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Author Topic: [Card discussion] 'Castigate' from guildpact  (Read 15203 times)
zeus-online
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« Reply #90 on: February 24, 2006, 05:53:30 am »

No body is saying that scroll is a bad card, heck i LOVE the card. I just think its waay too slow for Type 1, against aggro/aggro-control it might be really good, but it has jitte or null rod to compete with.

I cant imagine cursed scroll being fast enough for Type 1.
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« Reply #91 on: February 24, 2006, 07:26:56 am »

If your running Creatures Jitte I think will give you the power you need against Agro.  In comparison:
1 mana to cast Scroll
2 mana to cast Jitte

3 mana to use scroll EVERY turn you wish to use it
2 mana to equip jitte, no mana to use once it is equiped

Scroll costs 4 mana and exactly one card in hand to go live first turn you play it
Jitte costs 4 mana and an active creature to go live first turn you play it

-Scroll saves you from getting Negatorpwned by killing weaklings
-Jitte kills weakings AND it can be used to lower the ammount of damage taken by attacker if you don't have enough counters to kill that creature.  For example scroll doesnt help you against skyshroud elite (a 2/3 against your deck) but jitte with 2 counters will give you the ability to block with negator and have the 2/3 become a 0/1.

-Scroll has almost negative synergy with confidant.  Because confidant gives you an extra card, and the scroll generally needs you to have 1 card in hand so you need to continuously play 2 spells a turn AND have 3 open mana to use the scroll every turn.
-Jitte CAN offset the life loss from confidant wich may buy you some time and card advantage against aggro decks.

-Scroll can deal 2 damage every turn to your opponent, giving you a slightly faster clock against control.
-jitte (if you save up the counters and use them to smash your opponents) can deal up to 4 extra damage a turn Given that they have no blockers.  4 extra damage a turn is a clock you can be proud of.

-Scroll is not legendary.  There for 2 scrolls and 6 mana is exactly twice as good as 1 scroll and 3 mana.  But lets face it, do you have 6 mana a turn AND the ability to play 1 spell a turn?
-Jitte IS legendary, therefore you can only have one in play at a time.
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Guli
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« Reply #92 on: February 24, 2006, 08:17:10 am »

jitte is better than scroll but it costs 1 mana more and it doesnt works on his own. i can try to add 1 jitte 1 scroll  why not?  :lol:

1 jitte for 11 creatures should be good enough.

+1 Dark confidant
-2 Cursed scroll
+1 Jitte
« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 08:22:25 am by Guli » Logged

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« Reply #93 on: February 24, 2006, 01:28:40 pm »

3 or 4 games? lol that is funny.

I decided to put the scroll in after 50+ games or so.

I already have a good matchup against control or combo with my hand disruption and graveyard hate. Null rod shuts down most combo so badly it was a joke.

The needles help a lot aswell. I will side the scrolls with Null rod anyway but not main deck Null rod. Scroll is good period. If i have a a lot spells to cast then i simply cast them and then start scrolling. It is simply another threat lying there and it is not a creature. Against balance it stays in the game. If things get nasty with dark confidant i can blow it myself to prevent myself from dying before i give a final blow. Or i want my necro out of the game because i cant draw cards anymore. Shoot some on negator and sac the necro. I know this is rather radical but it can sometimes mean winning or losing. This deck simply has cheap powerfull spells and plays out very fast. I think using scroll is good in these kinda situations.I never scroll in my turn anyway. If i want to cast something really badly i smply do it. But scroll is something you do at end of turn or mostly

I think Curesed Scroll is good for a deck with no draw engine for two reasons,

One, your hand is always low, which makes Cursed Scroll good.

Two, if you have a scroll out and you start top-decking stupid stuff like lands and Dark Rits (not sure if your current incarnation has them, but you get the point) you can turn them into threats, so that is good. When you are topdecking with a croll out, every card you draw is a shock (at the least), not such a bad thing.

Also, I would cut the Vamp for the 4th Confidant. They just seem anti-synergistic. Pay 2 life to put a card on top, then pay life equal to it's CMC seems silly.
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« Reply #94 on: February 25, 2006, 07:27:34 am »

Jitte is not so good for this deck because it is not that creature heavy in my opinion. I need to clear my way most of the time against weeni/aggro/small critters. The fact that scroll is 1 mana is important. When i tutor i mostly go get my necro anyway (or seal if i need to kill something important). But tutoring for a scroll is also an option. The problem with jitte is it is dependant. scroll only needs 1 thing. 1 card in your hand.  This deck does that by itself. 3 mana for 2 damage each turn is not that bad.Uba mask uses barbarian ring for 2 damage and it needs 1 red and the ring and preferably a crucible to get back the ring.

After playing some games i decided to go back to

2 cursed scrolls
2 Pithing needle

There are already 4 confidants in the deck

Creature base

4 Dark Confidant
4 Withered Wretch (BOMB)
3 Phyrexian Negator

I guess the last list i posted had 3 scrolls and 3 Dark confidant.
Vampiric can be so bad sometimes i agree. Especially when the deck loses so much life. And Yawgmoth'w Will is never really a bomb in this deck. If i have 2 rituals and/or lotus its good but otherwise it really doesn't do THAT much.

The control/disruption part of the deck:

5 Wasteland/strip
4 Duress
4 Castigate
3 Swords to plowshares
2 Pithing Needle
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Seal of cleansing

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will (still a powerfull card but maybe this deck needs something else)

All solid and cheap cards. 37 Cards already.

Mana/acceleration

1 Black lotus
1 mox jet
1 mox pearl
4 Dark ritual
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Flooded strand
4 Scrubland
2 Plains
3 Swamp
1 Sol ring

23 Mana sources (27 with waste/strip all togheter)

SB:

3 Sacred Ground
1 Phyrexian negator
4 Null Rod
2 Aura of Silence
2 Darkblast
1 Swords to plowshares
2 Exalted angel

I want to add Balance instead of yawgmoth's Will what say you?!


« Last Edit: February 25, 2006, 07:00:02 pm by Guli » Logged

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« Reply #95 on: February 25, 2006, 07:53:25 am »

If you think about the big picture it is not that bad considering a card like scroll. I use my cards to disrupt his hand and controling the board but i also lose cards by doing that. In order to keep some board control i could use a card like scroll. The fact that Null rod shuts it down doesn't really concern me. They still have to dedicate 2 mana to play the null rod when they could cast another real threat instead. This gives me time to cast my own threats. Eventually i will find a seal and clear rod from the table and win the game.

if they get an active jitte i am in a prettu bad shape anyway. I should be able to plow or scroll or block some creatures to dead before that happens. I can use needle/seal to shut down jitte myself. There are options  Smile

I know this sounds silly but i ask you to be a little open minded. Against red burn/sligh decks swords to plowshares is so strong. You would say game 1 is impossible to win but i say the contrary. I cast negator, he bolts it, in response i plow it. The plow becaume a card that says for 1 white mana gain 5 life. It shows in my opinion resiliance even against pure red burn. It would  probably be wise to side out the negators game 2 i guess. I think i need a better sideboard for this deck.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2006, 06:52:58 pm by Guli » Logged

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« Reply #96 on: February 26, 2006, 08:35:24 am »

Im gonna chime in with my own $.02

I personally think that this card is extremely subpar..WB..at sorcery speed..for one card. Uhh I have 2 words for you: Gerrard's Verdict. GV is like 1000x better than this card I ddon'teven think there is a need to state more.

Now, onto the topic of Shadow of a Doubt, II'm not too keen on it in this type of deck, Its the kind of card that belongs in a more Blue oriented deck, plus it ends up costing BB =/

Although I do feel discard is a powerful asset to anyone wanting to disrupt an opponent, I just want to remind you not to get too worked up over the idea, because there are no discards at instant speed, cards like brainstorm, mystical tutor, vamp, etc just laugh at discard. So as a note of caution, just be aware of these obstacles-don't be over confident in the discard disruption working 100% (although there IS land disruption too, but again there are no real ANSWERS to spells, which is the price of going blueless I guess). 

If you want to go black, I'm going to highly suggest:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27363.0
It’s the thread entitled “Finding the Confidant” that seems like the most optimum BW deck for this period in time.
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« Reply #97 on: February 26, 2006, 08:43:41 am »

No offence but you have no idea how this deck works Smile

GV is really BAD, please read the thread there are some nice posts. You will understand that it is not about 'discard' but it is about disruption and control

And check the last list there are no SOD anymore in the deck.
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« Reply #98 on: February 26, 2006, 08:44:40 am »


If you want to go black, I'm going to highly suggest:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27363.0
It’s the thread entitled “Finding the Confidant” that seems like the most optimum BW deck for this period in time.

I already wrote a long answer there go read it
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« Reply #99 on: February 26, 2006, 09:53:13 am »

"You will understand that it is not about 'discard' but it is about disruption and control"

Uhh last I checked discard is used as a form of disruption...I mean lets put it this way: Castigate (or GV) will either resolve or it wont..if it resolved, its a heck of a lot better to take 2 cards than one.

"No offense but you have no idea how this deck works"

I most certainly understand how the deck "works"...and pointed out that it WONT "work" in todays meta. I mean look you are using Cursed Scroll..that alone should tell you this deck isn't going to be THAT competitive. You are including power cards in a suboptimal deck thats what bothers me. Cursed Scroll does nothing against any deck in todays meta...you talk about how its cheap and can be sac'ed to Negator..but I mean the card has no other use than that..there are SO many cards that can be played instead.

Now lets discuss the fact you have absolutely no game against combo...I mean I'm not trying to attack your deck, I just don't think you are seeing the major flaws that I am seeing. Also, I mean what the hell do you have to combat say RG aggro or anything as lighting fast?

I just don't see this deck being 1. Fast enough (fast as in keeping up good disruption and keeping steady/increasing pressure on the opponent) or 2. versatile enough to be competitive today Sad
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« Reply #100 on: February 27, 2006, 07:40:47 am »

Ok i just played a shitload of games and 2 small tourneys between some friends.

i played against a bazaar/dredge/zombie infestation and the withered wretch simply dominated. Also the cursed scrolls were very usefull to keep board control. Pithing needle was very important to shut down bazaar and/or Z.Infest. I had the better matchup and my utility artifacts were important to keep control. Castigate was important to kill squees or other cards that could be abused in graveyard. Swords to plowshares did the same thing. The games we played showed that this deck has a lot graveyard hate packed. I think this is important and STRONG in the 'current' meta. I am happy with the results in this matchup because it shows my matchup against stax,gifts or any welder/graveyard playing deck is good and most of the meta uses graveyard.

i played an interesting oath version but only a couple of games. i couldn't really draw a lesson from these games but i think this matchup is rather hard for me. There is plow and hand disruption and there is a good chance i can take out his fatty but then he simply goes oathing again. I can't keep up with a resolved oath.  If i begin and i can do a duress and maybe castigate or confident next turn and try to get out his counters and try to find seals and plovs i have a good shot. I thought playing against oath would be cool because my 8 hand disruption cards and the dangerous plovs but i didn't get the chance to fully test this theory. However i think if the oath player has a golden hand here isn't much i can do. Plow is not going to save me. There is simply no time/mana to react with enough duress/castigate to break his counterwall and then cast plov and seal. But what deck can do much against a strong opening turn 1-2 of oath. I guess big fatties were always a problem for fish decks. A quick question , would adding blue solve this fatty problem? ( i will come back on the issue adding blue in general ) I think 2 seals and 2 cabal therapy should be in sideboard instead all that stax hate or the angels.

SB:

-2 Exalted angel
-1 Aura of silence
+2 Seal of cleansing
-1 Phyrexian Negator (moves to MAINDECK and takes that Will/Balance slot)
+2 Cabal Therapy

This should improve my matchup against oath post sideboard. I can use the Cabal Therapy against other control decks aswell.


I played several aggro decks and i was able to maintai control when i got a scroll. It gave me the possibility to relax and control the game. I don't understand why 'thatguynextdoor' is talking about. I also know how fast and dangerous vintage can be. But a cursed scroll means GG against aggro/fish if it becomes active. I only have 2 mainboard and no sideboard. It is an utility and it fits in the deck. Low hand enough mana cheap spells. the scroll gives me acces to direct damage. Pithing needle can protect the scroll against seal of cleansing. I just had a couple of situations like that i wanted to mention it. Game 2 was total domination when the angels/darkblast/4th plov came in instead of the negators and seal of cleansing. This deck is not slow. I played a lot turn 1 ritual and the many combinations possible.
ritual/negator (against control,oath,stax..)
ritual/duress/confidant
mox/land/confidant
...

I either have a ritual or a mox/lotus and i can play out my hand fast. The worst possible hand would be  playing a fetch and saying go but that rarely happened.

Against stax it all depends i guess. When the stax player begins and opens with workshop and cast some nasty stuff i am in trouble. But that is not because of my deck it is because stax can be very explosive and devestating sometimes. Turn 1 negator is a good try against stax. It happened a couple of times and i was able to finish him of before the dangerous stuff came. The wretch is the best weapon you got i think. It keeps you in game against welder/crucible. Castigate was nice i got a triskelon out of his hand when it was absolutely needed. A duress wouldn't be enough in that kinda situation. Castigate/Duress/Plow are more close to eachoter than you might think. They take care of a lot threats effeciently. When i side darkblast and sacred ground and aura's things get realy messy for the stax player. I think there is to much anti-stax sideboard. This deck does a pretty good job against stax anyway. I rather have seals than auras so i can get them in against oath aswell.

We discussed the blue splash aswell. I talked about the topic 'finding confidant deck' and we agreed the blue splash would be strong but i still need to be convinced about the mana base of 3 colors without getting completely mana f*cked by wasteland. Wretch is 2 black mana and Meddling Mage is U/W. It is impossible to play out those cards smoothly without coming out with duals early. I want to add 4 Meddling Mage/1 A.Recall/1 Time Walk but i don't see how i can maintain a stabe mana base. That is why i will continue to develop my deck idea. Im sure it can only get better. If the scrolls prove to be that terribly i will simply remove them from the deck and replace them with something better. At least i am playing/testing and then posting. simply assuming and talking theoreticly doesnt improve a deck. In real game vintage sometimes isn't that 'FAST' as one might think. It can happen, 2 good strip effect can knock out the opponent for several turns. My first 2 land drops are always a swamp and a plains unless i need to cast a wretch. But most of the time i ritual out the wretch anyway. Doesn't matter, what matters is that i start out with basic lands making it almost impossible to crack my mana early game.

I started out with a B/W control deck not an aggro/control. I took all the advice and tested it. I like the results. I learned the power of wretch/negator/confidant. How they work in certain situations. Using Meddling/Kataki/Wretch seems also very strong to me. But that is simply another deck. It doesn't run cards like dark ritual or necro or negator. These are big differences. And to say my deck is bad and the blue splash is better is simply early. I just made the deck lol i need time.

Negator puts a lot stress on the table even against aggro. You should take an aggro and play with me. You will feel the change of the board situation when i cast negator. Everything changes. You need answers and fast. This can lead to mistakes.

Dark Confidant is the best card in this deck. Without him on the table i feel like i am drawing nothing. I feel naked. He digs in the deck he gives me options. It is a clock against control. It can not stay on the board for long or it is game over for the enemy control player.

Wretch is pure control against most decks. He slowly beats and controls the game. Against aggro he is a good critter.

Besides the wasteland/strip i do not attack mana base. But that is not the gameplan anyway. If it was i would run kataki and null rod maindeck. So what is my gameplan then? I guess it is keeping control in general by removing threats from graveyard/hand/board or neutralizing them. Meanwhile put a negator in play to create a fast clock so they can't sit back and relax.

I do not use maindeck Null Rod. I also make sure i don't have a lot cards that get shut down by Rod. There are 2 reasons for this. If the oponent plays with null rod it will not solve their problem against my bears and negators. but if they do not shut down scroll they will also slowly die so they need something like null rod or seal to destroy my scroll. But those cards are dead in my eyes. I actually like it when they dedicate mana and time to shut down scroll because this makes them lose time they do not have. The second reason is obvious aswell. I run 4 rod in side.

GIVE ME ALTERNATIVES for scroll. Or think about the creature base and the cards surrounding that creature base. The disruption, is it optimal? Why? Give me situations that you were in and the reason why castigate would be bad! That whay i can think about it and try to improve. I don't want to lose the castigate yet it was a usefull card sometimes even game winning! And its a thread* about castigate so come on lets try to make the best of this. What toher control cards are there that might be nice to support this deck?






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zeus-online
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« Reply #101 on: February 27, 2006, 09:43:04 am »

I personally think that this card is extremely subpar..WB..at sorcery speed..for one card. Uhh I have 2 words for you: Gerrard's Verdict. GV is like 1000x better than this card I ddon'teven think there is a need to state more.

Ehm, in Type 1 good discard isnt really about the amount of cards discarded.....sure if there was a cheap way to nuke his entire hand on turn 1 it would be awesome (Mind twist dosnt count, you have to be really lucky to get away with it).....its about taking specific cards - Will, Ancestral, possibly just a draw spell or a counter to force something good through.

The only problem with this is that it can be easy to play around it (BS, Tutors), and discard dosnt stop top-decks...

/Zeus
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« Reply #102 on: February 27, 2006, 09:59:51 am »

Isn't it better to play the scroll sb? and boarding it in vs aggro. True believer is an option, but the ww casting cost is maybe to much. And Mesmeric fiend is better then castigate if you can keep them into play, you can play it with ritual and it has a body. Maybe you can play duress+mesmeric fiend+castigate?
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« Reply #103 on: February 27, 2006, 11:20:28 pm »

Isn't it better to play the scroll sb? and boarding it in vs aggro. True believer is an option, but the ww casting cost is maybe to much. And Mesmeric fiend is better then castigate if you can keep them into play, you can play it with ritual and it has a body. Maybe you can play duress+mesmeric fiend+castigate?
Cursed Scroll is a very good card.  It can win you games in aggro by taking out their creatures, but it also shines a lot in the control match because it is a renewable source of damage that is uncounterable, sure it can get destroyed but that means they top decked it or wasted a tutor for it, which is a one up for you.

True Believer I think is a sideboard card unless you have extra spots in the main, because it only is good against Tendrils, Gifts Ungiven, and Combo decks.  However if you did get it in play it can swing a game enormously, causing the opponent to win via second win condition (against Tendrils, Gifts, and Combo).

Mesmeric fiend is pretty bad in the new metagame, because Darkblast is appearing more and more to take card of welders, and if you took a valuable card to them they will find Darkblast and kill the fiend.  Saying that "Mesmeric fiend is better then castigate if you can keep them into play" is like saying Hypnox is better then Mind Twist, relying on keeping it in play is a very bad decision as you have no control to guard it and it's only a 1/1.
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« Reply #104 on: February 28, 2006, 05:33:07 am »

my answer to darkblast is wretch. I try to get rid of it and remove it from game. however the Fiend is not good enough in this deck. i like the fiend more with blue bounce tricks. He can do cute things with a chain of vapor.
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« Reply #105 on: February 28, 2006, 05:39:21 am »

I am now asking a question to myself and everybody reading this.

Against deck life slaver/gifts or any deck that uses brainstorm/tutors things that i can not counter or prevent.When i as able to complete my gameplan, wretch on the board no more graveyard sicknes. A seal on the table and a needle naming an important card (depends on enemy deck), what can be so devistating to me at that moment that i have NO answer for. I need real game situations/scenarios so i can actually think about my deepes weak points. I need to create a very good sideboard for this deck to be able to compete decently.

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« Reply #106 on: February 28, 2006, 07:06:13 am »

I would say, Tinker and all cards that can find it for them!  (Imperial seal, vampiric tutor, mystical tutor, demonic tutor)

From slaver, Triskelion/duplicant could remove the wretch, and then they could almost instantly get back in the game.

I'm assuming that they do not have a full hand at this point, since you should have used some discard spells to remove important cards.

I dont think you'd be in that much trouble at this stage of the game...having wretch and seal takes care of most problems....even top-decking Will shouldnt be that much of a problem if you got a wretch up.

I think the real problem is getting to this stage! Smile

/Zeus
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« Reply #107 on: March 03, 2006, 05:34:08 am »

You know what cards i would like to implement in this deck idea but it seems like an impossible job.

Chains of Mephistopheles
The Rack
A beater for 2 for 1 mana (isamaru,sarcomancy,savannah lion,..)

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« Reply #108 on: March 03, 2006, 06:04:59 am »

If you dont want to fetch out an early white source, i'd suggest carnopage....now you're probably wondeirng "Why play carno over sarco?"...well with carnophage Cabal therapy would be alot awesome( r )! Smile And if you add 4 little beaters, i'd suggest that you add 2-4 cabal therapy!

Sarcomancy does up your permanent count against stax though....

/Zeus
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« Reply #109 on: March 03, 2006, 07:11:39 am »

It also gives me food for the negator.

i think i fetch a swamp 90% of my games.

Dures
mox/Confidant
Ritual

Besides i think this deck should really cast something turn 1. And i think that first land should be a basic swamp.

The reason i want to add a card like The rack is a feeling i got. Im not doing anything against artifact mana. Because i can't catch them anyway if i can do something against the actual threats and let them play their mana base they will have no hand left with a bunch of mana on the board. I want them to play out their hand so they lose focus and card quality. If i add sarcomany and the rack i will give more damage against stax and have more permanents. I will have another bear against aggro. My negators will become more fearsome aswell with another permanent. I can simply take a defensive position with the rack.

I don't know it is just an idea. Another card (it was actually suggested and i was pretty harsh against it but now i think it has potential) is Unmask. Acting as a force of will.

Chain of Meph is the card i want the most in this deck. Not just sideboard but maindeck. It does not affect my drawers. Should be strong.



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« Reply #110 on: March 03, 2006, 11:55:51 am »

I don't know it is just an idea. Another card (it was actually suggested and i was pretty harsh against it but now i think it has potential) is Unmask. Acting as a force of will.

Unmask is terrible in this type of deck... You don't want to remove any of your black cards to hit something. Usually Unmask is used before "going off" in combo decks.
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« Reply #111 on: March 09, 2006, 03:07:29 pm »

In this deck gerrards verdict may be better then castigate
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« Reply #112 on: March 09, 2006, 04:03:00 pm »

The problem with gerrards verdict is that they can chose what they putin their graveyard. In the current meta that is insane. Castigate is a sharp card that has the potential to remove an important card out of the game: Squee,Akroma,Yawgmoths Will,Triskelon,Mind slaver,... It is the REMOVE FROM GAME bonus that makes me keep this card in this deck. To be honost i should make an update on my list. It's been a while.
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« Reply #113 on: March 19, 2006, 01:11:04 am »

One card that I think would really shine in this deck and perhaps be the missing link is Extract.  As previously noted your problem is that you can't do jack about the top deck.  Well for one blue mana you can get rid of the worst threat they could top deck your way.  Running blue would also make SOD less painful and open you back up to ancestral/timewalk. 
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« Reply #114 on: April 07, 2006, 05:47:43 am »

An interesting tutor i have to admit for a deck that has low hand

Infernal Tutor 1b
Sorcery

Reveal a card in your hand. Search your library for a card with the same name as the revealed card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library.
Hellbent - If you have no cards in your hand, search your library for a card and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library.

thoughts?
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