Solidarity/High Tide: Legacy Powerhouse, Vintage Viable?

[SycoMage]

Everyone know that Solidarity is a bomb in Legacy!  But, can it be a viable deck in the current Vintage scene? I have currently been enjoying this deck. I want to take it to tourneys. But, most are vintage. So, what improvements does this deck get if built Vintage legal? Other than the ability of moxen to add to the storm count, what else is there. I have played this vs. Vintage decks, it handles well. Here is my build, if no one knows what it looks like.....


2 Reset
4 High Tide
3 Brain Freeze
4 Force of Will
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
2 Peek
4 Opt
2 Cunning Wish
3 Snap
3 Turnabout
2 Impulse
3 Meditate
3 Words of Wisdom
1 Mystical Tutor

Mana – 16

13 Snow-Covered Island
3 Island

Sideboard - 15

1 Stroke of Genius
1 Reins of Power
1 Brain Freeze
1 Words of Wisdom
1 Rebuild
1 Evacuation
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Hydroblast
3 Tormod’s Crypt

I am a welder player in Vintage, and I see a lot of room in that scene for a deck like Solidarity to make a dent. Can it and will it be viable?

[pyr0ma5ta]

This is actually one of the decks that might be able to abuse Izzet Guildmage.  Reset + guildmage = infinite pretty quickly.

You probably want to include Mana Drain in some shape or form, and cut Snap.  There's no guarentee there will be any targets.  Oh, and where's your broken cards?  Ancestral Recall, Timetwister, Time Walk, Mind's Desire (?), Black Lotus, Time Spiral...

[SycoMage]

Remember that the above decklist is a Legacy build not Vintage. Are the power broken cards are a must add? A.Recall is the only must I see. But how good would a card like time walk be if the deck is designed to "go off" during your opponents upkeep? The same with Moxen or Lotus. If you draw them while comboing, they are dead cards......Izzet Guildmage would be fun...but it takes away from the instant speed the deck has. Does a deck like this have a shot in Vintage?

[etakspeelstae]

Sorcery speed cards arn't good in Solidarity (except lands  ). Ancestral Recall is obviously a MUST in this deck, but I would also advise alot of changes to your build to convert to Vintage...

4 Reset
4 High Tide
3 Brain Freeze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
2 Flash of Insight
3 Twincast
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
1 Ancestral Recall

Mana – 18

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
6 Snow-Covered Island
6 Island

I believe 4 Wish is a must to have an out against Chalice ASAP, since you it hits

Chalice @ 1: 1 Ancestral Recall, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Opt, 4 High Tide

Chalice @ 2: 4 Reset, 3 Twincast, 4 Impulse, 3 Brain Freeze

I think you won't need the SB space for Blue Blasts, so Rebuild should be a 4-of depending if Stax is a contender in your metagame. A possible Red splash for SB R&R could be in order?

[Brutha]

In my opinion Time Walk is to good to be dropt. You need 2-3 Lands into play as soon as possible so you should play Walk.
Same with Lotus and the On color Mox, you need to be as fast as possible in Vintage.

Frantic Search is a card that should definatly be added to a High Tide List.

The important question is whether your decks is fast enough to survive with only 4 Force of Will for Distruption.

[Mastaq]

Why would you play a combo deck that wins on turn 4? As opposed to playing something like Grim Long, Belcher, or Dragon. Which can all win by the second turn.

[SycoMage]

Those decks win on turn 2 50% of the time. I win turn 4 75-90% of the time. I like my odds. I have never played agaist a deck that wins that early consitantly.

[Mastaq]

In the same token can't they win on turn 3 75-90% of the time? (Not to sound like a douche bag.)

[Nehptis]

I could'nt comment fully until you post a proposed Vintage build.  But, if you stay along the Legacy build lines the problem is that you have a Storm win conditon just like GrimLong, TPS, Gifts, etc., however you lack either the speed or disruption that those decks have.  Also, unless you add it, you currently lack the DSC win condition, as well.

[Buttons]

I don't exactly know the percentages, but undisrupted, isn't JD's Belcher build usually alot better than 50% second turn?

I would assume it's close to 50% FIRST turn.  Maybe a little lower, like 40%, but everytime I've goldfished with it, I've gone off second turn, and alot of times first.

[Dante]

Decks this far in the "early design/needs improvement" stage go here - Dante

[Sinister Minister]

Why run impulse in this deck when it would seem peer through depths is strictly better in a deck with nothing but instants?

[Nazdakka]

Why run impulse in this deck when it would seem peer through depths is strictly better in a deck with nothing but instants?

Because Peer Through Depths doesn't get lands. There are loooong threads on Solidarity both here and on the Source, which cover this question and most of the rest of the deck design many times over.

Links:
TMD Thread
Newer thread on The Source
Old thread on The Source

Anyhow, despite giving you all that information, I'm really posting to tell you that I don't think Solidarity really is going to work in Vintage in anything like the form you see it in Legacy. Why? The only relavent cardboard in the entire deck before turn 3 is 4 Force of Will, and turn 3 (that is to say, your opponent's turn 4 when you're on the draw, your opponent's turn 3 when you're on the play) is the earliest the Legacy version can hope to win. Sure, being able to add Frantic Search and Ancestral will speed you up a little, maybe as much as half a turn, but the deck simply can't go any faster than that. The limiting factor is land drops - a 2 land combo is theoretically possible, but I've played the deck for a long time and never pulled it off. Winning with 3 lands is certainly do-able, but you really want 4 lands in play for a safe combo turn which can batter through disruption without fizzling.

About the lists: The list in the opening post is dreadful. Reset is your best untapper and the card the rest of the deck is built around, and so should unquestionably be a 4-of. Snap is borderline playable in Legacy, but in Vintage there are fewer creatures around, so it should stay away. Words of Wisdom is weak - there is an arguement for one in the maindeck, but it's worse than so many other spells when you're using it for things other than finishing the kill. Try one of the later lists in the threads I posted if you want a good starting point.

Etakspeelstae's list looks pretty good. Frantic Search is a great card and IMO should be added - we'd use it in Legacy if it was legal. Mystical Tutor is borderline in Legacy, but in Vintage you can go get Ancestral Recall, so I'd definitely run the single copy allowed.

Anyway, I'm curious to know from the original poster about what opposition he hopes to beat with this deck. I can't really see a way for Solidarity to have any hope against Stax, and I think it likely that most pure combo and combo-control decks can just ignore your puny 4 FoWs and win first. Even Fish is already well-equipped to handle this kind of thing, it can drop quick Chalices and Meddling Mage your Tides and Wishes. Unless you live in a world of random aggro and Landstill-esque board control, bringing Solidarity along feels like bringing a small table knife to a gun fight.

[Whatever Works]

I played high tide in T1 last year to an undefeated swiss record and a top 4... And it also won a tournement in denmark semi recently. Here is a list for reference... Primarily because I think the lists posted are just way to slow and not very broken in any aspect...

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x High Tide
3x Gifts Ungiven
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Tinker
1x Memory Jar
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Regrowth
1x Fastbond
1x Crop Rotaton
1x Timetwister
1x Time Spiral
1x Mind's Desire
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Frantic Search
1x Rebuild
1x Echoing Truth
1x Gush
1x Cunning Wish
1x Tendrils of Agony

1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Pearl
1x Sol Ring
1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Crypt
1x Lotus Petal

3x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
2x Island
2x Snow-Covered Island
3x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Tolarian Academy

Sideboard: 15
3x Xantid Swarm
3x Engineered Plague
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Hydroblast
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Darksteel Colossus
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Rushing River
1x Gifts Ungiven
1x Brain Freeze

Gush/Frantic Search are amazing... and if fastbond ever resolves the game ends.

[TheUprisal]

Gush/Frantic Search are amazing... and if fastbond ever resolves the game ends.

QFT

Fastbond IS this deck in Vintage...Ideas Unbound also wins the game for you. 

I'm also of the company that believes this deck runs perfectly fine with Twiddle/Dreams Grip in place of Reset. 

Oh, DREAM HALLS.  This is the deck Dream Halls was made for. 


I run High Tide in my scrub no-proxy meta and walk all over people.  It turns into "search for Dream Halls, Resolve Dream Halls, GG" or
Win off fastbond or
Just win from too much gas

This deck is solid.  If it can keep up w/ Belcher/Grim Long it is arguably just as good.

[UR]

Is it just me or does this deck seem worse than TPS in almost every way? You are trying to accomplish the same and this deck just doesn't seem broken like TPS can be.

[The Chosen One]

One strenth I think this deck has just like any mono U is no non basic lands.

I agree with uprisal, ideas unbound is pure hotness in this deck, sorry Steve for not thinking of it before.

Weakness:

what if you draw only draw spells and no combo parts

choke=gg

[Whatever Works]

Is it just me or does this deck seem worse than TPS in almost every way? You are trying to accomplish the same and this deck just doesn't seem broken like TPS can be.

Well ya... I played the deck as a joke 1 time, and I dont know how i won accept for possible suprise factor... Chalice for 1 huts this deck more then belcher... and it takes ALOT to say that...

[SycoMage]

I am replacing the words of wisdom with Ideas Unvound....So much power! What if the SB was geared towards artifacts. I have rebuild now... Am strongly considering Hurkyl's Recall, as well. If I can stop chalice I will win. How bout chain of vapor ove Snap?????? It is a non-land permanent not only a creature. And the second ability does not hurt me for I have no permanents other than land.

[The Chosen One]

How bout chain of vapor ove Snap????

Didnt I say this like a week ago? :lol:

[SycoMage]

@Bruenor   BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!
Any ways.... No ideas unbound. Sorcery speed draw make baby Jesus cry... 
Considering running some hard counter. i.e. Counterspell. Mana Drain will not be good in this deck. Would it be wrong to run some Seat of the Synod+Tinker+DSC???? That would make it easier to put in sapphire, crypt and lotus..But what do you take out? Do you even consider running it?

[Mark_Story]

Have the thawing glaciers been dropped because they are too slow?  I haven't been keeping up with solidarity in legacy but I thought one of the strengths of glacier was its ability to get multiple lands with the deck's untap effects?  Or is coming into play make them too slow. 

Also a deck with so much blue mana really should be using mind's desire, and or time spiral.  Timespiral for the huge untap effect that goes broken with high tide, and both because they draw a lot of cards.  Furthermore, they just seem too broken not to be played. I know that being sorceries they don't work well with reset.  But I think they're strong enough to warrant inclusion.  Furthermore, the combined effect of time spiral is stronger than a single reset, I would think at least.

[TheUprisal]

Reset is crap.  Ive played it for 6 months in Legacy, and its terrible there.

I played it for 2 weeks in Vintage and its even worse.  Sorcery speed absolute stupidity (Spiral, Will, Demonic, Ideas, Halls, MoM) 

Creates more consistency and brokenness.  It makes Reset an inferior Twiddle/Grip (as aforementioned)

Reset...BLAH!

One of the few decks thats just better Sorcery than Instant...the cards just win more consistently.

[And11]

I played high tide in T1 last year to an undefeated swiss record and a top 4... And it also won a tournement in denmark semi recently. Here is a list for reference... Primarily because I think the lists posted are just way to slow and not very broken in any aspect...

Yes, I used a list close to your build and was able to split a Mox. I liked the build a lot, but never sleeved it up after the tournament until recently. The Gifts seemed too mana hungry and I included 4x Merchant Scroll insted. It's a very powerful tutor in this deck; it gets Ancestral, High Tide, Frantic Search, Gush, Mystical Tutor or Brain Freeze, when you're about to kill. The sideboard haven't been though of yet, but Xantids are obvious hotness. Same goes to an assorted mix of bouncers for junk like Lab, Pillars and Stax components.

TPS is an unstable combodeck, whose only 100% kills come from Bargain, Necro, Desire and Will. Draw7s are hardly any good in there, because you are likely to fizzle out and draw a bunch of your mana and disruption. This decklist plays through disruption without the "help" of Duress. Fetching out a swamp or even an Underground Sea is just plain aweful. I'd much rather have a fool proof mana base, than playing with protection/disruption cards like to Duress that make my draw7s shitty. I guess Merchant Scroll -> FoW makes up for the lack of Duress vs. fast combo.

The Solidarity list from Legacy CANNOT be tweaked to work in a powered Vintage metagame. You need moxen and broken black and green spells to make High Tide a serious contender! My list for reference:

Mana: 28
9x artifacts (no Vault)
5x fetch
5x Island
2x Tropical
2x U.Sea
1x Academy
4x High all the Tide

Kill: 2
1x Tendrils
1x Freeeeeeze!

Pro: 6
4x FoW
2x Rebuild

Draw/Search: 17
4x Brainstorm
4x M.Scroll
1x Ancestral
1x Gush
1x F.Search
1x Tinker
1x Regrowth
1x C.Rotation
1x Mystical
1x Vampiric
1x Demonic

Bombs: 7
1x Fastbond
1x Twistah
1x Spiral
1x Will
1x Walk
1x Desire
1x Jar

It might no be optimal, but is sure is more playable than a modified legacy decklist. I should have double checked the list, as I just typed it in with little consideration. Anyways, look at the list and tell me what you think (especially Whatever Works, the creator of the deck ).

Later,
/Andreas.dk

[And11]

Okay, I screwed up - sorry!

[Nazdakka]

Have the thawing glaciers been dropped because they are too slow?  I haven't been keeping up with solidarity in legacy but I thought one of the strengths of glacier was its ability to get multiple lands with the deck's untap effects?  Or is coming into play make them too slow.

Pretty much, yeah. The Thaws are great when you've got time to set up with 5 or more lands, but they're a pain in the ass if you have to go for turn 3-4 kills. They also get Wastelanded all the time, which sucks because it gives Goblins another turn to kill you in.

The Solidarity list from Legacy CANNOT be tweaked to work in a powered Vintage metagame. You need moxen and broken black and green spells to make High Tide a serious contender!

Exactly correct. Reset Tide is really quite good in Legacy, although the meta isn't right at the moment for it, but it sucks in Vintage because it can't abuse Moxen or powerful sorcery-speed effects like Time Spiral, Fastbond, Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will. I think Whatever Works and And11 are persuing a more productive line of testing.

[pyr0ma5ta]

This deck just seems strictly worse than TPS because it depends on lands to go off, hence, you can't go off until turn 3 or 4 without a fastbond.  TPS can randomly double ritual into a jar and win on the spot.  And it can also run other broken fun stuff like Necro and Bargain.  High Tide just is too weak for Vintage, doesn't run enough borken cards, and is too slow. 

[Whatever Works]

This deck just seems strictly worse than TPS because it depends on lands to go off, hence, you can't go off until turn 3 or 4 without a fastbond.  TPS can randomly double ritual into a jar and win on the spot.  And it can also run other broken fun stuff like Necro and Bargain.  High Tide just is too weak for Vintage, doesn't run enough borken cards, and is too slow. 

Thats kinda why nobody plays the deck anymore including even me... However, the deck is a shitload to fun if you ever try it...

[merfolkOTPT]

Sorry to necro the old thread and everything, but seeing the power of this deck in legacy, basically negating control in the format makes me think this deck could do something in Vintage.  Basically, people kept talking about you win so much more quickly with these other combo decks, but the amazing power of solidarity in legacy seemingly is it's ability to go off with the loss on the stack, and i would think especially against storm combo, when your opponent has the win on the stack you would probably have a starting out storm of at the lowest 9 and if that is the case then you should be able to win in reponse fairly easily.  Maybe i am crazy but it seems worth a shot to me.

[Whatever Works]

Honestly, I dont think it can win anymore. There are just better options then high tide. The deck requires land to be in play, and relies 100% on fastbond. The solidarity version works in legacy because the decks have more time to play lands, and wait till the turn before death to combo out. That doesnt work when your going to die the very next turn. Also type 1 has a much faster clock.

If solidarity cant keep up with goblins in legacy... How can it keep up with grimlong in type 1?