["Article"] Breaking and Entering, John Rizzo

[LordHomerCat]

As for Rizzo, you do realize that this is a SCG Daily article, hence, it didn't bump your Chicago report off the front page or anything.  Also, if any of you have read any of his other articles, he constantly states that he is a terrible player, and a terrible deckbuilder.  The reason he broke Ichorid in EXT (and really, he only gets credit for the idea and an early skeleton decklist, pro and ptq players turned it into the monster it is now) is because he is in love with the card Ichorid (see also: crypt keeper).

Don't think that anyone but casual players reads Rizzo in hopes of picking up the latest tech.  I mean, read today's article about WOTC R&D, does that seem even remotely serious to you?  You're really getting way bent out of shape over a random casual writer (and terrible player) who is just having fun with his Daily series.  Did any of you read his previous couple premium articles?  In which he details his dominating legacy events with friggorid?  Including his first summary, where he describes winning a ~14 person tournament featuring his 9 yr old son Lackey-ing out a goblin piker and someone else playing a Phyothydra?  There is nothing serious and inflammatory being said about Type1 in this article.  Rizzo is one of the quintisential Casual authors on SCG, and thats what this and all his daily articles have been, casual and humorous.

Really, this is a guy who quit magic years ago because he was tired of Netdecking and Intentional Draws.  I don't think theres much chance of him poisoning potential vintage players.

[Lunar]

I don't think theres much chance of him poisoning potential vintage players.

no...the point you are missing is that A: he IS a terrible writer and B: there are a-holes out there that will listen to him and this will confirm their previously held stereotypes of the Vintage format.

Why would SCG knowingly publish a confirmed terrible writer? hes not really THAT funny, and generally comes off as ignorant and bad.

Perhaps its just myself and my locale, but I have to fight on a regular basis the stereotypical responses of people watching myself and a few others play T1. People still come up and say crap like "lets play a game of T1, flip a coin...heads, I win..." Ive been working really hard trying to break people away from this severly limited thinking and open their eyes to the format, then along comes this really really terrible writer who happened to come up with one good idea and he sets me back months and months instantly.

But I dont even really blame rizzo...I point the finger at SCG for publishing this waste (even if it is only a daily) and it dissapoints me that some of my money for premium access goes to this guy.

[Pselus]

holy touchy subject batman!

honestly...if you take Rizzo seriously...then you aren't getting the point.  Even John Friggin Rizzo doesn't take Rizzo seriously.
The Ichorid deck was a deck he came up with to play for fun.  Some Pro's saw it and said: "Wait a tick...this is interestingly broken" then they tweaked it and it became the monster it is in Extended now.
Rizzo was scheduled to write the SCG Daily articles this week and asked people what they wanted to hear about...they told him to write about Friggorid in Vintage so he did.  People do not read Rizzo articles for the latest tech...if they do, and they decide that Friggorid is the deck they're gonna play in Vintage...guess what...easy match win for you at your next tournament.
As for his writing abilities.  That's up to each individual reader to assess...personally I think the man is hilarious, but I couldn't care less what he writes about...I just enjoy his way of thinking and the puns that he comes up with.  He could write about his blender and I'd probably laugh...just because you don't find it funny doesn't mean it's not funny to someone else...that's the worst example of self-centeredness I've ever seen.

Also...those players that believe that Type 1 is all about who wins the coin flips...let em...they are ALSO the people you don't want to actually play Vintage because they're pigheaded and closedminded.
Also also...there is 2-land Belcher out there.  First Type 1 tourney I played in I faced JDizzle and lost turn 1 and turn 2.  Type 1 IS fast and broken...but so is Extended and Legacy...and any format larger than Type 2.

All in all...Type 1 players have a "bad" reputation for being condescending...this entire topic generally supports that view...you don't want to support the negative and FALSE views that people have of you.

[Lunar]

honestly...if you take Rizzo seriously...then you aren't getting the point

its not that we dont get that he isnt serious...its that it is SO bad that it doesnt even belong...

The Ichorid deck was a deck he came up with to play for fun.  Some Pro's saw it and said: "Wait a tick...this is interestingly broken"

This doesnt mean he should write more nonsense about it and blatently bitch slap vintage. While he is trying to make fun of himself I guess, he also makes fun of the format that we have worked hard to make legit.

People do not read Rizzo articles for the latest tech...if they do, and they decide that Friggorid is the deck they're gonna play in Vintage...guess what...easy match win for you at your next tournament.

Then that is actually setting us back if we are going to have people playing bad decks because he accidentally stumbled into something good for a format that has nothing to do with T1. There are even decent versions of Ichorid already floating around in T1 that might actually work...this sets them apart from the piece that rizzo tossed up there.

As for his writing abilities.  That's up to each individual reader to assess...personally I think the man is hilarious, but I couldn't care less what he writes about...I just enjoy his way of thinking and the puns that he comes up with.  He could write about his blender and I'd probably laugh...just because you don't find it funny doesn't mean it's not funny to someone else...that's the worst example of self-centeredness I've ever seen.

Maybe this is an example of why non-jewish people shouldnt make fun of jews and why white people cant make fun of black people. Let him write about his blender...that would be preferable.

Also...those players that believe that Type 1 is all about who wins the coin flips...let em...they are ALSO the people you don't want to actually play Vintage because they're pigheaded and closedminded.

Actually ive brought several over from the darkside and they are guys that are great for the format and people I love having at our tournaments...everybody can be changed for the most part, and this really does set things back...

Also also...there is 2-land Belcher out there.  First Type 1 tourney I played in I faced JDizzle and lost turn 1 and turn 2.  Type 1 IS fast and broken

Yes this does happen, but if you think the whole format is like that then you are about as stupid as rizzo.

but so is Extended and Legacy...and any format larger than Type 2.

You do redeem yourself there, but even T2 for the past several years has been the same thing, it just seems longer because there are a few turns of land go before one player does something stupid.

All in all...Type 1 players have a "bad" reputation for being condescending...this entire topic generally supports that view...you don't want to support the negative and FALSE views that people have of you.

This is a knee jerk reaction from years of non vintage players thinking our format is something it is not...rizzo and SCG (who used to be a MAJOR supporter of the format) did a dis-service to us (IMO) by reinforcing those stereotypes again. We arent condescending (well, some are, heh) we are just not ignorant of the format like a number of people are...we see people like Zvi and others claiming that they are going to break our format, and many many believe them...then they make a fool out of themselves...At least the theory behind some of what Zvi said seemed sound, heh...

[Komatteru]

All in all...Type 1 players have a "bad" reputation for being condescending...this entire topic generally supports that view...you don't want to support the negative and FALSE views that people have of you.

We're no worse than anyone else.  What do you think a pro/semipro/serious PTQ player would say about a deck you cooked up without knowing like anything about the format and presented as a deck for extended?  It's just that "normal" people are "in charge," of Vintage, and you can actually speak to and criticize the best players in the format.  You don't get to do that for the Pro formats.  You just take what they give you and like it.

guess what...easy match win for you at your next tournament.

I personally don't enjoy goldfishing my deck against decks that can't stop me.  I can do that at home and get about the same benefit out of it.

[Pselus]

This doesnt mean he should write more nonsense about it

that was part of my point though...he wrote what people wanted him to...and honestly, like someone else in this thread said...he was RIGHT about how Vintage breaks down.

Combo decks that can win before you take a turn.
Creature decks.
Hybrids with some disruptive elements

there is absolutely nothing wrong in that assessment.
Also...even JDizzle went into the forum post on SCG about this article and supported that point by saying:

Winning on turn like 4 while not actually doing anything to stop your opponent is not a winning strategy.

From what I see, that fully supports what Rizzo said...if JDizzle meant to stress the "not doing anything to stop your opponent" part then he should have cause that sentence sure looks like it's saying "turn 4 isn't fast enough for Vintage".

Anyway...the point I'm trying to get across mostly is that Rizzo is not an idiot, he did not write that article to intentionally "harm" Vintage and I am willing to bet that if you emailed him and said: "You should have done some more research into Vintage before using your influence as an SCG writer to make it appear as a degenerate format"...he would respond in a kind fashion.

I'm sorry...but Rizzo is one of my favorite writers, not because of content but because of attitude...which is "fun"...and coming in here and seeing tons of insults about the guy from people who probably wouldn't say it to his face (though JDizzle did say it to his avatar at SCG) just kinda bothered me.

[Lunar]

that was part of my point though...he wrote what people wanted him to...

I write for another site myself (hey even been published on SCG too...) and I write articles generally on what people ask me to. This doesnt mean that I throw up some random re-hashed junk about a format I know nothing about...if somebody wanted me to write an article on limited boros drafting id kindly tell them no that I cant do it since I know nothing about it...have at least a little respect for yourself and others...

he was RIGHT about how Vintage breaks down.

actually he isnt...and this more than any other problem caused by the article is what concerns me...

From what I see, that fully supports what Rizzo said...if JDizzle meant to stress the "not doing anything to stop your opponent" part then he should have cause that sentence sure looks like it's saying "turn 4 isn't fast enough for Vintage".

Winning fast in the format is never a bad thing, and it is possible...JD's point is that since it does nothing to the opponent it will lose because...undaunted the other decks are just faster...

There is a difference to winning games on turn 1 or 2 every game, and having a fundamental turn of 2 or 3...letting other decks goldfish is a bad strategy in vintage...going fast is one thing..going fast without a backup plan is another.

I'm sorry...but Rizzo is one of my favorite writers, not because of content but because of attitude...which is "fun"...and coming in here and seeing tons of insults about the guy from people who probably wouldn't say it to his face (though JDizzle did say it to his avatar at SCG) just kinda bothered me.

Rizzo can be your favorite writer, I never had a complaint about him until he dismantled vintage terribly...Im not even sure that any of these are actual insults...he himself claims to be a bad and "terrible" writer and bad player...Im throwing more insults at SCG who is actually willing to publish such World Weekly News type article...

Ill even go and say it...Rizzo is fine...SCG is just bad for actually publishing that...there, happy? now your pet writer wont get his feelings hurt.

Honestly, this isnt really meant to bad mouth the guy, this is a T1 forum discussing T1 events and problems and whatnot...if we discern that there is a problem with something we are more than entitled to come together as a community to discuss it...pros and cons (just so happens that there are a whole lot of cons on this one.)

Not to mention that if you think I wouldnt say it to his face then you obviously have no idea who I am or how big I am...

[Pselus]

SCG is just bad for actually publishing that...there, happy?

sure

 

[Vegeta2711]

This thread reminds me of why nobody cares what Vintage players have to say. One bad article about Vintage and people are bitching their ass off.

Sometimes I really wish SCG would just cancel the P9 tourney series just to remind you all how much support they've given this format, before the next time everyone wants to cry about something irrelevant.

[Lunar]

please dude...

I understand that SCG has done a TON to help our format...more than anybody else in fact (cept maybe ray with waterbury I guess, heh)

SCG posted some garbage...we have a right to complain about said garbage...Im not on SCG bashing them to the owners face and stuff...im voicing my concerns with SCGs editing staff to other vintage players who can care or not, at their discretion.

Im not saying SCG should f*ck off and cancel their tournaments because of one article, but it might be nice if they paid attention to what they publish...or maybe they do and just wanted to ruffle some feathers. Either way it was a piss poor article. And I suppose you could listen to your own advice.

I cant comment on their tournaments though, I am poor and live in california, and thus cannot travel that far. I know it has definatly helped the popularity of the format. But threatening to cancel the tournament series because a couple of people complained about an obviously bad article seems a bit over the top.

[Komatteru]

Yeah, I don't really see any reason for any "OMG! SCG published this, so..." comments.  Rizzo is a moron.  That's really my only point.

[Prometheon]

Guys, calm the hell down. The article is obviously a joke, and I found it quite entertaining. No need to get so serious...

[Lunar]

Rizzo is a moron.  That's really my only point.

I suppose in the long run thats really my only point too...im just long winded about these things, heh..

Guys, calm the hell down

I was never really un-calm...I just like to bitch sometimes...my work is incredibly boring so I get lots of time to complain about things I dislike I guess...

although it is always fun when people start to take ME so seriously, heh.

[Dirty_Harry]

Actualy I rather liked the article, it reminds me that people who have absolutely no hope of ever being good still play, you know those casual players.  The way most of us use to all be back when we were 13 when we use to play just for fun and just with the cards we had in our little 500count boxes, when we would play with all of them in one huge pile.  I'm just saying take the article for what ever u want but it obviously just for fun, and meant for non-competitive players(hopefully), I'm not trying to defend this pile or attacking anyone for what they've said, but all in all does it really matter what this one guy at SCG had to say about Type one.  Just have a good laugh at all the people who think there gonna break into type 1 with this deck and move on.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Oh please.  Ready for round two, guys?

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/11258.html

[Komatteru]

And of course, the complete lack of Force of Will when I cast turn 1 Zombie Infestation.

Hey, Rizzo and I agree on something! I think the same thing when my opponent has FoW for my turn 1 Belcher/Ancestral Recall/Draw 7/Necro/Trinisphere too! 

[Gabethebabe]

Guys, calm the hell down. The article is obviously a joke, and I found it quite entertaining. No need to get so serious...

QFT

If I were John Rizzo  and I would read these two pages of TMD people whining about my article I would just completely laugh my ass off.

You are all officially Wasting Your Time.

[Kasuras]

Guys, calm the hell down. The article is obviously a joke, and I found it quite entertaining. No need to get so serious...

QFT

If I were John Rizzo  and I would read these two pages of TMD people whining about my article I would just completely laugh my ass off.

You are all officially Wasting Your Time.

That's a little harsh: we all spent time developing our format, and to see a large fraction of that work "destroyed" like this is in my opinion definitely worthy of such discussion. Seriously: we spend time developing the format, but you're saying we can't discuss articles on major sites that "destroy" that work?

Is our work really destroyed by a large fraction by this article? That entirely depends on what your aim is: if part of that aim is to get more people in the format, then yes: I do think that this article is a major setback in that mission because someone pretending (granted; he's bad at pretending this) he knows about the format spouting such lies will surely reach some potential vintage players in a negative fashion.

Not to mention that it is obvious that a vintage article will get discussed on a website dedicated to that format.

[Draven]

Oh please.  Ready for round two, guys?

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/11258.html

Gawd Damn this guy is funny...

Anybody who seriously thinks this guy destroyed (is destroying) our format needs to go home tonight, turn all the lights off and sip some red wine and relax alittle bit. I remember an article by someone here about Vizzerdrix that was pretty amusing... ( I laughed at that one too.)

Remember, after we all go home at the end of the day, log off TMD, put our power in a safe we play the game for fun.

[Pselus]

if this topic truly were a discussion about the article it'd be one thing...but it's not...this whole topic is dedicated to slamming Rizzo and SCG for "destroying" the format.
I'm sorry, but if that one article were all it took to destroy the Vintage format...was it really a healthy format anyway?
Also...I don't see one place where Rizzo seriously said he understood Vintage...I see a whole lot of places where he said he didn't have a clue about Vintage and Legacy and he wasn't sure the deck really would work.
Seems to me that some of the posts in this topic are getting pissed over 1 or 2 sentences that were said in jest...what a wonderful way to make people want to play Type 1.

[Kasuras]

You got me wrong Pselus, I haven't said that Rizzo destroyed the format with this article but that he destroyed a large fraction of it. There's a fundamental difference there.

[Draven]

Chicken Little

[nataz]

You got me wrong Pselus, I haven't said that Rizzo destroyed the format with this article but that he destroyed a large fraction of it. There's a fundamental difference there.

thats hilarious.

on the whole,
"Why Rizzo, but not me!"
-JD

The answer is simple, Rizzo has literally thousands of fans that would pay to see him on SCG, you have maybe 50 (of which I am one).

I don't love Rizzo, but I like him, at least daily style (I wouldn't really pay for him). The weird thing about Rizzo is that he is one of, if not the, most popular writers of all time on SCG. When he came back, it was a big deal, because it gave thousands of casual players someone to champion. You can do that. You champion Type I players, and often not just any type one players, but those who play combo.

I enjoy your work quite a bit, but I think its awfully silly to even try and compare yourself to the Rizz.

and @ the whole, "Oh noes, the Format has been done evil!"

If anything, he probably got more people to play the format. "If Rizzo is willing to give it a try, why not me?" Sure he wasn't playing in a perfect well developed meta, or with power, or against larger numbers of people, but how many of us are? More importantly, how many of us where when we started?


If anything, here is what you should be focusing on one of the most popular online writers saying this,

Last night, I read a number of Vintage articles, poured over the decklists and came to a conclusion: the format isn't as DeGeneres as I thought. While there are a number of ridiculous plays that can be made, I can't see - though I'm sure I don't know what to look for – a deck that simply terrifies me.

I may be wrong about the playability of Friggorid in the format of utter silliness, but until that's proven, and I bet many of you will attempt to do just that and will likely succeed, I'll go and figure that Vintage can be successfully pestered by an Extended deck with Ashen Ghoul and a mere four broken cards. 

His entire article was tongue n cheek, but if Rizzo can convince new players to try an extended Ichy shell for Type I, props to him.

[Komatteru]

I was only upset that Knut said that my last report had too much rambling for him to want to edit, since it had like, good information in it.  The average Rizzo article has about 3x times more rambling and half the good information in it.  It's one thing to be like "yeah, well, we don't publish rambling" when clearly, that isn't the case.

[kirdape3]

Ted Knutson now edits magicthegathering.com.  The venom is to be directed at Craig Stevenson now.

[Komatteru]

I haven't submitted anything to Craig yet.

[Harkius]

This is, surprisingly, a fairly complicated issue, so I will go through it in a logical and rational fashion, and maybe we can decide to either A)ignore Rizzo completely, B)burn him in effigy, or C)realize when we should an dshould not take him seriously.

So, as near as I can tell, Rizzo did one thing that really upset a few people. No, its not that he claimed to break the format with Ichorid. No one, including him, really believes that is going to become Tier the First. Instead, his fundamental sin was in oversimplifying Type I. Is this a big problem? Well, I will address that in a few minutes.

First, should Rizzo even be writing about Type I? Or should that be left to people who actually know and care about it, like Smenendian and JDizzle and the other members of Team Meandeck (and Team ICBM, and the others who are fairly prolific, even on the threads). I can't really purport to answer that with authority. There are a hell of a lot of things that I write about, and I don't really know much about nearly anything. Don't want to be a hypocrite, after all. The important thing is to clarify when you are theorizing and when you are simply guessing at things. Rizzo doesn't really tend to do this, which is unfortunate. In this case, it would be much preferable if he did.

Second, try to realize Rizzo's role in the MtG community. He is a teacher, like it or not. If I know the crowd that he is teaching, and I think that I probably do, then they are casual players who are looking toward tournaments for the first time. So, they haven't been to very many of them, and they are likely very curious as to what they are like. Although Star City and Ray do a good job of promoting Type I (Thanks guys!), large Type I tournaments are relatively rare. If you need proof, simply look at the fallout of what happened last weekend at the Waterbury: everyone was either there or desperately waiting for updates about the tournament in progress. It was the fastest growing thread that I have ever seen here. Players eagerly devour information. But, the casual player reading Rizzo's article probably hasn't ever been to one of these events. They may have been to a local Type I tournament, the kind where a few players tend to steamroll the local competition, and usually do a fairly convincing job of it, too. This is not the kind of thing that, combined with Rizzo's statements (accurate or not) will do good things for the community.

Like it or not, we as players have a responsibility to our environment. It is really easy to grow jaded about playing with power. But the audience that Rizzo is talking to would probably enjoy being beaten by a powered deck, just because he will be thrilled at actually seeing a Mox. His joy at seeing it on the other side of the table will be vastly greater than your jaded acceptance of a first turn Orchard. Try to remember this and not to be condescending when it happens. And, when the "newb" asks you if he can touch your Mox, which he will, be tolerant and patient. Let him do so. (Hold onto something throwable, preferably heavy too, to hit him with if he decides to run, but let him hold on to it.) It is the condescending attitude that so many have complained about that will destroy Type I, not Rizzo's comments.

Fourth, yes, the prolific authors and experts in Type I are more approachable than their Standard or Legacy or Extended counterparts. No, this doesn't mean that you get to be a jerk at tournaments because you're cool on the boards. The fact is that this is a community, and it is a growing one. If we want it to stay that way, and I assume that we do, we have to accept that the community is small and has to live in a more limited environment (not Limited, limited) and on a steeper zone of tolerance. So, we can't afford to be arrogant and mean to new players. Take them under your wing, teach them the environment. Teach them why Craw Wurm isn't good enough, and Wild Mongrel isn't either.

Finally, does Rizzo's article deserve the vitriolic response that it got? Perhaps, perhaps not. If he damaged the community, he may deserve a tongue-lashing. The community is hard to get into, and Rizzo encouraged many people not to enter it, so it is potentially harmful. However, the response to his article was, quite possibly even worse. What it said, as he pointed out in his second article, was that if you intrude into Type I without a really strong foundation, you are going to be assaulted. This is not the message that we need to send to built community unity.

So, fellows, try to hold your tongues in check unless it is necessary to be as venomous as we've been. Yes, Rizzo was wrong. His tech was bad, and he encouraged people to never bother with Type I. A better response would have been measured. It would have said that Rizzo's article was wrong, that he is wrong about Type I, and that his comments were completely out of the blue. Yes, all of these things were said, and it was nice to hear. However, it was not nice to see the personal attacks, the comments on questionable parentage, etc.

In the future, let's attempt to be a bit more considered in our responses. Set a better example, one that tells people that Vintage is home of thinkers, not of blustering children. We have a responsibility, and if we want to see our environment do well, we need to take that seriously.

Thanks for reading the post.

Harkius

[Kasuras]

What it said, as he pointed out in his second article, was that if you intrude into Type I without a really strong foundation, you are going to be assaulted. This is not the message that we need to send to built community unity.

I only made this response because this was an article on SCG. If that article would have been a thread here, I would probably have helped the person out because he's asking for it, hence the thread. The tone of the thread could have set me off, but I would certainly not make this kind of response.

However, as it stands: there is an article on a website with a lot of potential vintage players. And an article indicates that the thing you're presenting is finished, we can hardly say that, can we?

[Vegeta2711]

I was only upset that Knut said that my last report had too much rambling for him to want to edit, since it had like, good information in it.  The average Rizzo article has about 3x times more rambling and half the good information in it.  It's one thing to be like "yeah, well, we don't publish rambling" when clearly, that isn't the case.

The answer is simple, Rizzo has literally thousands of fans that would pay to see him on SCG, you have maybe 50 (of which I am one).

As for the rest of you.

Anyone who thinks this seriously hurt our format needs to take a step back and get a grip. Molehill -> Mountain.

[Pselus]

...a whole lot of good and well thought out stuff...

quoted so people will reread what nataz said.