[Deck] Chargecounter

[brianpk80]

Where you playing against yourself when testing the deck? If so, you might be prone to the same thing as I am. I always tend to push the deck I'm testing harder than the deck I'm playing against. Probably because in my subconscious I want the deck to win. It's very dangerous to put up play % if you've played your deck against yourself.

Other than that, there are some interesting concepts here. There is still room for improvement I think, but I should give it a try in MWS before commenting any further.

Thanks for the commentary.  I haven't tested it solo, all of my matches were against other opponents.
I understand what you mean about testing solo not giving an accurate picture of how the deck
would actually play out in person because of the subjectivity involved.  So I haven't done that.

-Brian

[brianpk80]

Since i have not played the deck, i'll be short.
The few questions I'm asking :
-How do you get artifact cards to weld in your graveyard? I see no bob (that may be good in the deck)?
-How do you expect a combo match up with only 4 chalice for disruption?
-2 brainstorm, 0 thirst, 1 intuition (as a tutor).. how can the deck be redondant? since all the cards are synergic but they are all bad on their own. Okay, you may roxx tinker's kill of gift.deck. What about its tendrils ? (even chalice lets him storm..)
-What is your kill ? some 1/1 ? what do you do against the clock?

I really don't like MWS random testing. too many bad players in there.

I am running Thirst of Knowledge now and think it's a great card in here.
As for Tendrils, there are many options.  Chalice, Gorilla, and Umezawa's Jitte
tend to guard against it well.  If there's a Jitte on the table with 2 or more
charge counters and/or a Coretapper in play, then Tendrils isn't going to kill me
because they will need to get storm up to at least 11 or 13-14 before casting it. 
This is especially unlikely because the Gifts player is likely to have exhausted several
resources in the first few turns, having pitched a Brainstorm to FoW something on
Turn 1 or having lost several artifact mana producers to an AEther Vialled Gorilla, etc.
 
As for the cards being synergic but "bad on their own," that isn't true for most
cards in here.  Only the Coretapper is "bad on its own" but even at its worst, it's
a 1/1 Weldable artifact creature that makes the Academy produce another U. 

Thanks for the commentary,

-Brian

[Nuthing]

how do you beat belcher.. chalice is good and all but if that is your only disruption and even that is subpar against it... also by the time you get a jitte out and get 2 counters on it you have already lost against most combo decks..

another note is with the release of shattering spree how do you stand up to that... you get a chalice for one and the just ignore it and comence to go off.. it seems like an ok idea if your playing in a slower format, but what i have seen from type 1 it just seems to slow and has little disruption

[brianpk80]

how do you beat belcher.. chalice is good and all but if that is your only disruption and even that is subpar against it... also by the time you get a jitte out and get 2 counters on it you have already lost against most combo decks..

another note is with the release of shattering spree how do you stand up to that... you get a chalice for one and the just ignore it and comence to go off.. it seems like an ok idea if your playing in a slower format, but what i have seen from type 1 it just seems to slow and has little disruption

Belcher is not as bad as one would think.
It's even, and who plays first is often determinative.
If I get a Chalice 1, they lose.  If I throw them off with a Gorilla, they're
likewise in trouble.  If they're tight on mana and my Welder is in play,
then they've lost.  4 Pithing Needles in the sideboard swing it in
my favor post-sb.

-Brian

[Evenpence]

Where you playing against yourself when testing the deck? If so, you might be prone to the same thing as I am. I always tend to push the deck I'm testing harder than the deck I'm playing against. Probably because in my subconscious I want the deck to win. It's very dangerous to put up play % if you've played your deck against yourself.

Other than that, there are some interesting concepts here. There is still room for improvement I think, but I should give it a try in MWS before commenting any further.

This is really interesting.  I actually keep bad hands while I'm playing other decks, just to see if the deck I'm playing can win through hard situations.  I always play the other deck perfectly, countering the right spells, etc, but I play my deck as if I couldn't see the other person's hand.

Luckily, I play Ubastax, so there's not a whole lot involved, and solo play is very easy (as it's just in what order to play the threats in Ubastax, everything else is easy once you understand the deck).

BTW, Belcher would probably be a very hard matchup for this deck, as you actually need chalice at 0 AND 1 pre-sideboard for Belcher to not have alot of mana production (and they can actually still win through that with ESG's/Land Grants and Cabal Rituals, etc).  Post Sideboard, I think you technically need 0, 1, and 2, and there actually might be ways for Belcher to STILL win through that (although I don't think so).  Naturalize is at 2, btw, which is why you need it gone.

[Yawgmoths_Dummy]

Just looking at the mana base, I'm not sure what you've changed, but there are some questions.

4 Volcanic Island
1 Shivan Reef
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Strip Mine
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifact Mana (4):
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault

Shivan Reef- Not Fetchable. Should be Steam Vents or another Fetch.
Mishra's Factory- What is this doing here? Very random as a one of.
Tolarian Academy- What are you ramping up to? You're not running the full compliment of Moxen, so any early acceleration, (1st turn), is minimal at best.
Lack of off color Moxes and no Mana Crypt- All are cheaper Welder food, can power out faster EE's and higher Chalices. They ramp Academy up faster, and power out 1st turn Jitte's and Vial's, ect.
LoA- This deck wants to dump cards to enable E. Bridge right? What does this do then? It might as well be Darksteel Citadel, (Welder food + Crucible recursion = some good) or at least Wasteland #4.

Other items of interest:

Magus of the Unseen- Seems like a dead card vs Oath, FCG, and Fish. and only marginally good vs Stax. In the 2 cc spot I think Guilded Drake would be much better, (takes flying legends, but also does the trick vs 11/11's). While he doesn't steal Moxes, what else are you going to take other than DCS? Mindslaver? Belchers? I doubt you'll get those opportunities.

Where is Time Walk? Needs no elaboration.

The lack of a solid draw engine and no tutors is scary. Against most other blue decks you are going to get out drawn 3 to 1 on an average turn, not including tutors.

You are running Tinker but no DSC. Why? Let's face it, his random I win factor is huge. That's why he is featured in almost every blue deck, and is a SB option in Oath, (and sometimes a main deck inclusion). And he gives you a viable clock.

I can almost see the Slaver skeleton in this deck, with all the draw, counter, and Slaver components removed, for suboptimal Fish components.

@Eddie

I always play the other deck perfectly, countering the right spells,

This is a blatant assumption. You would have to be a master of every deck to play them all perfectly. And even if you were, the correct play is not alway evident. So assuming you make the correct play every time is a ridiculous statement.

but I play my deck as if I couldn't see the other person's hand.

This is impossible. I have goldfished hundreds of decks, and this just can't be accomplished. You need to know whats in the other decks hand, to make correct plays on their behalf. While it's nice to think you're doing the right thing, and playing the right play, let's be honest.
Goldfishing is what it is....goldfishing.

Belcher is not as bad as one would think.
It's even, and who plays first is often determinative.
If I get a Chalice 1, they lose.  If I throw them off with a Gorilla, they're
likewise in trouble.

I don't understand this logic. Couldn't they just play two Land Grants from hand, play a land, pitch a ESG, play Channel, and play Belcher for the win? And yeah, that does happen often.

then Tendrils isn't going to kill me
because they will need to get storm up to at least 11 or 13-14 before casting it.

12 spells isn't impossible to achieve playing Gifts. Any good Gifts player will attest to this. I've pulled off second turn Tendrils for well into the 30 damage range, it's not that hard. Into Chalice for 0, sure that is harder, but you're not always going to get optimal draws either.

I'm going to MWS the deck up, with some tweeks of course, and see what it does. Somehow, I don't think my numbers will  match your testing numbers, but we'll see.

[Moxlotus]

how do you beat belcher.. chalice is good and all but if that is your only disruption and even that is subpar against it... also by the time you get a jitte out and get 2 counters on it you have already lost against most combo decks..

another note is with the release of shattering spree how do you stand up to that... you get a chalice for one and the just ignore it and comence to go off.. it seems like an ok idea if your playing in a slower format, but what i have seen from type 1 it just seems to slow and has little disruption

Belcher is not as bad as one would think.
It's even, and who plays first is often determinative.
If I get a Chalice 1, they lose.  If I throw them off with a Gorilla, they're
likewise in trouble.  If they're tight on mana and my Welder is in play,
then they've lost.  4 Pithing Needles in the sideboard swing it in
my favor post-sb.

-Brian

Something tells me that JDizzle disagrees with everything you just said.  Hell, I played Belcher in 1 tournament and I disagree that Chalice @1=gg or Needle=GG.

[Hydra]

I've watched JDizzle play Belcher through Chalices at 0 and 1 that were played turn one on the play.  Belcher probably handles Chalice better than any other "pure" combo deck in the format, so your answers for the deck need to be better than just Chalice.  Gorilla Shaman and Welder is hardly an issue when they can respond to either by using their cards for mana/killing you.

[bebe]

THe chalice for 0 or chalice for 1 plan begins to break down when your opponent can combo off quicker then you  play the cards or simply bounce or remove it. I know that the tendrils build I use has no problems with chalice and I've played enough belcher to know that I could win wth the card on the table as well.
I've already expressed the opnion that the Canadian version of fish is built to beat this type od deck. I would like to see how it fares against r/g hate or mountains win again.
Now I like needles - its an all round useful card - but decks like belcher are prepared for it and null rod. No competent player is going to play somethig that auto scoops to cards that are commonly played. Think it through. so I'm left wondering what decks are left that you deck has a better than 60% chance of beating. If it is 50/50 against some decks and orse against others I fail to see a good reason to play it.

[Nuthing]

how do you beat belcher.. chalice is good and all but if that is your only disruption and even that is subpar against it... also by the time you get a jitte out and get 2 counters on it you have already lost against most combo decks..

another note is with the release of shattering spree how do you stand up to that... you get a chalice for one and the just ignore it and comence to go off.. it seems like an ok idea if your playing in a slower format, but what i have seen from type 1 it just seems to slow and has little disruption

Belcher is not as bad as one would think.
It's even, and who plays first is often determinative.
If I get a Chalice 1, they lose.  If I throw them off with a Gorilla, they're
likewise in trouble.  If they're tight on mana and my Welder is in play,
then they've lost.  4 Pithing Needles in the sideboard swing it in
my favor post-sb.

-Brian

Something tells me that JDizzle disagrees with everything you just said.  Hell, I played Belcher in 1 tournament and I disagree that Chalice @1=gg or Needle=GG.

yea ive been playing it for sometime now and chalice for 1 doesnt bother me as much as you think it would... i will cladly combo out with cabal rituals instead...also with the arifact hate that i bring in post board make needle just another stall card. Sure its nice until i get oxidize or naturalize or deconstruct.. and then i win.

[LotusHead]

I too faced this deck on MWS. Yes, random "T1" players is not a guarentee of good players.  Most of us would disregard such games of evidence sake, buy many TMDrs and savage netdeckers can be found too.  an once in a while you face gems like this little bad boy. 

The deck does look like a pile, but I've seen it work.  His "Borrowing" of my crucible or SmokeStack really did kinda piss me off. I wish I could have tested more against it, but i had to go.  I chalked it up as "wierd rogue pile that certainly can handle stax"

In three games (I was playing a Stax/TimeBandits), I feel into his gameplan, and he completely demolished me 3 games in a row.

Granted my deck had no draw engine.

Keep tossing your questions out, and let the man anwswer.

My only critizis, is that it needs a cooler name.

 

[brianpk80]

how do you beat belcher.. chalice is good and all but if that is your only disruption and even that is subpar against it... also by the time you get a jitte out and get 2 counters on it you have already lost against most combo decks..

another note is with the release of shattering spree how do you stand up to that... you get a chalice for one and the just ignore it and comence to go off.. it seems like an ok idea if your playing in a slower format, but what i have seen from type 1 it just seems to slow and has little disruption

Belcher is not as bad as one would think.
It's even, and who plays first is often determinative.
If I get a Chalice 1, they lose.  If I throw them off with a Gorilla, they're
likewise in trouble.  If they're tight on mana and my Welder is in play,
then they've lost.  4 Pithing Needles in the sideboard swing it in
my favor post-sb.

-Brian

Something tells me that JDizzle disagrees with everything you just said.  Hell, I played Belcher in 1 tournament and I disagree that Chalice @1=gg or Needle=GG.

Ok, to clarify, Chalice 1 by itself is not an absolute game over against Belcher.
But it's not like I play the Chalice and then sit there doing nothing for the duration of the
game.  The early Chalice 1 against Belcher (ie Turn 1 or 2) makes it very difficult for Belcher to
compete with everything else on the table.  Welders and Gorillas being vialled out at the
end of turn, Magus of the Unseen stealing their Moxen/Lotus or Chromatic Spheres and either sacrificing
them or Welding them into Coretappers, Jittes for their own Welders (in case 1 gets by
the Chalice 1).  The point is that Chalice 1 is just one part of a set-up that makes it
hard for Belcher to carry out its plan. 

I don't think any Belcher deck is going to have an easy time against: Welder, Chalice 1, and Pithing Needle
on the table, with Jittes, Magus of the Unseen, Coretappers, and Engineered Explosives on their way.   

-Brian

[Moxlotus]

I don't think any Belcher deck is going to have an easy time against: Welder, Chalice 1, and Pithing Needle
on the table, with Jittes, Magus of the Unseen, Coretappers, and Engineered Explosives on their way. 

Since when does Jitte, Magus, Coretapper, or Explosives do anything against Belcher?

[Hydra]

I suppose Jitte could theoretically buy you a turn with the life gain or help keep their Welders off the board...

[brianpk80]

I don't think any Belcher deck is going to have an easy time against: Welder, Chalice 1, and Pithing Needle
on the table, with Jittes, Magus of the Unseen, Coretappers, and Engineered Explosives on their way. 

Since when does Jitte, Magus, Coretapper, or Explosives do anything against Belcher?

Jitte kills its Welders, Magus steals its mana sources and/or the Belcher itself (often to be
Welded into one of my own artifacts), the Coretapper can charge the Jitte without the
delay of dealing combat damage and Engineered Explosives are a pretty obvious headache
for any deck who relies heavily on cheap artifact mana.

-Brian
 

[brianpk80]

I too faced this deck on MWS. Yes, random "T1" players is not a guarentee of good players.  Most of us would disregard such games of evidence sake, buy many TMDrs and savage netdeckers can be found too.  an once in a while you face gems like this little bad boy. 

The deck does look like a pile, but I've seen it work.  His "Borrowing" of my crucible or SmokeStack really did kinda piss me off. I wish I could have tested more against it, but i had to go.  I chalked it up as "wierd rogue pile that certainly can handle stax"

In three games (I was playing a Stax/TimeBandits), I feel into his gameplan, and he completely demolished me 3 games in a row.

Granted my deck had no draw engine.

Keep tossing your questions out, and let the man anwswer.

My only critizis, is that it needs a cooler name.

 

Thanks for the response.
The deck definitely needs a better name and for the time being I've just named it
after two prominent cards in it.
I'm working on the draw engine; right now Thirst for Knowledge has been very
helpful. 

-Brian

[Penguin]

Jitte kills its Welders, Magus steals its mana sources and/or the Belcher itself (often to be
Welded into one of my own artifacts), the Coretapper can charge the Jitte without the
delay of dealing combat damage and Engineered Explosives are a pretty obvious headache
for any deck who relies heavily on cheap artifact mana.

The only problem is that all of your theories of dealing with those threats are easily dealt with.  Jitte can simply be named with a Pithing Needle which many decks now-a-days are being ran in the maindeck or in the sideboard.  Magus can be simply be bounced, they can activate the mana source or belcher in response, and once again Pithing Needle comes to hose you once again.  Coretapper is a bad 2-card combo.  Any 2-card combo that doesn't win you the game is bad in Vintage, maybe in Extended but not in Vintage.  Engineered Explosives are not reliable because they can easily keep "baiting" you to use it (for instace, they play one Mox and tap it for mana, seeing if you will blow it in response, then they play a second Mox and see if you blow it, etc...) and then for the final time you get screwed by Pithing Needle.

So from what I gather, you need a way to deal with Pithing Needle and from there I don't know.

[Moxlotus]

I don't think any Belcher deck is going to have an easy time against: Welder, Chalice 1, and Pithing Needle
on the table, with Jittes, Magus of the Unseen, Coretappers, and Engineered Explosives on their way.?

Since when does Jitte, Magus, Coretapper, or Explosives do anything against Belcher?

Jitte kills its Welders, Magus steals its mana sources and/or the Belcher itself (often to be
Welded into one of my own artifacts), the Coretapper can charge the Jitte without the
delay of dealing combat damage and Engineered Explosives are a pretty obvious headache
for any deck who relies heavily on cheap artifact mana.

-Brian
 

So you're going to get a jitte w/ counters to kill Welders by turn 1-2 even though it doesn't actually deal with the Belcher?  Magus is worthless since they can just activate Belcher in response.  Coretapper+jitte=freaking slow.  Explosives also lets Belcher use its mana once--which is usually all it needs.

[brianpk80]

Current incarnation:

Land (19):

4 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

Artifact Mana (6):
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus

Creatures (16):
4 Goblin Welder
4 Coretapper
4 Meddling Mage
2 Magus of the Unseen
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Platinum Angel

Spells (6):
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
3 Thirst for Knowledge

Non-Mana Artifacts (13):
4 Chalice of the Void
3 AEther Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15):
4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Old Man of the Sea
2 True Believer
1 Magus of the Unseen
1 Engineered Explosives

I've moved the Ensnaring Bridges to the sideboard for now, instead opting for a better
draw engine (3 Thirst, Ancestral, LoA, Sensei's).  I've cut back on Gorillas, opting
instead for another Engineered Explosives which is superior in almost every case
except where a response for Null Rod is needed or I need a creature to equip.
I've added the Platinum Angel for the time being because she often extends
the game for a few critical turns and is not difficult to get into play w. 4 Welders,
3 Thirsts, Tinker, and 3 AEther Vials (which a Coretapper + Welder can ramp up
from 2 to 7 instantly).  The Meddling Mages are added for extra disruption
and having 2/2 blockers has made the need for Ensnaring Bridges less compelling,
further justifying their move to the sideboard.  Ironically, I'm finding that
the Bridges are useless against the deck they would seem most useful against: Oath.
The reason for this is that Oath enjoys sideboarding out it main creatures and
replacing them with Triskelions.  I sideboard 2 Pithing Needles in against it
for that reason.

And to anyone who I haven't responded to personally, I will get around to everyone as
time permits.  I appreciate the feedback.

-Brian

[LotusHead]

So you're going to get a jitte w/ counters to kill Welders by turn 1-2 even though it doesn't actually deal with the Belcher?  Magus is worthless since they can just activate Belcher in response.  Coretapper+jitte=freaking slow.  Explosives also lets Belcher use its mana once--which is usually all it needs.

Since when does a deck need to be able to deal with a sea of all Belcher decks?

"Coretapper+jitte=freaking slow."  But it IS a built in way to take out annoying Meddling Mages (after a few beats), Welders (Killing one welder per turn is good) and so forth.

In my early Salvager lists, just using Aether SPellbomb to bounce a welder every turn was freaking slow, but it worked within the deck.

[Penguin]

So you're going to get a jitte w/ counters to kill Welders by turn 1-2 even though it doesn't actually deal with the Belcher?  Magus is worthless since they can just activate Belcher in response.  Coretapper+jitte=freaking slow.  Explosives also lets Belcher use its mana once--which is usually all it needs.

Since when does a deck need to be able to deal with a sea of all Belcher decks?

"Coretapper+jitte=freaking slow." But it IS a built in way to take out annoying Meddling Mages (after a few beats), Welders (Killing one welder per turn is good) and so forth.

In my early Salvager lists, just using Aether Spellbomb to bounce a welder every turn was freaking slow, but it worked within the deck.

Go to the third post down on this page and then you find the entire discussion, but to sum it up.  BrianPK80 said that he didn't think Belcher decks would have a easy time against this deck with all the stuff in his deck, then MoxLotus responded saying that he didn't believe him because he didn't think that Belcher lost to the stuff in this deck.

Sure, Coretapper + Umezawa's Jitte are slow I agree on that fact.  But, since when does no one in the format run artifact or creature destruction or for that matter, how does both of these get through a counter wall if they know what your decks goal is already?  Like I said before it is just a small 2-card combo that doesn't win you the game and that is not very good.  But in all reality do you think that your going to win killing off their welders just so they Tinker into Darksteel Colossus and then your on a two turn clock to get 11 counters on your Jitte.

All I am saying is that this is not a reliable creature removal combo because they are both artifacts and there is a lot of artifact disruption in the forms of Gorilla Shaman, Rack and Ruin, and Oxidize.

[Gabethebabe]

Consider this more of a helpful nudge than anything else.  Gabe, you know that this thread is in the improvement forum for a reason.[/color]

It wasn´t when I wrote that. In any case point taken.

[Yawgmoths_Dummy]

My initial testing has show that the first list cannot beat Gifts, (using Kowal's winning list from Baldwinsville). It was a perfect 0-10 in goldfishing, and a perfect 0-10 vs. capable opponent, (minimal play mistakes), playing said Gifts deck. The newer list was 2-8 in goldfishing, (Platz and large amounts of hate in play and bad hands for Gifts.), and 1-9 vs player, (very close win/ next turn loss).

With this analsis, it's my opinion that this deck isn't worth further testing vs the rest of the field, as Gifts is probably the most commonly played deck, and I don't think the numbers vs Oath or Fish will be much better.

I think that U/W fish is a better version of what this deck it trying to be, because it has a  better draw engine and counter back up.

Good luck with any further development.

[warble]

There is no countermagic and no draw power.  Do you truly expect to win the game with the first 7 cards you draw and topdecks?  It's not possible without workshops.  It just isn't.

The deck breaks the cardinal rule of Type 1.  Break something, break it badly, and win because of it.  What did you break?  Please, please answer that question.  How is this deck broken?

Examples:

Control Slavery breaks the graveyard and mana restrictions.  Full mana acceleration and goblin welder mean you don't pay mana costs and basically win way too fast, and all those counters back back you up.

Fish breaks the disruption and early game mana restrictions.  You have a clock, but you have specific hate against almost every matchup that shouldn't be possible.  It's like playing your sideboard game 1, because vintage is waaaaaaaaaaay too predictable.  And it rolls when you meta the deck wrong.  Because of this it's typically thought of as the "odd man" in vintage because it's really only conditionally broken.

Goblins breaks the mana requirement with goblin lackey and aether vial.  And it breaks the summoning sickness requirement with haste on all your creatures.  It doesn't, however, use really old broken cards so it doesn't break itself as badly...but it can power through counterspells so that more then compensates.

Your deck...plays old creatures...ticks up chalice sometimes but then who cares?  If you can't win through chalice you shouldn't play the deck in type 1.  Unless it's TPS because you're trying to race chalice (you fools!)

One other note, just putting power in a deck doesn't make it broken.  It makes it expensive to make.

Final note: can you win against triskelion?  How about two triskelions?  How many cards (let's add rack and ruin to the mix) will just destroy this deck?  That's too many!