Mana Drain for stolen deck

[rkraupach]

This is my first post on TMD and I wish it was under better circumstances.  If this is in the wrong place, please move it to the correct area. 

I've been on the edge of Vintage for a long time.  Family and work obligations keep me busy enough so I get rare chances to get to any organized play.  I get sporadic chances to put together decks, read the forums, play a couple of games with friends.  So its kinda a big deal for me when I get an entire Saturday to come out and play.  I'd arranged to be able to attend this past Waterbury when I first saw the posting for it.
I went with a couple of friends.  I was playing a Fish concoction and we also brought Oath and CS.  My first round was with a guy named Mike (if I remember correctly) playing Oath with Ancient Hydra that it took me too long to find answers to.  After we finished and reset our decks I thought I put my deck in my bag and went to the bathroom (with my bag).  Then I realized my deck was gone.
Did it fall out?  Did I misremember putting it in and leave it on the table?  I don't really know.  We looked around for it but found nothing.  But someone has it and did not turn it in.

I had thoughts of asking Ray to send me my deck list so I could post it along with the back of the sleeves I was using (as it was distinct and I doubt there were any others like it there, bright orange with an angel pictured), hell, I even emailed him yesterday, but the reality is that I don't expect to see the deck again.

What the hell, I will do this:  For whatever its worth, I now offer a reward of a Mana Drain for information that leads to the recovery of my entire deck or the actual return of the deck.  No questions asked.

I would like to thank Ray - you were understanding and helpful to the extent you could be. Please go ahead and forward my list as we discussed.  Jeff, one of the dealers there(and nicest one I've come across), I still have your card and may take you up on some future transactions.  There were a few others that were helpful and sympathetic but I'm sorry I did not get your names.

Richard Raupach, LPCS
Sr. Claim Examiner
Father of four future magic players

[iamfishman]

Decklist as per request:

4 Brainstorm
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Force of Will
3 Curiosity
2 Spiketail Hatchling
1 Boomerang
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Daze
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Suq'ata Firewalker
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Null Rod
1 Voidmage Prodigy
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Gorilla Shaman
1 REB
1 Ancestral*
1 Time Walk*
1 Mox Sapphire*
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Island
2 Plateau
1 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta

SB:
2 Hydroblast
1 Waterfront Bouncer
1 Stifle
2 Goblin Welder
1 Platinum Angel
1 Interdict
1 Null Rod
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Maze of Ith
1 Rack and Ruin

[M.Solymossy]

Hey man, I wasn't there (im in WI) but I want you to know the community gives you their support.

[rkraupach]

Thank you.  And thanks for posting the deck.  I appreciate that.  I have no doubt the community as a whole abhors the fact that a few people take things that don't belong to them.  It just leaves a complete sense of helplessness and frustration to lose cards that one spends years acquiring.  I've been to other events and I'm not blind to the fact that it occurs.  I thought I took reasonable precautions - you know, put the deck back in my bag and carry it around with me.  But my oversight or a simple accident became another's opportunity, and that's just sad.

It's also maddening to hear (more and more now that more people are talking to me about their own experiences) that this happens ALL THE TIME and apparently nothing can be done about it after the fact.  Who is going to call the cops and ruin an entire tournament?  I'm not about to although I seriously considered it - I was that pissed but everyone else didn't deserve that.  Would they even care enough to investigate despite the value of some of the cards?
 
Another fact to note is that the Cloud of Faeries were signed in black marker. Again, for whatever its worth.


Richard Raupach, LPCS
Sr. Claim Examiner 
Father of four future magic players

[Lunar]

Heh, if Ray wants to fly me out to the next waterbury for free ill run security there free of charge (well except the plane ticket, lol), heh...Too many decks and cards seem to get stolen (or maybe its just that since we have a great community we just hear about it more so than at other events, heh)

We need big brother there...

Im watching YOU.

[vartemis]

It is unfortunate when something like this happens.  One small incident can put a damper on an otherwise outstanding tournament.  If it happens enough, it can make one paranoid and untrusting of anyone, which isn't good for the community.

When playing casual games out at a store, I usually proxy anything over $20. It removes the motivation of anyone to try and steal it, and if they do, congrats, you got a shit common with some label paper stuck to it, enjoy.

When it comes to tournaments, I bring nothing in but my deck, any tokens or accessories I need, a notepad and my playmat.  Everything else stays in the car.  This way I dont have a whole bunch of things to keep track of.  I go get my bag with traders during lunch or during the break when totals are being figured out and do my trading then.  I also dont bring any extra decks or cards not for trade to a tournament.  The less cards to take care of the better.  When trading, I deal with one person at a time on a first come, first serve basis, and my binder ALWAYS stays right in front of me.  No one else can look at it until I am finished my current trade.  I once had a bunch of cards stolen out of my trade binder at a tournament because I let too many people look through my binder while I was finishing up another trade. 

People may call you anal, or a jerk, but in the end, you still have to protect yourself.  You can be cautious without being paranoid though.

I have found though, through personal experiences anyways, that the people we have caught in tournaments stealing were usually younger.  I think it may be from the fact that they are not truly old enough to appreciate the money and effort it takes to assemble the cards, and not old enough to have the respect for their fellow gamers.  This doesn't mean to eagle eye all grubby fingered little runts though.  Some of my most fun games were against kids playing rougue decks (squirrel nest stompy?*) who are there for the fun of it, and dont take it as seriously as some of the veterans do.

I was talking with one of my dealer friends that frequents some Ontario tournaments, and we wanted to put together a master list of people caught stealing at tournaments, along with a photograph of them, and pass it out to tournament organizers.  They can then decide whether they want to admit them to their tournament, or at least be aware to keep an eye on them.  Nothing like getting black-balled all over the world.  The list could be periodically updated and names removed after a period of time deemed reasonable.

j

*I actually lost to the kid, and I was playing unpowered meandeck oath (tournament didnt allow power or sideboards).  I mull'd to 5 and still had a crap hand, and finally played an oath around turn 6 (where were they?).  By this point he has a boardfull of freakin squirrels, mana elves, and stream of lifed himself to 25.  I oath out Akroma and Sotn, and get him down to 7.  his next turn he hurricanes for 6 and swings with everything, I'm dead.

I also got a free foil oath for catching a kid tryin to palm an emerald off a table that tourney.  I would have smacked the kid around for payment, but I was happy to see him kicked out without a refund. Doofus.

[rkraupach]

I LIKE that idea.  Posting names for everyone to see or even just providing a list of names of people caught stealing to TO's so they can decide if they should be allowed in or if extra alertness is necessary.   That's doing something.  How effective it is, well, that would be seen down the road.  Information sharing is the key.  Hell, I do it all the time with claims to help prevent fraud.  We enter them into a large database accessible by other insurance companies so we can see if there is a trend with any particular person or group.  It helps us flag potential problems.
Anyone have space they can make a database of names accessible to TO's?  I'd volunteer the space if I had the means or know/how.
Everyone - let's expand on this idea, or discuss the cons.  Why wouldn't this be a good idea given that we'd like these events to be a perpetual, ongoing happening?

Richard Raupach, LPCS
Sr. Claim Examiner 
Father of four future magic players

[orgcandman]

I LIKE that idea.

I, on the other hand, don't. Not because I would ever have my name on it (because I wouldn't) but more because that idea can sentence someone to pay for something for a very long time after making one stupid mistake. Imagine if petty larcenists had to register everywhere they went. Or worse, as soon as they moved, their new place of residence were already notified. This would be great if their recidivism rate were 100%.

Unfortunately, (or fortunately actually) the recidivism rate is not 100%, and many people change. When they're caught, swift justice is dealt out accordingly. Why keep punishing them?

-Aaron

[rkraupach]

I agree that people change.  Happens all the time.  But when?  How long does it take?  Who knows. 
I don't think this should be a permanent list.  It really should just be kind of a guide or warning. 
This is not an uncommon thing to do, in a variety of industries, and in some instances, actually helps.

Geez, this is just a game. With expensive cards that get stolen, but still, just a game.  Put a time limit on the thing.  Neither myself, nor anyone out there is qualified to make a permanent judgement.  But being on "the list" for a while may make someone think again the next time around.  It's not like its going to affect anyone's credit rating   

On the other hand, is something like this simply over the top, or a wasted effort?
Is there anything else that can act as a preventative instead of forcing people to react after the fact?  Is it impossible to police an event that is nearing 200 participants?  I'm not a TO so, please, keep the opinions coming.

Richard Raupach, LPCS
Sr. Claim Examiner 
Father of four future magic players

[vartemis]

I, on the other hand, don't. Not because I would ever have my name on it (because I wouldn't) but more because that idea can sentence someone to pay for something for a very long time after making one stupid mistake. Imagine if petty larcenists had to register everywhere they went. Or worse, as soon as they moved, their new place of residence were already notified. This would be great if their recidivism rate were 100%.

Unfortunately, (or fortunately actually) the recidivism rate is not 100%, and many people change. When they're caught, swift justice is dealt out accordingly. Why keep punishing them?

-Aaron

The list was not meant to be permanent.  The names on the list would only stay on for a period of time, say 6 months to a year. As well, it would be up to the discresion of the offended to add the person to the list.  If it's a 10 year old kid stealin foil elves, then common sense would be to cuff him one and let him off with a warning.  A guy that has been busted multiple times for theft of cards might be a good idea to label them.   Around here word of mouth usually does the same thing anyways.  A tournament organizer or store owner does not have to consult the list if he/she does not want to.  

It could also double as a list for store owners who are looking to buy cards from someone.  When I go into pawn shops, there is always a list, usually with pictures, of known thieves they are not supposed to take stuff from.  If someone got busted trying to steal some expensive cards, and then they suddenly try and sell some higher priced cards at a store, then store owners could be aware of this.

If you wanted, you could do it all formally and press charges and then hand out a copy of their photo along with what they were caught stealin to the stores, but I think that there are worse things out there than stealing magic cards, and a person should not have a record for petty theft over some moxes.

I don't want to ruin someone's life, but I think something like this would be a useful tool.

j

[iamfishman]

I went through my boxes of stuff and am sending the following care package your way.  I understand it is not close to being all the stolen cards, but I hope it will be a good start toward rebuilding your deck.  I just need the mailing address you want them sent to.

4 Brainstorm
4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Curiosity
2 Spiketail Hatchling
1 Boomerang
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Daze
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Suq'ata Firewalker
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Voidmage Prodigy
3 Gorilla Shaman
1 REB
1 Strip Mine
1 Island

SB:
2 Hydroblast
1 Waterfront Bouncer
1 Platinum Angel
1 Interdict
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rack and Ruin

[Jacob Orlove]

Infinite props @ Ray.

[The Atog Lord]

It is really no wonder why everyone loves Ray.

[rkraupach]

Wow, just wow.  Thanks Ray.  I sent you a message.
Fish will return! (or at least my crappy version)
I'll happily return this favor for anyone else if I have the cards.


Richard Raupach, LPCS
Sr. Claim Examiner 
Father of four future magic players

[Baron.Pocket]

What Ray has just done is great, I'm happy for you and I hope we'ill one day find what is missing.

They can then decide whether they want to admit them to their tournament, or at least be aware to keep an eye on them.  Nothing like getting black-balled all over the world.  The list could be periodically updated and names removed after a period of time deemed reasonable.

I really like this idea. Maybe not in all local tournaments around the globe but in big events, it would be great to have that list.

[Machinus]

The DCI has precisely such a list for sanctioned tournaments, so why shouldn't the unsanctioned Vintage community have one?

[The Atog Lord]

The DCI has precisely such a list for sanctioned tournaments, so why shouldn't the unsanctioned Vintage community have one?

The DCI also has professionals dedicated to making sure that the list is accurate. The Type One community doesn't have the ability to conduct a thorough investigation of all such incidents, and I really don't want to see a witch hunt breaking out in the community. Such a list would be, in the least, very dangerous.

[Machinus]

The DCI has precisely such a list for sanctioned tournaments, so why shouldn't the unsanctioned Vintage community have one?

The DCI also has professionals dedicated to making sure that the list is accurate. The Type One community doesn't have the ability to conduct a thorough investigation of all such incidents, and I really don't want to see a witch hunt breaking out in the community. Such a list would be, in the least, very dangerous.

Requiring the agreement of all the TOs is admittedly an insurmountable obstacle to having an official "list." However, I do think it could be really beneficial for TOs to communicate with each other regarding these issues. Being aware of players that disrupt tournaments can prevent it from happening to different organizers, which is what the idea is here, I think. People like Ray have a great deal of experience running tournaments, both in general and regarding specific players/traders. It could definitely help run better events and possibly prevent this kind of thing from happening.

[The Atog Lord]

Ray, I trust. But what I wouldn't want to see happen is some small shop owner who has a grudge against some player adding that player to this list for vengeance. That's an abuse I could see happening all too easily.

[Apollyon]

As a judge, I can say that talking about DQs or DQ investigations is prohibited outside of the staff running an event, and they are quite strict about that. There was a post to the Judge mailing list from the Judge Manager in a thread that discussed a DQ that consisted of the following line:

Welcome to level zero again for numerous violations of protocal, ethics,
and procedure.

The DCI investigates DQs to ensure that the DQ was a justified DQ, as well as other purposes.

Rich is right in his concerns about how a list like this could very easily be used for vindictive purposes, rather than just as a list to aid TOs. I can't say that I could see very much good coming from it.

[rkraupach]

Ok, I see the different sides of the effects of such a list. 
What about hand stamping?
For example: You have the organizers of the event, you have a number of dealers, you have the participants, and then you have the those that don't fit into those categories.  They may be parents or friends, people that just want to hang out. There also may be those that come with no intention of doing anything other than trading, watching, whatever.
Bear with me for second. . .

I have no idea what category a thief may fit into.  Its probably more an opportunistic action than not.  So would cutting down on the tight intermingling before, during and after matches help?  Participants get their hands stamped and stay in the main seating/playing area - this is a lot of people to deal with anyway.  So, those without can hangout over by the dealers' tables where there would be those extra tables I always seem to see at the events and/or the feature match table.

It may cut down on traffic.  It may make the judges better able to get in and out of the rows easier.  I don't know.  I'm just throwing things out I think seem reasonable.  To me, this seems to add minimal extra effort for the benefit of discouraging theft. Other than a few dollars for a stamp and ink and an extra body to do it (yes, I would volunteer to help with this) it seems to take little extra effort.
As usual, my disclaimer:  I'm not a TO, I've been to a decent amount of events but only as a player so please discuss. Oh, and I promise I will never get to the point of metal detectors and bag and pocket searches.  Let's leave that in the high schools where it belongs. 

Richard Raupach, LPCS
Sr. Claim Examiner 
Father of four future magic players

[CrashTest]

I think that being paranoid usually does the trick, because you always have your binder or deck at your side so there is no chance for it to get stolen. That's your only recourse against thieves- i.e don't give them an oppurtunity. It shouldn't be this way, but unfortunately, it is. Even the most careful can sometimes lose track of their belongings during a long tournament, but if you are extra careful, you can cut down on the amount of times this happens to reduce the chance someone will take your stuff.

       I thought about just using up the full 15 proxies for the most expensive cards, and only play with the cheapest versions of cards in the deck as real cards. I have everything, including power and a lot of pimp, but I think the chance that this may get stolen and i'd be out thousands is worse then not showing off your pimp cards at a tournament.

       Hm, actually, I think I rather take the chance of my expensive stuff being stolen while still being PIMP. Dangerous livin!

[Baron.Pocket]

As a judge, I can say that talking about DQs or DQ investigations is prohibited outside of the staff running an event, and they are quite strict about that. There was a post to the Judge mailing list from the Judge Manager in a thread that discussed a DQ that consisted of the following line:

Welcome to level zero again for numerous violations of protocal, ethics,
and procedure.

The DCI investigates DQs to ensure that the DQ was a justified DQ, as well as other purposes.

Rich is right in his concerns about how a list like this could very easily be used for vindictive purposes, rather than just as a list to aid TOs. I can't say that I could see very much good coming from it.

Aa. Did not saw that side of the medal. You are right. 

[Bram]

The DCI also has professionals dedicated to making sure that the list is accurate. The Type One community doesn't have the ability to conduct a thorough investigation of all such incidents, and I really don't want to see a witch hunt breaking out in the community.

Aw....c'mon, please? I haven't had a decent witch hunt in almost 200 years. We don't need professionals, or thorough investigations. What are we, CSI? We just need one power-crazed lunatic maintaining the list. If noone wants the job, I'll volunteer.

[BigMac]

My attitude towards touching my stuff is very simple. If you do not react to my glare i will say something about it. If you will not react to my words i will say them somewhat louder. If somebody steals something from me and i know who did it he better stay out of my way the rest of his days.

Next to this i am very much looking after my own stuff and i only lend people my cards with the acknowledgement that they will take good care of it as well. Losing my stuff means replacing the deck, or cards you borrowed.

People that know me also know i will bring in the police when something is stolen. I strongly recommend this for everybody. That alone can be enough to scare people away.

For this problem, being in a team is great as there are always people available to watch your stuff for a few moments.

I know it is hard for anybody losing cards in whatever way. I wish you all the best with retrieving your stuff.

[Komatteru]

Aw....c'mon, please? I haven't had a decent witch hunt in almost 200 years.

Did you miss that one we had recently on the forums here? 

[Klep]

Aw....c'mon, please? I haven't had a decent witch hunt in almost 200 years.

Did you miss that one we had recently on the forums here? 

No, that was a scavenger hunt.  Don't you remember?  JP won when he found the toothbrush with half the bristles missing in the Archived Extreme Vintage Forum before Doug could stop playing long enough with the My Little Pony he found in the CCF to turn it in.