[Single Card Discussion] Izzet Guildmage wtfbbq

[pyr0ma5ta]

Izzet Guildmage -
Creature - Human Wizard (U)
2U: Copy target instant spell you control with converted mana cost 2 or less. You may choose new targets for the copy.
2R: Copy target sorcery spell you control with converted mana cost 2 or less. You may choose new targets for the copy.
2/2

Discuss.  Pretty sure this is ridiculous somehow.  More timewalks/recalls/anything seems fine.

[Lunar]

UU or RR or UR for a 2/2 with that effect isnt too shabby I suppose...anybody up for some Kiodo Counter Burn action, heh..

Even though this one is from the kinda main spoiler guy (rancored_elf) I always have to take spoilers this far ahead of time with a grain of salt..thing can and usually do change..

[pyr0ma5ta]

Yeah, Rancored's sources are amazing, he had the entire Ravnica spoiler up a whole month before pre-release, and only 1 card in the set was incorrect (moonlight bargain, BB3 cc, not BB2).  I'd take it almost on faith that htis is correct.  I was actually thinking something along the lines of UR, UB, URB fish with Confidants, Cutpurse, Lavamancer, and this guy.  Seems pretty good to copy brainstorms or recalls or whatever brokenness you can pull out.  Too bad Fish plays very little brokeness...Can this (decidedly strong) ability be abused in some kind of combo?  Already there's a infinite combo in standard...

Turn 1 Land, elf/birds
turn 2 guildmage
turn 3 Seething song, Lava spike splice desperate ritual, copy, resolve the copy, copy, resolve the copy, rinse and repeat until opponent dies.

[Machinus]

The deck that this seems like it would be good in is U/R fish, but it is the opposite of good in that deck. Fish runs small, cheap spells. There is nothing powerful enough to be worth paying 3 mana to copy. The deck doesn't run tutors and a few broken cards like recall and walk. The deck can't afford to waste tempo to double weaker effects, and copying recall/walk would only happen very rarely.

Maybe this could be played in spring tide?

[pyr0ma5ta]

Spring Tide?  What's that, high tide combo?

I realized that Fish won't want to play Fork effects.  I suggested at the end of my last post that combo of some type might want it, but I can't figure out what.  Maybe I'm just a retarded ignorant forum troll.

[Chamelet]

Yeah, I really think this is too slow. 2 mana to cast a 2/2 is ok. Specially if it's U/R U/R. But copying spells for 3 is really not that usefull. I guess you could copy Burning Wish to make an infinite Wish deck, like that Mirari's Wake thing, but that would be also slow. Well, but if Life from the Loam can make it, maybe this one can, so I guess speed is not that big of an issue. Remember that if the original spell is countered, you will lose 3 mana to nothing, and that isn't great, at all.
With a fast analysis, what this could copy?

2U:
Ancestral Recall - 2UU for 6 cards rocks! This would be good in any deck that could afford it.

Vamp. Tutor & Mystical Tutor - useless

Brainstorm - well, paying 2U to see 1 more card is pointless, unless you fetch between the two Brains

Impulse - double impulse is nice, but in a deck that packs Impulse and so probably wants to win fast, do you want a 2/2 slow creature

Echoing Truth - well, this could be an extra in a deck that already packs it. 2U to return one extra thing would be nice.

Dark Ritual - useless! 2U for BBB? Well, use Initiates of the Ebon Hand if you want to filter mana.

Cabal Ritual - 2U for BBBBB is more likely. But combo would probably never use this just because it would probably cost 5 mana to play and activate. You can win with that mana.

Crop Rotation - I don't see Crop Rotation being that good doubled. In fat you could seach Tolarian and Strip Mine or LoA and that would be good after all.

Mana Drain - Yeah, doubleing counters is great. Specially Mana Drain since winning a counter war with double-Drain almost garantees a victory in your next main phase (unless this is already you first main phase)

Diabolic Edict - Bye Oath? Nah... Oath can counter the original and get rid of the copy in response.

2R:
Time Walk - This is great. Playing another 2 turns is a win. Period. This is where this guy could shine - Recall and Walk.

Burning Wish - Infinite Wish and the Slow Vintage. What would you do with infinite wishes? Infinite Wills, infinite Tinkers? For what?

Recoup & Regrowth - This could be also interesting, aside from being sorcery speed slow as hell.

Balance - this would be funny!

Life from the Loam - Returning 6 lands to your hand w/ Bazaar on the table is like an Ancestral Recall. But Loam still have to prove itself worth.

Duress - 2UB for 2 cards? Nah...

I can't remember anything other than those and something is clear: this guy's place is probably something like Fish. A deck where he could do stuff, but nothing would revolve around his abilities. Isn't it?

[vroman]

once you put a spell on the stack, you get priority back and can use an effect like this izzet guy to put a copy on the stack too. if enemy counters the original spell, the copy is still there waiting to resolve.
the benefits of the izzet guy are that the spell can be copied an indefinite # of times, unlike twincast. if you are sitting on a fat board w tolarian academy and have say 10 mana, then you can cast ancestral recall and copy it 3 times, drawing 12 cards. you can respond to each copy resolving as still as the original is still on the stack too. for example, if you draw a mystical tutor off the 1st ancestral copy, you can cast it in response to your original ancestral, and then let it resolve, and then still in response to original ancestral, make another ancestral copy, then let that resolve, draw your tutored instant, and cast it still in response to original ancestral.
even on spells that are redunadant to be copied ie yawg will, izzet can effectively make it uncounterable, by responding to their counter magic w a copy creation, to ensure at least one instance of it resolves. this may be too mana intensive to be vintage playable, but its definitely powerful abilities.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Unfortunately Yawg cannot be copied: mana cost 2 or less.  But copying a Time Walk, Mana drain, Ancestral Recall, Impuse, or Brainstorm (with fetch) seems fine, although slightly mana intensive.  The fact that he's also a bear with a nice casting cost is of course great. 

[yespuhyren]

Whats the point of copying yawgwill.  Nothing makes it back into graveyard for re-use, and if you do use yawgwill once, its for the whole turn.  There is no reason to play more than 1 will in 1 turn.

[LotusHead]

Izzet Guildmage -
Creature - Human Wizard (U)
2U: Copy target instant spell you control with converted mana cost 2 or less. You may choose new targets for the copy.
2R: Copy target sorcery spell you control with converted mana cost 2 or less. You may choose new targets for the copy.
2/2
 

I'd consider this as a 1 of in almost any deck with blue and instants.

It can use extra Accumulated Knowledge, Ancestral Recall, Brainstorms, Mana Drains, Echoing Truths, etc.

Also, Izzet Guildmage might make some Isochron Scepter deck truly Viable again. (where DID I put my ICT proxy deck, anyways?).

[The Atog Lord]

Look out, Type Four!

[Chamelet]

once you put a spell on the stack, you get priority back and can use an effect like this izzet guy to put a copy on the stack too. if enemy counters the original spell, the copy is still there waiting to resolve.

You're opponent can counter your spell in response to Izzet's activation, can't he? (that's what I was originally thinking of)
You target the spell, than your opponent counters it in response, then you have no legal targets anymore.
Anyway, I know his ability is awesomely powerful. Just don't think it's worthy the slot, unless, as I said, in decks like Fish where everything is a little threat.

[goobafish]

This card is specifically terrible in Fish. The fact is if you've played fish, when do you ever have 3 mana open on top of what you are casting? Between Factories, Strip/Wastes and a fragile mana base, you will never have the mana to use this card.

[shadowmage006]

You're opponent can counter your spell in response to Izzet's activation, can't he? (that's what I was originally thinking of)
You target the spell, than your opponent counters it in response, then you have no legal targets anymore.
Anyway, I know his ability is awesomely powerful. Just don't think it's worthy the slot, unless, as I said, in decks like Fish where everything is a little threat.

well yes, but remember that when you play a spell first your opponent has a chance to cast instants, then you can, if either of you DOES use an abiltiy or cast an instant, then the cycle repeats and the other player can respond etc, then the person who cast the spell.

If you choose not to use an ability or instant than it resolves. Now if you DO (as in use guildmage ability or something else) THEN your opponent can respond, and counter it. But if they pass their 1st chance to counter it in anticipation that you will copy,, and you end up NOT copying it, then they're pretty much screwed then aren't they? Becasue then nobody can respond anymore and the spell resolves.

and if they counter it at thier first chance, then you can just copy in response, the copy resolves, then the counter resolves countering the original.

[Whatever Works]

If the card is correct:

It is horrible in Fish.

It has potential in combo. (There has to be a couple of infinite combo's with it Cabal Ritual not being 1 of them)...

Interesting Card... but it will likely be a bust like Isocron Scepter... Not that scepter was a complete bust upon release...

Kyle

[pyr0ma5ta]

Everyone in this thread, including myself, agrees that this card is terrible in fish.  I was asking if there's a combo deck that I've never heard of, but others might have, that can abuse this card.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Conversely, if the wording was slightly wrong and "you control" was innappropriately added...this would be an autoinclude in Fish.

[GMontag]

well yes, but remember that when you play a spell first your opponent has a chance to cast instants, then you can, if either of you DOES use an ability or cast an instant, then the cycle repeats and the other player can respond etc, then the person who cast the spell.

If you choose not to use an ability or instant than it resolves. Now if you DO (as in use guildmage ability or something else) THEN your opponent can respond, and counter it. But if they pass their 1st chance to counter it in anticipation that you will copy,, and you end up NOT copying it, then they're pretty much screwed then aren't they? Because then nobody can respond anymore and the spell resolves.

and if they counter it at their first chance, then you can just copy in response, the copy resolves, then the counter resolves countering the original.

You have that backwards. After you play a spell or ability, you have priority immediately. That means that you have to choose whether or not to copy the spell you just played without knowing if your opponent is going to counter it. Now if it is a must-counter spell for your opponent, then you can use the Guildmage for insurance, as you can just copy it in response to any counterspell he plays.

[Robert the Swordsman]

Am I incorrect in assuming that you can copy a spell with this card more than once?

If this is the case, wouldn't this be devastating late game?

[pyr0ma5ta]

The must-counter spells that cost 2 or less in vintage are all amazing in multiples.  Ancestral Recall, Time walk, Brainstorm (with fetch between copies), mana drain (on his force of will)...

If your opponent throws up a mana drain on your Recall, you can just choose to pay 3 mana and put another copy of the recall on the stack, which resolves first.  Eventually his counter will resolve, and the recall itself will get countered, but you'll still get your 3 cards off the copy.

Also, if you mana drain a decent sized spell, get your drain countered, and copy your drain, you get extra mana in your pool next main phase!  And that's...pretty good.

[Cross]

This creature is also blue blastable and red blastable is it not?

Which last i checked, even stax is running now.

Therefore trumping worldgorger as the new most removeable creature in the format.

[UR]

Turn 1 Land, elf/birds
turn 2 guildmage
turn 3 Seething song, Lava spike splice desperate ritual, copy, resolve the copy, copy, resolve the copy, rinse and repeat until opponent dies.

Replace the Seething Song with a Desperate Ritual and it will work.

Anyway, I consider this card to be pretty good with Mana Drain. I just don't think it is really competative in Vintage. It may be good in T2 or Extended, but there is sooooo much creature removal going on there that it probably won't stay around very long.

If this is the case, wouldn't this be devastating late game?

In one word; yes.

[ozimek]

If the card is correct:

It has potential in combo. (There has to be a couple of infinite combo's with it Cabal Ritual not being 1 of them)...

Kyle

Maybe in some High Tide-Reset-combo? You don't need that many Islands and/or High Tides for Reset to go infinite.

(Not saying that its a good deck in the first place)

/Jan

[forests failed you]

At that point why not just play Auriok Salvagers?  It seems to be a much neater and well packaged combo, that is easier to get off.

As far as limited play is concerned he seems as though he would be decent, but as far as the other Guildmages are concerned, he doesn't look so good.  (With respect to limited play)  Although making a copy of Lightning Helix in limited seems pretty spicy...

[pyr0ma5ta]

I was thinking more along the lines of copying Glimpse the Unthinkable in limited

Um, Auriok Salvagers costs 4 mana in the worst color in magic, and requires 1 more in that color to go off.  I still think this cad is busted somehow, but since nobody can figure out exactly how, I give up 

[Fantaman]

Izzet Guildmage -
Creature - Human Wizard (U)
2U: Copy target instant spell you control with converted mana cost 2 or less. You may choose new targets for the copy.
2R: Copy target sorcery spell you control with converted mana cost 2 or less. You may choose new targets for the copy.
2/2

This creature on the professional meta TIER 1...is not so powerfull...

I suppose that in every Vintage or Legacy deck there's no space for a creature that has an activated ability with 2 or more mana...

If you watch out Meddling Mages or other creatures that can Lock Tier 1's decks are different! Welder...no mana...Gorilla shaman is used
with only one mana....and many many others.

This creature is strong only for casing cost and for an aggro deck    so no life in T1.

It's nice to copy an ancestral or time walk....but you have to tap 4 or 5 mana.... On the first or second turn isn't possible until you have possibility to start every game with 3 or four moxes in hand. Seems to be a Dream! 

Nice creautre but Dead card. 

Byez!

Fantaman