Do any magic dealers/traders ever feel guilty?

[ChemEng]

Mykeatog -- I dont know what financial training youve had, but Im going to have to disagree. Simply put, stocks are valued at price XXX because that is the accurate valuation of their company plus potential growth plus everything else divided by number of shares outstanding blah blah blah. Try relating that to Magical cards. You cant because the number of cards outstanding would be ginormous².

My point is this: stocks are bought with the hope that the valuation will rise (excluding selling short strategies because they dont really apply) at the price that the market deems accurate at that time. Compare this to when you trade with a dealer: instead of making an accurate transaction and then waiting for the value of their cards to rise, they try to force an unequal transaction for an immediate gain. Thats how they make money.

Now there is nothing wrong with making money, not at all. In fact you could apply the same complaint from above to every profitable business. But the key difference is this: companies add value to a set of materials which enable them to be sold at a higher price than what they paid for. Buy low, sell high. Magical card dealers dont have that luxury because Card XXX is Card XXX is Card XXX regardless of where its obtained. Its a commodity (barring historical rarities like Edgar Hurricanes). But in order for the dealer to make money selling Card XXX at the price its running that weekend, they have to create an inequitable transaction before and try to capture the difference.

Thats the adversarial spirit that I was talking about in my first post. It pretty much summarizes most of the complaints listed in this thread as well as my experience with trading with Magical card dealers.

[Komatteru]

Simply put, stocks are valued at price XXX because that is the accurate valuation of their company plus potential growth plus everything else divided by number of shares outstanding blah blah blah.

Hah! Stocks have little to do with the companies themselves.  Take a look at the 2000 .com boom.  We had companies with NO PRODUCTS with stocks trading at 200+ per share.  No, stocks are priced according to what some very powerful investors want them to be priced.  They base their evaluations on like infinite factors, one of which is potential growth, but there's tons more that matter.  If this handful of investors want something to go up, they make it happen.  What the average person buys and sells has no effect on stock prices.

[Jacob Orlove]

But the key difference is this: companies add value to a set of materials which enable them to be sold at a higher price than what they paid for. Buy low, sell high. Magical card dealers dont have that luxury because Card XXX is Card XXX is Card XXX regardless of where its obtained. Its a commodity (barring historical rarities like Edgar Hurricanes). But in order for the dealer to make money selling Card XXX at the price its running that weekend, they have to create an inequitable transaction before and try to capture the difference.

If you want it in economic terms: dealers provide a service (several services, actually), and if you want to take advantage of that, you're going to have to pay for it. Want to buy cards without having to trust the internet? Dealer. Want someone else to find all the cards you need for you? Dealer. Want someone who is willing to buy pretty much anything? Dealer. Want someone who will trade Power to you in exchange for cards that aren't power? Dealer.

If you'd rather spend your own time and money doing that, fine, but please realize that you're still going to have to pay for it.

Dealers add a TON of value, and are fully justified in having a reasonable buy/sell spread. Consider: if you want to sell your cards on ebay, and then buy different ones, you will have to pay for shipping, ebay fees, insurance, etc. You'll also have to wait to get the cards, and risk having to deal with fakes/nonpaying bidders/rippers. If the whole process takes 2 hours, well, that's 2 hours that you can't spend at work or having fun--depending on your employment, a couple of hours could be worth $2, $10, $50, or more. You will be trading, say, $25 of cards to get $20 of cards, with all kinds of risks and time investment. Or you could go to a dealer, and make that same trade, in a few minutes. If you don't want to, you don't have to, but it is in no way "unfair" or "unethical" for them to make money on that transaction.

[Komatteru]

This is called market manipulation and securities fraud.  The Securities Exchange Acts of 1933 and 1934 were passed in large part as a response to these sorts of "groups of investors" that existed to artificially manipulate the market and stock prices, as you say.  It, like loitering, is very illegal and carries severe civil and sometimes criminal penalties.

I meant merely that by buying a large amount of stock higher than the current trading price, the influential investors raise the prices.  I didn't mean a group of rich guys are sitting in a room deciding "hey, let's raise the price on [this] today."

[MadManiac21]

 

Coming from the perspective of being an Economics major, I think no one here should "market" statements or claims about what the meaning of the words value/worth/price of items are. I'm literally brought to tears by the butchering of these concepts and ideals, and even for the correct statements, the general public of TMD doesn't have a strong enough grasp of how Economics works to understand it, and most likely aren't going to waste their time trying to decipher your "business" lingo.

/econ terms

Plus, the question at hand is "Do traders feel guilty?" Bringing Economics into the picture is a bad idea, because there is no "nice guy/bad guy" view in Economics. There are equilibriums of trade and then there are dead weight losses (DWL) if people don't either drive up/down the price depending upon Qsupply and Qdemand. Economics doesn't care if you're "getting screwed" if you're within your budget contraints and able to obtain the neccessary goods to maintain your general welfare/status/happiness.

/end terms

If Timmy has a Black Lotus, but WANTS to play with Argothian Wurms, then as long as he fills his quotient of "Wurm" happiness from trading that Black Lotus....

Well, you get the picture.

Maybe I don't have a conscious, but the "ripoff" trade doesn't exist. If you walk out of the trade with what you wanted, YOU ARE THE WINNER. If you don't get what you want, then you most likely didn't finalize the trade and instead decided to keep your cards to trade another day.

[Samite Healer]

As with almost anything, there is a right way to do something and a wrong way to do something.  While I make a significant amount of money from buying and selling Magic cards, it remains my hobby so I try not to be a dick about things when a deal doesn't work out.  Most people that buy/sell/trade for a living often get frustrated when a deal goes south simply because that means they don't have money for dinner or a car payment, or whatever.

Raping someone insanely hard on a trade is bad not only because it feels morally wrong, but also because it is simply bad business.  The same kid who trades away a Black Lotus that his family bought him as a birthday gift for a Craw Wurm might be insanely happy at the time, but he will eventually find out the value of both halves of the deal.  This will leave quite a sour taste in his mouth, and will ultimately cause him not to deal with you in the future.  In addition, he may become skeptical of nearly all people that want to trade or decide that he himself wants to rip other people off because he was once ripped before --> I think we are a lot closer to this today than 2-3 years ago.

Having said this, I feel there are three instances in which I make trades heavily in my favor:


1) Trading away super-rare cards such as Japanese Foil staples, Summer Magic Cards, Misprints, Rarities, etc.

The key here is cost of replacement.  Several of these items may be VERY difficult to track down, if not impossible, because they are one-of-a-kind (cool misprints).  In addition, the cost of a rare item increases almost every time one is sold.  For example, every time a Japanese Foil Tinker (a rare card) is sold, there are essentially less on the market available to purchase because it is EXTREMELY likely that the person who just bought it will ever sell it in the not so distant future.

2) I am forced to take cards that I really don't want.

3) Personal cards that I don't ever want to get rid of that people keep badgering me about or make an insane offer that I can't turn down.


People often need to realize that dealers don't exist for the sole purpose of doing work for them.  If a a Mox Pearl retails for $300 and Sacred Foundry retails for $15, players need to understand that I don't necessarily want 20 Sacred Foundaries for my Mox Pearl, and shouldn't get upset when I decline their offer.

That basically means that I have to sit and sell 20 dual lands to get my $350 instead of selling a single card, which is terrible.  This leads to where every dealer is different (because of having different customer contacts, relationships, etc.) and the question becomes assuming I can sell Sacred Foundry at $15 and in infinite quantites, at what quantity of Sacred Foundaries receieved does it make the additional work I'm doing worth giving up my Mox Pearl?

In this hypothetical, I'd say 18 x $15 nets me an additional $45 which is worth putting in the extra time; however, I can't sell Sacred Foundry in Infinite quantities.  This is where the value of a dealer service comes in because it is highly likely that the average player can't sell 20 of them either.  Even if they could, they would have to sit and list multiple auctions and deal with all the other nonsense plus wait time.

As I said before, there is still a proper and respectful way to interact with people.  The only time I ever get snippy with a customer is if they are deliberately aggravating me or being a jackass in some way.  I have flat out told people that "some of my prices may be good, some might be terrible" and things usually work out in the end.  If I offer someone 50 cents for their Jareth, Leonin Titan and they cringe at me, that's cool because they probably know somewhere that they will get the same $1 or $1.50 that I will get too.


I don't feel guilty about deals that I've done because I think most people are relatively happy at the end of them.  Obviously some people aren't, but those generally seem to be the ones that are most insecure about things anyway.

[knickers]

I feel guilty starting to play the game!  :lol:

[Drathro]

Edit - sorry about Necro-ing a dead thread, but it was still on the 1st page, so it didn't occur to me to check the date.  I don't want to start a new thread just for this, but I do want to say it.

I posted a while back about a bad trading experience at Bob's Dual Land Draft, so I thought I would post a different experience I had at Kalidak's Dual Land Draft.  I avoided trading with the guys who weren't playing, just like I said I would, but one guy finally broke me down to look at his binder.  This time the trading went much better, and I ended up trading with several guys who were there just to trade.  My experience couldn't have been more different than last time.  I'm glad to know that there are traders/dealers worth trading with out there.

[emidln]

I've found that there really aren't many cards I want to trade for anymore. I randomly want to pimp or foil a deck and that is what makes dealers useful to me. Being able to go through a box of random foil commons, uncommons, and rares is useful to me. Being able to trade Beta stuff for Unlimited and cash is randomly useful. I think knowing and working with the dealer several times helps out quite a bit too. I've asked certain dealers to come up with random stuff in the past (NM Beta Stasis) and they name a price and can make the trade in a week or so. Even on hard to find stuff like Imperial Seals and Grim Tutors, I know several people who are easy to deal with and fair with their prices (I don't mind paying a finders fee if they take the time to find a high dollar rare, or something very uncommon for me).


As far as trading with other people, it's usually hard for me to trade. It isn't that I don't want to trade, it's that I normally can't find anything I'd need or want from others. If I can, I usually end up buying the card outright because its a crap foil or the person has sketchy values on my cards.

[Mr. Nightmare]

I'd have to agree with emidln here.  I basically suck at trading, because I don't even bother to find out what new cards are worth anymore.  Most of the time, kids look at my binders and want stuff that I could part with, but not for even close to what I want from them.  Right now, the only stuff I'd be looking for I'm not gonna find in some random kid's binder, so its barely worth going through it anyway.  For the most part, I'd usually rather just pay cash for cards, and be done with it.

As far as dealers go, there are only one or 2 in the area I'd actually deal with, and mostly at the end of the month when rent is coming due and their prices deflate from desparation.  Otherwise its eBay and random Magic Websites for me, and some you can snag a sweet deal from here and there.

[Smmenen]

Stuff

You know what your problem is? 

A) You care

b) you trade

Stop trading with people.  Do you really need cards that bad that you want to lower yourself to trading?

I don't trade.  I buy cards from shops and sell cards on ebay.  Period.   Trading is for people who like getting their hands dirty. 

[Smmenen]

Enron stock was trading accurately at the price the market valued it. It was just a case of the market as a whole not valuing it correctly (mostly in part of shady accouting and poor leadership.)

There's actually a lot wrong with this statement.  First of all, no stock ever trades based on people's acceptance of the market value as accurate.  No one ever buys or sells a stock because they think the prevailing market price is accurate; if they did, they would be making their purchasing decision in the hopes of breaking even and not in the expectation of profit.  Rather, purchase and sale decisions regarding securities (stocks, bonds, notes, debentures, futures, options, indentures, etc.) are made because the purchaser or seller believes there's an inaccuracy in the market price, and one they hope will allow them to profit.

There is alot wrong with these series of statements.

People invest in stocks because they believe it will provide them the greatest utility.  Generally, people derive utility from earning money and they believe that their money will see the greatest appreciation in value in stocks.  Otherwise they woudl invest in bonds, CDs, options, or some other asset like a house or even magic cards.  People invest in stocks all the time because they think the market price is accurate.  They just hope that the company is awesome and they'll make lots of money off it.  True, people also invest in stocks or money markets or currency or all kinds of other things because they think the market is inaccurate.  This is called Arbitrage and lots of rich people make tons of money off it.  But let's not pretend that people only invest in stocks because they think the markets are inaccurate.  That's blatently false.  If my money will get 8% return in Microsoft stock, that's a hell of alot better than 5% in treasury bonds.

[Whatever Works]

Stuff

You know what your problem is? 

A) You care

b) you trade

Stop trading with people.  Do you really need cards that bad that you want to lower yourself to trading?

I don't trade.  I buy cards from shops and sell cards on ebay.  Period.   Trading is for people who like getting their hands dirty. 

Well said. I rarely bring my trade binder with me to tournements anymore because I constantly get bugged to trade, and sometimes people take things out, and I look at there binder to see absolute crap.

There are a few people out there I know well who I will trade with because they are fair and efficent (Samite Healer is like this if you know him). However, for every good smooth transaction there are about 5+ hair pulling experiences where I end up saying... Can't I just go and buy this from you for X ammount outside?

Kyle L

[Razvan]

It's a min/max thing, more or less. You want to maximize what you get, and minimize what you give away.

For casual traders that move cards once a month, this is meaningless. Even if you get the best case scenario, in any deal, you'll be up, what... a few dollars? A hundred dollars every 20th deal, when you really trade big stuff? Really not more than that.

For people that trade daily, and by that I mean hundreds, if not a thousand trades a month, getting at least one dollar more on each trade is a way of life. That's hundreds, thousands of dollars.

To answer the question Travis asked, no, when could they feel guilty? When you do 1000 trades, do you even REMEMBER where you got things from? I think I remember I got my Ali from Cairo from gronx for a bunch of foils, that's about it, and I am not a big trader.

One more thing.

To chime in on the Masticore example from the binder, that is something that's a bit more hazy.

The guy that didn't want to trade the masticore was foolish, at best, idiotic at worst. He's probably the prototypical, my 10 morphlings are worth a piece of power, but my morphling isn't worth twice it's value in smaller cards.

There's really 4 settings you need as a good trader.

1) Everything needs to be for trade. Really. I mean everything. It doesn't matter. All the time.
2) Know the approximate average value of the card. If you can get $2 for a card, it's worth $2, and you want to trade it away as $3, and get it as $1.
3) Put in the work.
4) Combine the three above. Don't concern yourself with the Masticore being worth more than the other crap you wanted. I would trade a (I have no clue about prices) $20 masticore for $30 of playable small stuff any day. The $30 stuff can then become $40 without much trouble at all, and that's two masticores.

Keep in mind that no matter how much you pile the crap on, it's still crap. 200 crap rares aren't worth a time-twister. $300 worth of good rares is.

Again, I have no clue what prices are.

[Mr. Fantazy]

Can't I just go and buy this from you for X ammount outside?

This begs the question I thought when I first saw this topic. I'm not calling you out Kyle, you just happened to be the person who brought up players selling cards at events.

Do players ever feel guilty?

I'm not talking about trading cards as I'm a huge proponent of trading among players. I am, however, curious as to how players feel about themselves when they buy/sell cards to other players, or go outside to buy/sell cards. Stores are paying a huge amount of overhead to stock the products you want and provide playspace, at events dealers often pay large sums to have a table, up-wards of $700 at PT Honolulu for example. They are paying for the exclusive right to sell their wares.

I guess it feels much like theft of services to me. Someone else foots the bill while people take advantage of the situation for their own benefit. Everytime this happens a legitimate retailer loses sales, making the struggle to stay in business that much harder. Considering that, from Jan. 2004 through Dec 2005, 40% of game stores in the US have closed their doors, most of us need all the support we can get. Yes, I realize that people selling cards is not the main reason, but it sure doesn't help.

Do players place no value on the services and space provided by stores and events?

Is the difference in buy/sell price between retailers and other players not worth the space, time, and effort put in by retailers?

Keep in mind I'm talking about a situation where retailers are actively buying and selling.


-Shawn

[Juggernaut GO]

I see nothing wrong with going outside of the event venue to sell a card someone wants to buy.  Of course dealers pay to have their booth or whatever to sell their stock, but they are also selling that stock at insane markup prices. 

If I have a Mox I want to sell for 300 and the best the dealers will offer me is 225, then I am going to sell it to a private player who is willing to pay the full price.  The dealers can make their ridiculous profit off someone else.

Also, I don't think any store owner has any right to complain that players sell their own cards at their stores, expecially if the store itself doesn't have the cards being bought, or if they refuse to budge on a stupid high price put on a card.

I looked at trading in a drain to a store recently and was offered 65 cash for it, when I was already offered 80 from a friend.  Only an idiot would take 65 and not sell for the higher price.  It's not realistic to expect players to only buy from your store and not try to find a better deal, even if they are in YOUR store.

I almost bought my own card store last year, but I just could not see any profitability in the business of opening a store.  I asked around a bit and one of the most popular type 2 stores in my area that has players at it all weekend, with 1 single guy operating the store, no employees to pay, only netted a total 45k in 2004.

Who's fault is that?  Boxes of type 2 product are bought at around $66 and sold at $130.  Now who is ripping who off?  Don't expect any kind of sympathy when that kind of markup is placed on cardboard. 
 
It's nice to have stores to go to for tournaments, but don't expect that if stores close there will no longer be any more magic tournaments.  There are plenty of empty halls to rent out for big tournaments, as long as the prizes and the price is fair, people will come.

[Komatteru]

A general piece of advice when considering whether to break a rule or law someone else has set forth:

Rules and laws are made with a certain purpose in mind, and behind every law there is a Spirit.  The point is to obey the "spirit of the law."  Blatant disregard for law leads to anarchy and chaos, but laws are obviously not absolute -- as times change, the laws can become difficult to apply and therefore need be subjected to revision and reinterpretation every now and then.  Such new looks need keep in mind the spirit of the law and need to look for a new wording that better reflects the changed times yet preserves what the law was originally intending to do.  Ok, I'm done sounding trying to sound like a law student (I'm not one of THOSE, *gasp*) now.

The point of the "no buying or selling on the floor" rule is to prevent "backpack" dealers from coming in and undercutting the established dealers who are paying for the space to sell cards (which helps the TO pay for the whole enterprise).  In addition, established dealers are usually from stores, and they have set prices for cards because they have overhead to recoup, while backpack dealers have none of that.  That's the idea behind the rule.  So, if you don't find that selling one Mox to a friend outside violates the spirit, then go for it.  However, don't be surprised if you are punished for your violation because the person in charge interprets the rule more strictly.

[Mr. Fantazy]

The dealers can make their ridiculous profit off someone else.

A 25% markup is hardly ridiculous, let alone the fact that it's not even profit. Profit isn't seen until an item sells, then all associated costs are subtracted from the selling price. If there is a positive difference, then a profit has been made. If you've actually looked into starting a small business then you know that such a venture needs to make around a 40% markup, minimum, to remain viable.

Also, I don't think any store owner has any right to complain that players sell their own cards at their stores, especially if the store itself doesn't have the cards being bought, or if they refuse to budge on a stupid high price put on a card.

So actually no one should complain when the bandwidth for their website gets used up by people linking to their images without permission, or paying? Of course it will be fine with the used car lot owner when you pull up and start selling your car on his lot to his customers, right? I mean, hell, he won't pay you what you want, and will actually sell it for more then he paid for it. Who the hell is he to complain that you are using space he's paying for, selling to the customers he worked and paid for advertising etc. to get them on the lot. I wonder if you will or do feel the same when someone benefits at your expense.
You always have the option to not patronize a store if they don't deal with you fairly, or don't carry the products you want, but that hardly gives you the right to set up shop in their store. I doubt that you would go into your tax man's office and start soliciting his customers, and I doubt that you would be shocked that you were asked to leave if you did. Maybe you don't view game stores or the owners with the basic respect you most likely show other business.

I looked at trading in a drain to a store recently and was offered 65 cash for it, when I was already offered 80 from a friend.  Only an idiot would take 65 and not sell for the higher price.  It's not realistic to expect players to only buy from your store and not try to find a better deal, even if they are in YOUR store.

I never said people should only buy from my store or anyone else's. What I was asking is if there is a value to the "extras" that are provided by retailers. If I understand you correctly, it's unrealistic that players should show the common courtesy and respect that they show to just about everyother business they deal with, and it would be idiotic for someone to except less for or pay more then they could expect from a private deal. My first thought is that there is no value on play space, organized play, a place to meet your friends and hang out, or being able to buy and sell cards right now. My second thought is that you actually do see a value to it, by using someone else's time, effort, and money, you can benefit and they should just shut up and deal with it. WOW.

I almost bought my own card store last year, but I just could not see any profitability in the business of opening a store.  I asked around a bit and one of the most popular type 2 stores in my area that has players at it all weekend, with 1 single guy operating the store, no employees to pay, only netted a total 45k in 2004.

Most of us don't do this to be rich. We love gaming, and hope to be able to pay the bills by doing something we love. BTW I guess that store owner wasn't making ridiculous profit.

Who's fault is that?  Boxes of type 2 product are bought at around $66 and sold at $130.  Now who is ripping who off?  Don't expect any kind of sympathy when that kind of markup is placed on cardboard.

First off it depends, on if your talking single pack prices or box prices. Generally stores will give discounts on boxes, if they don't, don't buy it there. Selling individual packs at standard retail is not a sin, nor is it ripping people off. Not giving a large purchase some kind of discount or perk may not be good business, but it isn't ripping you off either. Each owner decides what they can sustain and what breaks they can or are willing to give.
Second, I didn't ask for nor do I want or need your sympathy.

It's nice to have stores to go to for tournaments, but don't expect that if stores close there will no longer be any more magic tournaments.  There are plenty of empty halls to rent out for big tournaments, as long as the prizes and the price is fair, people will come.

If stores close don't expect anyone to be renting any empty halls for any more magic tournaments, WotC as well as almost every other game manufacturer, not to mention everything else that is produced to be sold, lives by the fact that stores sell their product. Organized Play is little more then an advertising outlet for their product.

-Shawn

[Jacob Orlove]

Technically, thanks to Magic Online, Wizards doesn't need stores to sell cards. However, the real problem is that the internet lets people buy cards even if the local shop closes down, which means stores have to do a lot more than just sell cards if they want to stay in business.

[freakish777]

Seeing as how the buy/sell in a store issue has come up, I have to agree with Mr. Fantazy.

I do my fair share of trading, and I sell to my friends and their friends when we're not in stores.

I would under no circumstances buy/sell in a store that wasn't mine unless I had express permission from the owner.  Wizards does need stores, because Magic has a very "grassroots" feel to it.  Without card stores Magic loses:

A place for the casual gamer to buy cards.
A place for the casual gamer to become more involved in the game via tournaments.

Essentially everyone got into Magic because they saw someone else playing it (a friend), thought it looked interesting and decided to get into it.  However, when you first decided to get into Magic did you and purchase cards (specifically booster packs):

A) Go to your local card shop with your friends and buy cards
B) Go to an online store and buy cards
C) Buy cards on eBay

Stores, aside from providing a venue to play at (most stores provide this service free of charge, you want to show up on Saturday with a casual deck and find someone to play against, they're not going to charge you $X/hour because they hope you'll buy something and having people walk in their doors is essentially promoting their product), also provide community.

Anyways, it's late so this may not be fully coherent.

[Mr. Fantazy]

Actually I have noticed that while MTGO may have stopped a few guys from buying packs, those same people have picked up their singles sales as they now test and fine tune on line.

Internet sales are a whole different kettle of fish, and are a major contributor to the decline of game stores. I hadn't mentioned that here because we are strictly talking about at events and/or stores. Internet dealers are a hot topic in the industry these days, as they cannibalize the industry in all three major categories, CCG, CMG, and publishing (RPG's and Board Games).

Very few manufacturers or distributors will sell product to someone who does not have a Brick and Mortar Store, with distributors particularly at risk, since doing so is generally a violation of their contract with the manufacturer. No company wants to see their product devalued to such extents. But this has more to do with new product rather than the secondary market.

You are correct that stores do need to do more than just sell cards. I had presumed we were talking about full fledged game stores that carry a wide array of products in all three categories plus various accessories, sleeves, dice, mats etc. as well as many impulse items, since most stores that only dealt with cards are gone.

So if a store carries a full range of product, offers OP and free play space, what more should they do? This is why I asked if players see a value to these things, which no one has actually addressed yet.

-Shawn

[Juggernaut GO]

The value you get from people being in your store is the 2-5$ per person you profit on the tournament entries, or the packs they buy when a group of friends decide to draft.  Additional ways you make money just by having people in your store: Selling food and drinks at a healthy profit.  Your expected value is your customers.  Your the store, they are there to buy and play magic or whatever game they are playing.  What more do you expect? 

I never said people should only buy from my store or anyone else's. What I was asking is if there is a value to the "extras" that are provided by retailers. If I understand you correctly, it's unrealistic that players should show the common courtesy and respect that they show to just about everyother business they deal with, and it would be idiotic for someone to except less for or pay more then they could expect from a private deal. My first thought is that there is no value on play space, organized play, a place to meet your friends and hang out, or being able to buy and sell cards right now. My second thought is that you actually do see a value to it, by using someone else's time, effort, and money, you can benefit and They should just shut up and deal with it. WOW.

Yes, I think it is a waste of time to complain about something you have no control over at all.  If you don't like people buying or selling a card at your store, post a sign saying that you'll be kicked out if your caught.  If they break the rules, then they should face the consequences.  But, it doesn't stop me from saying I think the rule of no buying or selling is horseshit to begin with, expecially when the store intends to lowball everyone they buy from.  And of course it always comes down to the individual, if they are happy with a transaction where they are losing a lot of money, then that is fine.  But that will never stop me from doing what I want with my own cards.  I sold all my power cards twice now since last year, sometimes I found private buyers at tournaments, sometimes I sold to dealers, but I always got what I wanted for my cards either way.

Most of us don't do this to be rich. We love gaming, and hope to be able to pay the bills by doing something we love.

Loving the game and having fun playing it is fine, there are plenty of ways to enjoy it rather then making money off it.  Playing in tournaments is #1.  Your entire complaint is about how you think store owners are being treated unfairly because they don't get anything for the "extras" they provide the customers, indicating that you are unhappy about not making enough money running the store.

BTW I guess that store owner wasn't making ridiculous profit.

He was making an insane profit compared to his actual cost to buy the products.  The total net income however, was not worth dealing with 12 year olds all week and working 10 hour days 7 days a week.

If stores close don't expect anyone to be renting any empty halls for any more magic tournaments, WotC as well as almost every other game manufacturer, not to mention everything else that is produced to be sold, lives by the fact that stores sell their product. Organized Play is little more then an advertising outlet for their product.

Maybe t1 tournaments are only store based in California, but in other parts of the country where Vintage is more popular, its not uncommon to see halls rented out every month for tournaments.  Waterbury alone is 4 times a year in a rented hotel ballroom, Star City runs its Richmond tournaments at the convention center.

[Mr. Fantazy]

Apparently there is a lack of understanding between us.

Since you seem so hostile, let put this a way you can understand it.

I wasn't complaining. I asked a simple question about what value players place on extras provided by a store. Not what my value to having players in my store is worth to me. If I don't already know that I'll soon be out of business. Apparently you are unable or unwilling to address the question.
Please stop trying to turn my question into some kind of soapbox for yourself.

No one said you shouldn't or couldn't say what you want.
No one said you shouldn't get what you want with your cards.
No one said you can't think what you want about a rule or law.
No one, except you, has complained about being treated unfairly, or not getting paid for extras.

I did ask: Do players place no value on the services and space provided by stores and events?

I did ask: Is the difference in buy/sell price between retailers and other players not worth the space, time, and effort put in by retailers?

I did ask: So if a store carries a full range of product, offers OP and free play space, what more should they do?

Are you unable or unwilling to answer those questions. I'm sure that spouting off things unsaid and trying to make people look bad, helps your self esteem issues or something, but it really just makes you look like an angry little child.

I'm sure if you reread my posts, or at least have someone explain them to you, you'll find I was asking a genuine question in a respectful manner. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to work for you, too bad.

Perhaps someday you'll understand that I never said you should do this or they shouldn't do that, I stated how I felt about a situation, stated a couple of factual statistics and asked a couple of questions.

As for me being unhappy, I'm not the one twisting others words so I can huff and puff about how I'll do what I want. I happen to be in the greatest business on earth, for me, I wake up everyday very satisfied with what I do and how I do it, it's a little presumptuous of you to think I'm unhappy considering your attitude. Everyone didn't have their Wheaties pissed in this morning. I'm really not sure how asking you what value you place on a service is complaining and how you can extrapolate from such a question that I'm unhappy with my lifestyle, or presume to tell me how to enjoy one of the many games I play.

When you grow up and can hold a reasonable conversation, let me know. I asked an honest question, that when you asked it while pointing at dealers was just fine, but when pointed at you, becomes a bunch of complaining.

whatever

-Shawn

[Klep]

But, it doesn't stop me from saying I think the rule of no buying or selling is horseshit to begin with, expecially when the store intends to lowball everyone they buy from. 

I don't think it's unreasonable for a store to expect it shouldn't have to provide free retail space to its competition.  We don't see McDonalds letting Burger King set up shop in their foyers, so why should card stores allow other dealers to buy and sell in theirs?

So the store intends to lowball everyone.  Big deal.  No one said you had to sell to the store.  You can always find a dealer on your own, or sell on eBay.  But the store's space is the store's space.  If they want to have a monopoly on the buying and selling going on in the store's space, that's their perogative and their right.  As much as I <3 Samite, for example, he doesn't pay any of the rent for Star City or Pastimes or what have you, and so he doesn't get to set the rules.

[Mr. Nightmare]

I did ask: Do players place no value on the services and space provided by stores and events?

I did ask: Is the difference in buy/sell price between retailers and other players not worth the space, time, and effort put in by retailers?

I did ask: So if a store carries a full range of product, offers OP and free play space, what more should they do?

Since no one else seems willing to answer these questions, I think I'll have a go.

1) Yes.  I place a value on the services and space provided by a store.  I feel this is partly paid for by my entryfee, as well as my continuing patronage to the store.  There are many times when I need specific cards which they have in stock, and because of ease, I buy from the store.  This also contributes in part, to my thanks.

2) Although the wording makes this difficult to answer, I'll try.  In short, no.  The difference in price between retailers and other players is not worth the space, time, and effort in some instances.  For many cards in the store, the prices can be so skewed that it is 100% not worth it to purchase cards from the store, when I know I could buy the same card from another player or from eBay for literally half the price.  Other times it is. 

3) I'm not asking for anything else.  Well, I am.  I'm asking for a little slack.  Understand that even if you have a full range of product, you don't have everything I need.  In my local store, dual lands are priced at 28 for Plateaus, with blue duals closer to 40.  They sell them, too.  But not to me.  If I know someone who's willing to step outside (and not right outside the door, to throw it in the face of the store employees) and sell me FBB Tundras for 60, why shouldn't I want to take that deal?  Especially if I wouldn't see this person outside a large event?  Should I be banned from the store or asked to leave for this?  Maybe.  But I don't see how this is taking profit away from the store, or even why I'm supposed to feel guilty for it.

[Juggernaut GO]

Just because I refuted every single one of your points does not make me an angry child.  Your not going to get anyone to answer your questions the way you want to hear it, because not many dealers post on TMD.  I will answer all 3 a little bit more clearly in numbered order.

I did ask: Do players place no value on the services and space provided by stores and events?

I did ask: Is the difference in buy/sell price between retailers and other players not worth the space, time, and effort put in by retailers?

I did ask: So if a store carries a full range of product, offers OP and free play space, what more should they do?

1:I place no additional value on stores other then what I pay in entry fees.  If I ever want a card from a store, I have Hatcher pick it up for me.

2:The difference in price is fine for the people who are OK with paying it.  This doesn't stop me from pointing out that the prices are marked up beyond a reasonable amount in a lot of instances, and buying or selling to or from another player when he has a card I want at the right price.

3:There is nothing more you can do, except do better advertising.  No one in this thread asked magic dealers to do more, it started with an ethical question about if they feel guilty with the amount they buy/sell at.  You turned it around to ask the players the same about selling cards.  I gave you my answer and you went off the deep end in defense of your values.

If you ask the magic community for their opinions, don't get bent when they say something you don't want to hear.  Just move on.

[orgcandman]

I did ask: Do players place no value on the services and space provided by stores and events?

I did ask: Is the difference in buy/sell price between retailers and other players not worth the space, time, and effort put in by retailers?

I did ask: So if a store carries a full range of product, offers OP and free play space, what more should they do?

Travis, I'm gonna address your comments one at a time because they're the same comments I hear / read over and over again, and represent a fundamental misunderstanding about the consumer / producer nature of business.

1:I place no additional value on stores other then what I pay in entry fees.  If I ever want a card from a store, I have Hatcher pick it up for me.

While _you_ may not place additional value beyond what you pay, you shouldn't be so dismissive of any inherent value that may be present.
For a store owner who runs a tournament the following expression must be true, otherwise, you'll no longer have as many stores.

  Daily Take In + Daily Expenses > 0

  Following this equation, if a store daily does $500 in business, and has $100 in operating costs, that's $400 daily the store nets. This doesn't factor in the cost of product, or cost of employees. Add in 8 hours of an employee, even at minimum wage, and the cost of that $500 in product, and you're looking at closer to $340+, which leaves the store with about $160 on the day. Not so great, but translates into around $56k profit per year. That's being open year round apart from major holidays, just doing business.
  Now, look at a tournament. Operating expense + cost of tournament prizes + cost of employees + take in HAS to be > 0 for that to be run. If everyone JUST showed up, and JUST paid for entry, and JUST walked away with prizes, no other money being spent, stores would be losing money on the day.
  If a store (or any entity) is losing money then it follows they'll either stop the monetary bleeding (by stopping whatever action is causing the bleed; in this case tournaments) or they'll go out of business. Either way, that leads to less tournaments. Unless you're willing to take the risk that you can turn a profit running tournaments (remember, same equation: operating expenses + cost of prizes + cost of staffing + take in > 0).

So, the value added is the willingness to risk monetary loss.

As a real world example, lets look at a recent tournament held by Myriad Games. I'm not sure what the building operation expenses are, but

-$100 (cost of building operations) +
-$40 (cost of employee 1 for 8 hours at minimum wage) +
-$40 (cost of employee 2 for 8 hours at minimum wage) +
-$250 (mox) +
-$60 (drain) +
-$30 (3rd and 4th prizes) +
-$25 (5-8 prizes) +
-$40 (door prizes, cookies, etc.)
+ $660 (entry fees of $20 per person) > 0 ?

Sure, it's a total of $75 in profit. Or, less than 1/2 of what I put forth in my original statement of the "average" daily intake of a store. This means that on days that a store runs a tournament, the return is as though they've only operated for 1/2 a day. Note that they won't get as many normal sales on that day, due to the store being filled with players. Also, that list doesn't take into account the fact that the employees were probably getting paid more than minimum, AND that the time for the tournament went for over 8 hours (which could potentially be getting into overtime pay etc..). So, even if the store "breaks even" on the day (which means no profit and no loss) it still actually loses $160. This is something that econ majors should definately understand.

2:The difference in price is fine for the people who are OK with paying it.  This doesn't stop me from pointing out that the prices are marked up beyond a reasonable amount in a lot of instances, and buying or selling to or from another player when he has a card I want at the right price.

The people paying for the price difference are paying for a lot of things. They're paying for convenience, mostly. Store is nearby? Oh, isn't that CONVENIENT! Store has what you're looking for? Wow! Convenient! Store gives you an implicit assurance that they will guarantee satisfaction? Convenient! You may have a special circumstance where you have access to every card ever printed or slated to be printed, but that is a convenience that the vast majority of magic players won't have access to. That's the reason you see things as being so unreasonably marked. "Ohh, selling rav. duals at $20? Well, [insert dealer friend name] gets them for $10, which means the markup is 100%. Outrageous!"

3:There is nothing more you can do, except do better advertising.  No one in this thread asked magic dealers to do more, it started with an ethical question about if they feel guilty with the amount they buy/sell at.  You turned it around to ask the players the same about selling cards.

Why would any person feel guilty about making a sale?

I gave you my answer and you went off the deep end in defense of your values.
[/qupte]
Well, the thread basically says "If you're a dealer, you're ripping people off. How can you live with yourself?" Were I a dealer, I think I'd probably react the same way.

[Mr. Fantazy]

First off thanks Mr. Nightmare, your answers are insightful.

1) Yes.  I place a value on the services and space provided by a store.  I feel this is partly paid for by my entryfee, as well as my continuing patronage to the store.  There are many times when I need specific cards which they have in stock, and because of ease, I buy from the store.  This also contributes in part, to my thanks.

A reasonable response. So let me ask this. You have two stores nearby, Store has play space and OP. Store B does none of this but their packs are $1 cheaper, and sometimes they have random singles that are also a little cheaper than store A. Which store do you buy from? Does $1 a pack, and $1 more per $5 single matter to you?

2) Although the wording makes this difficult to answer, I'll try.  In short, no.  The difference in price between retailers and other players is not worth the space, time, and effort in some instances.  For many cards in the store, the prices can be so skewed that it is 100% not worth it to purchase cards from the store, when I know I could buy the same card from another player or from eBay for literally half the price.  Other times it is.

Is there a difference in price between ebay and the store that would make spending more OK. For example if the store was say $1 higher than ebay per $20 value, is that OK? What about $2? Where is it that the difference becomes an issue? On older cards, like power, where there is a big issues of fakes, ripping, etc., how much more, if anything, is it worth to be sure about your purchase?

3) I'm not asking for anything else.  Well, I am.  I'm asking for a little slack.  Understand that even if you have a full range of product, you don't have everything I need.  In my local store, dual lands are priced at 28 for Plateaus, with blue duals closer to 40.  They sell them, too.  But not to me.  If I know someone who's willing to step outside (and not right outside the door, to throw it in the face of the store employees) and sell me FBB Tundras for 60, why shouldn't I want to take that deal?  Especially if I wouldn't see this person outside a large event?  Should I be banned from the store or asked to leave for this?  Maybe.  But I don't see how this is taking profit away from the store, or even why I'm supposed to feel guilty for it.

Sure it is impossible to carry every single item a customer wants. Damn those are some high prices for duals! Mine run $18- $22 and $25-$30. There is nothing wrong for wanting a better deal, hell, that's something we're all looking for. As for if you should be banned or ejected from the area is totally the owners call and each of us deal with it different. I suppose it depends on how large a problem it is at that place and the owners attitude.
On your last point;
Let's look at this way. You are going to your local store and are bringing $80 that you plan on spending for a dual, lunch and snacks etc. You get to the store and find that the dual you want is being sold at $40, which is more then you want to pay for it. You start playing and someone has a FBB dual that he will give you for $60 so you go ahead and buy it from him, you spent more than you wanted but got a great deal. So during the day you have lunch and stuff which probably ran about $10 leaving you with $10. Toward the end of the day you start looking around to see if there's anything you want. Your sleeves are fairly new, you have a life counter, you're not interested in boosters, but hey that playmat is kinda cool, oh wait it's $12, can't get that. Then there's the new t-shirts that just came in, oh wait they're $15, can't get it. Oh well, maybe next time.
The store had 3 items you were interested in, one was not at a price you were willing to pay, which is fine, but two of those items were at prices you were willing to pay, but couldn't because of the FBB deal. You would have bought any one of those items, possibly two of them, and I would have had a chance to cut a deal to get you all three. However, because someone who has no overhead, no risk, and no investment in the community, thought they should just take advantage of the situation, the store sold nothing.
What would have happened if you had went to the owner and pointed out that he didn't have a FBB dual but this guy does, can I buy it and flip you a couple bucks?
I'm not saying you should feel guilty, I'm trying to figure out what the players are thinking.


@Klep

Well said

@JuggernautGO

I'm not sure what you're problem is but F**in chill. You haven't refuted anything, it was a question, you can refute theories, answers, opinions, all kind of things, but, you answer questions, or don't as the case maybe. I didn't say you were an angry child, I said your post made you sound like an angry child, notice the difference?

Your not going to get anyone to answer your questions the way you want to hear it, because not many dealers post on TMD.

So you're saying no one on TMD can answer a question honestly and with a little thought, how nice of you to speak for everyone, I'm sure they appreciate it. If you notice I asked PLAYERS what they thought, what that has to do with what dealers have to say is beyond me.
I'm not sure if you're just plain stupid, lack basic comprehension skills, or just have something irritating stuck in your ass, but IMO, you are a poor example of a full user on these boards, at least concerning this thread since I asked a question, following the posting rules and everything, which in regards to you, I'm pretty close to being done with.

1:I place no additional value on stores other then what I pay in entry fees.  If I ever want a card from a store, I have Hatcher pick it up for me.

Fair enough. See you actually answered something straight forward and I didn't give you a bunch of crap. Treat me respectful and I'll treat you the same.

2:The difference in price is fine for the people who are OK with paying it.  This doesn't stop me from pointing out that the prices are marked up beyond a reasonable amount in a lot of instances, and buying or selling to or from another player when he has a card I want at the right price.

Absolutely, no one should buy or sell at a price they are not comfortable with. From the tone of your answer I'll guess that most of the time your store is usually within reasonable prices for singles and occasionally they have a price that is not. I see no problem with players giving honest feedback about prices. I personally deal with singles from over 7 different games, I try very hard to keep the prices within acceptable ranges, but occasionally some slip through. I have players who let me know if a price is out of line, which gives me a chance to research that card real quick and adjust if needed. Sometimes they're correct and sometimes they're not. I have always viewed this as helpful information, as it will often help me know when new tech is about to make a card suddenly hot or suddenly cold.

3:There is nothing more you can do, except do better advertising.  No one in this thread asked magic dealers to do more, it started with an ethical question about if they feel guilty with the amount they buy/sell at.  You turned it around to ask the players the same about selling cards.  I gave you my answer and you went off the deep end in defense of your values.

Yes advertising is key, even more so the correct forms of advertising, since traditional marketing methods are not effective in this industry.
Actually Jacob said stores need to do more than just sell cards, which I agreed with, then asked what other things stores should be doing.
Yes I noticed that when you point your ethics at dealers it's all well and good but when they get pointed back at you you're not so happy. Once again let me correct you, I asked if players feel guilty about selling stuff in side a store or at an event where legitimate dealers have paid for the right to sell cards to the players. I replied to you in the same, but more mature, tone that you replied to me, and will continue to do so.

If you ask the magic community for their opinions, don't get bent when they say something you don't want to hear.  Just move on.

Well when you actually gave a relevant opinion, as in an opinion that actually addresses the question, I answered you in a respectful manner. When you respond like an ass, I'll answer in the manner an ass deserves. I'll move on when I'm damn good and ready or the powers that be decide I should.

@orgcandman

I was trying to avoid the Store Economics 101 lesson but it probably need to be done. I really am just looking to see where the players thoughts are or if they've even really given it any thought. No one should feel anymore guilty about selling their cards anymore then they would about drawing pictures or making music and selling them out of their house. However I doubt that many of them would consider it appropriate to go over to Virgin Records, or the County Fair and set up shop and start selling their stuff. It's an interesting mentality which I'm trying to understand, and hopefully help fine tune my business model to be more attractive to players while remaining viable. Unfortunately thats more then some people can handle apparently.

-Shawn

[Jacob Orlove]

Debating the ethics of these issues is fine, but personal insults are not acceptable. Verbal warning to Mr. Fantazy, and I don't want to see any more flames in this thread.

[Moxlotus]

I have a different ethical question that is related to what is being discussed:

What are your opinions of players selling cards the store doesn't have while in a store?  Lots of stores don't have tons of singles--especially Type 1 singles like moxen, shops, bazaars, drains, grims, etc.  Do you think most store owners get upset over selling things--even if they don't have it?