[Single Card Discussion] Leyline of the Void

[Harkius]

There is another Guildpact card that may have impact on Vintage.

It is called Leyline of the Void
2BB
Enchantment
If ~this~ is in your opening hand, you may start the game with it in play.
If a card would be put into the graveyard, it is removed from the game instead.

This could solve a lot of messy problems in Vintage. It has a couple of advantages. First, it cannot be countered, as I understand it, if it comes into play in this fashion, and since you aren't actually paying for it, it isn't as expensive as it looks. Secondly, since you aren't paying for it, you really don't need to run any black sources of mana. This could lower the reliance of certain decks (like CS and potentially Stax) on their graveyards, and take away a valuable resource. In addition, it hoses Will, which is always nice. The drawback is that if you don't start the game with one in play, you can virtually count on it never making it there. In addition, I am not sure that most Type I decks right now can sacrifice four slots for the 40% chance to get one of these, nor am I sure that they can mulligan away otherwise good hands to try to get one.

Any thoughts?
Harkius

This is a Vintage thread. New topic created and moved to an appropriate forum.
Godder

[Bulls on Parade]

It sucks because as you said it requires 4 slots if you wish to run it. Also, Planar Void comes down on the first turn and it's not great.

[Klep]

There is a significant difference which makes this better in one way than Planar Void.  With this card, things never hit the graveyard while with Planar Void, they do.  The whole reason Planar Void sucks is that it is easy to play around.  Since a card is never removed from the game until the trigger resolves, one can simply do things with that card in response to the Void trigger.  This Leyline has a replacement effect, which means that there is no responding to it.  If it were to hit play, it truly would hose graveyard-base strategies.

None of this changes the fact, however, that it costs 2BB.  It isn't going to show up in your opening hand even as a 4-of enough to justify running it.

[cssamerican]

I might not really matter in terms of if the card is Vintage playable or not, but the rumored wording from MTGSalvation is:
Leyline of the Void
{B}
Enchantment 
If Leyline of the Void is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it in play.
If a card would be put into an opponent's graveyard, remove it from the game instead.

That makes the card somewhat better since it doesn't effect you Will, Welders, or reanimation plans. Still, I doubt that it will be very effective for the reasons already given.

[M.Solymossy]

This card might actually be very crucial part in Stax mirrors, keeping your opponents wastes and wasted lands from being put back into play via crucible, and keeping them from welding their dorks and metal back into play when htey guy bye-bye seems pretty good while you establish land superiority.

[TheUprisal]

This card...wtf?  It seems like, ironically w/ Chalice, it was made for Vintage.

Is it in the name?

But onto the actual card, this seems like it could fuck some shit up. Problem being, if you want to really utilize it you need to run 4, and its a TERRIBLE topdeck oh lets see...anytime!

At least Chalice you have an ability to possibly use it after turn one...

Good idea, bad execution.

[Harkius]

First off, it is vastly better in execution than Planar Void. As I recall, and I just checked and I recall correctly, Planar Void still allows them to hit the graveyard. There is a chance to bounce something with Welder against a Planar Void. On the other hand, this is a replacement effect. It is "faster." Therefore, it is marginally more useful. And, as someone corrected me, it is your opponent's cards, not everyone's. This also helps.

The cost is a bit ridiculous, but that was because they are a cycle of cards. As this is the first time that this particular design (the leyline mechanic, as it were), they are leaving future design space (stupidly, since this is not terrifically useful without good cards around in the first place) for this in case it is popular. That is why it is costed so stupidly high.

Harkius

[dicemanx]

The question really is if graveyard hate is even necessary or strong in today's meta, and also if its necessary to remove every single card or if pinpoint removal suffices. The comparison between the Leyline and Planar Void is a little unfair as well - it is much more fair to compare the Leyline to graveyard removal cards that are *actually* used in T1, with Phyrexian Furnace, Coffin Purge, and Tormod's Crypt leading the charge. Stating that Leyline is superior over Planar Void because there's a replacement effect instead of a triggered effect really isn't saying much in my opinion. The fact that you also have to load up on Leylines to increase your chances of seeing one in your opening grip really seals the deal - as things stand now, I would not remotely consider this card in T1.

[Evenpence]

This card is worse than Planar Void for three reasons:

1)  You need to run multiples in order to reliably get this card in your opening hand.
     Planar Void is a 2 or 1 of with no problems.

2)  This card is hard to hardcast.
      Planar Void is one B.

3)  The card is hard to just dump for perms to sac to stax.
     Planat Void is one B.

Planar Void does not see play, and this will see less.  Planar Void is a great card though, and a very good anti-meta card.  The card wrecks dragon, and does well against stax, gifts, and even control slaver, as it's only a B to cast.

I can almost guarantee if there are other, "If you start off the game with this card," cards, none of them will be good in Vintage, as they'll be overcosted for their abilities, and none of them will be broken, like mana production.  But, even if it is permanent mana production, like:

4
The in-hand ability
Tap:  Add 1 to your mana pool.

The card wouldn't see play in decks other than combo, (and might not even see play in combo, as Elvish Spirit Guide is better, and is hardly a 4 of in any deck except Belcher.  Although it is a great first turn mana boost, it's too risky to draw, as it's virtually completely dead.

I'm betting that all the new cards will have the same detriment to them, and therefore, will be rendered unplayable.

[Whatever Works]

This card is awful. Whoever says that 4 slots is not alot is just wrong! First off 40% chance isnt alot... #2... Its not like this card is an end all at all!!! I mean it isnt hard to remove from the game at all, and It is a horrible card mid/late game...

Double black casting cost makes it very hard to cast by itself, and there is no deck in the format that I would actually consider it all that crippling vs.

In a Stax Mirror matchup I would much rather be the first to play heretic/R@R/Shaman etc.

Kyle L

[Dozer]

This card is awful. Whoever says that 4 slots is not alot is just wrong! First off 40% chance isnt alot... #2... Its not like this card is an end all at all!!! I mean it isnt hard to remove from the game at all, and It is a horrible card mid/late game...

Since you HAVE to run 4 to make some use out of the "vanguard"-abillity, you are automatically playing with three dead cards in your deck. That's not exactly worth it to make an opponent play without a graveyard, since every deck that relies on the graveyard has an alternate win without it. For the prospect of foiling those strategies, Tormod's Crypt is stronger: It can make an opponent load up his graveyard and then suddenly wipe out his strategic build-up. Harder to play around, and doesn't cost 2BB. I don't like Leyline of the Void.

Dozer

[TheFram]

Seems to me that if you are expecting alot of graveyard centric decks - i.e. welder stax, CS, Gifts, Dragon, Tog - sideboarding this as a 4 of is not a terrible idea (especially if you are playing black, and even more so if the effect is one sided). Your odds of getting one in the opener if you aggresively mulligan for it are quite good (not going to go into the math right now, its been done before).

The effect certainly rapes Dragon, and I imagine it makes things rather hard for any welder deck, Tog, and Gifts. Not sure whether dragon, tog, and welder stax are prevalent enough anymore to merit sideboarding this guy, but it seems reasonable to me depending on the metagame you play in.

[Harkius]

LOL.

I never meant to suggest that it was GOOD. Merely curious if anyone thought that it was playable. The problem with most of the others is that there is a time for reaction (Planar Void and Tormod's Crypt being the most obvious examples, but Coffin Purge also easily meeting this opposition). Just think of this having non-game text suggesting that it is the right tool when it absolutley, positively, CAN'T come back.

I agree with the majority of you that it won't be played. However, there is a chance that it will be. There is another thread about this (somehow), and the people over there have slightly less negative opinions of it.

My two cents.
Harkius

[Evilkin]

I can see it not being a bad sideboard choice in a deck that has more ways to filter it's draws.  Like running Bazaars, Unmasks or maybe in Replenish.

[Lunar]

@ Evenpence...

Actually they ARE going to be making one that generates mana...it will be a land named unluckyman's paradise (please correct me if I misread something back when this was the invintational winner...)

It is going to be a land that taps for 1 colorless, unless it is in your opening hand...then it starts the game in play and taps for 5color (again, if I remember correctly)

so its already in the works...

[Imsomniac101]

Just wondering how this works with mulligans. If you mulligan and it appears in your hand of 6, do you get to have it in play?

[Machinus]

Tormod's Crypt is much better than this card. The only reason this enchantment could be useful is that it is free. Crypt is free, but is also retroactive (thus you only need one), and is an artifact on top of all that.

[Harkius]

Actually they ARE going to be making one that generates mana...it will be a land named unluckyman's paradise (please correct me if I misread something back when this was the invintational winner...)

It is going to be a land that taps for 1 colorless, unless it is in your opening hand...then it starts the game in play and taps for 5color (again, if I remember correctly)

so its already in the works...

Don't forget, though, that they tend to turn all of the invitational cards into creatures. I am not sure, come to think of it, that any have been released as non-creatures. So, this one will probably get revamped as well. 0/1 with that ability, maybe? Yay, lets make a more fragile card that dies to Zap...

I understand that they want the cards to be playable, and not broken, but still...

Just wondering how this works with mulligans. If you mulligan and it appears in your hand of 6, do you get to have it in play?

The rules text says that the last hand that you draw, the hand that you keep, is the official hand that it must be in.

Harkius

[Evilkin]

OMG!  Do we have the makings of some kind of crazy ass Serum Powder Combo deck in the running here?   :lol:

[o]

Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but it hardly deserves it's own thread.  I'm gonna go through and list any important T1 cards so far from Guildpact:

Shattering Spree
Sorcery
Replicate R (When you play this spell, copy it for each time you pay the replicate cost.  You may choose new targets for each copy.)
Destroy target artifact.

One of the most efficient mass artifact destruction spells of all-time.  It's a sorcery, but even still it may have the edge over rack and ruin and its ilk.

Quicken
Instant
The next sorcery spell you play may be played at any time you can play an instant.
Draw a card.

Cute.  And it cantrips.  Obviously quicken -> end of turn Will is every gamer's fantasy, but realistically, this is at best a sideboard target for Cunning Wish.... and that's doubtful.

Electrolyze
Instant
Electrolyze deals 2 damage divided as you choose among any number of target creatures and/or players.
Draw a card.

So... fire or ice becomes fire and ice.  Is Fire//Ice even played any more? I don't think so, and 3 mana is a hell of a lot, but the potential for +2 CA is nice.

And really... as of now, that's it from GP.  Surely they'll be at least some more by the time the entire spoiler is revealed.

EDIT:  Oh that's great... there are already threads for these. mmmmkay, you can ignore this post.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Unluckyman's Paradise was Tsuyoshi Fujita's submission for the Invitational.  He didn't win, and his card will not be printed (at least until he wins).  Bob Maher's card is already in print, and the next card will be Terry Soh's.  Afaik, it's called "Jin: Master of Disruption" and has 2B: duress target player, and then he duresses you back.  It's a 2 power creature too, with 2 cc.  Seems very good, especially alongside Bob.

Back on topic, however, all of the leylines are stainz.  The only one worth taking a look at in any format, I think, is the green one in standard/extended where counterspells and creature decks do battle.  None of them are relevant in Vintage, I think.

[Machinus]

Unluckyman's Paradise was Tsuyoshi Fujita's submission for the Invitational.  He didn't win, and his card will not be printed (at least until he wins).

You are incorrect.

The Poll
The Result
Discussion

[pyr0ma5ta]

I stand corrected!  Sorry for being ignorant.

[Lunar]

you should never doubt a fellow californian...heh

[xrobx]

back on topic...

the card in discussion likely won't get played in t1.  It could possibly see play as a sb card for decks like doomsday, where running 4 mainboard unmask is key.  This way, atleast the card ditches to unmask...

still, quite crappy.. cool idea, but too high of a CC to ever be played.  you can win for 3 mana, and disrupt graveyards for 0 mana.  why pay 4 to disrupt a grave?  if you are lucky enough to draw into it, who cares.  you can just as easily draw into a tormods crypt, and force the FoW.

[dandan]

I'm not a huge fan of this card BUT I think most people are missing the point.

This card is on the table at the start of the game and can't be countered.

The mana cost is almost irrelevant (about as relevant as FOW's mana cost), either you have it in your opening hand/hand after mulliganing or you don't. If you don't, you  probably won't see it anywaygood decks that abuse the graveyard are quite likely to either win and/or have counters before you draw it anyway. Also if it is not in your opening hand, another other card that you would have brought in from your SB instead would also not be in your opening hand.

Ignoring tutoring/drawing (a big ignore, I'll grant you), and assuming any graveyard hate must be online by turn 4 or it is a waste of time, this card is effective approx. 70% of the time you see it if you go first and 60% of the time if you go second, with higher %s should you use mulligans to help.  The real question is whether any good decks can afford 4 SB slots purely for graveyard hate rather than 1-2 tutorable ones.

Put another way, if you were to try to design a SB card you would make it uncounterable and effective from the start of the game and would probably let it suck mid and late game in order to do this.

I still don't like the card, but saying how the card is ineffective when not drawn kind of applies to most cards 

[forests failed you]

The main problem that I see with this card in Vintage is though it is an extremely powerful effect against certain decks when it is in your opening hand, in order to draw it one would need to play multiples.  Therefore even if it is drawn in the opening hand, later draws of this card will be dead.  Also, it is difficult to cast around Mana Drains if it isn't in the opening hand, or if it becomes bounced.

It can be easily answered by Echoing Truth from any blue decks board.  I think this card is really strong, but not necessarily in Vintage.  It seems like a really good solution to the Ichorid deck in Extended, or against any of the Dredge based combo decks in that format.  Morning Tide was as strong card in that format, and this card is free and uncounterable so it must be good.

With regard to Vintage; The deck I see as most able to abuse this cards is possibly the Black/Blue Fish deck running Bob and disruption.  However, it seems like a sneaky card that other decks could board in as well.  I would be interested to see how it tests against combo decks, though I still think Tormod's Crypt is a stronger card.

[49 Cents]

I really like the card, but it's a damn pity you need to play with 4 just to get it in your openings hand 40% of the time.

Since the copies 2-4 are useless once you have one in play, I think this might be best at place in any deck running Bazaars. Discarding useless cards are still beter then discarding non-Squee cards. So, I'd say I'm willing to test it in Dragon, CA and Leviat..

Thoughts?

[Warmonger]

^I think you won't do it, as this card kills Dragon immediately. Also Crucible / Welder stop working, Oath will mill himself out.

This is a great sideboard card - just put 4 in and take 3 mulligans  so many deck will be locked form the beginning.

[Moxlotus]

There have been different wordings.  Some involve it only affecting your opponent.