worry about (that is, it can't splash for all the different colors, but you can put like, 1,000,000 good cards in that handle a variety of different decks), it's not as liquid as water.

Temper is good, and 1RR really isn't a huge problem to hardcast, and ripping off a bazaar is tech, but the sad thing is picking it up when you have an ubazaar engine in play, don't have a fastbond out yet, rip bazaar/workshop, play another bazaar, (while you only have RR, or 2R, or colorless mana/workshop mana out) and rip a temper (or worse, two, which has happened to me once).  I suppose it's like ripping a land, but anything else in the sideboard would be great, like Heretic.

I'm not disappointed, I'm just...sigh.  I wish it were 2R to cast instead of 1RR.

For me, it's almost been like the ubazaar engine and temper are really dissynergistic, but I admit in my playtesting, I seem to have gotten the ubazaar engine out like, constantly.

I've been testing lightning bolt, and bolt has been better than temper ODDLY ENOUGH, but again, I'm getting the ubazaar engine out like crazy.

Chalice for 1 is huge, but it's really huge against decks that bolt is next to useless against.

In my testing, against alot of decks, chalice for 1/bolt isn't really a big issue.

Bolt is REALLY good against slaver.  In the mirror, I'd much rather have temper, though.  It all depends.

In my testing, I've always been keeping in mind if something would be better as bolt or as temper, and it seems like about 60% of the time, I'd rather have bolt,

But first of all, that goes against good logic, and second of all, I've been getting into situations that aren't common.  In general, I think temper is better, even though my testing has shown otherwise.

Heretic is the only reason either of these cards are talked about, and if you don't see any in your meta, you shouldn't even consider Temper or Bolt.

[nataz]

Okay, we've covered the idea that Null Rod, MoxMonkey, and Chalice all play similar roles in the deck. I think foremost, I use chalice as mana denial, i.e., another way to beat moxen turn 1. I often times find myself holding back on setting it for 1, and my favorite number is obviously two. Failing the auto 0cc or 2cc play, I mostly find myself holding chalice to counter specific hate (i.e., 3 against R&R or rebuild)

The thing is, I'm starting to like chalice less and less. I really want to add more monkeys (currently at two) to the deck, and I already have 4 welders, crop, fastbond. With out adding anything else, I'm looking at 8 1cc cards. I'm also looking hard at demonic consult, vamp, and imp seal, demonic, and darkblast. 1 extra monkey, plus at least two of the black cards = 11 1cc cards total => a significant amount of tension. Funtionaly, a turn 1 null rod is actauly better then a turn 1 chalice (tinker aside), and with 4 MWS, and a full set of artifact mana, it shoudn't be that hard to accomplish it if you draw it. Realizing that by taking out the chalice, you would lessen your first turn chance against moxen, I would recomend at least upping the null rod count by 1 to a full total of 4. 

I've added green to the deck, and haven't looked back, and now that I have, I am sorely temped to add black. Green added so much to the deck, at the cost of so little, could black offer similar results? For starters, running the black tutors means your are running X more crop rotation and fastbond, which is decidedly hott.

I think if we pursue more colors, we are eventualy going to have to drop the chalice, or else risk running into the 5-color stax syndrom as our casting costs become more diverse. Rainbow lands would also have to take the place of the 4 taigas, but I'm still not much more worried about casting my spells then I am for getting RR for the rings. 

1 potential idea for a decklist would be similar to the RG/chasm versions, except

- 1 dupe
- 4 chalice

+ 1 Darkblast (if CS is on the rise, welder is going to become a more common threat)
+ 1 monkey (to help make up for the loss of chalice, and to act in combonation with your own welders vs. opp board)
+ 1 Null Rod (less chalice, more rod)
+ 2 black tutors (I think vamp and Demonic would be my first choice, however both consult and imp have their respective strg in this deck)

something else of note is the SB options you gain from a 5 color base, definatly something to consider.

what do people think about 5 color versions?  Are they viable, and how are they different from the more common mono-red and GR versions.

[b-tings]

Since you weren't smart enough to figure this out yourself (or read what I wrote):
1) Chalice at 1 in play means you cannot resolve Lightning Bolt, since it costs R to play.  Fiery Temper has a mana cost of 1RR, so if there is Chalice @ 1 in play, it is not countered by Chalice @ 1, despite being able to be played at a madness cost of R.  Since Chalice @ 1 is a desirable play against decks with Welder, it's not so good to bring in answers to Welder that roll over to your primary plan against Welder.

2) Since Barbarian Ring is one of the sources of red mana in the deck, and you need an additional source of red mana to activate a Barbarian Ring once you have threshold, that makes the effective cost of using Ring RR.

I have no idea why you mention Heretic.  Temper does 3 damage.  Heretic is 1/3.

Understand now?

So you quoted his comparison of cards to...talk about cards with different functions? Nice play.

You still haven't explained how Chalice has an "effective cost of RR."

EDIT

OK, I figured out what you are trying to say, so don't bother explaining that part to me. Instead, explain how the function of Barbarian Ring under a Chalice for one is two things.

[Buttons]

what do people think about 5 color versions?  Are they viable, and how are they different from the more common mono-red and GR versions.

It's a great idea, and could potentially be the future of ubastax.  A 5c build "Bazaar Stax" without uba mask just won a huge tourney, and that build was, as Vroman very well put, no where near to optimal.

Null Rod is my fav. too.

With additional tutors, we need less barbarian rings.  Think about lowering the count to 3, or 2.  Going down to 1 is just asking for trouble, unless 1 darkblast is run main.

If we're going to run a bunch of different colors, then we need more rainbow lands.  I'll start a new thread on the subject in your honor, nataz.

[goblinkid]

stax = bum crap. it gets owned by goblins . im not just saying that it does. u have no answers to the 4 rack and ruin i side in or when i combo
i tested a 5-15 match and i won 15 times dupicant isnt ur answer to every big creature becaue when fat man hits its over !!!!!!!!!! if a deack uses tinker fatman i think they use counter spells if i was playing cs and i found my self a 6 mana mana drain i would sing a song with joy. also barbarian ring is not good! by the time u have threshold and the damage u have taken from my gobs and ur land ull be thinking differntly about uba sux

-rich

Welcome to TMD! Our forum rules are here: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=18027.0
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-Jacob

[miss_bun]

I really, really like green for crop rotation and fastbond (as mentioned earlier,) but living wish is pretty great in the deck too; it lets you have a few key creatures in the sideboard (along with certain lands,) and those cards in the sideboard leave more room in the deck to smooth out the colored mana.  Of course, I have a much smalelr metagame to worry about, so it may not be such a great idea overall.  But it works for me. 

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Living wish is an amazing idea. I've thought about adding it to 5c bazaar stax for a long while, but never had the balls to do it. Care to share testing results? Living wish seems hot, as it grabs:

Shaman
Heretic
Chasm
Maze
Bazaar (assuming you run 3 MD)
Barbarian Ring
Duplicant
Triskelion

I think it'd be neat to run a Rg uba stax deck with 3 MD bazaar and 3 MD barbarian ring, leaving room for the 4th tundra and possibly another artifact accelerant.

The problem is, you have to butcher your board, and find space in the MD to fit them in.

As far as the green splash goes, crop rotation is fucking retarded. It's MUCH better than mask #4. As for fastbond, it hasn't done shit in testing so far. The deck only need 1 colored source and 4 mana to operate, so dropping additional lands isn't all that hot. strip lock is amazing, but it's a 3 card combo built around 2 restricted cards. I understand that Vroman plays in a stax heavy environment, so I can see fastbond being good there. But then again, is it better than solemn? Solemn produces permanent advantage and gets you the colored mana you need. It has been nothing short of amazing when I played the deck. Fastbond, on the other hand, has been less than stellar.

As much as I love crop rotation, I'm still leaning towards mono-red uba stax. Having an unwasteable red source is pretty sauce vs. the mirror and I'm generally pleased with solemn.

[Buttons]

Fastbond is the shizzle.

On a separate note, here's a funny idea - GRBubastax with fetchlands:

I don't seriously plan on playing this, but it's an interesting idea.  I thought of it after vroman was talking about a RUB build with fetchlands.

9 RESTRICTED MANA
9 Sol Ring/Mana Crypt/Mana Vault/Lotus/Moxes

22 LANDS
4 mishra's workshop
4 wasteland
4 bazaar of baghdad
2 bloodstained mire
1 wooded foothills
1 taiga
2 badlands
1 barbarian ring
1 tolarian academy
1 strip mine
1 glacial chasm
31 so far

17 LOCKS
1 trinisphere
4 smokestack
4 chalice of the void
3 crucible of worlds
3 null rod
2 uba mask

48 so far

6 CREATURES
4 goblin welder
2 gorilla shaman

54 so far

6 GREEN/BLACK BOMBS
1 fastbond
1 crop rotation
1 demonic tutor
1 demonic consultation
1 vampiric tutor
1 imperial seal

60.

I'm running 4 fastbonds.  Regular, DT, VT, and IS.    Anything else I need is covered there too.

[miss_bun]

The deck I'm currently running is this:

lands ~21

2x barbarian ring
3x bazaar of baghdad
4x mishra's workshop
1x strip mine
4x taiga
1x tolarian academy
3x wasteland
3x wooded foothills

manafacts ~9

1x black lotus
1x mana crypt
1x mana vault
5x power moxie
1x sol ring

other artifacts ~18

4x chalice of the void
3x crucible of worlds
3x null rod
4x smokestack
1x trinisphere
3x uba mask

creatures ~5

3x goblin welder
1x gorilla shaman
1x karn, silver golem

spells ~7

1x crop rotation
1x fastbond
4x living wish
1x wheel of fortune

sideboard ~15

1x barbarian ring
1x bazaar of baghdad
1x duplicant
1x goblin welder
1x gorilla shaman
1x karn, silver golem
4x red elemental blast/pyroblast
3x tormod's crypt
1x viashino heretic
1x wasteland

Most of its pretty obvious, and much better explained by Mr. Vroman than anything I could attempt.  The main advantage of living wish is that it allows you more room in the deck, since you can take out a bunch of creatures and lands.  The main problem I've been wrestling with is whether or not I should have tagle wire in the deck instead of null rod, and then if null rod should go to the sideboard in place of tormod's crypt, or REB, blah blah blah into infinity.  But my meta is forgiving enough that I've decided to ignore the problem lol.  I've also thought about making room for riftstone portal, but I'm not sure I need it.  My current experiment is taking every creature but the 3 goblin welders out of the deck to make room for... something lol.  I actually had pretty good luck with gamble, but I ended up cutting it, not because it was bad, but simply because it isn't as good as other stuff that can go in the deck.  But if bazaar of baghdad randomly gets restricted, those gambles are going right back in, i promise.   

EDIT: I've had a lot of grief thinking about bazaar and workshop.  I've seriously thought about keeping 4 each of bazaar and workshop in the deck, or sideboarding 1 each, but i think one sideboarded bazaar and no sideboarded workshops is the way to go.

[b-tings]

While I think Living Wish is a good card (not necessarily optimal, but it has enoug interesting interactions to not be dismissed), 4 is definately too many. It's not something you want to be casting early or often. It serves as a utility card to find a missing piece of the puzzle AFTER the other pieces are in place. In Stax, you can't afford to lose that tempo early. I would suggest going down to two. Also, you should probably have a Glacial Chasm somewhere in the sideboard.

I do think you're bang on on your Shop and Bazaar numbers, though.

What other interesting creatures/lands could conceivably be placed in the sideboard? I'm always antsy to have an Eternal Witness wherever there's a Living Wish, but GG seems like a little bit much for this mana base.

[Buttons]

I'm just putting up stuff I have problems with:

2x barbarian ring
1x strip mine
1x tolarian academy
3x wasteland
3x wooded foothills

3x crucible of worlds

3x goblin welder
1x karn, silver golem

4x living wish

SB:
3x tormod's crypt
1x viashino heretic
1x wasteland

Okay.  I'm gonna comment on why I think these are the wrong numbers.


2x barbarian ring  (I, personally, would have 3 MD, none SB.)
1x strip mine  (Why is this MD?  This should totally be SB, as you then have four chances of getting it.)
1x tolarian academy  (I debate whether this should be in the SB or not.  You're probably going to be fetching bazaar/strip, but this is a better living wish target than workshop).
3x wasteland  (You should trade your strip mine for another wasteland.  3 is just too small).
3x wooded foothills  (This seems too many, with you already running 4 taiga.  I'd go down to 2, and possibly think about turning down the Taiga count to 3.  You find one regularly in your opening hand or with a bazaar.  I'd run 6 green sources, probably 4 taiga/2 fetch)

3x crucible of worlds  (You need 4.)

3x goblin welder  (You need 4.)
1x karn, silver golem  (You don't need this guy in the MD.)

4x living wish  (I'd go down to 3 with this particular build).

SB:
3x tormod's crypt   (WAY TOO MANY)
1x viashino heretic  (WAY TOO LITTLE)  You want three or four so you can keep one in the sideboard and side in others.
1x wasteland  (As explained above, this should be a strip mine.)

No Chasm in the SB?

[miss_bun]

Those are all pretty good arguments, and I'm certainly open to suggestions, as i hardly think of my deck as "finished."  Especially if guildpact has any fun surprises.   

btw, happy new to everyone!

As for barbarian ring, this card *rocks* in the sideboard.  The only thing I wish for more often is a goblin welder (if I need it) or a bazaar (If I'm running low on graveyard stuff and/or have uba mask out.)  Don't forget that with fastbond and crucible of worlds out, barbarian ring = nighty night (usually,) and it is still really great against a lot of decks even without fastbond.  It might be good to have three in the main deck, but one in the sideboard is awesome.  I don't pretend to be an expert on stax, but I've wished for barbarian ring too many times to take it out.  As u said however, I think this is more about personal choice than anything else; its just more fun to kill with lands than anything else.  (The trick of course is to know when *not* to wish for barbarian ring even if you have the other two pieces in play, something probably too complicated for me to explain very well.)

strip mine: youre probably right, but I think I might end up taking it and wasteland out of the sideboard altogether.  Since it doesnt one shot kill anyone, it probably would be better just having 5 in the main deck for consistency.  Then again, maybe not.  So its either 1 strip in the sideboard, or none.

tolarian academy: while I eventually decided that a sideboarded mana source was counterproductive, I didn't think of tolarian academy for some reason.  But youre right; if any mana was going to be sideboarded, it should've been this.

wooded foothills: yeah, 3 is too many.

goblin welder: welder is obviously great, but playing one on the first turn is not super important, especially when the trade off to sideboarding one is that I'm almost assured one if I need it later, so I prefer to have one to wish for.  This way I also end up with two in play at once more often than I would otherwise, which is almost always a lock unless they have an answer to one or both welders, or if I'm already in the middle of losing when he comes into play.

Karn doesn't *need* to be in the deck, but I like him.  This is the only card I'm probably keeping in the deck that I don't have a very articulate argument for.   

I agree that I should probably go down to three wishes.  Its just a holdover from when I tried to make the deck mono green with arcbound ravagers and myr retrievers in place of welders (I know, I know.)

tormod's crypt: this card is great against gifts, which I see a lot of, and its pretty good against oath, dragon, and opposing stax.  I can't remember drawing a tormod's crypt I didn't put to good use (although I'm open to suggestions if you have any specific ideas for a replacement.)

As for viashino heretic:  I'd love to have more of these guys in the deck, and I probably can now that I've made a few tweaks.

@ eternal witness:  this card would probably be awesome (or at least decent) in a mono green version of the deck, but I really don't see casting it a lot in this deck as it is.  Honestly, I haven't tried it tho.

Thanks for the thoughts tings and buttons, I'll let yall know how it goes.   

[vroman]

re living wish
having 4x d-tutors in a deck is swell, but since they cant get me crucible, and they require my most broken lands to be in the sideboard, Id rather not go this route. also the mana base has to be changed substantially to support that much green, as your list shows. theres nothing nearly as useful as b-ring that produces green, and going back to having a mana base thats simply, well, mana, is distincly unappealing.
wish based sideboards are only worth it in dedicated combo like gifts or long. utility wish boards like in old tog and 4cc are not very efficient.
I would certainly discourage e-witness or anything w GG cost

[pyr0ma5ta]

I liked the idea of Living Wish as it certainly has great synergy with the broken lands and utility creatures...but one of the strongest selling points of vroman's RG list is that it has huge sideboard versatility.  A wishboard = no sideboard versatility.  Also, by running the wish, you make the rest of the lands less powerful.  I think I like having a more consistent mainboard.