(Article and updated Primer) How to play control slaver now.

[Revvik]

I felt so stupid when I was playing U/R Fish and learned after losing a match that Gorilla Shaman couldn't have eaten my Mishra's Factories like he did 
Oh well, you live, you learn.

I honestly think a singleton Merchant Scroll could do a lot more good than any other currently mentioned.  Merchant Scroll gives a stronger early game when it can tutor up Ancestral Recall earlier, leading to resolution of more bombs in the mid-late-games.  It also pulls out a mainboard Echoing Truth faster Game One against decks packing things such as Null Rod.

I'm of the opinion that Sundering Titan doesn't do anything that a Pentavus doesn't do - and with even a small amount of mana in play, 'Bus can also become a faster clock.  Whether this is more or less important versus Meandeck Gifts, I don't know.  However, Gorilla Shaman is what you want to play against Meandeck Gifts.
Running a very different animal, 4-Color Hulk, Gorilla Shaman allowed me to smoke Meandeck Gifts round 8 at the last Star City.  The denial aspect of that single, solitary workhouse does more than Titan does - because it doesn't matter if your clock takes 20 turns or 3, if they can't play their spells at your speed.

forcefieldyou - I remember a really old tech versus combo decks way back when - Sphere of Resistance.  While I didn't agree entirely, I could see its strengths.  What are your thoughts here?  In a heavier combo metagame, a Sphere of Resistance has some surprise value against combo decks - "you're playing Slaver, wtf are you doing with that?!"

[MoxMonkey]

Titan is a Meta game call in the main and always has been.  He has no real reason to be in the main since Triskelion + Pentavus does everything you need to do.
Cunning Wish is fine even without changing your SB at all to suit for it.  REB, BEB, Rack and Ruin, Fire/Ice, Echoing Truth.  All at the cost of an EOT to grab.  Sounds ok to me. Given it does slow you down but you can deal with it.
Citadel is nuts I've always had one in my build since last waterbury and never looked back.  and now with Shamans all over the place what do you think your going to do without one. 
I am one to see Merchant Scroll as ass in CS its a Sorcery and only gets FOF Drain Force or Ancestral.  I did test it and hated it but if you like it then its for you. 
Cunning Wish may be Slow at times but its Instant Speed slow not Tap during a Main phase. and it finds enough to not need to kill the SB at all. REB BEB Ecohing truth Rack and Ruin  Seems like it would be fine without doing anything to a traditional SB. 
Sphere of Resistance is some nice Ive switched to Chalice of the Void instead but Sphere might be better so its worth testing.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

sigh....

I have tested wish. Ask anybody here in CO. As a matter of fact, when Goth slaver and Shay slaver were at it's prime, I ran 2 of them. But you know what? Over half the time, I wished it was actual business. My point is that if you run wish as a general answer, echoing truth already has it covered. Honestly, when have you ever needed more than truth?

I'll just shut my mouth and keep playing titan. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It's absolutely fantastic when I play him, but you seem to think otherwise. In many games, he's clutch, and tinkering him out will throw an opponent offguard. I know for a fact I wouldn't have won half my games at GenCon if I didn't have him main.

As for gifts go, you are completely right. It's a super intuition. And thats exactly why I like it. It for sure puts what you need in the yard when you want, while still putting you ahead in terms of CA. I've done gifts piles of Drain/Fact/BS/Mystical that have won me the game.

I am one to see Merchant Scroll as ass in CS its a Sorcery and only gets FOF Drain Force or Ancestral.

Only gets Drain and recall? Are you kidding? Drain is the basis of this deck, and last time I checked, having access to recall is never bad. Not to mention now, you have another tutor for truth/fire/ice.

If you don't like Citadel don't play it.  You are probably right, I have no idea what I am talking about, its not like I've been testing it for the past two months or anything...  But when you realize that you can't weld ever because every Mana Drain deck in the format is playing 2 Shamans, I don't want to hear about it.  Gifts is playing Shamans now, it is a really big problem if you don't have Citadel.

About the only control deck I care about is MD Gifts, and they don't run shaman. Tog was a rough matchup, but it's nearly nonexistant at this point. Maybe in Michigan people play shamans everywhere, but I've been happy running citadel-less. I will however test it to see how much it affects the manabase.

-Bob

[MoxMonkey]

I also had Titan main a while back but he is unneeded.  I do have him in the SB cause he is nuts vs Gifts Mirror 3CC but Main board he is bad vs stax and he hits your island vs aggro decks and id rather have Triskelion or pentavus then anyway.  if hes working for you then thats all that matters.
Cunning Wish is ok its playstyle like how you like Merchant Scroll.  I hate tapping mana during my main phase with this deck.  I know it gets Ancestral but thats 3 mana to do it during a main phase.  I always found that to be a terrible play when I play CS.  I also dont get good draws off my ancestral so maybe your just drawing double force with a fetch off your ancestrals.  I also Ran 4CC before CS and I always liked the flexibility.
I'm also in NE and I do see Shamans getting played a lot over here as well, and hes only been getting more played since Gifts decks and Stax have been getting bigger.
This deck has no perfect build because everyone tends to want to play the deck differently.  All we know is with threads like this we can see different cards that might be worth testing and we can see what others say about them and see what their experience has been with them.  Threads getting good lets keep this going.  Waterbury is coming up and testing is always fun.

[Gabethebabe]

Your SB against stax:
-1 Fire / Ice
-1 Fact or Fiction
-1 Brainstorm
-1 Mystical Tutor
+2 Rack and Ruin
+1 Pyrite Spellbomb
+1 Echoing Truth.

I would never side out Mystical against stax. Too often I´ve been in a situation of: Now I have to topdeck R&R or I´m dead meat.

Why did you ditch Pyroclasm? Too often were you killing your own men? Pyroclasm is Da Shizznit against weenie swarms and mystical can find it, I´d leave at least one in there.

Another change I would make for the SB is switching Stifles for Mystic Remora. Mystic Remora is soooo good against storm based combo. A Stifle in hand can be dealt with (Duress). A Mystic Remora on the table makes your opponent sigh. Sure, Mystic Remora is a narrow card, but in how many matchups is Stifle really required ?

[forests failed you]

Fair enough.  I guess it also depends on which version of STAX you are playing against as well.  Usually, against Shop decks all I want to do is play Welders and Shamans and use them to anhilate my opponents board.  I take out Mystical because it doesn't help you find those two. 

I cut pyroclasm for Pyrite Spellbomb because it does kind of the same thing, only I think in a slightly different way.  With Pyroclasm you end up blowing up your own guys, but with Spellbomb you can spot removal your opponents guys for the rest of the match.  Remember, all you need to do with CS is keep yourself from dying long enough to play Mindslaver.  I like Clasm much better in the Gifts board because Gifts doesn't play six 1/1 creatures.  But it is still a good card, I had it in my board at Gencon;  But since I've started testing I like Spellbomb better.  It also helps that Spellbomb is a permenent against Stax; or a Weld target.  The other Savage thing about Spellbomb is that you can replay it under Will even if you have Welders or Shamans on the board.

Stifle is actually really, really good; perhaps much better than I led on in the article.  Many times I will bring in all three against control in game three and just completely throw my opponent off.  Killing fetchlands is really really savage, as is stopping Welder or Mindslaver activations.  Mystic Remora seems even more narrow than Stifle against combo, and if you are spending all of your mana paying its upkeep you don't have mana open to draw cards or play counterspells.  Tendrils can just wait until after you have run out of Mana and kill you. 

On the otherhand, the Stife/Crypt gameplan is really simple.  You stop them once and eat their board with Shaman, or Slaver them.  Mystic Remora is a neat trick though, and kudos you for finding and sharing it!

[Polynomial P]

Brain, Thanks a ton for putting out this primer and it was quite a good read. An updated Slaver primer has been needed for quite some time.

One thing I noticed is that you board out FOF in every matchup. I also find myself taking out this card in a bunch of matchups as well. Is there a better maindeck card or is it acceptable maindeck as it helps you find your few answers and after SB you just bring in better answers?

Also, how do you approach the Ubastax matchup? With the B-rings, crucibles, opposing welders, shamans, null rod and uba mask it is pretty difficult game preboard and then they bring in pyroblast and lava dart post board. I used to think this matchup was pretty easy, but it has gotten much more difficult following recent adjustments.

[forests failed you]

With regards to Fact or Fiction:  I like it in the maindeck because it is such a great card drawer.  Since you don't have as many silver bullets in the deck as you do after board Slaver relies heavily on its counterspells game one.  And that is fine, because your opponents don't have their silver bullet answers either.  However, after board you simply have so many better options for the maindeck that are much cheaper than FOF.  So it can come out.  I have often thought of cutting Fact from the main deck, but I'm not sure that there is one specific card that would improve the quality of the deck overall the way that FOF does.

Uba Stax can be a pretty rough match up, but I wouldn't consider it to be any worse than fifty fifty.  I wish there was a way to say this in a more humble manner, and I'm not trying to be a cocknut by saying so; but, I win a very high percentage of my matches in tournament play (for whatever reason, luck, skill, the grace of god, et cetera).  Sometimes my perception of how a match up plays out can be slightly skewed just because of the fact that I can beat bad match ups based on the fact that for the most part I make the right plays and sometimes my oppoents don't.  However, in general I haven't found Uba Stax to be a terrible match up.  From my experience against it I know a few things for sure.  Firstly, you have to keep Null Rod off the table, and if they board Choke you have to keep that off the board as well.  If you can do this you have taken the fist step towards winning.  Those are probably the most important cards that you need to hit first off.  Secondly, you have to get the red men down as quickly as possible, and have them get to work on Uba Stax's board.  Thirdly you have to Slaver by about turn five, or, if you don't have Slaver going or a Pentavus beating down by turn five (in a closely contested match) their Bazaars and threat density begin to sway the match. 

When you are playing this deck as the Slaver pilot it seems really difficult.  You have to play really tight, everything is closely contested, and if you make even a subtle mistake in mana management you can easily have a disaster on your hands.  But don't despair!  I've tested this match up on both sides and it feels just as intense and difficult for the Uba Stax player.  Both of these decks are very evenly matched and it usually comes down to who makes fewer mistakes and plays flawlessly. 

That isn't to say that Uba Stax doesn't sometimes have a nut draw (Chalice, threat, threat opening) with more things to answer than Slaver could possibly answer on the first turn.  Sometimes in Vintage you just lose, sometimes you can play out of it.  On the flip side sometimes Slaver has those Force of Will ---> Mana Drain hands that just anhilate Stax.  That is just how it goes.  The key is to win the close ones through flawless play.

Also, as long as you can keep null rod off the table Tormod's Crypt is a very strong SB option against the UBA Stax.  It keeps them off threashold for their BRings.

[Revvik]

What are your thoughts on Blood Moon?
- What metagames to play it in
- Number of, sideboarding plan

Obviously, when you're seeing decks run a lot of nonbasics, Blood Moon is very strong.  However, what decks is it strongest against?
For instance, if I'm seeing several Fish decks in my area, running two Blood Moon in my sideboard seems like a good idea simply because it turns off Wastelands, Factories, and Fetchlands - while at the same time cutting off the opposing player's White base.

In this example, I can easily see myself being cut off from double-blue mana, but it doesn't seem like a huge issue, since Fish decks are designed to make Mana Drain a bad card.  And if the Fish player has lost access to White mana, then Goblin Welder is more likely to stick around, as is the Colossus that I plan on Tinkering up / the Pentavus I'm going to be Welding in.

The obvious cons are that you'll be completely cut off from Yawgmoth's Will unless you can find and resolve Mox Jet or Black Lotus - not huge, but it is a concern.  Keep in mind that Yawgmoth's Will is not the only path to victory, but when discussing the viability of Blood Moon.

[forests failed you]

Blood Moon is an interesting option.  I know that Rich was playing them MD instead of Duress a while back as a modification to the standard Slaver list post GenCon.  However, I'm not sure that it is as potent of a metagame decision as it was then. 

Firstly, Blood Moon used to be really good against Fish because of the high number on nonbasic land they ran, since  you could often keep them off casting blue creature spells in their deck.  However, at this point there is one key differece between old and new fish, 4Aether Vial.  It is really difficult to keep them off casting their guys simply because of this card.  Although it is true if they are playing Nikolo's Fisholos, it is possible to keep them from activating Voidmage, Beating down with Factory, and Wating their lands;  I think the very fact that they have some number of Basic Island in the decks makes it unreasonable to assume that they wouldn't be able to Ninja out their Deep Hours.

Also, when Shay did it the metagame was just past GenCon.  Stax and Shop were weaker and less evolved achetypes then, which were easily massacured by quality Slaver players.  As a result of this  control and aggro control decks were still playing with a higher basic land count.  To be honest, I can't really think of a match up where I would want to board out any card that is already in the MD to bring in Blood Moon except for 3cc, or maybe Tog.

Blood Moon in Slaver could be savage, but I just don't think so right now.  Tuck that tech away until the metagame shifts a little bit.  Perhaps if something from Workshop decks were to get restricted and players felt it was viable to play fewer basics, then Blood Moon would become a beating.

[Xenoben187]

I don't think blood moon will ever be good again, unless someone decides that basic lands just aren't necessary anymore.  The only matchup blood moon has ever tested well against for me is dragon, and I think pithing needle is strictly superior in this slot.
In the control match, black is just too important to drop a blood moon.
In the workshop match, by the time you cast Blood moon, they're dropping their lockpieces with mountains and have already cast their enchantments.
Combo, oh wait, you lose
Fish, I can see merit against fish, but I'd rather have an REB or a Rack and Ruin to hit chalice/rod 9x out of 10.

[Revvik]

Technically, against Combo, you DON'T lose.  Especially against the ones that run the Gemstones and Cities.
Opening with a land and a Mox, as is common, follows to turn 2 Blood Moon at the earliest - soon enough to stop Dark Ritual.

I can see how it's not so potent right now; however, I'll be keeping my eye on when to best use it effectively.

[Xenoben187]

I only really consider 2 types of combo when I think of combo, dragon and TPS.  Against dragon, I already said that pithing needle is just strictly superior to blood moon.  Against TPS, if blood moon hasn't been duress'd on turn 2, chances are you'll run right into a force of will.  Then, between petal, lotus and jet they still have a very good chance of having black mana and win anyways.
Then look at pure combo like long or belcher, chrome mox, mox diamond, petal, chromatic sphere, lotus and jet, you aren't going to be able to screw them off black.
Besides, I'd much rather be looking at a chalice of the void than a blood moon against combo.

[forests failed you]

How do you guys feel about the Pyrite Spellbombs over Pyroclams.  Both cards have their advantages in drawbacks, but I'm pretty happy with the way that the Spellbombs have played out.  In most match ups you don't need to sweep the board of a series of two or less toughness creatures, so Pyroclams is a liability.  Also, since it is recurable it kind of does what pyro does against Goblins, but to a lesser extent.  I also have liked the way that you don't need to play Dart and Clasm since Pyrite has kind of an overlapping ability.  Not to mention that sometimes the bonus card draw, or perment advantage can be really good against Stax and Slaver Mirrors.

[NastyNate]

Spellbombs are pretty sweet actually. The only drawback to the spellbombs at all really, is that they get owned by null rod.

In the event that you are playing against some form of budget aggro-control packing null rods, you're up a creek. Then there's Uba Stax, but luckily in that case your probably boarding in rack and ruin to kill their artifacts, rather than spellbombs to kill their shamen and welders.

I really think darkblast could fill the weenie removal niche better than any other card right now. For a deck built to abuse welders and yawgmoth's will, the dredge recursion could be better than the actual removal spell. But it does cost you actual card draw in order to recur it, where as spellbomb can actually generate card draw.

There are really quite a few good removal spells in this 1-2 casting cost range, and each has some good things going for them, and some bad. In different metagames some are better then others. If pyrite spellbomb is working for you, keep using it.

[Revvik]

I like the pyritespellbombs right now.  They are pretty amazing against aggro, and make up for the fact that Mindslaver does SHIT against aggro more than half the time.  The cycling?  Gravy.  Targeted removal is sometimes a bitch.
Keeo in ming, some Fish decks run Jitte and Chalice over Null Rod, which isn't as good of a gameplain, since it doesn't stop a Mindslaver or Pentavus actiavtion.

I'm enjoying this deck.  and the alchohol I'm taking - friends don't let friends pilot DeMars decks under the influence.

[Polynomial P]

I was skeptical of the spellbombs at first, but they seem pretty good in testing. I know that it is taboo to add more black cards to the deck, but darkblast also looks promising in a CS/welder heavy meta.

[Xenoben187]

I'm still running old man of the sea, I guess alot of people just decided he wasn't good against fish?  I don't know, he's always been nothing short of game every time he's resolved for me.

[NastyNate]

People stopped playing old man, when fish decks started sideboarding kira. Which in turn led to pyroclasm on the part of slaver. It's a revolving metagame thing.

[forests failed you]

I'm not sure if it was Kira, or WTF which played a bunch of Fishes that were too big to be stolen by old man.  Doggy, Lizard, and anything with Jitte on it.  Also, I think that Vedelken Shackles is strictly superior to Old Man of the Sea.  Ninty percent of the time, Null Rod be damned, because my monkey just ate it.  (actually my monkey ate a Mox and then my welder turned the Null Rod back into a Mox and them my Monkey ate it again.  Shackes is hawt.

[MoxMonkey]

My List from the Last waterbury after much testing from the forum ideas and my bad Metagame call.
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
1 demonic tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 mana vault
3 Goblin Welders
1 Mox Monkeys buddie
2 Underground sea
4 volcanic Island
3 Island / -1 Recoup
1 Snow covered Island
4 Fetch
1 LOA
1 Darksteel citadel
1 Tolarian academy
5 Moxen
1 Black lotus
4 Thirst for knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Mana drain
4 Force of will
2 MindSlaver / -1 + 1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Triskelion
1 Sundering titan - What else can it be?
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 tinker
1 Cunning wish / Mana Severance
1 time walk
1 mytical tutor
1 Echoing truth
1 Ancestral recall
1 Fact or fiction

I have now changed it to - 1 Island - Cunning Wish - 1 Mindslaver to add Recoup Mana Severance and Goblin Charabelcher.  I also am in debate of keeping Titan in the deck at all.  He was ok but when you tinker in the mirror more than not you'll win with anything you grab.  I do not like Pentavus.  I can understand if you want to slaver lock someone but in my experiance with this deck for the past 1 and a half years I've never had to lock someone.  After the first Slaver its down hill for them.  I have been trying to figure out some other creature that has a utillity purpose and can beat for some amount of damage, was wondering what others thought.
The Gifts was amazing and its not even the OMG I have will in hand it does the turn 1 Gifts for Island Snow covered Island 2 fetch and Your now set on mana and your deck gives you awesome topdecks.  Its a very good card to play but using it well is something that takes time to figure out.  And worst comes to worst put Lotus Ancestral Walk and Thirst/Fact in a pile and theres a fun time ahead.
Cunning Wish is also a very solid card and proved that to me at Waterbury.  I like having the Severance Belcher because both cards are very powerful in this deck.  Belcher deals with creatures on the board and kills when the time is right.  Severance is awesome because your topdecks are now all golden.
Hoping someone can come up with some cool creatures cause other than Pentavus and Karn I'm out of ideas.

[Revvik]

Pentavus is the new Morphling, though, and his insane interactions with Goblin Welder make him infinitely better than Sundering Titan or any current artifact creature replacement.  He also increases the permanents in play, notably weldable artifacts / artifacts to sac to Smokestack.  He also dodges Goblin Welder and creature removal in the sense that you'll still have creatures after his demise.

You're right in that a single Mindslaver activation is usually enough to seal the game, and focusing on the lock is not the point of the deck - it is just something that happens.  But, infinitely timewalking with Mindslaver while swinging with Pentavus / Pentavites is just like swinging with a 20-point Psychatog or similar one-turn kill - it gives your opponent no room to breathe or wiggle his way out.

[cryolyte]

I have to say that tinkering up pentavus has won me many games against the evil smokestack. My metagame has shifted almost completely to workshop aggro and prison variants. Why exactly is Blood Moon not so good against them? The only shop decks I see that run any good amount of basic lands is Uba Stax (and Blood Moon shuts down their Bazaar engine), so shouldn't Blood Moon be pretty good right now? I put a couple in the maindeck and switched around the mana base a bit, and will test next week, as long as enough people show up for the tournament to actually run (@REVVIK) 

[MoxMonkey]

Blood Moon is Good in a Chicago like metagame.  Right now in general Gifts and CS are the big decks in NE and they run 4-6 Basics so Blood Moon is terrible.  If your metagame calls for it put a couple main and run 5-6 basic islands.

[vroman]

blood moon is bad. how many duals/fetches are you playing? those are all now mountains and your odds of having double blue available for drain diminishes terribly. I would gladly have opp spend a card to make my workshops and bazaars tap for 1, in exchange for not having to worry about mana drain or color screw.

[Revvik]

I wouldn't run Blood Moon in DeMars's current list, since I sometimes have way too many troubles getting to two blue reliably in the face of Wastelands.  If there weren't two Darksteel Citadels, or maybe even one additional Island replacing something else, then Blood Moon could land reliably with two Islands still in the clear.

cryolyte - PM sent, yo.

[Disburden]

I posted this lately on SCG Vintage strategy and deck decussion thread:

"Post subject: Should Slaver adopt Tinker-Colossus permanently?     
 
Lately Gifts decks have been rampant, especially since Brassman's success with his build using TFK. Does slaver actually have the ability to compete with this powerful deck type now that Gifts runs Pithing Needles and more piles of counter magic with Merchant Scroll back up?

Dark blast is soon finding it's way into Gifts decks as well.

Pithing Needle will always name Welders in the CS matchup for Gifts, if they use their tutors and more counter magic with scroll tutoring to resolve needle will this prove to be a huge dissadvantage for the Slaver player? Pentavus is one of Slavers more effective tools, especially against stax; but does it need to move to the SB and step over for the Tinker-Colossus gameplan to just steal games the way Gifts decks have been as of late?

Any comments? "

I wanted to know what all of you felt on the subject and I think this is a good question to ask (not just because I asked it :lol:). Do we need that game one boost Vs Gifts?

[mulder]

Well, I"ve been testing Tinker-DSC in Control Slaver and I've yet to regret it. A first turn Colossus just says "I win" against lots of decks. I think that every deck that plays Tinker should include DSC (apart from Stax maybe).

[rakso]

I wanted to know what all of you felt on the subject and I think this is a good question to ask (not just because I asked it :lol:). Do we need that game one boost Vs Gifts?

Colossus or no, just run at least two Shamans main.

[Disburden]

I wanted to know what all of you felt on the subject and I think this is a good question to ask (not just because I asked it :lol:). Do we need that game one boost Vs Gifts?

Colossus or no, just run at least two Shamans main.

I have been and I wouldn't take them out for anything.