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Author Topic: [Card discussion] 'Castigate' from guildpact  (Read 15202 times)
Harlequin
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« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2006, 11:47:05 am »

I just thought of something else, Purhapse squeezing in 4 of the black Leylines into the sideboard would be a good addition to the deck.

It is basically an opening hand GG against those graveyard based decks.

-1 shadow
-1 sacrede ground
-2 tormods

+4 black leyline
...
Assumeing you have 4 in a 60 card deck, and you auto-paris to 6 if you do not have a leyline in your opening hand you have about a 60% chance to turn 0 a leyline.
it works out like this: all numbers are aprox

40% chance to draw 1 or more in your opening hand (60% chance not to)
35% chance to draw 1 or more in your 6 card paris hand
therefore total prob = .40+.60*.35 = aprox .61
« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 11:55:11 am by Harlequin » Logged

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Guli
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« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2006, 12:08:53 pm »

Yea and i can always hardcast it turn 2 or 3 with rituals or moxes. Would be kinda cool to use another card from Guildpact
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Harlequin
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« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2006, 12:22:24 pm »

Definately go "All in" if your considering it.  4 or 0.

If you auto-paris to 6 then to 5 if you see no leylines in your opening two hands you have almost a 75% chance to find one on or before the five hand. on the 5 hand its 30% chance to find one.
therefor  40+.60*.35 +.60*.65*.30 = about .73


Keep in mind this is not the same as saying that your prob increases with each failure... the 75% chance is starting with the shuffled 60 cards deck and going suffle draw 7 - If yes > keep: else >shuffle draw 6 - If yes > keep: else shuffle draw 5 > Keep.  that total event will end in successfully finding a leyline 3 out of 4 times.  whether or not your hand is playable after you drop the line... is a totally different story
On the same note it also doenst count hands that are Land, land, tutor, darkrit.... wich would be totally keepable
« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 12:29:24 pm by Harlequin » Logged

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« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2006, 12:38:18 pm »

I don't see any tutors on your recent list. I know Harlequin recommended Enlightened Tutor but why not take advantage of Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal as well?

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« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2006, 12:42:19 pm »

good call, so the tutor plan is out, but it you still cant neglect the 75% chance to win the game on turn 0
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« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2006, 01:12:24 pm »

I don't see any tutors on your recent list. I know Harlequin recommended Enlightened Tutor but why not take advantage of Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal as well?


What would you cut
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« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2006, 01:37:20 pm »

What would you cut

-1 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Darkblast
-1 Decree of Justice
-1 Castigate ~OR~ Shadow of Doubt

+1 Demonic Tutor
+1 Vampiric Tutor
+1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Imperial Seal

I think this set up will allow you to get to your silver bullets faster without dropping any card entirely.

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« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2006, 04:03:57 pm »

The answer might be in the first page of this thread. Maybe this appoach is simply wrong and cheap creatures that pressure the opponent aswell with their abilities is the correct way to handle the win condition.

I really think this is where this decks needs to be. While you are applying hand disruption, you need to have threats on the board so they are trying to fight 2 battles (1 against the hand disruption and 1 against the hoard of 2/x's beating on them.) Plus the utility of the critters fill other roles (ie: Withered Wretch takes the place of a threat and Tormad's Leyline and Dark Confidant takes the place of a threat and card drawing etc.)

I know you played 30 games with the Angel control, why don't you try 30 games with the aggro/control version we came up with in beginning and see how that does. (I would cut the skeletals with Dark Confidant and no Angels.)
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zeus-online
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« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2006, 04:57:27 pm »

.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 01:50:15 pm by zeus-online » Logged

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« Reply #69 on: February 15, 2006, 06:39:55 pm »

Honestly, I'm not sure this deck could win a major tourney.  But in a smaller, less developed meta, it might riegn supreme.  Meta's that arnt on the cutting edge of deck innovation tend to be full of G G/R R or W stompy/control plus a heavy splash of combo.  Along with decks that cycled out of extended (rock-esq type decks).  This deck Would be able to take advantage of new cards in innovative ways, and could easily sweep a less developed meta. 
I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is totally impossible for this deck to win a major tourny, Esp when you look at the "left field" decks that win tournies.  The one thing that ties all winning decks together is that they are carefully tested, trimmed down, beefed up, and hoaned in on haveing the very best cards it can find to fit the play style and tempo that is desired.
Good luck testing this deck, I would be interested in what you find in testing it at a tournement level. 
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Guli
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« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2006, 04:02:15 am »

I'm not saying the tactic cant work, im just pretty sure the deck shouldnt be playing a Control role since it cant really deal with threats the way other decks can...sure it can plov a creature, but its rather dificult to plov a Gifts ungiven Wink

/Zeus

You honostly think this deck would lose to giftsso easily? Smile

4 Duress
4 Castigate
3 Shadow of Doubt
2 Orim's Chant

and game 2

Negator
Crypt
another SOD
Null rod

If anybody is interested i have the deck on my workstation and we could meet with msn or something. PM me if someone wanna test with me
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« Reply #71 on: February 16, 2006, 06:42:14 am »

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Guli
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« Reply #72 on: February 16, 2006, 09:13:56 am »

That is a good idea actually but 1 CoW is random and more would take up important slots in the maindeck. Every card has to be viable not only usefull.

The early disruption forces the opponent to go topdeck mode. SOD and ORIM are there to prevent things like Tinker/Will/Demonic/Vampiric/Gifts/...

So this deck HAS counters but in a different way. There are holes in my net of control i agree. And a clever player will get trough but not always.

Look i think it is time for me to test this in action and then reply. I honostly have to learn to play with this deck. A lot of the time we all say theroretical things and sometimes they are simply wrong and in real game it simply is different. I feel i have a strong deck with cheap answers to heavy threats. I feel i will never get full control of the game but i will seriously damage my opponents gameplan and take advantage of that. I slowly am accepting negators are needed at least 2 main deck and 2 Sideboard. So what if i have to sac some permanents. Maybe i should add crucible and negator and sac land if needed and play with 4 negators. With 4 STP and 2 Darkblast i can clear my way against aggro. A negator can also be used as defence btw. I should use Seal of cleansing i think

The negator proposal coming from 49 cents is interesting but the deck needs more permanents to sac in case it is needed. Moxes/land/seal/
Anyway i want to answer your argument about killing him fast. I agree and the negator can do that. How can we make this deck more suitable for the Negator. Do we keep angels? The angel/Necro combo is very strong
Maybe add a blue mox (can be used for SOD) and just maybe splash in that blue again with Recall and Timewalk + 1 island

There is another interesting card i am sure it was discussed a while ago in a topic.

"Hatching Plans"
Info:  Color = Blue      Type = Enchantment           Cost = 1U       Edition =  Guildpact (GP)
When Hatching Plans is put into a graveyard from play, draw three cards.

It is also blue and i don't want to add blue but yea i wanted to mention it. Maybe in some other deck.

Ok euhm ignore the last part of my text, i was trying to say that this deck has ways to stop big threats but there are ways to work around that for the enemy player but how big is that window? I say that hole is mostly luck based (what is he going to draw?). Another thing i said is to speed up the kill with negators.
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Guli
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« Reply #73 on: February 17, 2006, 02:47:22 pm »

updated
« Last Edit: February 17, 2006, 04:38:35 pm by Guli » Logged

zeus-online
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« Reply #74 on: February 17, 2006, 02:55:15 pm »

Spirit link? Seriosly? What are you going to use that for? I cant think of any reason to play that card..

I would rather see some kataki's in that slot....
3 plains also seems like a bit much.

Btw. why arent you playing strips? That way the two spirit link slots could go to crucibles.

/Zeus
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Guli
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« Reply #75 on: February 17, 2006, 03:23:02 pm »

Well my thoughts were:

spirit link on a dark confident would be nice
spirit link on any of my creatures + necro
spirit link against oath or DC
it is a permanent (Negator)
it can be tutored with both tutors
it is cheap
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Guli
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« Reply #76 on: February 17, 2006, 03:24:24 pm »

I added 1 COW and removed 1 Dark Confidant

I added back the angels and removed Spirit Link
« Last Edit: February 17, 2006, 03:47:44 pm by Guli » Logged

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« Reply #77 on: February 17, 2006, 04:17:05 pm »

Spirit Link is a very situational piece of utility.  It can save you from dieing from any Oath creatures or a Darksteel Colossus.  This only works of course if you have a greater life total then the power of the creature (ex. attach it to a Colossus, you have to be at 12 life or above).  Other than those reasons it is a pretty bad card as most win conditions, either have a non-damage win condition or will just get rid of the creature with the spirit link and precede to win.

As powerful as Yawgmoth's Will is, I don't see it being a real game breaker in this deck.  The most I see Yawgmoth's Will doing is getting a killed creature back, or playing duress again.  And You don't have as much mana sources to abuse it with to really go broken as other decks like Gifts and Slaver do in the ways of Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, all 5 Moxen, and Sol Ring.

As cool as I think Shadow of Doubt is, I don't believe that it should be played in this circumstance.  The BB casting cost is not friendly to your manabase and it is a very situational piece.  I think it should be cut for something that is already proven to be good.  Probably adding another Crucible or maybe a 4th Dark Confidant.
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Guli
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« Reply #78 on: February 17, 2006, 04:37:33 pm »

New Version B W aggro control

4 Duress
4 Castigate
2 Pithing Needle

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

3 Dark Confidant
4 Withered Wretch
3 Phyrexian Negator

1 Necropotence
1 yawgmoth's Will

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

3 Cursed Scroll
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Seal of Cleansing


4 Dark Ritual
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
3 Swamp
4 Scrubland
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black lotus
1 Sol ring
« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 01:54:57 pm by Guli » Logged

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« Reply #79 on: February 18, 2006, 02:34:22 pm »

I'm wondering if this has been tested against type 1 decks yet. I am fairly interested in the idea of B/W control in vintage. I fear it will be too slow though. What about a random Mind Twist, not helping the whole slow problem but major disruption. Also I would up the swords count to four as I feel that is a main utility piece for the deck.

Neat idea
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Guli
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« Reply #80 on: February 22, 2006, 01:34:05 pm »

See update in the last list

-2 Exalted angel
-1 Darkblast
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-2 Null rod


+2 Pithing Needle
+3 Cursed Scroll


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Zombie Shakespeare
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« Reply #81 on: February 22, 2006, 01:43:55 pm »

See update in the last list

-2 Exalted angel
-1 Darkblast
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-2 Null rod

+2 Pithing Needle
+3 Cursed Scroll


You've taken out 6 and only added 5 cards back in. Is this correct? I believe that takes you to only 59 cards in the main.

What have you been testing the deck against? How has it done in each match up? How has Castigate been overall?

thanks for posting,

ZS
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« Reply #82 on: February 22, 2006, 01:51:55 pm »

ah lol thanks for mentioning that i ll correct it

I tested it against aggro/fish its good you can take out a creature aswell.
Against combo i simply had the better matchup with null rod/duress/castigate but now i will try out the Needles. I think this deck needs cheap answers. The angels were doing NOTHING in this deck. I was never really able to cast them decently. Darkblast is good but it is only good against welder. With plow/cursed scroll/Needle I should have stabilized that problem.
There is a lot to say but i want thoughts again from you guys. I think this deck is going the right direction now.

Let me check the 1 card gab
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Guli
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« Reply #83 on: February 22, 2006, 01:53:06 pm »

I added +1 Sol ring aswell sorry i forgot to mention it

New Version B W aggro control

4 Duress
4 Castigate
2 Pithing Needle
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Dark Confidant
4 Withered Wretch
3 Phyrexian Negator
1 Necropotence
1 yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Cursed Scroll
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Seal of Cleansing
4 Dark Ritual
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
3 Swamp
4 Scrubland
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black lotus
1 Sol ring
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Guli
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« Reply #84 on: February 23, 2006, 03:32:27 am »

I added more permanents like Seal/Needle/Scroll and they are all cheapwhen they are not useful (wich is rare) i can sac them for Negator if needed. Null Rod shuts down Scroll but its bad against my creatures. So now they can't simply side away null rod. With cheap artifacts like that i have more chance of abusing my Ritual turn 1. I think i want to add another Dark Confidant. Maybe instead Vampiric Tutor.
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« Reply #85 on: February 23, 2006, 05:38:27 am »

.
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Zombie Shakespeare
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« Reply #86 on: February 23, 2006, 10:56:04 am »

Dark Confidant is a great card. I would definitely recommend running four but cutting Vampiric Tutor may not be the best choice.

Given that you've already taken out the Null Rods, you may want to consider testing Sensei's Diving Top in the Cursed Scroll slots. I have three in my build and with or without "Bob" on the table they have helped tremendously. You could put in two and the final slot could be your 4th Dark Confidant.

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"My fellow Americans, as a lad I dreamed of being a baseball. But now I say we must move forward not backward. Upward not forward. And always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom." 
- Kodos.
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Guli
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« Reply #87 on: February 23, 2006, 11:44:04 am »

Don't underestimate the cursed scroll! Yes null rod is good against it but hey they have to invest mana and time to put down nul rod and it only shuts down 3 scrolls (moxes don't count :p). Meanwhile they need to deal with negator/dark confi/wretch. I think i have a good game against control decks overall. There is a lot graveyard hate in the deck and antiwelder aswell. You guys should really try out the scrolls they are an extra threat maybe a bit slower but man if it stays on the table against other aggro i will win a lot card advantage. It also clears the way for my negator against other aggro. It is cheap. It is a permanent to sac if needed for negator. It is a win condition. I don't have a real draw engine and everything is cheap. My hand will mostly be empty. 1 colourles mana investement for a permanent that gives 2 damage is not bad even in this hard type 1 enviroment
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Zombie Shakespeare
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« Reply #88 on: February 23, 2006, 01:45:45 pm »

Cursed Scroll is not bad. But sometimes, especially against Control and Combo, its not fast enough.

I put your deck together on Magic Workstation and played out a few games. I rarely had more then 3 mana up. Which means you are either investing that entirely into activating the Cursed Scroll or you are playing another spell or ability. Your deck needs to be continually casting threats, particularly against control and combo, and Cursed Scroll's activation cost limits that. Against other aggro decks, Cursed Scroll will either be shut off by Null Rod or against the WTF variants their Jittes will be able to be online and protect their creatures before you get Cursed Scroll online.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 02:35:15 pm by Zombie Shakespeare » Logged

"My fellow Americans, as a lad I dreamed of being a baseball. But now I say we must move forward not backward. Upward not forward. And always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom." 
- Kodos.
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« Reply #89 on: February 24, 2006, 01:55:41 am »

3 or 4 games? lol that is funny.

I decided to put the scroll in after 50+ games or so.

I already have a good matchup against control or combo with my hand disruption and graveyard hate. Null rod shuts down most combo so badly it was a joke.

The needles help a lot aswell. I will side the scrolls with Null rod anyway but not main deck Null rod. Scroll is good period. If i have a a lot spells to cast then i simply cast them and then start scrolling. It is simply another threat lying there and it is not a creature. Against balance it stays in the game. If things get nasty with dark confidant i can blow it myself to prevent myself from dying before i give a final blow. Or i want my necro out of the game because i cant draw cards anymore. Shoot some on negator and sac the necro. I know this is rather radical but it can sometimes mean winning or losing. This deck simply has cheap powerfull spells and plays out very fast. I think using scroll is good in these kinda situations.I never scroll in my turn anyway. If i want to cast something really badly i smply do it. But scroll is something you do at end of turn or mostly
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