(Article and updated Primer) How to play control slaver now.

[sean1i0]

Is CS good?  Hell yes.  The reason you here people saying that it depends on your metagame is because the maindeck should shift to fit your specific metagame.  If you can accurately predict your metagame, then you can conceivably anything with this deck.  Expecting a lot of aggro?  Either concentrate on the combo kill or slip in a DSC mainboard, etc.  Expecting a lot of combo?  Put extra counterspells or duresses in your deck.  It goes on and on just like that; this deck can adjust itself for any metagame.  However, if you're an accomplished CS player and you really have no idea what your metagame is, then you could realistically put together a more general slaver list and, assuming you don't just get horrible draws, win a tournament.  That just happens to be the hard way of doing things.

As for the Gifts match up, mind's eye or a ton of REBs/Pyroblasts will handle the Gifts match up well enough.  No, Gifts decks are the be-all-end-all of magic decks, but they are damned good.  Besides just the decks being good, the card itself is really awesome, even if it isn't in a deck that has recoup.  Of all these decks trying to fit Gifts into them, some are the obvious ones (gifts control), some are combo decks that wish to have the stability/tutoring power of gifts (tps) and some are control decks that wish to have another good way to abuse yawgmoth's will as well as another tool for abusing cards in the deck (pentavus and mindslaver for example). 

And burning wish is just another really good card; for one thing, if you're abusing yawg. will already, then it becomes really easy to fire off a burning wish in the middle of it to grab a tendrils and just win.  You can also do some nifty plays like time walk, yawg. will, time walk, burning wish, time walk or it can just be a general utility card.  One more huge nifty play that gives it kudos:  Say you have to spend your yawg. will early in the game to gain enough momentum to stay alive, if you want/need to, you can then burning wish for it later on to yawg. win a second time in a game.  I hope that answers some of your questions.

[forests failed you]

Yes, standard CS is a good deck and it is viable right now.

However, I found that I had a bad match up against Gifts and Oath.  The main problem was that the deck didn't have the firepower to race, to recover and out top deck certain decks in the format.

I truly believe that the TFK, Brainstorm, Welder, Robot engine is the best in the format, and with that in mind I set out to give the deck the extra UMPH, if you will, that it needed to beat the bad match ups.  The key was adding additional emphasis on the power of Yawgmoth's Will and giving the deck additional tutoring power to find the broken cards.  Part fo the reason the best Gifts builds are so good, is that they have multiple Merchant Scrolls to find key boost cards (Recall, Gifts, Force of Will) that give the deck explosive and consistant starts.  CS relied on Drawing its good cards Via TFK rather than having multiple ways to search them out.  By adding Imperial Seal, and Vamp tutor, both of those cards essentially serve the same function in Slaver that MS serves in Gifts.  The key difference is that they also give you infinitely more versatility than Scroll does.  Not only do they get you recall on turn one (without a Mox) but they also protect it from opposing Duress.  In addition to that, they can also get a higher quality of cards than Scroll can, for instance Black Lotus, Goblin Welder, Gorilla Shaman, Burning Wish and Tinker to name a few.  The last added bonus of playing with the two black tutors is that they become insane during a Yawgmoth's Will, whereas Merchant Scroll usually is a non factor in the grave.

I actually agree that CS, the standard build, is not the metagame contender that it once was.  From my point of view, I don't understand why someone would want to play a version of slaver that doesn't have the capacity to go on the offensive and give opponents with slow draws a savage beating, or allow you to recover out of very slanted game states.

CS has been my primary deck for about a year and a half now, and I believe that Slaver with more tutors, Gifts, and a body based primarily around protecting and resolving Yawgmoth's Will is the fundamentally best build of the deck there is.  Burning Wish ----> Tendrils or Utility seems so obvious and broken, and has pr oven to be so good in testing that it is actually odd to me that more people were not developing it sooner.  However, the inclusion of Imperial Seal really is a strong addition to this archetype and makes the inclusion of Gifts Ungiven to be almost automatic.  The main problem I found playing Gifts Slaver over the summer was that it really needed that last Tutor to really allow your Gifts to do what you wanted it to.  Usually, some of them get used up over the course of the early game and Recoup just seemed so subpar.

To answer your question more directly:  The reason that everyone is trying to put Gifts and Burning Wish into Slaver is that, Gifts and Burning Wish are absolutely broken stupid ass cards as far as power level is concerned.  Also, both cards have fantastic synergy with Slaver's overall gameplan.  

Burning Slavery is not a Tendrils kill deck.  It is a Goblin Welder Mindslaver deck that also has the capacity to win the game via broken Yawgmoth's Wills.  

I would also like to add that Gifts did not put up a strong performance at SCG Chicago (nor did slaver).  It is all about knowing your deck inside and out and playing it masterfully.  Personally, I think that UW Fishalos is an absolutely awful pile of garbage, however put it in the hands of Paul Fishalo and magic happens, and he takes third in Chicago.  Knowledge of match ups and one's deck is key.  Another good example is Vroman with Uba Stax.  He can play his deck and make it win for him.

Anyways, the point is I wanted to clarify some of the advantages to playing the Burning Slaver over CS, for now at least, and respond to Pyromasta's questions about Slaver in general.   Yes, I think Slaver is still the top deck in the metagame right now... even if it is wildly underplayed.  I am of the opinion that it needed a stronger early game, so that is what I gave my deck.  

I've designed and collaborated on a lot of Slaver decks over the course of the last year and a half;  Including Windfall's that won Vintage Worlds last year, and my own list that took 3rd at Vintage Worlds this year.  My playtesting, tournament experience, and overall intuitive feeling all tell me that these latest lists of Burning Slaver are among the best, most powerful, and most consistent conceptual Slaver decklists out there right now.

Another bonus of this deck (and slaver decks in general) is that it doesn't get owned by REB the way Gifts does. 

Also, I played the deck today at the Pandemonium Mox Sapphire tournament to yet another Vintage-Avant Garde victory.  The deck is solid, if anything it could be even more savage through more tweaking.

[pyr0ma5ta]

I realize what you're trying to do with the Burning wish plan, since I've recently started testing on MWS.

Mindslaver is really, really, bad against some guy with random.dec with 20 Relentless Rats in it.  It does nothing.  You want to say all right, you're playing something bad, I'll just win now.  I appreciate that, and I like the concept.  My problem is that on the one hand, you're saying TFK/Welder/robots is VERY strong.  I agree.  On the other hand, you want to cut welders and robots, and each time you do that, it makes the rest of the engine less powerful.  Is there some way we can cram the Tutors/Gifts/Wish in without cutting the engine?  Mindslaver, as you have noted, is still just about the best thing can do in Vintage, but only if your opponent is also playing busted cards.  If he's playing something janky, you want to be able to run out a win-now, and my version of win-now is Tinker, Time Walk.  Attack for 11, Will, Time walk.  That seems just as strong as casting Burning Wish for Tendrils.

[Dante]

....and my version of win-now is Tinker, Time Walk.  Attack for 11, Will, Time walk.  That seems just as strong as casting Burning Wish for Tendrils.

Having BOTH options, however, is far more flexibile and allows you to choose the best victory path, esp if there are a lot of "randoms" that you alluded to.

Dante

[forests failed you]

Cutting 1 Welder can't be a bad thing.  In multiples Welder is terrible and makes you lose the game because instead of draw cards you have 1/1 guys that don't do anything.  Tutors let you find ANYTHING, Welders included.  Tendrils allows you to race decks that you should be able to race, like Oath.  I played in a power tourney yesterday and raced Akroma all day long.

[Vertigo]

Cant agree more with that forcefieldyou.

In my oppinion tutors are mandatory must-includes. As are gorilla shamans unless you play in a random meta. For that case so is burning wish tendrils. I know there isn't that much room anymore if you go the burning wish-tendrils route but I would like to add that a single tormods crypt maindeck may be a good idea.

Why not add pressure? It forces gifts players to play with us. I know this is a meta contextual choice but with

2x gorilla shaman
1x tormods crypt
1x burning wish
1x sundering titan

It seems that we have a solid disrupting base which may buy us the time to seal the win with pentavus-mindslaver activations.

However darkblast has proven to be highly dangerous. Any strategies to playing around it?

[cryolyte]

Your idea of having Tormod's crypt maindeck is a pretty good defense against the Darkblast. I think darkblast is abused by decks that want to abuse whatever they dredge, so by playing the mighty crypt you might make them hesitate to do it blindly. After a brainstorm, of course, there's no stopping the dredging of crap. Can you stifle dredge?

[Vertigo]

About stifling darkblast I do not know however yes..tormods crypt was also a part of my ponderings about it.

Darkblast is annyoing to say the least.

Tormods crypt may prove a valid tool since welder really can abuse it! it pitches to thirst too and is easily useable!

[MoxMonkey]

I had Crypt and never liked it but I've learned how to play around different cards and usually run a wish so I could grab something at the worst spot.  I am creating a "new" Slaver Deck for SCG NY and will be testing it.  Hopefully I can do well and I will have something relevent to post for everyone to see and laugh at.  Crypt is truly one of those metagame cards that if its that bad put it in since it does pitch to thirst so its really that bad.  More tutors help  out a lot and shouldn't be looked down at but don't be afraid to bring back old stupid crappy cards like Platz.  This weekend No one ever thought they would see it again and once on the board I have to counter there 1 bounce spell or Balance.  Not that many decks can deal with it, and its a great stall card.  Welders can be cut back to 3 without any problems I myself an on and off the 3-4 Welder depending on my list and metagame expected.  Most Gifts players you must worry about know how to  play around a Tormod's Crypt but it does stop their Will which is really helpful.

[Vertigo]

Stopping will is fundamental to defeating gifts. We have 3-4-5 answers to their collosus maindeck.

What are your oppinions on the other suggestions I made?

Looking forward to seeing the results from the tourney! 

[MoxMonkey]

Titan as I said before is straight based on your metagame.  I am in NE and havn't seen many control mirrors and or dual lands for that matter.  I dont like Titan right now cause no one is running 4 colors with dual lands they are runnning 5 Color mana bases and Titans of their own.  if your metagame calls for him then use him if not replace him with something else.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Dredge is a replacement effect, Stifle does nothing against Darkblast.

Cutting 1 Welder can't be a bad thing. In multiples Welder is terrible and makes you lose the game because instead of draw cards you have 1/1 guys that don't do anything. Tutors let you find ANYTHING, Welders included. Tendrils allows you to race decks that you should be able to race, like Oath. I played in a power tourney yesterday and raced Akroma all day long.

True.  I can agree with cutting 1 Welder for a Tutor, but all the card disadvantage worries me.  And about racing a 6/6 hasty flyer, a tutor for Echoing Truth is pretty nice.  The only thing that I can agree with as far as cutting the engine is 1 Welder out for 1 Tutor in.  Maybe the Fire/Ice out for the Wish, but that's all.  I can't agree with cutting any more of the engine.

[forests failed you]

Quantity of cards isn't as important as QUALITY of cards.  The main reason that drawing a lot of cards in older aggressive Slaver lists, such as Goth Slaver, is that it was an efficient way to find the broken cards.  Will, Tinker, et cetera.  However, with unlimited tutoring power you can find any card you want immediately and go from there.  That is how Gifts decks are able to beat Slaver.  The Gifts play always has access to the important cards it needs, Recall, Tinker, Walk, Will... Because it is able to tutor them up with consistency via Merchant Scroll.

[Gabethebabe]

Can you stifle dredge?

No. Dredge is not an activated or triggered ability.
It is a static ability that allows a player to create a replacement effect.

[assassin]

Currently I am testing Memory Jar in slaver.  Its awesome for when i try to go for a storm kill, and pretty good when im sticking to the standard slaver game plan.  I know Draw7s have a lot of diadvantages vs. the control match but this card has been awesome when I've played against 5Cstax.  I could see it being not so good against Uba stax but I havent had a chance to test it.  It is a welder target which is nice when trying to fill your graveyard.  Has anyone done any testing or tried this card out? 

[pyr0ma5ta]

Quantity of cards isn't as important as QUALITY of cards. The main reason that drawing a lot of cards in older aggressive Slaver lists, such as Goth Slaver, is that it was an efficient way to find the broken cards. Will, Tinker, et cetera.

True, quality of cards is important, but a discard outlet for a 7 mana spell is also important...I'm just saying that drawing 3 is amazing, but almost more amazing was the ability to drop a Slaver into the grumper with a Welder during end step, weld it in, and on my main phase slave.  This is the most broken play in Vintage, arguably, and as proven, is worth building a deck around.

If Welders, Thirsts, or Robots are cut, this play will happen less often.  I really dislike ever cutting this I-win condition, especially since V. Tutor/Imp Seal find me Yawgie's Will, but doesn't help me Slave my opponent into paying all his life when he has a Necropotence on the board.  I absolutely agree with you when you say that having a proactive combo-win is amazing and great, but I just cannot agree with disrupting the other I-win to put in a different win.  Especially when the first win is the main win that the deck is already built to do.

I can see FoF coming out for Gifts, and maybe Fire/Ice for V. Tutor, but I still cannot see how cutting robots will ever help the winning percentage of this deck.

[Disburden]

Quantity of cards isn't as important as QUALITY of cards.  The main reason that drawing a lot of cards in older aggressive Slaver lists, such as Goth Slaver, is that it was an efficient way to find the broken cards.  Will, Tinker, et cetera.  However, with unlimited tutoring power you can find any card you want immediately and go from there.  That is how Gifts decks are able to beat Slaver.  The Gifts play always has access to the important cards it needs, Recall, Tinker, Walk, Will... Because it is able to tutor them up with consistency via Merchant Scroll.

How do you feel about the list from Italy that just came up in the Tournament Forum? It used Intuition, DAs, Cunning Wishes, and not gifts. The Intution part of the build reminded me of the old Goth Slaver lists. The list won a 366 person tournament. Do you think that "Turbo Slaver" can be viable at the moment?

[MoxMonkey]

For everyone who hasn't seen it this is the List form Italy
Andrea Garella - 1st Place - Ubr - C-Slavery

4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of will
2 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
2 Cunning Wish
1 Pentavus
1 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Mindslaver
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker
4 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
5 Mox
1 Lotus
1 Sol RIng
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crupt
4 Goblin welders  - list where I copyied it didn't have them

Side
1 Reb
1 Pyro
2 Extract
1 Firestorm
1 Eretics Viashino
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Rushing River
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gush
1 Misdirection
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Fire Ice
1 Duplicant

I think its something to think about since Intuition cost less than Gifts but it only nets 1 card.  I like how he used Deeps cause Aks are terrible since 1 counter just eat 5 mana and netted a lost for you.  Deep is very good and with Misdirections at a low exp for Smen using them it might be safe for the to return.  His SB is obviously there to support his 2 Cunning Wish and Duplicant is something I also have been toying around with along with Titan and Friends.  I don't like how he only uses 1 MindSlaver but being able to find it with intuition gives it the excuse to only run 1.  We have to remember that he is in a non proxy area so he was expecting more aggro than we would here in the states.  His list is very solid though and is worth looking at and maybe trying to get ideas from.  He also beat a Meandeck Gifts list his final round which is awesome.  Slaver is still around and kicking.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Huh?

Welderless CS?  I already hate it.  Makes you too dependent on Mana Drain, which does nothing more than Counterspell would in some matchups (Fish and TPS come to mind).  A Meddling Mage naming Mana Drain shuts off half of his deck until he can draw/tutor into Cunning Wish for Starstorm.  You can't pull out the End Phase-Thirst-pitch slaver-weld it in-activate during upkeep play.  I guess welders are somewhat bad against creatures, and Starstorm is bad if you have to cast it with a Welder down, but....Come on.  They're too good to cut from a CS build.  But then, he won a tourney, and I'm sitting here talking about how bad his deck is.

[nataz]

its - like 5 cards, so I bet it packs some.

[Gabethebabe]

The Italians play Cunning Wish in every deck. I bet they´re trying it right now in Fish 

About the deck of FFY. I would feel a bit uncomfortable running 3 card disadvantage tutors against a drain deck. Sure, card quality is one thing, but losing a draw without being sure that you´re able to force your threat through, is not really reassuring. I always board out Mystical Tutor when playing against drains. If I play a deck that is forced to play the aggro/combo role against a control deck, than I´d like the deck to pack Duress in stead of Drain.

A weak spot is that the deck is now much more vulnerable to Chalice=1. This is already a standard play against Slaver, but with Seal and Vamp it gets even more devastating.

The point that Vamp and Seal are better than Scroll when you´re resolving Will is moot. You are resolving Will. You are already winning.

I understand that the tutors improve a lot of matchups, because the deck can goldfish earlier. But this is not for free.

[MoxMonkey]

fixed the other list it had 4 black spots so I would safly assume hes running 4 Welders since he had 2 at lots of points in games.  His list is very funny cause its old School slaver.  The new Burning Slavery has its advantages even with being hurt by Chailce for 1 more when do you let that resolve as is?  When it resolved against me it would always kill me anyway even with the added tutors you shouldn't let Chailce resolve.  Cunning Wish is fucking amazing anyone who thinks its too slow is just wrong and the matchups where it is slow you board it like like you do with Mystical.  I had a Wish at waterbury and I never regreted it at alll and I'm thinking about bringing it back too.  Building the deck how you like it is always better than using someone elses list cause you will know what is in your deck and know your outs. 

[Greistal]

Huh?

Welderless CS?  I already hate it.

Since the list is only 56 cards I think that some Welder is missing...

The Italians play Cunning Wish in every deck. I bet they´re trying it right now in Fish 

In our non-proxy environment there are several unpowered decks that pack every sort of hate. To the point that some of your worst matchups are often unpowered and you have to devote a few slots to fight hate permanents such as Null Rod, Chalice, Meddling Mage, Choke, Root Maze, Kataki War's Wage, Serenity, True Believer, etc.
Those slots are in the sideboard but you need to be able to play them even in the first game.

Cunning Wish allows you to play them without cluttering your maindeck with anti-hate cards. If you don't need those answers you can just grab a draw spell from your sideboard, or something that has been removed (or that you removed for this purpose).

Greistal

[forests failed you]

Just because you are resolving Will does not mean you already win.  Playing Will on turn three to Walk, Recall, Brainstorm and play a dead Shaman is good.  But with the tutors you can actually win the game on the spot.  Also, two of the three one Mana Tutors are instants, In response to Chalice one Tutor for Burning Wish...  GG.

If you are really that scared of Chalice for one play a MD Echoing Truth, Shattering Pulse, or Rack and Ruin.  Not to mention you have Shamans in the deck, which have a very strong likelyhood of already being in play before the Chalice comes down.

Out "Turbo Slaver" was really hot back before every other deck was forced to play MD hate for Slaver decks.  IE CHALICE OF THE VOID.  It actually can't win in this enviornment because every deck in the format really forces you to intereact with it.  Back when everyone was playing Slaver, Stax and Oath eight months ago the deck was savage because you just raced everybody and Slavered them.

The meta is actually really interesting right now because there are so many different decks that all play extremely viable threats that force interaction.  I think that any deck that is not prepared to interact and play through annoying cards like Chalice, Sphere, Tormod's Crypt, Stife, Rack and Ruin et cetera is actually terrible at the moment.  The cards that force interaction are the cards that are being played the most.  In fact, I can't remember a time in Vintage when reactive decks have been this unpopular.

I think that the reason we are seeing this trend is that Wizards if finally printing a large quantity of cards that favor putting things on the board and trying to win, rather than keeping cards in your hand and stopping your opponent from winning.

[MoxMonkey]

Figured I'd show my list I'm using right now since its not going to matter at NY cause everyone knows I'm running Slaver as is.

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Cunning Wish

4 Goblin Welder
1 MoxMonkey
2 Mindslaver
1 Pentavus
1 DSC / Titan / Triskelion depending on Metagame

1 Tinker
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Demonic tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

4 Island
4 Fetch
3 Volcanic Island
2 underground Sea
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 LOA
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Darksteel Citadel

SB for now will be changing depending on tournament
3 REB
1 Darkblast
3 Rack and Ruin
1 Fire/Ice
1 FoF
1 Rushing River
1 MoxMonkey
2 Metagame Artifact Triskelion/DSC/Titan
2 Tormod's Crypt

I kinda wanna toss Vamp tutor in the board and add a second Cunning wish but I'm not sure.  I am very happy with how the deck is running and as said before old School Slaver like this can do well but the Gifts match up is not that great but hopefully some crazy changes I do before NY will help me with that.  I do agree with "Turbo Slaver" not being the right call in the US because of the amount of Stax and Chalices one should be ready to play against.

[Vertigo]

So far this discussion has been nothing but enlightening but I need some help really.

I have just qualified for an invitational t1 tourney in Denmark where I expect mostly Gifts Ungiven and TPS.

I would like to hear y`all (and very bold lists to this specific meta are encouraged ) by what design  WOULD make your lists?

I have a week from now
 

[forests failed you]

If those are the two decks you want to beat up on Bslaver is probably the way to go.
Do you want me to email you a list?

[EliteForce]

If those are the two decks you want to beat up on Bslaver is probably the way to go.
Do you want me to email you a list?

Would you please be so kind to share the list with everyone (possibly by posting it here in this thread)...
I think Vertigo isn't the only one interested in a list of Slaver to play in a field of Gifts / TPS.
To be honest, i myself am very interested in any approaches to make this deck as strong as possible and my meta (german meta, -> Iserlohn) should be very similar to Vertigo's with the addition of much Fish/Bird Sh*t/Landstill and Stax in any variants (non proxy environment!).

[forests failed you]

Okay, I have been getting a lot of PMs and Request to post the list of Burning Slavery that I think is the best right now.  This is what I would play, if I were to play it.

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst For Knowledge

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Tinker
1 Rebuild

1 Mindslaver
1 Pentavus
1 Triskellion

3 Goblin Welder
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Burning Wish

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
 
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Darksteel Citadel

1 Tolerian Academy
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Snow Covered Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

SIDEBOARD

3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Stifle
2 Tefri's Response
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Echoing Truth
1 Tendril's of Agony
1 Echoing Ruin
1 Pyroclasm

BTW Tefri's Response is not random, it is fucking awesome.

[Komatteru]

Something is incorrect in that sideboard. You have Echoing Ruin listed twice.