Proxies: Yet another re-evaluation of a touchy subject

[Wolven]

Well locally we've been playing 13-proxy vintage for some time. It started out with the theory that you can proxy up full power and a set of something else (normally Drain, shop, etc.) We've had a lot of scess with that number. It may seem awkward at a glance but it really isn't. As a matter of fact, I believe it was chosen by a note made by Steve about 2 years ago.

With today's Twister-less lists it means you have a slot remaining for something random. Whether it be, a simple hard to find uncommon/rare, or obscure peice of tech, it's a bonus and helps in sideboarding. (If I remember right when U/G madness was played, a few of the players had to proxie Stuptifying Touch)

I'm all for proxie events, I'm power-less (have my drains and duals) but I refuse to play neutered decks. If I wanna play a normal format, I'll play standard or extended.

[dicemanx]

As for the peeled foils, it's a great idea, but people just don't know how to do it or don't have access to a printer that's capable of doing such.  I know I don't, even though I know how to do the procedure.

Don't know how to do it? Tough, learn. Otherwise, you can shell out big bucks to play what you want. People are just way too lazy when it comes to simple tasks - they expect everything on a silver platter. The printer "issue" is not an issue at all. Any printer will do. You don't need to use high quality laser printers if all you have access to is a dot matrix printer.

(btw the "you" isn't you buttons, is its the people interested in playing T1 but too lazy to spend 2-3 hours making good quality proxies.)

The proxy count should stay at 10, with an additional cost count going up to 15 -

And no TO in their right mind for a major tournament would EVER go above that.

10 was arbitrary to begin with, so I don't understand why you're so firm on this. Maybe at this point to ensure that your high end cards' value doesn't plummet the proxy count needs to go up to 15.

[cssamerican]

I live in area that has no Vintage tournament scene whatsoever. I own very few cards because if I bought cards I would only be buying them as an investment, which is something I am not intrested in doing. So, I do all my playing on MWS, which probably gives me a much different perspective than most people here on this subject.

Do you want to play magic, or own magic cards?

To me this is what the whole argument seems to revolve around. I am on the side playing the game obviously; however, I am also in favor of keeping WotC in business if at all possible since they are the ones that keep the game evolving. It is this reason why I would never advocate unlimited proxies for live tournament play; however, I could see setting up some type of rotation. For example, if a card is extended legal then you aren't allowed to proxy it, or something to that effect. This keeps the proxy curve to a point were it is easier for other players to join the Vintage community without making the source of the game or the vendors of the game lose their revenue. Since it requires all players including Vintage players to buy new cards when they are released, which is somehing that doesn't necessarily happen with a fixed number of proxies. I am not sure how this would effect collectors, but if other collectables are any indication I doubt it was have as large an impact as many seem to think. Let's face it you can't play with baseball cards, football cards, or coins and it isn't hurting their value because the value of a collectable is usally tied to its rareness. And if the game/formats popularity grew I would imagine the demand for the collectable cards would grow with it.

I agree with this IN PRINCIPLE, but only if people were allowed to print something out and put it in the front of the sleeve.  Trying to read people's handwriting and recognizing/reading the board full of 15 plains with shit scribbled on it is at best highly annoying and at worst impossible to keep track of the game state without constantly looking over at a board full of cards that you can't read, because their handwriting is chicken scratch.  Forget about it if it's a card with more than 4 lines of text (and then they've got the oracle text printed out separately off to the side, even more annoying/disruptive).

I cannot stand not picking up the card and seeing the proper picture (how many players recognize cards) and text.  As someone who owns full power, I fully recognize the need of proxies to keep our format alive and have a reasonable barrier to entry (as well as the positive effect that has on the value of my own power), but if 1/4 of someone's deck is a scribbled mess, that's not fun to play against...

We do this (small printed text/graphics in the sleeve) for virtual cards for SW:CCG and have never had a problem with marked cards or cheating..

Bill

Edit - the problem with CE is that while the cards don't look different, they certainly feel different and you can feel the difference shuffling.

Isn't there a commonly known process in which you can erase a land card's face and reprint on top of the blank face. If so couldn't someone like SCG or TMD (I guess they are kind of the same now) set-up a simple template in which you type the oracle text of the card and it prints an easy to read and decent looking proxy on a real Magic card?

[jpmeyer]

Trying to read people's handwriting and recognizing/reading the board full of 15 plains with shit scribbled on it is at best highly annoying and at worst impossible to keep track of the game state without constantly looking over at a board full of cards that you can't read, because their handwriting is chicken scratch.

I might as well repeat again something that I have suggested on such threads before:

Increase the proxy count past 10, but only allow proxies which consist of peeled foils with the cardface printed directly on the peeled card. The proxy doesn't have to look amazing or anything, and the print can be black/white. So long as the card is easily recognizable, then the proxy is acceptable. If a player cannot afford to buy the proxied cards, at least he has to *work* a little to play his deck. If players don't know how to create such proxies, we can provide protocols on web sites such as this one or via word of mouth.

I also feel that its a little to hasty to dismiss higher proxy counts because of the fear that it will lower the value of the more expensive cards (and possibly harm the dealers/TOs in the process). As of now, I see newer players purchase high dollar cards, even though they can get by with proxying them. Such is the appeal of T1 - it goes beyond just playing the game. Furthermore, card values are linked to attendance and popularity of T1 events. If we increase both through increasing the proxy count, then card values should not diminish.

In tournies where you are allowed to make proxies (rather than just writing on a basic land), my two personal favorite ways to make proxies are to print out R&D-style "cards" or to print out black and white versions of the cardface.  That way, you have cards which look distinctly like proxies but are also very readable.

[Vegeta2711]

If you can't build a competitive deck with 10 proxies, 5 more aren't going to help you.

It's not just the fact of building a competitive deck, but a deck that you want to play.

This is completely wrong. When did someone say it's your right to be able to play any deck you want in this format at a heavily heavily reduced cost?

Oh and thanks for making my point for me. If you're too cheap to buy 1-2 cards that actually cost a -lot- of money, stick with Oath, Belcher, Fish and Dragon (3 Moxen, Lotus, AR, TW, 4 Bazaar = 10 btw and that's all you -need-). You buy two Drains you can play Gifts and CS as well. That's the majority of competitve decks right there.

And you want to play the most expensive deck in the format while spending as little money as possible? Tough.

Using an example from this year, when Ichroid.dec came out with 2-3 weeks left in the Extended season, you had a choice. Dump down the cash and pick up the deck's rares ASAP or stick with what you had. Many people chose the latter. The ones that chose the former ended up with the best deck from the format. But at no time did the people get some magical choice to not spend money or make a sacrifice to switch decks.

[Anusien]

Re: Peeled Foils
Anywhere I can get some directions for that?  I've got the process down for peeling the foils, but I haven't figured out how to print on the card first.

I'm in favor of more proxies, but I'm wary of them going above a certain limit.  I think most everyone has agreed for 15 as an absolute ceiling.  Before I get into that, a few things:
Any price delineation is arbitrary.  If you say, only cards over $100, who sets the price guide?  What if Drains drop to $99 right before a tournament?  Where is the cut-off?  That's a ridiculously bad way to do things, and will be hell on judges who have to do deck checks.
Avoid arbitrary numbers of proxies.  You could allow, say, 23 proxies.  That number is abitrary and worthless.  For the most part, so is 10 and 15.  10 proxies is the power 9 plus one more card, or the usable power 8 + 2 Drains/Shops.  So you still need to shell out $250 or more.  Everyone says that the point of proxies is to reduce the entry barrier to the format.  Where is that barrier?  The cost of an average Extended deck?  Is that the price of UG Desire (which is about $100) or the price of Dredge Tog (considerably more)?  Doesn't it make sense to say 13 proxies (power 9 plus 1 set of $100 cards) or to provide a list of proxies.  Doesn't it make more sense to say you can proxy the Power 9, Shops, Drains, Library, Bazaars and that you're on your own for the rest?  Isn't that what proxies are trying to do anyway?  Hell, it wouldn't be that hard to PRINT realistic proxies with a "PROXY" stamp on the front and back, and make those the only valid things you could use as your proxies, which solves the sharpied Plains problem.

[nataz]

Re: Peeled Foils
Anywhere I can get some directions for that? I've got the process down for peeling the foils, but I haven't figured out how to print on the card first.

I've known about this for a while, but had never done it before. In the past 15 mins I have been able to proxy basicly the full power nine. Overall, they look pretty nice, considering I was almost out of ink before I started

You need
-something with an edge (I used a fork, then for later ones a ruler then disection tweezers
-a normal color printer
-tape
-new foil card
-an image + photoshop or anything that will let you resize


peel off foil.
tape card to paper
resize image in Photoshop, set to print on corner of page
print

done

It was easy for me, cause I had those really good prxy files that were put up a while ago.

[dicemanx]

There you go. If you know how to tie your shoelaces or how to take public transportation to a magic event (or drive there yourself even), you can also learn how to make good proxies.

(however, if you have velcro on any part of your shoe and/or your mom drops you off at a magic event, then we might have some issues).

[Sagath]

Question: Rearrange the following to make a complete sentence;  Horse. A. Dead. Beating.

Answer: If IQ >= 3, I'm sure you figured it out.

The format is doing fine @10 proxies, if TO's feel they can pull more people in with >10 let THEM decide.

Its not that complicated people, quit making it out to be so.

[dicemanx]

Granted, but TOs don't necessarily know how to increase attendance, or what the ideal number of proxies are. The onus is just as much on the players to discuss and figure these things out, because its their format, their expensive cards, and their enjoyment on the line.

[Smmenen]

When I run tournaments in Columbus, I do unlimited Proxy.  No one has ever complained about it.  And few people, if anyone, has abused the system by acutally playing an all proxy deck. 

[Komatteru]

When I run tournaments in Columbus, I do unlimited Proxy.  No one has ever complained about it.  And few people, if anyone, has abused the system by acutally playing an all proxy deck. 

Michael Simister did it once.

[Smmenen]

He had all nicely printed picture proxies and no one cared.  He played a really cool deck. 

I honestly prefer unlimited proxies so long as I can identify the card easily.  I am not that irritated with word proxies because I test alot under all kinds of circumstances.

I enjoy vintage and as such I think it is healthiest for Vintage to have as few barriers to entry as possible.  It is already the hardest format to pilot a deck in.  And legacy coexists with this format.

Do you want vigorous competition, or you do want few tournaments with opponents with terrible decks? 

Bottom line: there is no GOOD reason to oppose proxies.  Proxies have a huge positive impact on the game and the playing of the game.  The only drawback with proxies is non-game related: price of the cards, collectibility, etc. 

[goobafish]

Bottom line: there is no GOOD reason to oppose proxies.  Proxies have a huge positive impact on the game and the playing of the game.  The only drawback with proxies is non-game related: price of the cards, collectibility, etc.

Unfortunately collectibility and price are game related. Maybe they are not playing related but they are for sure related to the game of Magic. I sometimes see proxy tournaments as allowing people to play with fakes, which is totally against WOTC rules, even through they are unsanctioned. My theory is that the game of magic consists of two sectors, the economic sector and the playing sector which coexist. These sectors are directly related (i.e. how much a card is played affects its price). The devaluing of power cards and larger type one cards are causing the power market to fall into a recesion with moxes 50-150$ cheaper than only a few months ago. This recesion is fine, but it is only fine if the market gets out of this recession state fairly soon, and the only way to force power prices back to thier price six months ago is for people to start and to continue to buy power, the more money is spent and the more it is circulated the higher the price goes. I do realize however that some people do not care about the value of thier power so long as they can play the game with thier real cards. This is totally understandable. There are some who have posted previously stating that "if you invested in cardboard you made a bad decision". I have a feeling that most of these people (me included) bought there power upon entrance into type 1 for the purpose of playing with it, aswell as expecting it to retain, if not gain value. With the introduction of proxies (and partially due to legacy popularity) people have been less interested in power because why buy it when you can just write it's name on a basic land? I do however agree that vintage does need to gain in popularity and increase its playerbase. My best suggestion is that smaller tournamants (local) can be proxy events to kindle interest and the larger tournaments be non-proxy to have the people who are interested in vintage be able to put some of thier money into the game and the market as many of us have before proxies.
Just my 2 cents...

p.s. This is not comming from someone with a full set of power, however i do have a few pieces.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Bottom line: there is no GOOD reason to oppose proxies.  Proxies have a huge positive impact on the game and the playing of the game.  The only drawback with proxies is non-game related: price of the cards, collectibility, etc. 

I have to agree.  I personally prefer to own as many of the cards in my deck as possible but I am not opposed to unlimited proxy events, either.  I have a playset of drains but no power, and my local events are 10 proxy.  I don't think that more proxies would necessarily devalue cards; although there is a financial barrier I still desire to own my own power despite being able to proxy it, but maybe that's just me. 

Giving everyone the opportunity to play any deck they want would make for an interesting environment and also allow for experimentation.  Obviously you can playest with proxies or play on mws or w/e, but I think that many players are restricted to particular archtypes that they choose to invest in when it comes down to tournement settings, and it would be interesting to remove this.  I'm not saying that all or most t1 events should be unlimited proxy; I remember when 5 was the standard and that was IMO too low, while now with 10 being pretty much the standard it is a huge improvement as fully powered decks are generally within more or less easy reach.  I do think that 15 would be as even better standard, though, and that it would be cool to see more unlimited proxy events like Steve's.

Edit: Although prices of magic cards are of course related to demand and playability allowing more proxies is obviously not the same as reprinting the cards... even though the value may fluctuate the cards will still maintain or increase in rarity with regards to collecting purposes.

[the19inchgecko]

I know I am new to the formet and this board, but I feel that proxies are a bad idea.  When I first started Vintage, and by vintage I mean a bad meta in Nebraska where only one guy had power and only had a 3 pieces.  I played a shared fate deck that did well in that meta, but as I slowed increased my collection to include some high end cards I am now able to consider playing competitive vintage.  If I knew and wanted to use proxies then I would not put getting a mox as a priority and just write Jet on a forest.  Proxies are only good testing or for using in casual play so you don't have an accident and bend or spill coke on your mox.  I would rather see more sanctioned Vintage events.  I would even pay more for that ability. 

[Disburden]

I am really confused about the constant debating over proxies in Vintage. To me, it is really a simple manner of common sense.

The more proxies allowed in any given tournament means more high quality decklists inside of that tournament. I would have zero problems with playing in an unlimited proxy environment, I would still buy power/workhops/Bazaars (which I am still doing to this day despite owning some already). The fact that I could peel foils, or write with a sharpy on a basic land would never convince me to stop collecting the card game. Even if I could sleeve up an entire "fake deck",  I wouldn't.

The fact that you would be able to get through a tournament not having to battle through handfulls of garbage decks, played by Vintage infants that don't own power, would be enhancing to the format in general. I personally would like to face more decks like Stax, Gifts, Slaver, and Oath (packed with power) than play against mono-W weenie played by someone that thinks power 9 is a myth and doesn't know what Time Walk does.

To me, the more people getting to play with power in a highly skilled competition will also innovate the format more regularly. Being "Adept" at Vintage thru being experienced with powered decks would lead to more players trying to innovate and make more decks, instead of playing Sligh with Lotus Petal. I feel this is why player teams, such as meandeck and Shortbus, are the reasons we see innovation majority of the time. Because they play competitive Vintage regularly, WITH powered decks they have more experience in the format to innovate Tier 1 masterpieces. I would like to see more creation in the format right now. To me, proxies help this.

[Moxlotus]

It's not just the fact of building a competitive deck, but a deck that you want to play.
 

I want to play Gifts in Extended, but I have almost none of the cards.  Tough shit for me, I get to play something that I have the cards for.  I have the choice to shell out the 300+ bucks or not for the deck.

In vintage, 10 free proxies means you can take that 300 bucks and fill out the other 2 or 3 Drain/MWS like cards you don't have. 

I like 10 proxies + $1/extra with no cap.  Powered players can fill out the extra few cards they need.  Newer players can get almost everything they need free, and if they really want to play that Uba Stax deck then they can shell out a few Washingtons extra.

[Jacob Orlove]

The best system would be one where some tournaments allow a lot of proxies, getting people involved and interested, while other tournaments allowed few/no proxies, which both provides incentive to actually get the cards, and a reward to the people who have them.

[Juggernaut GO]

Having proxy tournaments is one of the main reasons that you can't take any results from europe/italy/france/gencon/origins seriously because of the fact that most people you face are not playing a competitive deck.  You can take the best player in the world and give him mono red burn with jackal pups, and he will still have a hard time putting up results. 

Of course, there are always exceptions to this.  Look at a few of the past waterbury top 16, I know mono red sligh made top 16 and RG beats made top 16 at the last one.  I remember the same things were discussed when that full set of beta power was up for grabs in france, the entire tournament was full of scrub decks, and dragon won. 

Proxies in vintage promote better competition.  Better competition promotes better play, and better play promotes a better metagame.  I have always been for at least 10 proxies, but I am one of the people that will never buy another piece of power strictly for the reason that I can own 2 pieces, and proxy 10 and play any deck in the format in any tournament that actually counts for something.

[Komatteru]

I have always been for at least 10 proxies, but I am one of the people that will never buy another piece of power strictly for the reason that I can own 2 pieces, and proxy 10 and play any deck in the format in any tournament that actually counts for something.

I think that's completely fair as well.  You've made an investment in the format, which balances everything out.  The point is not that every player needs to buy everything, but rather that it is not unreasonable to expect people to make a decent investment.

[UR]

To all the people who are afraid their power will decrease in value; TRY TO MAKE VINTAGE MORE POPULAR IN JAPAN. The Japanese are all crazy and willing topay big bucks for cards... pretty funny to see these guys go after foils the way they do. Maybe if you can get them to pay Vintage, the 'entry barrier' will double  .

The format is doing fine @10 proxies, if TO's feel they can pull more people in with >10 let THEM decide.

It wouldn't hurt TO's to listen to the consumers every once in a while. Open communication is a good thing. I'm still against raising the proxy limit beyond 10 but if a large majority is in favor it would be nice to have that information if you are a TO.

Can I ask the people who want more proxies if they play any other formats? If so, which ones and how the heck to you get by in those formats if you aren't allowed to proxy and you aren't willing/able to buy the cards you need?!? I'm currently playing CAL in extended and the bloody deck would cost well over $200 even if I played it non-foil. Raffinity, Tog and even Boros aren't much cheaper. T2 has about the same price and don't even get me started on Legacy. If I could play with 10 proxies, I wouldn't have to buy the friggin' Shockduals and it would save me a LOT of money and yet the DCI tells me to put my proxies up my nose...

[Machinus]

Can I ask the people who want more proxies if they play any other formats? If so, which ones and how the heck to you get by in those formats if you aren't allowed to proxy and you aren't willing/able to buy the cards you need?!? I'm currently playing CAL in extended and the bloody deck would cost well over $200 even if I played it non-foil. Raffinity, Tog and even Boros aren't much cheaper. T2 has about the same price and don't even get me started on Legacy. If I could play with 10 proxies, I wouldn't have to buy the friggin' Shockduals and it would save me a LOT of money and yet the DCI tells me to put my proxies up my nose...

I play extended and legacy. Those formats aren't cheap. I support proxies because I want a more open community than those formats. I don't want to have a format based on a CCG business model. I want a format where people can learn and play without having an enormous financial obstacle.

Aside from my personal ideology for the format, the truth is just that Vintage isn't an important format to WotC. They don't care if anyone plays Vintage, and therefore they don't support it at all. The other formats you mentioned can get away with price barriers because they are GPs and PTQs and thousands of dollars in prizes (and hundreds of thousand of players). Vintage doesn't have those good things, and therefore it can't afford the more difficult route to entry that it would possess without proxies. Proxies make Type 1 as accessible as other supported formats, which is ultimately good for the community in every way.

[UR]

and therefore they don't support it at all.

Not entirely true. I know for a fact that Wizards of the Coast sponsored the Dutch Open Vintage by providing some of the prizes (I believe it was a Mox Jet among other things). I know Vintage doesn't have any priority though...

[Dozer]

I personally would like to face more decks like Stax, Gifts, Slaver, and Oath (packed with power) than play against mono-W weenie played by someone that thinks power 9 is a myth and doesn't know what Time Walk does.

Having proxy tournaments is one of the main reasons that you can't take any results from europe/italy/france/gencon/origins seriously because of the fact that most people you face are not playing a competitive deck.

What is a "competitive deck"? Does every single tournament have to consist of Slaver, Gifts and Stax? I like my randomness, thank you! I know for a fact that it would be easier to play through an event with a predictable metagame. This way, I am forced to adjust for the different metagame. People turn up with weird Fish builds, Sligh, Sui, T2 Affinity and Mono-Red burn, and they win matches against full powered decks with this. Be prepared or be prepared to lose.

Granted, the powered decks finish higher overall. An example: the last Vintage in Berlin on Dec 3rd. 22 people attended, 7 of them powered. The powered decks placed 1st-3rd, 8th, 9th, 11th and 18th. Since both the top placed powered and the top placed unpowered players receive prices, why should the tournament go to proxies? Remember, this way we get a meaningful Vintage rating, too, and people DO care about that here.

As for the question of proxying 10$-Rares or hard to find OOP commons: I maintain that card accessability is a major part of this game. I want this to be part of the preparation, being forced to make do with what you have or what you can find. If all else fails, the online stores are well stocked, down to Homelands Commons. If you can't find that Maze of Ith, then either trade for it, borrow it or just buy it! I have no problem at all with tournaments and matches that are decided through card availability. The only exception for me is the really expensive stuff: P9, Drains, Bazaar, Shops, LoA. You have to get lucky or have a well-paid job to afford these. 10-15 Euros is in range for almost every Magic player, 100-300+ is not.

That's why I accept proxies for Mana Drains, but not for Stormscape Apprentices. The access barrier people rightfully complain about is not created by the Mazes of Ith, and not the Duals either (although this is certainly debatable). It is the Mana Drains and up that make this format hard to play. I have to date played exactly one proxy tournament, in Melbourne. And even there I bought the Masticores I needed instead of having them as the only two proxies in my deck. Sure, the player with the most money should not be the one who always wins. But the player who was able to get all the cards he needed should be at an advantage over the one who didn't -- that's how TCG's work.

I see both sides of the argument. I use proxies for playtesting myself a lot. But at tournaments, I appreciate sanctioning and rating much more than I appreciate proxies. There's always a solution to make tournaments attractive for unpowered players.

------

After having written this far, I realize that the major argument for proxies seems to be the "competitive environment" they create. Every time someone writes this, I get the feeling that they want to say that "competitive environments" are better to play in. This is something I don't understand. A "competitive environment" is the one that you find at the competition, nothing more. You cannot look at the decks present and say "that wasn't competitive".

The major part of a tournament experience is to adjust your deck and/ or your deckchoice to the environment that you expect. In a sanctioned tournament, you are bound to run into all kinds of decks. You have to be prepared for almost anything. That makes good preparation more difficult, but also more challenging. You have to factor in what decks unpowered players will bring, you have to guess how many powered decks will be there and you have to be able to beat Suicide and Sligh with your deck. That's not a bad thing. It's different from preparing for an event like SCG, but it takes a similar amount of time and skill. You should win the majority of matches against unpowered decks, but that is in no way guaranteed.

Everyone who gets angry when he gets beaten by a "random deck" that he "normally can't lose to" has not understood that Magic is a game of probabilities. And there is a probability that '98 Sligh smashes your face in. I don't mind smashing WW players. Sometimes I feel bad for them, but then again they came to a tournament. Just like I expect to face randomness, they should expect to face power. If you can't handle that (either way), don't play this game in tournaments -- or prepare more carefully next time.

Note that this preparation makes decks and especially sideboards look "random" themselves in the critical eyes of TMD. But if you can explain why you metagamed like that, everything is good. Sometimes, the best deck is one that has CoP: Red in its sideboard.

------

People have said before that non-proxy environments are skewed. From my point of view, it is proxy environments that are skewed, as in: not reflecting the game of Magic as it exists in the physical cards. Some cards are unaffordable, like Mana Drain and upwards. Proxy those, but I don't see a solid reason for more than that. (Especially since I just don't like "budget proxies".)

Dozer

/edit:

The best system would be one where some tournaments allow a lot of proxies, getting people involved and interested, while other tournaments allowed few/no proxies, which both provides incentive to actually get the cards, and a reward to the people who have them.

I think we have a system like that already, as I detailed in this post (self-promoting necromancy ftw!). The incentive to buy cards is going up in the tournament structure. D.

[dexter]

The only reason i see for going over 10 proxies is to make WotC understand that there is a problem with a format were people have to print paper copies to be able to play on a competative level. I rather see some kinda reprint on the more expensive cards. (yes I do think that this can be done without sinking the price on old school alfa / beta / unl power, but thats for another thread)

In GBG we have one Proxy10 tourney every weekend and I have never had a problem playing any specifik deck that I felt I wanted to try out so. But on the other hand I know alot of people with ALOT of spare cards and deck for me to borrow and just fill up the missing slots with proxies so. But I have never heard anyone complaining about 10 proxies being to little either. And we have quite a few players who has access to a more limited cardpool than I do so.

I saw some suggestion on unlimted amount of proxies somewhere in the thread. Why not just start playing Workstation / apprentice instead?

[mr_rogers]

I think that's completely fair as well.  You've made an investment in the format, which balances everything out.  The point is not that every player needs to buy everything, but rather that it is not unreasonable to expect people to make a decent investment.

To make a huge investment in T1 all a person has to do is buy the dual lands.  That alone will cost more than most pieces of power and they still can't build a deck from them.  So what is a decent investment to you?  $700+? 


I don't think people fully understand how expensive Vintage is to play in compared to other formats.  If I wanted to make a tier one or even tier two deck in Standard the most expensive rare I'd have to buy might be $25.  If I wanted to even make FCG in Vintage with no proxies the highest rare I'd have to purchase would be about $650-$900(black Lotus).  So to play T1 with no proxies you better be really rich, have had the cards since before 2000 or whenever they jumped up to the current prices or be really connected so you can borrow the cards.  Also let us not forget that as more players get in the game the power will be sucked up.  There is only so much power 9 so eventually you will run out and people will have to use proxies or they can never play T1. 

 

[defector]

My two cents go in Steve's piggy bank. Unlimited proxies and make them clear, maybe even pretty. I own 8/9+Drains+Shops, doesn't phase me to play against an all proxy deck. I do, or at least did, all the time for testing before I lost my mind and moved to Russia. This debate could kill the format and re-inforce the elitism that we are so often accused of.
let it roll
defector

[unknown.root]

I've been against proxies as long as i've played magic, they should only be used for testing decks, not in tournaments. Back then before i owned power or drains i would build the best deck i could and try to make it work. i've spent thousands of dollars to build my decks because i wanted to play them. as far as i see it my 7 pieces of power, drains, workshops, are an investment to PLAY this wonderful game.  however i understand the fomat could die w/o proxies, at our shop we run 10 proxy tournaments because thats the only way to draw in any players. there is a line that needs to be drawn at what can be proxied. black lotus, yeah, mana drain, yeah, mana crypt, yes, dual lands, most likely no, force of will, no & and smaller cards like oath of druids nope. maybe if we did rares from unlimited and up. rares from legends, and up. there is plenty of dual lands from revised floating around so i don't think they should be included.

if i had my way i'd say events like starcity should have two tournaments at the same time one for proxies and one without.
you guys can flame me all you want, but i believe this card game should be about playing the real cards.

[Tha Gunslinga]

if i had my way i'd say events like starcity should have two tournaments at the same time one for proxies and one without.

And they'd get 100+ people for the proxy one, and like 15 for the no-proxy.  Yeah, that would work out real well.

I don't like the idea of unlimited proxies, but I have no trouble with at least 15-25.  And yes, I do own all my own shit.  However, most of my teammates do not, and our team would have like 3 people on it if we couldn't proxy.  Vintage would be just as DEAD as it was 5 years ago if we couldn't proxy.

Proxies are like abortions: if you don't like them, DON'T HAVE ONE.