Help with a Mono Black Tendrils deck

[profoundd]

After a rather interesting evolution from the 9th edition black pre-con, to a necratog/Nantuko Husk based black weenie, my roomate started to move towards a type 1 Tendrils Deck.

Our current deck is very focused on the win now, who cares what my opponent does mindset.

We are powerless, and play in a fairly unpowered enviroment, and have no clue about the meta as the first local turny we're going to make it to is this weekend.

We're currently seeking some general advice/ideas on how to take this. We know it won't be as strong as TPS or Meandeck Tendrils but it can still pull a turn 1 win/amazing swing recovery to go off.

Here is the list we are currnetly working with (The death wishes are the newest addition, not sure if they'll stick around or not)




Mana
1 chrome mox
1 mox dimond
1 lotus pettle
1 lions eye dimond
11 swamp

Mana Accl. (Yeah, kobolds are mana.. no.. really)

4 crookshank kobolds
4 crimson kobolds
4 culling the weak
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual


Draw
4 cruel bargins,
3 infernal contracts
3 night's whispers
1 yawgmoth's will
1 yawgmoths bargin

Tutor
3 Death wish
1 vampiric tutor
1 demonic tutor
1 demonic consoltation

Disruption
4 duress

Win
3 tendrils of agony



SB:
3 defence grid
3 unmask
4 cabal therapy
2 tormod's crypt
1 tendrils of agony
1 cranial extraction
1 vendetta



Yes, the sideboard is complete trash. The vendetta is there for Meddling Mage, the rest is geared towards an unpowered oath deck.


So, we're just after some advice/ideas direction to take this. We're pondering picking up land grants/fetches/bayous to try to make it a bit more self thinning.

Thanks

[TheUprisal]

MMM, mono black tendrils...I like it.

Glaring hole #1 - wheres the Necropotence?

Duress is good.  Cabal Therapy is very unnecessary.  Unmask is good because it's free .


I would...
-1 Death Wish
+1 Necropotence

Ancient Craving/Ambition's Cost, maybe?

Also, you want the 4th Night's Whisper.  It's too good for only 3.

I'm not liking the Kobolds, sadly...I know they provide mass mana w/ Culling the Weak...but it seems just too situational.

-4 Crookshank, +4 land grant
-4 Crimson, +1 fastbond
+1 crop rotation

...2 more slots....hmm...
+1 Night Whisper
+1 Swamp

and of course -4 Swamp +4 Bayou


...It's reckless already, but now it could be dangerous. 



EDIT: CULLING THE WEAK! haha forgot about it.  +4 Ambitions Cost

[profoundd]

MMM, mono black tendrils...I like it.

Glaring hole #1 - wheres the Necropotence?

It's been debated between us, and it seems kinda situtational, as you don't get the cards till next turn, unlike Y. bargin.
It's something we should really try tho..

Duress is good.  Cabal Therapy is very unnecessary.  Unmask is good because it's free .

Therapy + kobold = 3 for storm count, and a hurt hand acrost the table....

Ancient Craving/Ambition's Cost, maybe?

Feels slow/expensive for mana compaired to the BBB draw 4, pay 1/2 life cards.. But, soemthing to slot in and try.

Also, you want the 4th Night's Whisper.  It's too good for only 3.

I'm not liking the Kobolds, sadly...I know they provide mass mana w/ Culling the Weak...but it seems just too situational.

-4 Crookshank, +4 land grant
-4 Crimson, +1 fastbond
+1 crop rotation

...2 more slots....hmm...
+1 Night Whisper
+1 Swamp

and of course -4 Swamp +4 Bayou

Now, in defence of the cull/kobolds. It's really nice to jump up to 4 mana, and then pay 3 for the Contract/Cruel Bargin, with the one floating to power another cull/dark ritual into more sillyness.

I agree we should go back to 4 nights wispers, one was pulled to try the death wish.

Your changes would make it more consitant i belive, but I'm not sure it'll have the same snap it has right now.

Your mention of fastbond just made me smile, if we can get the duals for it, we'll run it.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Does Ill-Gotten Gains have a spot in this deck?  That deck is savage in Legacy, and this deck has almost all of the pieces...Resolving a Iggy is a mindtwist on your opponent, while adding 3 to your storm.  Speaking of which, Mindtwist?

Also, don't you want Sol Ring, Mana Vault, and Mana Crypt?  I understand the heavy black commitment of the deck, but they're restricted for a reason.  You also have plenty of rituals to get the black mana you need.

As long as we're thinking about black mana accelerators, Lake of the Dead might be a little-known option.  It's pretty good at accelerating you to a big storm turn, while building your thresh too.  Good luck with your unpowered storm deck...it'll be hot if it works

[Jank Golem]

I tried a deck similair to this before. Overeager apprentice and preist of gix can be helpful to up your storm count. Skullclamp seems like it could help the draw engine a lot too. You may need to add some ornithopters however so skullclamp can be used more. Maindecking the therapy's could help a lot too if you decide to go with the clamp engine. Anyway good luck.

[TheUprisal]

preist of gix can be helpful to up your storm count.

Totally forgot about this card.  He's very solid and is gorgeous in theory...but I'm wondering where he could fit.

[profoundd]

preist of gix can be helpful to up your storm count.

Totally forgot about this card.  He's very solid and is gorgeous in theory...but I'm wondering where he could fit.

I've tried him, he works better in theory than in practice.

He's amazing if you draw the a dark ritual and him at the same time, otherwise it can be hard to have the 3 mana to play him the first time. And he sucks large with Y. Will (doesn't trigger the 3 mana).

He could work if you have crypt/vault/sol ring going at the same time, but we're really aiming for turn 1/2 wins

[profoundd]

Does Ill-Gotten Gains have a spot in this deck?  That deck is savage in Legacy, and this deck has almost all of the pieces...Resolving a Iggy is a mindtwist on your opponent, while adding 3 to your storm.  Speaking of which, Mindtwist?

Also, don't you want Sol Ring, Mana Vault, and Mana Crypt?  I understand the heavy black commitment of the deck, but they're restricted for a reason.  You also have plenty of rituals to get the black mana you need.

Crypt will be added once we track one down, didn't think it'd work but it does.

Vault/Sol Ring tend to feel like they slow you down when you draw them, it's a werid feeling...

As long as we're thinking about black mana accelerators, Lake of the Dead might be a little-known option.  It's pretty good at accelerating you to a big storm turn, while building your thresh too.  Good luck with your unpowered storm deck...it'll be hot if it works

Lake can be a scarey drop, but it's a turn 3 play, and by then generaly we've won or lost.

It's an idea for SB, as they can't counter eveything in your hand on turn 3....

[or-line]

How did you end up finishing with this? I think when i was talking to you outside on the lunch break you were 1-2 with 1 round to go. I didn't get to see any of your matches except when you were playing mike for fun and i would have really liked to see how this deck plays.

After playing the deck and seeing what the meta is like what changes would you make for the next tournament? if you make it out that is

Also what do you think this decks best match up is?

[houseplant]

I ended up 1-3, filthy.

Other than the second round no one really beat me, I killed my self. too many times I would go all the way have a lot of mana left, played like 15 spells, but no tendrils in sight, and not enough life to draw anymore. one of the big problems with black draw is they all take life, so there is only so many times I can keep drawing. And a bunch of times I would demonic consultation and end up throwing away all of my tendrils while looking for will.

I think I have to take it a little slower and maybe not try and go off if I have some of the pieces, wait for all of them then go.

For the deck I ended up picking up a nercopotence and 4 fetch lands. I think that would definitely help stabilize the deck, thinning out the land and having a little backing to make a winning hand with the necro. Also maybe go back to 4 tendrils, so I can actually find it when I need it.

Since I have the shuffle from the fetch I might throw in some tops, not 100% on that but might work.

We are also looking for a mana crypt, and a mana vault. Mana crypt is going to set us back some though

For match ups the only thing I really see the deck has to face is control, then I have to try and work around forces and counter spells, against aggro decks and such, it doesn't really matter what they are doing since really the deck is based around going off before they can really do anything. Against some really aggro decks or burn decks, maybe do a smaller tendrils to stabilize more life before going off to finish them. But other than that I really only have to work around counters and control. Which is why there is more disruption in the sideboard. but I was also thinking maybe if I was going up against some creature deck to put some more draw or something in the side board to side out the duress’s, since in a lot of the matches yesterday they were just kinda useless, not really taking any threats, so I’d rather have cards to help me go off since I’m really not worrying about them stopping me.

I did notice yesterday though that most of my matches were I’d win, or I’d kill myself, really didn't matter what the opponent was doing at all.

The decklist at the moment is

Mana
1 mana crypt (proxy)
1 mana vault (proxy)
1 chrome mox
1 mox diamond
1 lotus petal
1 lion’s eye diamond
6 swamp
4 bloodstained mires

Mana Accl.

4 crookshank kobolds
4 crimson kobolds
4 culling the weak
4 dark rituals
4 cabal ritual


Draw
3 cruel bargains,
3 infernal contracts / pains rewards(works a lot better with mana crypt/vault in the deck)
4 night's whispers
1 yawgmoths bargain
1 necropotence

Tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 demonic tutor
1 demonic consultation

Disruption
4 duress

Win
4 tendrils of agony
1 yawgmoth's will


Not really sure at all about the side board.
SB:
3 defence grid
3 unmask
4 cabal therapy
2 tormod's crypt?
1 cranial extraction?
2 ?

I didn't end up sideboarding at all the entire day. The only guy I probably should have was 2nd round. But the first game I killed my self the 2nd turn, all I saw was he dropped a land. The fact it was a dual should have maybe make me think to sideboard, but still had no idea what he was playing.

All of the rest of the people I played were kids playing little creature decks, so really I didn't need anything. But then I would kill my self 2nd or 3rd turn. So yeah. Made me bitter. I didn't want to fight kids and little creature decks all day, I wanted to go against the actual type one decks that were there.

I think in the future I just have make it so it's more likely I can actually win when I go off and not just start going because I can. 

[or-line]

All of the rest of the people I played were kids playing little creature decks, so really I didn't need anything. But then I would kill my self 2nd or 3rd turn. So yeah. Made me bitter. I didn't want to fight kids and little creature decks all day, I wanted to go against the actual type one decks that were there.

This is the biggest problem playing in this meta.  Majority of it is bad aggro decks or modified Type 2 decks.  There is a group of people who show up with actual type 1 decks and you get lucky if you face 1 of them a tournament because of the small turn out.  If you live near there and you are looking for someone to test with let me know I am always looking for a good game and I need someone new to play with.

[spindrift]

Here is a mono-black Tendrils deck that came across from Karlsruhe 05.11.2005. It took 2nd place. Maybe you could get some ideas from this list. It looks really good!!

2. Tobias Egelhof
"Horden Tendrils"
Maindeck (60 cards):
   
Sideboard: (15 cards)
1 Black Lotus
4 Chromatic Sphere
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
4 Infernal Contract
1 Necropotence
4 Night's Whisper
4 Spoils of the Vault
2 Tainted Pact
4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will


Lands (8):
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Swamp

Side   
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Krosan Reclamation
4 Oath of Druids
4 Unmask
1 Woodripper

[Tobi]

Yes, I played a similar deck in a mono-black version and with a blue splash. Here are the reports for reference:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=25381.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=26019.0


Pain's Reward will not help you if you already have lost some life to draw. If you have problems getting black mana, use Chromatic Spheres. They are also helpful if you need to draw that card you just Vampiric'd for.

4 Tendrils is a must. You absolutely need to find them constantly, and its never bad to have 2 of them, since you can win with 4 spells and 2 Tendrils.

Sideboard suggestion:
- transformational Oath (need to remove Kobolds of course)
or:
- 4 Defense Grid, theses are needed against control and Fish
- 4 Unmask
- solution for Meddling Mage, True Believer and Platinum Angel (Snuff Out, Vendetta)
- you will not need reactive cards like Crypt and Extraction, you need cards to protect your combo!
- alternate kill (4 Negator! )

[Shikari]

Try this?

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

1 Demonic tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Spoils of the Vault
2 Spoils of the Vault
4 Infernal Contract
1 Echoeing Decay
1 Dark Blast

1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will

2 Tendril's of Agony

1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond
1 Jack-in-the-Mox
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
12 Swamps

[pyr0ma5ta]

Jack in the mox?

Nice.  Also, Echoing Decay and Darkblast?

You have Spoils of the Vault listed twice.

And, we've established that 4 tendrils is correct.

Thanks for wasting everyone's time.

[houseplant]

If you live near there and you are looking for someone to test with let me know I am always looking for a good game and I need someone new to play with.

i live just by the mall. like a ten minute walk. not bad.

we are always looking for more people to play with.

i've tried the Spoils of the Vault, i really wanted it to work, another tutor, and not as risky for loosing cards as consultation, but when i was play tested it the first time i used it, looking for a cull, sometimes you tutor for weird cards so you can go off. but yeah, spoiled for a cull, it was the 30th so card down, so i died, and i have 4 culls in the deck. sometime they just aren't were you want them.

i tried a couple more times, but after all of the contracts and cruel bargains i end up being at fairly low life and can't play it because the card would have to be in the top 3 or i'd die.

i really wanted it to work though.

i don't think we need the sol ring in there if we have to crypt and vault in, there isn't that many colourless mana requirements in the cards so having too many of them might be bad. though it would work better with the spheres, we actually ran 2 conjurer baubles in the deck. for a 1 mana draw card, that could sit on the table for the next turn if needed. and to make a vampiric tutor into a demonic that hurts more.

Pain's Reward will not help you if you already have lost some life to draw.

yeah. i agree, they aren't bad as the first draw, but ir really depends on who you are playing against.

another good thing about them though is say you play it with a little mana floating, and enough cards in your hand to do a small tendrils, you could also bait them into trying to win the pain's reward, then run out a smaller tendrils since they have lower life. but you would also have to watch out for what cards they could draw in that four that might screw up that plan.

they would also be a pretty good card to bring in around here. since a lot of the people you play are young and new to the game(though i am too), but i find they REALLY don't like to loose life. so i could get away not having to bid that much.

we are play testing 4 bloodstained, 2 overgrown tomb (should be bayous, but we don't have any) and 4 land grants, instead of the 6 swamps 4 fetches. strangely enough seems more mana stable then the previous build, even though it only has 2 lands that produce mana. we need the bayous though, taking 3 life off a fetch hurts when you haven't even done anything yet.

With 8 shuffle cards, I almost want to play with top…

[or-line]

Chromatic sphere works wonders in this deck when i was testing out a similar build it was a card that i was never sad to see. Also i think that you should test the sol ring in this build before cutting it you never know you may like it in there.

[Metman]

I have tinkered around with budget Tendrils decks before but never with the Kobolds.  My suggestion would be to add in the Priest of Gix along with Skullclamps.  It provides painless draw plus by adding 4 more creatures your Cullings become that much more useful.  It may make getting to 4 mana to cast the Tendrils that much easier as well.

[Methuselahn]

I have done zero testing with Cloudstone Curio, and haven't even considered it in a no proxy environment, but, the thought of playing Curio, then generating infinite storm with Kobolds, followed by a Tendrils seems like an interesting thing to consider.  Any thoughts there?

[houseplant]

the idea of curio would be hot. i might try and play test some, since i have a buch.

they do add another card that needs to be there, but i know the deck can win with out them, might be a cool, over kill. i dunno.

edit: oh yeah. gix don't really work, since you need a ritual to get them started, kobold you can just drop. and since they reworded gix, they need to be played from your hand to get the mana, so they are usless after a will.

[spindrift]

Tobi,

I was reading your report on the mono-black with a blue splash. I see that you thought Timetwister was a bad idea to add in your list. Did you do any play testing with that? I was just curious if it would have still given you a better advantage than your opponent. I think in the long run it would give you the slight advantage, especially with all the stax and CS decks running around now. Taking away their graveyard can really put the game's tempo in your favor.

I can't help but think at the point where you get a new hand your opponent will have to chose what they want to counter, and chances are it won't matter much to you what they counter, you will still get your 9 spells to Tendrils with.

The only thing they could really counter to slow you down would be your Rituals, and what a waste of a counterspell, especially when you drop a Yawg will the next turn.
I would love to see a perfectly good Mana Drain go to waste on a Dark ritual.

[Tobi]

In fact we never tested Timetwister, but in theory it is not the card we want to play. The only exception may be after a mulligan to 5 or so, but even then a Contract is better.
Of course Twister is a good card and may be played in Horden Tendrils, but I don't like it.

Countering Rituals is in fact one of the best things your opponent can do. Denying black mana is what hurts you the most with this deck. Therefore the Mana Drain on Ritual would not be such a great "waste" 

[spindrift]

I agree with you that using a Mana Drain on a Dark ritual is the best thing for an opponent to do! I really think it is funny though. I have trained myself to wait to counter what comes after the DR in any other deck that I just find humor in this situation. On a more serious note, Mana Draining a DR really is a fruitless answer for the opponent in the long run, but effective short term.

[Smmenen]

Why would you play Death Wish over Grim Tutor? 

[Imsomniac101]

possibly because of budget concerns.

[houseplant]

yeah, we didn't have either, and death wish's are a couple bucks, grim tutors, $40 online...

[meadbert]

Phyrexian Tower might help since it gets two black mana instead of one if you sac a kobold.

Anyway you can make room for skull clamp?  That makes the kobolds more powerful.

[Draven]

I know you are not building Kobald/Clamp, however, if you are going to use the Kobalds, you should use the best synergistic card with the Kobalds (Skullclamp) and if that is the case, the next best card is Carnival of Souls. That card is just sick in Kobald/Clamp.

A Kobald, Skullclamp and Carnival is a house, it pretty much lets you draw your deck out.

[klu]

Here is a topic about a list I am working on since at least one year. It has been a lot played and golfished and it made some result in tournaments. The 1st kill are about 50% (48 on a 100 test session) and it is really resilient against disruption.
Hope it can give you some ideas for your decks.

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=27005.0

[Numero Uno]

Yes, I played a similar deck in a mono-black version and with a blue splash. Here are the reports for reference:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=25381.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=26019.0


Pain's Reward will not help you if you already have lost some life to draw. If you have problems getting black mana, use Chromatic Spheres. They are also helpful if you need to draw that card you just Vampiric'd for.

4 Tendrils is a must. You absolutely need to find them constantly, and its never bad to have 2 of them, since you can win with 4 spells and 2 Tendrils.

Sideboard suggestion:
- transformational Oath (need to remove Kobolds of course)
or:
- 4 Defense Grid, theses are needed against control and Fish
- 4 Unmask
- solution for Meddling Mage, True Believer and Platinum Angel (Snuff Out, Vendetta)
- you will not need reactive cards like Crypt and Extraction, you need cards to protect your combo!
- alternate kill (4 Negator! )

That or you could -4 unmask
                          -2defense grid
                         + 3 darkblast
                         + put the yawg will in the SB (via death wish)
                         + 2 Coffin Purge