The Many Faces of Control Slaver

[Eandori]

I was trying to cover as much ground as I can really. 

I found that Wasteland not only helps against Stax, but it's great against Gifts, Dragon, Landstill, Strawberry Crush, Oath, Psychatog, and a few others.  Rack and Ruin might be better in some cases against Stax, but then it does nothing for me in those other matchups.

[MoxMonkey]

Blood Moon Does more than Watseland in All those matchups. 

[Eandori]

no no no, Blood Moon is BAD!  I need my blue and although I do run 2 basic Islands, Blood Moon would probably screw me up more then them!

Wasteland is still preferred over that.

[MoxMonkey]

I question why your List has only 2 islands.  Blood Moon is House right now and I don't know how you get your colors up and bring in Wastelands.  I would run 3-5 Basic Islands I don't know how your stax matchup has been with only 2.

[Eandori]

Well, simply put it hasn't been a problem yet.  The fact I run welder and crucible allows me to recover/defend mana FAR more then other decks that don't have those. 

My mana base was one of my worst issues until I added Crucible.  Which is one reason I'm singing the praises of Crucible in Slaver.

[Lou]

I agree with MoxMonkey here.  Up your basic Island count and find a way to get those Blood Moons in there.

[The Atog Lord]

Blood Moon is just great. Against the mirror match, with both players running Islands, then of course it won't do all that much. However, more and more decks just roll over to it. Dragon, of course, but that goes without saying. Have you seen what happens when Blood Moon resolves against Uba Stax, though? Despite its being a mono red deck, Uba Stax does pretty badly against this card. Bazaar, Workshop, and Barbarian Ring comprise a large part of the deck's strategy. With those cards just basic mountains,  you are hurting both their removal and their draw engine.

[forests failed you]

So do you know what is savage in the Slaver sideboard?  Solem Similacrum.

I'm not going to tell you why, but I will tell you that it just is.
Laugh all you want, they will definately be in my board at Waterbury.

[orgcandman]

So do you know what is savage in the Slaver sideboard?  Solem Similacrum.

I'm not going to tell you why, but I will tell you that it just is.
Laugh all you want, they will definately be in my board at Waterbury.

Actually, I tested this last year, and you are mistaken sir. Without active welder, simulacrum is nothing more than pitch fodder to thirst. And if you don't have a thirst or a welder, it's a 4cc drain on resources. It fetches out a basic you might respond with. Well that's true, but fetches do that to, and they don't cost 4. Oh, but slaver runs pentavus/slaver/titan/colossus/insert other large cc artifact. Well, that's true, but those things actually do something if you invest in them.

It draws a card when it dies, you'll further counter with. Well again, also strong, but what creatures are currently in vintage? There aren't an overabundance of groundpounders where the card advantage would mean anything, which means you've paid 4 for a shock every turn, congratz!

I wanted him to be good in vintage, and I tested him in everything from Broodstar Runner, to stax, to Control Slaver, and even Keeper. Everytime I saw him, I wished he were something else.

[Eandori]

I have to agree, the Simulacrum does have some combo's with Welder, but there are just better card choices.  Slaver plays best either going 2 speeds, playing aggresively and getting mana on the table, drawing cards and setting up the lock pieces, OR, playing defensively and trying to drain into mana for Thirst/Gifts/Fact/etc.  To push you ahead for the win.

Simulacrum is not aggresive enough because you spend 4 mana, tapping out early game, risking a drain and telling your opponent your only defense is FoW.  If he makes it into play, all you have is a 2/2 but you might lose the game at that point because he had more counter power then you had FoW on his turn and on your EOT.  So his Oath/Tanglewire/Pithing Needle/Meddling Mage/Null Rod/Back to Basics/etc.  made it into play and now you are behind the 8 ball to win.

Now, as for the amount of Basic lands...  Here's what I can say about it.

You guys are talking from the experience of a DIFFERENT version of Slaver.  My version has a different feel then those with Fire/Ice, no gifts, etc.  I have no doubts that in other lists of Slaver, like what Brian DeMars plays, 4 islands is a better choice.  In my list, I'm really happy with my mana base just like it is.

[Eandori]

Why not just play Rack and Ruin over Wastes?  They are more devastating, and you should be able to support 3 mana with basic lands.  Your own wastes don't do dick when they have their own crucible.

Sorry, I missed responding to the 2nd part of this reply.

If I'm playing 4 Drains, 4 FoW, 2 Disenchant(SB), 1 Shaman(SB), 4 Welders, 1 Trike(SB, for his welders), 2 Plows (SB, for his welders) then there's a greater then average chance he might not HAVE  his own Crucible.

[forests failed you]

I'm telling you it is good.  I've tested it.  But, I'm probably wrong.  I clearly don't know what I am talking about.

It is so good against Stax and Fish that it is actually retarded.

[MoxMonkey]

I can see him good against Stax and fish but how has he been in Control Mirrors?  He just gets boarded out right?

[God_Campbell]

I can see him good against Stax and fish but how has he been in Control Mirrors?  He just gets boarded out right?

I think Bryan has the solems in the Sb and brings them in vs fish and stax.
I kinda like the idea and is something to test in the future.

[orgcandman]

I'm telling you it is good.  I've tested it.  But, I'm probably wrong.  I clearly don't know what I am talking about.

It is so good against Stax and Fish that it is actually retarded.

Woah, man, slow down. I didn't say you didn't know what you were talking about. But when it comes to a new england metagame, simulacrum is way too slow.

It's awful in the fish matchup where they have plenty of ways of dealing with your welders, and the threat of daze / spiketail hatchling means hardcasting it is impossible.  (U/W fish has swords and beb for welders)

Against stax, I'm sure it's good, but is that enough to warrant 4 slots in the board, especially for a matchup that you're already got game against? I could see putting maybe 1 in the board as a "cute trick" but other than that they're eating into your business slots.

However, I WILL retest these two matchups this weekend.

[austinnadz]

So do you know what is savage in the Slaver sideboard?  Solem Similacrum.

I'm not going to tell you why, but I will tell you that it just is.
Laugh all you want, they will definately be in my board at Waterbury.

It draws a card when it dies, you'll further counter with. Well again, also strong, but what creatures are currently in vintage? There aren't an overabundance of groundpounders where the card advantage would mean anything, which means you've paid 4 for a shock every turn, congratz!

I would say that regardless of what is on the board, card advantage is everything. How can you avoid "groundpounders" or big creatures without cards in your hand, or drawpower? And shock or no, I'd take a chump blocker every turn that draws me answers if I had the choice.

Eandori, I would say that your version of slaver is merely focused towards your meta, not superior to other builds, or inferior by all means. You've done what you needed to do to win. You've defended your version very well justifying your reasons for cards. I would find no reason to run all of the cards that you run, not meaning you shouldn't run those cards.

[orgcandman]

...

I would say that regardless of what is on the board, card advantage is everything. How can you avoid "groundpounders" or big creatures without cards in your hand, or drawpower? And shock or no, I'd take a chump blocker every turn that draws me answers if I had the choice.

The point with simulacrum is to march him to his death so that you dig for cards. My point is that there aren't very many big creatures anymore, and the ones that ARE big and around have a bit tattoo of "Indestructible" plastered to their chest. Since he doesn't fly, he's worthless in the oath matchup (No one would waste time chumping him since he'd be a  4cc shock), he's not as hot against fish (they're all 1/1's, and they have spiketail / daze to make him 4+ cc, and you can't drain into him since nothing they have costs more than 2, so you'll be tapped out), and he's awful against gifts running explosives / needle because they'll just remove welders, making him not a lot of card advantage.

He's good enough in stax, as he gets 2 resources that they typically attack, and can be drained into. I'm not sure about the CS mirror, but my bet would be that he could theoretically make the cut there (but I haven't tested these, yet).

Especially in control slaver, if you have 4 mana, and an active welder, shouldn't you be focusing on getting something stronger into play?

The thought about chump blockers is basically awful, since pentavus should give you all the blockers you need. And 4 mana + active welder == slaver.

but then again, what do I know?

[seer]

I like the idea of boarding simulcrum in. He's pretty good in some matchups (fish/stax??)

[Zeke]

Simulacrum is a great card.  Believe me, I am in now way saying the opposite.  I love the guy.

HOWEVER...there are better things you can do and at cheaper costs.  Activating mindslaver and winning the game comes to mind, and it costs the same as Jens.  Rack and Ruin costs 1 less, and blows up stax's threats, as opposed to playing AROUND them.  Chalice can prevent Fish's critters from seeing play...Fire/Ice can blow dem up good.

It's a good card, but there are better options.

[seer]

It's true that you'd rather cast rack and ruin most of the time (against stax). And it seems that it has basically the same cost, rack and ruin costs 3 and simulcrum costs 3 (with TFK in hand and welder in play).

Of course you can be pro-active and hardcast simulcrum when nothing is going on in the game where-as rack and ruin just sits in your hand.

Also, TFK-> simulcrum does not force you to fetch out a red mana source. Of course, you probably have one in play if a welder is in play.

[Zeke]

When does ansobulte nothing happen in the game in which you would want to hardcast a 4cc permanent that doesn't win you the game?

Like I said...there are just better things to do and better cards to play in this deck.

[Hi-Val]

I'm telling you it is good.  I've tested it.  But, I'm probably wrong.  I clearly don't know what I am talking about.

It is so good against Stax and Fish that it is actually retarded.

I'll make my wager now that this is an elaborate hoax to see how many people stuff Jens on their board for tournaments just because you posted that it was good. It would make even more sense because you give zero reasons why. At least it's more plausible than our Tarpan tech.

Divining Top is better than Simulacrum from everything I can see and that doesn't get played in CS, even though it really should. Four-mana artifacts that don't win the game straight-up are pretty hard to justify if your deck doesn't run this land I heard of called Mishra's Workshop. If I'm playing something to beat Fish and Stax and it's an artifact, it'll be either Trike or Pentavus.

[Lou]

Divining Top is better than Simulacrum from everything I can see and that doesn't get played in CS, even though it really should.

Has anyone tested with the Top?  I tried to fit in two copies, but just can not figure out two cards to take out.  One I can fit, but I don't think one copy is enough, and not worth it.

[Godot]

I tested Top a fair amount many months ago.  It can do some really nice stuff,  but in the end I felt that just running a real card that did stuff was better.  Top shines against control, but it is subpar against most other stuff, and it gets even worse with the rising number of Null Rods in the metagame.

[vroman]

re: blood moon
this card is ASS. I would happily have slaver cast this against me. sure I lose efficiency from lots of fancy lands, but you lose a card and like 80% of your blue sources. slaver without having double blue up and ready, is not scary. also permanent based hosers are risky due to smokestack.

re: solemn
I played this card purely w the stax mirror in mind. for slaver, jens seems like a good drain dump, and all around solid card advantage play, esp w welder.
its also very efficient against ground-aggro aka goblins.

[Lou]

re: blood moon
this card is ASS. I would happily have slaver cast this against me. sure I lose efficiency from lots of fancy lands, but you lose a card and like 80% of your blue sources. slaver without having double blue up and ready, is not scary. also permanent based hosers are risky due to smokestack.

Seriously?  Ass?  I still have at least four Islands, and you have only Mountains now.  No 3 Mana every turn, no discard 3 every turn, no waste my new Mountains.  I just don't get this one at all.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

You forgot that it stops barbarian ring. Like, un-opposed welders wreck uba stax.

Ofcourse it's still a 3cc red enchantment (meaning I have to cast it on my mainphase) that doesn't affect stax. Personally, I'd run with a pair of hurkyl's.

[The Atog Lord]

When I started playing Magic, I had a card named Gray Orge. He was good enough to make the cut in my early decks, until I got my hands on a Hurloon Minotaur.

Against Fish, if we're going to resolve something expensive, how about Old Man of the Sea? He's really good against fish, stealing their guys and blocking pretty much their entire team. And, of course, he's even cheaper than Jens. And Jens doesn't really survive an encounter with a Lion or a Dog. Old Man does. Sometimes he even steals their dog.

Against Stax, Jens is four mana for two permanents: a basic land and a bear. For just one mana, Sarcomancy gives us a bear and a Smokestack offering, and that's not seeing much play. Not that I'd ever advocate playing that card in Slaver. For just three mana, we could enjoy Rack and Ruin or Energy Flux. I'd much rather have either of those cards against an artifact-heavy deck.

Now, perhaps you might say -- consider how good Jens is with an active Welder! Yes, he sure is. But then, for four mana, a Gifts or Intuition can win you the game with an active Welder; Jens just becomes a clunky draw engine. Against Stax, an active Welder doesn't need all that much help to be amazing anyways. And as High-Val pointed out, Top is a fine card for abusing Welder, without the unfortunate downside of being a four mana artifact that does nothing close to winning you the game.

Now, I could well be wrong. Perhaps I'm completely missing something with Jens. But I have a hard time believing that a better sideboard option couldn't be found against Fish or Stax.

[Pave]

I imagine that 2 Jens might replace the 2 Pyrite Spellbombs that forcefieldyou used v. Fish.  Instead of a Fire/Ice in an artifact, vulnerable to Null Rod, you have a guy immune to Rod (note how forcefieldyou also replaced Trike w. Duplicant) who, welded in, fetches you a basic island, can block, put damage on stack, then get welded out again for a card.  Weld him back in for another island and repeat.  Seems solid v. Fish, and better than Duplicant in this match up, which I tend to find one of Slaver's more difficult.  Pyroclasm kills your own welders and there ought to be better tech than that.  Old Man is great but he is not an artifact.  Shackles would be perfect if it weren't for Null Rod.  Jens could be good v. Fish.

Blood Moon I tend to think as good against any variety of Stax not because it limits how many blue I have open but precisely because it protects my lands against strip effects.  It further stops the welder-hate, acceleration and draw engine of UbaStax, which seems good, though if vroman says he doesn't fear it I will think again.

[The Atog Lord]

I realize that Blood Moon isn't the Be-All End-All against Uba Stax, and there are plenty of times when a Rack and Ruin would be a better card. However, I have been surprised by how strong the card is in the match, and if there is a Blood Moon already in your sideboard, it is probably worthwhile to bring it in against Uba Stax.