(Article and updated Primer) How to play control slaver now.

[Zomar]

Gifts takes FAR less Playskill to play right than this Control Slaver list.  MY teammate uses Gifts and when I handed him my CS list he didn't no what to do.  They are similar but Gifts can be picked up goldfished a couple of times and then its common sense on what the play is.  Learning to play Gifts flawlessly is much easier than playing control Slaver flawlessly also.

Frankly both decks are very complicated. I want to believe what you said here but at the same time, I know the teammate you are talking about isn't someone I would call a skilled type one player. He's learning, but it's mostly from me and you. He only knows what he's been told, he doesn't actively read online.

I don't know which deck is more complicated, because I haven't played them enough, however gifts seems easier to pick up and play. It's gameplan is more straightforward, whereas CS seems to have several different things going on at once. I think the decks are so close to being the same, that it's simply a matter of playstyle on which to play, not that one is strictly better than the other. Despite everyone's desire to make a deck perfect, it's never going to happen because a players skill must be taken into account, and that throws all logic out of the window.

[Hi-Val]

I never remember Rich Saying DSC was essential ever, if anything I remember him saying that if your running Welders DSC is really bad and garbage.  I have never liked DSC mainboard in any deck I've played and never found a spot that he would have won me the game if he was main.   I dont think a Tendrils main would be any good in this list since burning Wish can grab it when your ready to win anyway and if not just use the infinte lock and win via that..  If your running 2 Gifts I could see running if main instead of one of the other Sev/Belcher or Flame/Vault but other than that I dont see a valid reason to put it main.  I have tested almost everything in the deck including a Cabal Ritual in the main before to help set up a faster kill with Belcher/Sev during Waterbury 6 and only liked it cause it looked cool, foreign and such.  If Rich could give his thoughts that would be great although I'm not use if he looks over this that often but I'd like to hear what his thoughts are on the deck in the metagame right now.  This deck while looking like gifts is not Gifts just throwing that out and I guess testing a Tendrils Main wouldn't hurt.  Hopefully Rich sees this and can give us his thoughts and maybe a list he is running or a list he would run today. 

Rich had maindecked one in a tournament a couple months ago; I'm not sure, but I think it was around the time of Origins. He'd said that it was such a good "I Win" card and that Slaver needed the quick win card like DSC at the time.

I'm wondering how this deck, without access to Colossus, deals with Fish. I've found that even Pentavus at times is not enough. These decks seem to have much fewer "outs" than traditional CS had; things like Trike and Echoing Truth could deal with the problem of Meddling Mages and Kataki and Null Rod. That concerns me.

[MoxMonkey]

I still run an Echoing Truth in my build and I have been toying around with it some more.  I was looking over my Waterbury Report and seeing what was helpful and what I was running and why I had it then.  My list is 8 Cards different than what it was then and 1 of them is Cunning over burning then a 26th mana source since I saw way to many Wastelands that day.  I am testing a titan Main baord since he has synegy with Welder but I dont like DSC at all in the deck and cause of my playstyle.  DSC is good but I dont think hes needed.  Looking back at Waterbury Titan was a really big help for Slaver it gave it a nice tinker Target and I really missed that.  I am sure Control Slaver is still powerful in Vintage it just needs testing.

[forests failed you]

I think that part of constructing a good Vintage deck, and being able to win consistently with it is figuring out what is essential and what is overkill.

A win is a win.  It doesn't matter if you crush your opponent with a DSC or beat him to death with a Gorilla shaman, it all counts for the same.

My problem with cards like DSC and Titan is that they are situationally really, good but it seems like for every one game they make you 'just win.' There are two times that they cause you to mulligan or end up being a dead second turn draw.

The fact of the matter is that this deck is broken, even as it is typed out and incomplete because of testing, results, and the fact that it is a fairly new list.  Only time and testing will help me decide what is the best card choice for each and every slot md and sb.

Personally, I have made it my personal goal to evolve slaver as far as the concept can go because in my opinion activating Mindslaver is the single most broken thing in type one.  That in combination with setting up Yawgmoth's Will seems like the foundation for what should be conceptually the most powerful deck in Vintage.  My results testing and playing this list have not let me down.  The fact of the matter is that I have been able to play this list to admirable finishes against every single archetype in the format.  Match ups that used to be problematic for me playing a traditinal CS list are now vastly improved.  For instance Goblins and UW Fish. 

I am not cutting cards from the deck because I don't think they are "good," I am cutting cards because I don't think they are neccessary in order to win.  I have always believed this is the best way to build a Vintage deck, and I would be very hard pressed to believe that my manner of thinking will change anytime soon.  I realize the DSC and Titan can often allow you to just win.  My logic is that I don't need cards that sometimes allow me to just win, when I can play cards that ALWAYS help me win. 

That is what is so difficult about tuning this list.  You don't need a lot of cards, but in certain circumstances there are lots of cards that I want to have access to.  The test is to find a list that can play the least amount of utility cards taht answer threats that need to be answered, while at the same time being able to answer all of the threats that are necessary during the course of a tourney.

For instance, Maindeck Darkblast and Trike is overkill.  YOu really only need one or the other.  I believe that having one card in your maindeck to answer creatures is more than sufficient.  In all honestly there are really only a few creatures that you can't win through.  Meddling Mage and Withered Wretch... Possibly opposing Welder.  This got me thinking:  "do I even need to answer these creatures at all?  Or, can I just win around them."  Drain and Force are both answers already, but after thinking it over I would probably play a Trike in my MD for now if I were to take this deck to a major tourney, and move the DB to the SB.

The difficult part about tweaking this deck is that whereas the old CS decks played with a bunch of MD answers this deck replaces them for tutors, which leaves the space for playing answers very much empty.  SO the key is to make the utility answer the most threats as possible.  Burning Wish is ideal because it is one card that answers every threat, while at the same time doubles as a win condition.

That is why I no longer like E turth for this deck.  It is awful when you are trying to go off.  I'd almost like to see a Maindeck Hurkyl's or Rebuild in its place.

I don't like Colossus because it has terrible synergy with this deck and it isn't useful for anything but beating down.  Honestly guys, look at this list with all of the brokeness it is capable of and tell me that as a deck, the most optimal thing it can be doing is beating down with 11/11.  It seems like the worst thing it could be doing.  I'd rather be Slavering and then just winning.

If Rich Shay said DSC was necessary in Slaver because it allowed you and easy way to just win I partly agree with him.  Slaver needed a way to just win, and it is Burning Wish for Tendrils.  BUrning wish is a much stronger choice than DSC in the MD.  Tendrils is also a great way of beating Oath.

I don't disagree with boarding DSC as a way to beatdown aggro..  With the infi MD tutors he is so easy to find and get down that Fishes and GOBOS really don't stand much of a chance.

[The Atog Lord]

I was going to stay out of the "how to build  Control Slaver" discussion, but having been prompted by PM, I'll give my two cents.

Before anything else, it is important to consider the metagame role of Slaver and how that role has changed over recent times. In its inception, Control Slaver was by far the fastest control-combo deck in the format. Sure, more dedicated combo decks were faster than Control Slaver; yet, Slaver was much faster than anything else with Mana Drain in it. And much of its strength was that it occupied the metagame spot currently occupied by Gifts decks.

The advent of Gifts decks has in fact shifted where Control Slaver can be considered among the metagame decks today. Gifts is a mana drain deck capable of playing a control game; yet it is faster than Control Slaver. Thus gone is Control Slaver's old position of being the fastest control combo deck. (And in Gifts decks I include all archetypes: Brassman.dec, RandyB.dec, and Steve's Merchant Scroll Deck.)

The two questions this raises are: Is CS still viable? And, if so, how must CS be adjusted to compensate for this? Well, first and foremost, CS is still viable. Granted, I'm not exactly a neutral party on the matter, but I fully believe it to be. While a deck based on Gifts may be faster, CS remains more stable than any such deck. I've battled back with Slaver against pretty much every hate card and awful situation you can imagine. I've been double-Capped and come back. Slaver is just about impossible to hate out. Most Gifts-based decks aren't nearly as resilient. In addition, Control Slaver has room. It has maindeck and sideboard space to play with, and it is very possible to cram lots of fun cards into the Slaver skeleton.

Now, let's get to the second question. How do we take those strengths and turn them into victory?

That  brings me to my point. The discussion going on here -- the question of how best to build Control Slaver -- is at its heart a flawed discussion and not useful to most players. There is no correct build of Control Slaver. There are only correct builds of Control Slaver for one week, for one tournament, for one area. In other words, Control Slaver is built correctly if and only if it is constructed to exploit patterns and weaknesses in a particular metagame. Control Slaver should not be built to Goldfish well, nor should it be built to combat some general metagame. If you do the former, you're better off with a Gifts build. If you do the latter you'll find yourself playing an underpowered deck that will have a hard time cutting through a field.

No, building Control Slaver correctly is much more difficult than copying a list. It's about predicting metagame trends and understanding matchups. It's about knowing which metagame-specific (hate) cards to include in your maindeck, and knowing which normally key cards you can exclude from a particular build. This cannot be done in a general case, and rather must be done as a function of what you expect in a particular tournament. I've played Control Slaver in more tournaments than I can count, and I almost never played the same list twice. Every tournament would see me making predictions based on the metagame and tuning my list accordingly.

[marcb]

I don't know if anyone is trying this, but I have been playing with trike main, putting both echoing truth and darkpact in the SB in MD a cunning wish. It has been decent to me. Again with the right sideboard it functions as more like a utility card (say for rack and ruin) similar to burning wish. If you're trying to go off, it's ok again if you have the right sideboard. I have tried frantic search in the sb for cunning, but I'm really not sure what I think of it yet yet.

Marc

[MoxMonkey]

I did try out a Cunning Wish, but the SB ends up with to many Wish targets and theres no more room for metagame cards like Tormod's Crypt and DSC, titan.  I had 3-5 Instant Wish targets given they were good in the SB and other other matchups but then I had 4-5 Sorcery Wish targets so 2/3 of my board was dedicated to just those 2 cards to work better.  I was going to try cutting Burning Wish but I really like the Board that it brings and the Tendrils finish.  Rich has said it best its not a regular list you just copy to bring somewhere you have to predict the metagame and do what is right for that metagame. 

[Greistal]

I don't know if anyone is trying this, but I have been playing with trike main, putting both echoing truth and darkpact in the SB in MD a cunning wish.

I tried a list similar to the one proposed: plenty of tutors + the Gifts suite (Gifts, Recoup, Burning Wish), but I was not able to give up to the Cunning Wishes maindeck, so I played two of them (I used to play three of them, but tutors enabled me to play only two).
My sideboard is light on graveyard hate, what ended up as a problem against a Zombie Infestation deck in my last tournament sunday in Turin, Italy (I ended up 12th). I would really like to squeeze in a Tormod's Crypt in my sideboard.

If anyone is interested this was my list:

// Maindeck (60)
// Lands (15)
    2  Polluted Delta
    2  Flooded Strand
    3  Volcanic Island
    3  Underground Sea
    3  Island
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Library of Alexandria

// Creatures (6)
    3  Goblin Welder
    1  Triskelion
    1  Pentavus
    1  Darksteel Colossus

// Spells (39)
    1  Mindslaver
    1  Recoup
    1  Burning Wish
    2  Cunning Wish
    4  Mana Drain
    4  Force of Will
    1  Gifts Ungiven
    4  Thirst for Knowledge
    1  Tinker
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Imperial Seal
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Vault
 
// Sideboard (15)
SB: 2  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1  Pyroblast
SB: 1  Firestorm
SB: 2  Rack and Ruin
SB: 1  Pyroclasm
SB: 1  Fire/Ice
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1  Echoing Truth
SB: 1  Rushing River
SB: 1  Fact or Fiction
SB: 1  Misdirection
SB: 1  Coffin Purge
SB: 1  Tendrils of Agony

Be aware that Italy's tournaments are not proxy, so Gorilla Shaman does not shine like it does in United States. Cunning Wishes are better.
IMHO, with the Gifts suite and three colors Colossus is better than Titan.

Bye,
Greistal

[marcb]

Thanks Mox Monkey for the thought on Cunning Wish.  This is the version I'm playing right now.

3 Volc Island
2 U Sea
2 Polluted D
2 Flooded S
2 Isl
1 Snow-Cov Isll
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 LOA
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
5 Moxen
1 Tolarian Academy
3 G. Welder
1 Mox Monkey
1 Pentavus
1 Trike
1 Slaver

4 FoW
4 Mana Drain

4 Brainstorm
4 TfK
2 Gifts

1 Demonic T
1 Myst. T
1 Vamp. T.
1 Imp Seal
1 Burning Wish
1 Cunning Wish

1 Tinker
1 Timewalk
1 Ancestral
1 Yawg. Will

SB
1 Darkblast
1 Ecoing Truth
1 FoF
1 Rack and Ruin
2 REB
1 Pyroblast
2 Stifle
1 Tendrils
1 Pyroclasm
1 Echoing Ruin
1 Mox Monkey
2 Tormod's Crypt

  I admit that this SB has 9 cunning wish targets, but most were in the SB before I added Cunning Wish. I only have 3 Burning wish targets, and the reason I don't want more (probably want to take out pyroclasm) is because B. Wish gets RFG, so you can't use it more than once.  Cunning wish can be cast and recast off Y. Will.  Plus the FoF is better than Compulsive Research anyway, and there's no room MD for it.  I know that SB needs to be based off meta, but even if I lost three instants from the SB, in order to change the list as the meta changes there would still be 6 targets for Cunning Wish.  This versions really fast (it has the petal and everything), and the two wishes really gives it an old style silver-bullet feel that I think let's it play control better than my old lists that didn't play wish.  I should also say that I much prefer Trike to darkblast main. It keeps the artifact count higher, where TfK and G. Welder really shine, and it still is a great beatstick. 

On a separate note, I was wondering why you want to board Titan or colossus anyway?  Colossus isn't synergistic with the deck, and titan is more synergestic but I think it's better in a 5C mana base deck without duals.  Is your meta combo heavy, and thats why you want to borard these guys? To shorten the clock, or is there some other reason that I'm not understanding? Just looking to learn from the pro's.  Thanks in advance.

Marc

[Moxlotus]

Cunning wish can be cast and recast off Y. Will.

RTFC

Oracle text: Choose an instant card you own from outside the game, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. Remove Cunning Wish from the game

[forests failed you]

Cunning Wish would be good if the Sideboard wasn't so tight.

The way I see it my sideboard always includes:

2 Stifle
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Echoing Ruin
1 Pyroclasm
1 Utility draw Burning wish Target (recoup or Compuslive research)

That leaves the remaining spaces kind of cramped.  And that isn't even including Rack and Ruin or Echoing Truth which are very good.

The board is just too cramped to properly include a Cunning and a Burning Wish board right now.

Not to mention, Cunning Wish isn't the house that it is in Psychatog where you can randomly cast Gush remove Gush from the game with Tog and then wish for Gush again.  Leave Cunning Wish to Onelovemachine and his Psychatogs;  Slaver should be focused on just winnning and doing as much ignoring as possible.

You actually have eight maindeck answers to every spell in the game.  Four Mana Drain and four Force of Will.  The key is countering the things that you need to, and ignoring the spells that you don't.  For instance against Stax you can let a Random Sphere of Resistence resolve because you can deal with it later, however you can almost never let a Choke Resolve.  Therefore if you are banking one counterspell and they can make the mana, you should almost always just let the Sphere resolve so they can Choke you out.  If you play smartly, and save your counters for the real threats you actually don't need to play with as many answers.  For the most part Slaver can ignore the majority of most decks gameplans and just win.  The problem is the few problematic cards that can be slipped through your defense that cost you too much tempo to recover.  Those are the cards that I play with maindeck solutions to.  For instance, Chalice of the Void, Meddling Mage, Aether Vial and Null Rod. You must answer those so I play one way to kill creatuers, Trike, and two ways to kill small non creature artifacts, Shaman.  And one sandbag answer Burning Wish that can answer either.

[Hi-Val]

What do the Stifles do for you? Are they for something specific or something broad? I couldn't really see cutting maindeck cards for Stifles just to sideboard them in, and if they're there for a specific match, then perhaps they could be something more specific? Stifle does do a number on storm combo, but Coffin Purge, Crypt, Duress and Sphere of Resistance all do similar jobs.

Reflecting on what Rich said, I'm wary about making CS into a "combo kill" deck. In the past, it had that appeal, but now I think that the appeal of CS is a very, very consistent turn 4-5 slaver activation, which just about ruins the opponent. It seems like its appropriate role now should be like that of 3cc-- not trying to set up huge bombs, but instead controlling the game right up until the point where your opponent cannot recover (usually after a Slaver activation). That's why I'd be more inclined to add things that would up the consistency of slaver versus things that up the combo potential or options.

[MoxMonkey]

I find the 2 Stilfe 2 Tormod's Crypt plan Really good.  Its a great Sideboard option for the Dragon match, Mirror match, Gifts match, and TPS/Storm combo.  Thats a lot of matchups to have 4 slots good for and I think Its a very good thing to use.  Its true these 4 cards are not auto include in all Slaver Sideboards but its a nice thing to remember you have the ability to use..

[forests failed you]

Actually, I almost always bring both Stifles into every single match up at least one of the side boarded games.  Lots of times I will board them in game two, and then board them out game three so that my opponents have to play around them.

Stifle is far and away the best answer to opposing Tormod's Crypt possible.  In fact, Stilfe in the board actually makes it a poor decision for an opponent to bring in Crypt against you.

[The Atog Lord]

Hi-Val  --
Exactly.

Stifle is far and away the best answer to opposing Tormod's Crypt possible.  In fact, Stilfe in the board actually makes it a poor decision for an opponent to bring in Crypt against you.

Here is the problem. I wrote above that one of Control Slaver's main strengths over faster control-combo decks is that it is resilient to hate. If you have built Control Slaver such that this is no longer the case, then you've done something wrong. Thinking of how to get around a card like Tormod's Crypt with cards isn't a good way to think about things. Rather, you should be thinking of how to play around Tormod's Crypt.

Crypt answers exactly five cards in a standard Control Slaver list: Yawgmoth's Will and the four little red men. Now, sure, you can do other things to the deck to make the deck more vulnerable to it: Crucible, Gifts, Recoup, etc all make the deck more vulnerable to Tormod's Crypt. Which is, of course, another strike against each of those cards. With a standard list, however, you often needn't worry about Crypt, but rather adjust your style of play to take it into account. You can spare discarding key artifacts and then cast them. I've faced graveyard hate more times than I can count, and have lost exactly one match to it.

In short, thinking of how to get around hate cards -- with the exception of a rare few like Null Rod -- isn't the right approach.

[MoxMonkey]

Yes playing around hate is needed but I also like the Stifle Crypt plan.  If someone is unprepared it can surprise them and take them by storm.  I like having a nice Way to change into the better control role against combo and the surprise factor is great cause against Gifts they are expecting Red Elemental Blast when you bring in 3-5 cards and maybe a Darksteel Colossus and bounce but never Stifles.  I will be doing some testing later today and hopefully be ready to show everyone Slaver isn't dead at the Ruby/Drain.  I hope to be able to post something useful like my matchups and such after but I have school and have 3 papers due by Monday/Tuesday for classes so when I have the time I'll be typing those and some matchups if I do well.  Thanks for pointing out that Slaver can work around hate when you want it to.  Also Gifts might be bad with Crypt on the board but I don't think you need Recoup to make it usable.  I have casted Gifts many times with Slaver and its very nice to see people confused because they don't see Recoup.

[assassin]

Ok this may seem a bit crazy, but i have been playing slaver for about 6 months and recently started toying with the tendrils alt. kill, and was wondering has anyone tried memory jar in slaver.  Its a bit off the beaten path but with tinker/welders it seems like it could be an extremely powerful draw engine for comboing out on an opponant...Any thoughts?

[pyr0ma5ta]

What do the Stifles do for you? Are they for something specific or something broad? I couldn't really see cutting maindeck cards for Stifles just to sideboard them in, and if they're there for a specific match, then perhaps they could be something more specific? Stifle does do a number on storm combo, but Coffin Purge, Crypt, Duress and Sphere of Resistance all do similar jobs.

Reflecting on what Rich said, I'm wary about making CS into a "combo kill" deck. In the past, it had that appeal, but now I think that the appeal of CS is a very, very consistent turn 4-5 slaver activation, which just about ruins the opponent. It seems like its appropriate role now should be like that of 3cc-- not trying to set up huge bombs, but instead controlling the game right up until the point where your opponent cannot recover (usually after a Slaver activation). That's why I'd be more inclined to add things that would up the consistency of slaver versus things that up the combo potential or options.

Quoted for truthery.  Thank you for saying exactly what I've been trying to say.

[Dozer]

Stifle is far and away the best answer to opposing Tormod's Crypt possible.

Pithing Needle has more synergy with the deck as a whole and works as a permanent Stifle. I see no reason to run Stifle over Needle unless you routinely plan to hit fetchlands with the Stifle you boarded in against a specific threat. Against Dragon and Storm combo decks, I see Stifle being useful, but that would be more a metagame call than a permanent inclusion in the sideboard, I guess.

What exactly do you need the Tormod's Crypt for? Both Gifts and regular Slaver can play around Tormod's Crypt. Do you see that much Dragon that you need to devote 4 slots for the matchup as an "always include" in your sideboard?

Dozer

[PucktheCat]

In fact, Stilfe in the board actually makes it a poor decision for an opponent to bring in Crypt against you.

How is this possibly true?  The best you can get by Stifling a Crypt is a 1-for-1 trade with a loss of one mana for you and none for him.  A lot of the time it will be a 1-for-1 trade at the cost of more like 2-3 mana to you because you will have to leave your Island untapped at all times until he pops the Crypt, effectively wasting the mana.

Leo

[absolute]

Stifle is far and away the best answer to opposing Tormod's Crypt possible.

Pithing Needle has more synergy with the deck as a whole and works as a permanent Stifle. I see no reason to run Stifle over Needle unless you routinely plan to hit fetchlands with the Stifle you boarded in against a specific threat. Against Dragon and Storm combo decks, I see Stifle being useful, but that would be more a metagame call than a permanent inclusion in the sideboard, I guess.

What exactly do you need the Tormod's Crypt for? Both Gifts and regular Slaver can play around Tormod's Crypt. Do you see that much Dragon that you need to devote 4 slots for the matchup as an "always include" in your sideboard?

Dozer

Tormod's Crypt will be far more useful than just a sideboarding option against gifts and slaver. Tendrils combo is now even more dependent on will, with dragon and gifts having to worry about timing issues throughout entire matches. The only real deck that it is useless against is stax to some extent, and even there it can help against opposing barbarian rings. I think crypt itself is far more powerful than you're willing to give it credit for. Stifle, on the other hand, is something I rarely have found useful against anything but dragon.

[Dozer]

gifts having to worry about timing issues throughout entire matches.

Just as a side note, because it doesn't really belong in this thread: An extra pair of counterspells in CS will give Gifts more trouble than a resolved Tormod's Crypt.

[Metman]

I have been testing one Stifle maindeck in Slaver.  Before it had been in my sideboard to battle Dragon and Tendrils.  Since CS doesn't rely on mana denial like Keeper used to I have found it to be rarely as powerful as it could be when sided in against proper decks.  It's almost never a dead draw considering it pitches to FoW and TfK and hits Fetchlands, but this is all a one-for-one trade off.  Since it is only a one-for-one trade in most situations or sits in my hand until a very narrow circumstance I don't think it will continue to stay in my main.  It will be moved back to the sideboard to battle specific decks and specific cards that will be expected to be sided in against me, namely Tormod's Crypt. 

The dilema I face is what to replace it with.  I like the utility of Stifle and would like to replace it with another utility card since there aren't any more spots devoted to battling for board control.  I had considered Fire//Ice, Darkblast, Rack and Ruin, or a bounce spell including Echoing Truth, Boomerang, and Capsize. 

If anybody has any insight as to what to replace the Stifle with it is greatly welcomed.

[sean1i0]

I would say that what to replace the stifle's spot with is almost completely dependent on your metagame.  If you're just wanting a card that's good against all decks, then I guess Mana Leak or something of the like is the best idea, although I think that overall it's better to have a metagame slot there.

[Vertigo]

I just top8`ed here in a local tournament with slaver. So first of all this is an enlightening discussion, I think.
However on advice from a friend I made the decision to move sundering titan mainboard. He MvP!! He rocks in a controllish meta..Especially versus gifts.

He has been very good in many matchups especially in the control mirrors where you often can take out 2-3 lands. Combined with gorilla shaman they have proved a strong Tag-Team.

I however faced a lot of complications in the fish/birdshit matchup versions running null rod. Chalice of the void is rarely a question really when playing gorilla shamans maindeck. For that I thank you forcefieldyou. He is paramount in slaver
 
I must admit that i played without the burning wish/tendrils plan which may have been foolish. I suppose that in these matchup it shines and for that reason alone be a valid card in slaver, just because it needs, in my oppinion, to find another route in these matchup

Hopefully any of you may be willing to share what your plans are for this match up ?

   

[sean1i0]

My plan against fish is generally just to get out a really big dude and then protect him.  Post board DSC is the shit when it comes to filling this role, although sundering titan is awesome at doing that, too, if you have him in your deck.  Even Triskelion can go a long way towards kicking the crap out of a fish deck with a null rod on the board:  a 4/4 is much bigger than most creatures in said deck.  Now, grant it, a 4/4 isn't so impressive against birdshit, but DSC and Titan still are.

[forests failed you]

Stife is actually good in every match up.

Especially, Dragon, Combo, and UW Fish.

Not to mention I like to bring them in Game two, catch my opponent by surprise, and then board them out game three.  Most of the time a saavy oppent will play around the Stifles that are not even in your deck after seeing them in game two. 

Actually, Stifle is the best board card you have against Oath.  It saves your lands from strip effects (which is important) and it randomly says, "Prevent the next 12 damage that would be dealt to you.

Also, if you can Slaver Oath a few times in a row you can Stifle the Blessing trigger and just win the game on the spot.

Tormod's Crypt is in the board to beat Combo and Gifts.  It is good in both of those match ups.

Pithing Needle is absolute shit in Slaver.  Stife answers every card that Needle does, plus it gives you an element of surprise.

[Metman]

Forcefield you bring some great arguments for leaving Stifle in MD but I have found it a really slow card if that makes any sense.  I feel like I sit around and wait to use it; have you found the same thing?  I don't think hitting fetchlands with it is justified often enough to leave it in MD.  I love it in the SB and I like the tactic of siding it back out for game three.  I do see a fair amount of Dragon in the meta and an occasional Tendrils but I also see a fair amount of decks such as Tog that Stifle doesn't pull it's weight against.  I'm sure there are cards that people like running in Slaver that is "conventional" so to speak.  I don't run a Trike MD because there is only a little bit of Slaver in my meta.  Therefore, I've moved him to my sideboard to come in against Slaver, Stax, FCG and Fish.  Because of the lack of Trike MD I've considered running a lone Darkblast.  I've also thought of tossing in a bounce spell to hump DSC, nothing worse than it being in the hand right?

As far as the Sundering Titan debate goes...once I added him to the MD I never looked back.  He is the best early game Tinker target.  Slaver is often too costly early and doesn't screw the oppenent without an active Welder like a 7/10 that destroys all their land.  This is especially true against control decks.  Hitting three mirror match lands and losing none of yours is just too good to pass up.  He's also decent in the aggro match.  IMHO he's the second pick of artifacts after Mindslaver when building a CS deck.  DSC is a great guy but isn't weldable and can't be casted as easily as Titan.  He's bigger but doesn't suit playstyle of Slaver. 

[forests failed you]

Stifle is not a MD stratagy it is definately a sideboard card.

Michigan has caught on to my Stifle plan, and they are EVERYWHERE here!

[pyr0ma5ta]

I have just 1 question for everyone who plays CS.

Honestly, is CS good, or is it bad?  Don't give me any "depends on your metagame" answers.  The deck is very consistent, and beats the crap out of Workshops, but from what I can tell, is just a little too slow to keep up with Gifts and the rest of the meta.

And if it isn't good, is Gifts the end-all best deck to play?  If not, why is everyone trying to put Gifts and Burning wish into CS, and how come Stax has game against it?  (Vroman won the last 2 SCGP9s...)  I figure that if I can beat Stax, Fish, and Combo, I'm doing pretty good...