[Discussion] Tangle Wire in Ubastax!

[Evenpence]

I don't think you can get 4 of either, honestly.  I actually don't know which one I would prefer to have more often.  Probably Tangle Wire.

[sean1i0]

I'm currently cutting 1 gorilla shaman for the 4th tangle wire.  I did some more testing tonight, but still don't have anything that I would dare call conclusive.

I think that the only way you could put 4 of both would be to cut both gorilla shamans; duplicants are randomly good in so many matches/for welder advantage.  Even though the same can be said about shamans, at least their function (of cutting of moxen advantage, that is) is filled by several other cards in the deck.  Duplicant is the only card in the deck that comes close to filling the role that it does.

I would really love to be able to do that, but shamans are just so good; I guess I should test it out anyway, if nothing else, then just for shits and giggles, and see if the lack of shamans/increase of 2 powerful lock components changes anything significantly from your configuration.

[Evenpence]

It's funny you say that, I've already outlined in a previous post why I think

3 Tangle Wires
2 Gorilla Shaman

is actually better than:

4 Tangle Wires
1 Gorilla Shaman.

With 4/1, your chalice at 1 is stronger.  However, in everything but Slaver, Chalice @ 1 isn't really a priority over other chalice numbers.

Shaman works together with Tangle Wire to really demolish the opponent.  Playing 2, you assure yourself of never getting 2 in the same game (or very rarely) but sometimes getting 1.  When you play 3 Tangle Wire, you're almost sure to see 1 per game, but usually not a whole lot more than that.

I want to see both so they can work together.  Shaman + Wire is one of my favorite synergies in the entire deck, oddly enough.  I love it far more than Shaman + Sphere, because Shaman doesn't cost a ton to get into play now, and he's actually better with Wire than he is with Sphere just straight up.

Doing 4/1 increases the probability that you'll see more than 1 Tangle Wire in a game, but makes it so you only see Shaman once every match or so.

In conclusion, I'm really stoked about the current build, and think it is very optimized.  (Thanks Yespuhyren for coming to the same conclusion!)  I don't think a 4/1 Ubawire build is necessarily wrong by any means, and think it's very strong on it's own (and would have actually been stronger in the tournament I went to, Shaman did SHIT for me all day long), but don't think it's optimal for a large tournament.

In a smaller, drain-based tournament, I would probably play the following:

Standard 47.
4 Uba Mask
4 Tangle Wire
3 Null Rod
2 Gorilla Shaman

EDIT:

Or:
4 Tangle Wire
3 Uba Mask
3 Null Rod
3 Gorilla Shaman (Yes, THREE).  To maximize the efficiency of Tangle Wire.  You can even tap the Shamans for the Wires!  Sick!

[sean1i0]

You said that Chalice @ 1 isn't a priority over other chalice numbers, so I have to ask, do you find yourself more often than not just going for the almost default chalice @ 1 or waiting and setting it to something else.  As for myself, I really find that I set the first chalice to 1 (unless I'm on the play with a chalice - in that case I usually drop it for zero) most of the time.

BTW I definitely agree that shaman is an amazing card and even more amazing than usual when you can put him and tangle wire next to each other on the field.  Perhaps the 3/3/2 (tangle wire/uba mask/gorilla shaman) configuration is superior:  It undisputedly gives you the most flexibility the most consistently.  Really, shaman's two biggest strikes against him are that he has a converted mana cost of 1 and that he requires non-shop mana and obviously the first is a larger problem than the second.

[sundering titan]

Hi,
Please could you explain a little bit your sideboard options against different decks in the current meta (Oath, Stax, Dragon, Agro, CS....)
Currently i am playing the following ub deck :

Standard plus :
4 smokestack
3 tangle wire
3 uba
3 nrod
2 shaman
2 dup

I just moved from 3 resistors to 3 nrod. I still dont know which one is better since there is so much aggro & random decks in my local tournaments..... ???

Thanks for your feedback!

[yespuhyren]

I think IF I was going to do 4/4 wire/mask I would do the following

47
4 uba
4 wire
3 rod
2 shaman

SB

4 temper
4 duplicant
4 rblast/pblast
3 heretic

[sean1i0]

@ sundering titan:

Duplicants and Maze of Ith are great against all manner of aggro and against Oath.  The only thing I guess I can really sideboard against Dragon is Tormod's Crypt and extra duplicants (Welder in play w/duplicant in graveyard is obviously amazing against dragon).

Against Stax Viashino Heretic and extra welder should do the job nicely and against blue based control, really most of the stuff in the maindeck is good; I guess if you really want more stuff to bring in against them, you could bring in a 4th null rod or a 4th Uba Mask from the board if you feel compelled to do so, although it's not necessary.

@yespuhyren

So you think that maindeck shamans are more important than maindeck duplicants?  In many ways I've valued duplicants power to randomly win games against random jank deck with lots of permanents more than gorilla shamans ability to somewhat redundantly make moxen fairly useless.  Considering it the other way though, I suppose that you could make the argument that games against decks where duplicant owns will be nearly unloseable post sideboard and that the most powerful decks (minus oath) where moxen are important are tougher matchups because of their inherent brokeness, thus they should have more attention paid to them game 1.  Overall though, I think that argument falls to the more flexible build, since a bad opening in game 2 with a broken hand for the opponent might spell an unnecessary match loss.

[yespuhyren]

Unless you are worried about being attacked to death, then I wouldn't value Duplicant higher than Shaman.  With all the lock pieces, shaman can help lock down the game.  Against Aggro decks, we now have 4 Tangle Wire to help as much as possible.  Though I'm not likely to do this in a tournament, I might try it out just to see how it goes.

[Evenpence]

Duplicants and Maze of Ith are great against all manner of aggro and against Oath.  The only thing I guess I can really sideboard against Dragon is Tormod's Crypt and extra duplicants (Welder in play w/duplicant in graveyard is obviously amazing against dragon).

I for one, am not a very big fan of Maze of Ith.  This card has never actually won me a game, even though it has delayed me losing a couple.  Duplicant is much better, and I feel he is worth being MDed and SBed.

Against Stax Viashino Heretic and extra welder should do the job nicely and against blue based control, really most of the stuff in the maindeck is good; I guess if you really want more stuff to bring in against them, you could bring in a 4th null rod or a 4th Uba Mask from the board if you feel compelled to do so, although it's not necessary.

CS is the only blue-based control deck we have a problem with.  Fish is REALLY (REALLY) easy when you have pyroblast for their energy fluxes.

So you think that maindeck shamans are more important than maindeck duplicants?  In many ways I've valued duplicants power to randomly win games against random jank deck with lots of permanents more than gorilla shamans ability to somewhat redundantly make moxen fairly useless.  Considering it the other way though, I suppose that you could make the argument that games against decks where duplicant owns will be nearly unloseable post sideboard and that the most powerful decks (minus oath) where moxen are important are tougher matchups because of their inherent brokeness, thus they should have more attention paid to them game 1.  Overall though, I think that argument falls to the more flexible build, since a bad opening in game 2 with a broken hand for the opponent might spell an unnecessary match loss.

I think both are pretty important.  However, with 4 Tangle Wire, I would say that Duplicant is actually more important, as he's an actual answer to problems.  Shaman is just a helper of Wire, Stax, or other related locks.

Shaman is a basically another lock that just happens to be a creature, red, and 1cc.  He also has no dyssynergy with Null Rod, although he has a sweet activated ability.

Game 1 against Oath is very hard, and Games 2 and 3 are about 50-50 with a descent sideboard.
Games 1, 2, and 3 against Slaver, however, are near impossible.

Unless you are worried about being attacked to death, then I wouldn't value Duplicant higher than Shaman. With all the lock pieces, shaman can help lock down the game. Against Aggro decks, we now have 4 Tangle Wire to help as much as possible. Though I'm not likely to do this in a tournament, I might try it out just to see how it goes.

It depends on the meta.  In my meta, Duplicant is absurdly more important than Shaman.

Are you going up to 4 Wires now?  I am very content with our list, however, I have the following sideboard which has been VERY VERY good to me:

4 Fiery Temper
3 Pyroblast  (energy flux no more)
3 Viashino Heretic
3 Sphere of Resistance (tech!)
2 Duplicant

I just went 12-0 in a local tournament, every game on the DRAW!!!!!!!!    With this build.  I even fought through ENERGY FLUX to win.  This is by far my favorite build of Ubawire so far.  I love the SB more than you can imagine.

6-0 in the swiss, 6-0 in the single elim.  Never won the die roll, never lost a game.  I went up against:
Some kind of dredge/reanimation deck centering round Sundering Titan and Triskelion.
Grow-A-Tog
5c Stax
Fish
Drain TPS
and Gifts.

Arguably my best matchups, however.  No Slaver or Oath.

[sean1i0]

Congrats on the win, Evenpence.  I'm been doing some thinking on the tangle wire/uba mask/gorilla shaman/duplicant issue.  I think the reason that I've been wanting 4 tangle wires in the deck is because I was evaluating null rods incorrectly, as strange as that sounds.  It came from when I played 5c stax:  In that deck, tangle wire was absurd on the draw, but sphere of resistance, relatively, sucked, therefore, 4 tangle wire, I believe, was the right number to maximize the number of times I could do something useful on the draw; in ubastax, however, we have null rod, which is, by the way, one of the main things that drew me away from 5c.  Null rod is really just as good on the draw as tangle wire is against the powered decks.  Therefore, leaving the tangle wire number at 3 to allow increased flexibility definitely should be the correct move.

As far as uba mask, well when I started thinking about it, I realized something I already knew, but never really took the time to stop and think about:  Crucible + Bazaar is about the same amount of card advantage and should still equal a game win if unanswered.  In a similar fashion to the argument I had just concluded with myself about tangle wire, I concluded that dropping the 4th uba mask is also the right move at this time.

Also, evenpence, have you had any trouble with oath, since you don't have any maze of ith in your sideboard? 

[sundering titan]

Hi,

Thanks for the reply!

I will add my 2 cents (im not a very experienced player so maybe it makes not that sense).

I was wondering what do you think about having 4 blood moon on the sideboard.
I think this is actually quite good vs those decks not relying on red (like Oath)
It hurts us (basically you get heavily delayed) but it makes impossible for Oath player to win the game (if you play blood moon at the very beginning). You still can play your game (you lose an average of 2 turns in the worst case).
Blood moon + nrod severely damages mana base of your oponent.
I think it can be pretty good against Oath and maybe Gifts and some random decks.

I think Oath is Ubastax worst match up.

Another question I have is why you have never considered to have Words of war in the sideboard (instead of fiery temper). Its a great source of damage and you can tap it to tangle wire (and sack it to smokestack). The fact is single red helps you to play it early, and having bazaar around helps you to deal huge amounts of damage.

Im planning to have 2-3 in the sideboard. Maybe 1 MD can make sense (replacing 1 shaman).

@ Evenpence
When  sideboarding against Oath, what do you take out to replace for sideboard material?
For example :

Your latest build (3 nrod, 2 shaman, 2 dups)

Sideboard
4 fiery temper
3 jesters cap
3 Pyroblast
3 viashino heretic
2 dup

What do you take out and in? I never know what is the best thing to take out and what is the reasoning behind.
+ 3 JC
+ 2 dup
- 2 shaman
- 3 ???

I think the hardest part of this deck is to sideboard in the right way (with full understanding of what and why you are doing it )
I would appreciate as many comments as possible about the sideboarding strategy, since this is a key issue.

Thanks!!!!

[sundering titan]

I forgot this question :

As far as I understand if you have in play

Uba + Bazaar + Words of War

You can deal 6 damage each turn without discarding (if no hand) right??
This puts your opponent on a heavy clock....

Uba + 2 Bazaar + Words of War == 10 damage/turn
Uba + Bazaar + 2 Words of War == 12 damage/turn

...as long as you have the mana (**)

You kill him in 2 turns!!!! and you can start the massacre the same turn you play WOW.

This is good against every single deck jeje

WOW is great to clear out welders from the board and other species.... and has synergies with Tangle Wire and Smokestack and Bazaar and Uba and our thin red mana base

I am not sure if WOW has more synergies with Spheres than Nrod (because of **). Nrod nullifies your artifact mana base. It would be another reason to have 3 SOR MD instead of 3 Nrod, but these are big words jeje On the other hand, SOR could delay your WOW 1 turn... so you never know.

Could it be the right decision to play MD :

UbaWar v1.0

4 crucible/smokestack
3 uba
3 Wire
3 SOR or 3 nrod (most probably 3 nrod)
3 WOW
1 dup
1 trinisphere
0 shaman

3 nrod or 3 SOR in the sideboard.

Another good thing for this build is that Chalice 1 is much better now.

Maybe this MD is absurd but i think definitely it makes sense to have WOW  in the sideboard.

Please correct me if im wrong.

Thanks!!

[yespuhyren]

@everpence

Are you going up to 4 Wires now?

I was just saying that I would use that configuration in theory IF I was going to run 4 uba and 4 wire.  I really do believe that we have the best setup at the moment, and unless someone can prove otherwise I will be running this, although a small difference in our SB's

@sundering titan

You don't need uba in that mix.  You can just skip the bazaar draws with words of war to do it.  I still don't think I'd run it, however, as you have to remove locks to play it, and its highly mana intensive.

Blood moon is just terrible.  It stops your ability to cast things with Workshop, draw cards with Bazaar, strip them with wastes/strip, and ping with B-Ring.  Its absolutlely horrible for this deck.

Against Oath, all I do is

-2 Shaman
+2 Duplicant

[Evenpence]

Also, evenpence, have you had any trouble with oath, since you don't have any maze of ith in your sideboard? 

Oath is a rough matchup, particularly game 1.  I don't think I personally need the Mazes in the SB, but I've probably played more games against Oath with Ubastax than anyone, ever.  It's all about delaying with welder/duplicant, and always making them think you have a duplicant in your hand.

If you can get six mana for duplicant out, or just to give the threat of duplicant, (or if you actually have duplicant!) often times Oath builds won't Oath right away.  Make sure they know how your deck works before you play them!!!  You want a Oath player who KNOWS you play Duplicant so they don't oath the angel up.

If they never oath the angel up and let you draw into Duplicant, this is 10x better than them actually playing the Angel when you have a Duplicant in your hand, because of the following:

They have two counters in their hand, one for Dups, one for Welder.  They also don't know if you'll be playing Maze yet.

I put a singleton Maze in the SB against Oath decks to show them that I "side Maze in," to which they usually think I'm siding 4 in and just slowrolling them, so they never Oath up, fearing you have Duplicant, or the most feared Welder/Duplicant, with the ability to either draw into a maze, or you actually have one in your hand.

Most people in my meta know that I do this.  However, sometimes to throw them off, I WILL run 4 Maze in the SB and actually screw them over with what they fear.

It's all about winning the mental war when it comes to Oath players, because if you remove their win conditions, that is IT for them.  You have to make them think you always have an answer, even when you don't.  It's totally a game of poker.

Which is also why I prefer Jester's Cap to Duplicant, and run them in my SB in my meta.  My actual SB in my VERY Oath heavy meta is this:
4 Fiery Temper
3 Pyroblast (now, anyway)
3 Viashino Heretic
2 Jester's Cap
2 Duplicant
1 Maze of Ith

So no, _I_ don't have a problem with Oath, but Ubastax does.

@ Titan

WOW used to be in one of Vroman's old builds.  We've strayed away from brokenness after our Grubastax experiment (adding green to the deck, which is FAR more broken than WOW).

Blood Moon screws you over, as most of your powerful cards are lands.

[Mantis]

Has anyone ever tried Mindslaver in Uba Stax? I would think it's way better than Duplicant but let the experts decide here.

[vroman]

slaver requires non-shop mana. so definite no.

I played in 37 person lotus tourney in Chicago this weekend. Ive barely played at all in the last 2 weeks and I definitely made subtle mistakes that cost me games. though I learned a lot about new tech decks and how they try to maneuver. of course, I should have made an effort to discover these things prior to round 1 of the tournament. I went 2-0, against Gifts both times, and then lost 3 rounds in a row (grimlong, stax aggro?, and Roland Chang). I pulled off a meanginless rd 6 victory against old, old TPS; finishing w a pitiful 3-3. In my meager defense, all 3 of my winning opponents made top 8, and my rd1 opponent went on to win a side event. lots of steep pairings. I dont forgive myself though, bc your deck must still be able to win, w the built in assumption all your opponents will play perfectly.
Against Erik Becker Grimlong (against whom I am basicaly 0-infinite):
Although Becker had a large clutch of mana on the table, I assumed I had a hard lock w: 2x tangle wire, rising smokestack, and welder to keep the tangles at constant 6-8 fades. this prevented him from ever casting anything outside of his upkeep, and smoky was racing his land drops, to keep his mana count under tangle count.
I knew he was holding rebuild at this time, but he could only cast it upkeep, and would still be tapped down helplessly through his main phase. Id be able to replay nearly every lock on my following turn, w little chance of disruption from him. however, when I was adding my 3rd soot counter, I didn't think through the situation hard enough to realize he had ONE out that would give him enough mana to go off on his next turn: tolarian academy. the interesting part is that I drew my own academy that turn. bc I already had multiple workshops on board, I skipped my land drop and held academy back in hand: to pitch to bazaar once I got up to 2 cards, hoping to dig for resistor, or win condition. if I had instead put tolarian on the table, simply to act as Chalice@Academy, Becker would truly have been locked out. signifigance of legendary rule didnt occur to me, and he floated UUU from his sacked lands, into draw step, and upon ripping his one-out Academy (or concievably having held it for awhile, and was waiting to draw some other necesary), pulled Rebuild trigger and went off for the win.
so, in addition to correctly playing locks to keep enemy's existing board in check, recognize absolutely every card they could draw to circumvent your lock, and keep these in mind when planning. In my scenario against Becker, finding an extra resistor or other lock wouldnt have mattered at that point, bc if Eric drew anything other than academy on his next turn, my CURRENT board would ensure he rapidly lose mana and get completely trapped under the lock.

I lost to a 5C stax deck that cut a few locks to run 4xJug, plus it boarded 2-3xheretic. This seems like a fantastic matchup post-board bc fiery temper owns his entire creature base. Game 1 I was lazy and overconfident, bc I had a broken open of [shop, crucible, 2x mox, 2x chalice, duplicant] on the play. after that first turn, I assumed I was guaranteed to win, and basically stopped thinking.
unfortunately I drew completely blank for a long time, not finding any wastes/bazaars/smokies. In fact my turn 1 crucible never once got me a land out of the yard, the whole long game. despite double chalice, enemy slowly developed mana the old fashioned way, one single-mana land per turn, and dropped his first threat on turn 4: useless smokestack. He followed it up w another cold smokestack the next turn. I got bored of saying draw-go, and started playing all the uninteresting lands and extra crucibles Id been stockpiling, to fill my board w expendable chaff. I justified this plan as covering the off-chance enemy was foolish enough to ramp soot. this was flagrantly incorrect, since sure enough, he was clearly not going to try to race my crucible + on board permanent advantage. Then I finally drew bazaar, but was now severely reduced in my card filtering capabilities. worst of all, I casually decided enemy will never get a creature, so just throw down empty duplicant to start beating 2/4 style. two turns later enemy tinkers away dead smoky#1 for Karn, and dead smoky#2 comes very much alive. shortly after Im the dead one. worst game Ive played in a long time. if I had held out for bazaar, Id have a full grip of cyclables, to finaly hit some board control, like maybe duplicant?

I got Heretic on the table against both the stax-aggro deck, and Changstax the next round. Both times heretic was killed before it got haste, via plowshares, and topdeck wasteland on my only red source, respectively. Im going to try Shattering Spree.

Tanglewire is indeed exceptionaly good. I am certainly going up to 4. For example, against TPS rd6, enemy mulled to 5 and dropped Usea + crypt + tinker -> dsteel. I had [shop, 2xtangle, chalice, 2xwaste, strip] and top decked bazaar. Thats right, my opening 7 by themselves, kept both his mana and colosus useless concievably for the next EIGHT turns, thanks to chalice@0 and strip effects. continualling bazaaring finally found me welder and red source after only 6 turns though. tangles a great top deck, almost never dead. if they can tap down 4 permanents and still execute their strategy that turn, your probably already too far behind to win.

Im going to run this:
47 standard
4 tangle
3 uba
2 rod
2 dup
2 monkey
side
4 ftemper
4 shatter spree
3 mazith
2 dup
2 rod

thanks to Roland for trading me Chaos Orb-Trinisphere. enjoy Buddy Gerrard Null Rod

[sean1i0]

So, vroman, you don't think that cutting the 2nd gorilla shaman is better than cutting the 3rd null rod?  I've seen both of them win me so many games, but honestly, I've seen null rod cut off more broken bullshit from happening and gorilla shaman be stuck in my hand b/c of chalice @ 1 far more times than I've had null rod stuck in my hand (if that's ever happened).

Maybe I'm just vastly overevaluating the effectiveness of having null rod in game 1, but after hearing the gifts and cs players talk, too, I have to believe that my memories aren't just overexaggerating its value.  Your thoughts?

[vroman]

game 2/3 I can go up to 4 nrod

[Evenpence]

I just played in a smaller tourney (although not much) and went undefeated in the swiss (again!!!) and top 4ed, losing to a teammate with Gifts.  (He will straight up tell you he had the most broken-ass topdecks anyone can ever recieve from a gifts deck in game 2).  Plus my deck crapped out on me, and I didn't get a single welder or bazaar in any of the games I lost.

I like it how it is.  3 Wire / 3 Rod / 2 Shaman.  It doesn't muck things up.

Losing one match and two games in two tourneys in one weekend isn't bad though.  I can definitely support the change with numbers.  Tangle Wire has won me games like no other lock.  I can't say that about Gorilla Shaman though.

In addition to my winning spree in Vintage, I also entered a draft (I NEVER draft) and we did Guildpact/Guildpact/Guildpact because we were short on Ravnica.  I pulled a Burning-Tree Shaman first pick first pack, and a Foil Quicken FPSP!  On top of this, I draft the most broken deck ever, with 22 creatures, gruul war plow (which I never see), and a gruul signet (which I never see).  I draft like 3 of the guys that have the 2R: can't block and 2G: must block abilities, and 2 skybreakers which go the distance.  I also get a Borgheymorphus or whatever that Cyclops name is who I never see.  I basically don't see anything in my deck except for the stuff I drafted x3 of (like the tin roof hooligans and the guys who when they come into play, you pick a color and he gives you a color, and the guy who can't be blocked by anything without flying).

I have NO SPELLS aside war plow and my two-on-color signet.

Basically, I completely own the draft, and go 6-0 in games, and then split with my friend Mike (my teammate who beat me in the Vintage tournament and won the whole thing!)  So he had a good night too.

If I were to go up to 4 Wire, (which I don't think I am, although I do love drawing it and seeing it in my opening seven) I would cut a monkey, not a null rod.  The board needs those null rod slots, and I would prefer chalice at 1 to get better than my null rod count to get worse.

I would probably take out a Duplicant after I thought about it for longer, though.  I'm not really sure what I'd do, but I like 3/3/2.

The ability to go up to 4 Null Rods, I believe, does not outweigh the fact that you don't have 3 in game 1. 

I would MUCH rather have this list:

MD:
3 Null Rod
3 Tangle Wires
SB:
1 Tangle Wires

THAN THIS LIST:

MD:
2 Null Rod
4 Tangle Wire
SB:
2 Null Rod

You can see how your sideboard goes down by a free slot when you only run 2 Null Rod MD.  I don't even have a Tangle Wire in my SB, because I like having alot of slots open for different matchups.

Vroman:  1 Tangle Wire side is tech, because you can side it in on the draw.  Null Rod, I feel, is much stronger.  While Tangle Wire slows decks down, Null Rod just demolishes them.  Our matchups against combo are definitely getting worse by taking spheres out for wires, and I would very much prefer Null Rod in most matchups.

Oh, BTW about the tournament:

I actually moved Null Rods to the board to play Karn and Triskelion x2.  Needless to say, I lost game 1 against Gifts, and it cost me the crown.  However, it moved me through the swiss VERY easily, and I never sided Null Rod in during the entire swiss!  Thank you janky aggro players!

[prometheus829]

On a possibly unrelated note, I've been trying to find a replacement for duplicant in the oath matchup.  "Hope you draw it and they don't counter" never cut it for me- even with welders.

It seems like portcullis would do the same thing better.  If they hapen to give you two guys, then they will never oath as long as it's on the table.  And if you have welder, you can prevent their guys from ever entering play in the first place.  I do confess, though, that multiple copeis are necessary to prevent a removal spell from winning the game.

I've also had some success with the 'play karn and race' method, but that seems about as sketchy as the dupe plan.

[Evenpence]

On a possibly unrelated note, I've been trying to find a replacement for duplicant in the oath matchup. "Hope you draw it and they don't counter" never cut it for me- even with welders.

It seems like portcullis would do the same thing better. If they hapen to give you two guys, then they will never oath as long as it's on the table. And if you have welder, you can prevent their guys from ever entering play in the first place. I do confess, though, that multiple copeis are necessary to prevent a removal spell from winning the game.

I've also had some success with the 'play karn and race' method, but that seems about as sketchy as the dupe plan.

Duplicant is a threat that Oath A) needs to have a counterspell for B) is pretty much game over with welder.

Portcullis is neither of these, and requires there to be two creatures in play to be effective, meaning that you need have already resolved welder (so duplicant is amazing now) or have given you TWO! spirit tokens before you play Portculis.  The only time that portcullis could possibly be better than Duplicant is Game 1 when you've played Shaman AND Portcullis and they don't have bounce OR a counter (for the portcullis as they're not going to counter shaman).

Portcullis is strictly worse than Duplicant in every example except for that one, which will come up approximately 0% of the time.

Playsets of Duplicants and Mazes are by far the best strategy against Oath, and heavily tilt the matchup in your favor if you run 2 Duplicants in the SB and 4 Mazes in the SB, as it's near impossible for them to win games 2 and 3.  However, that eats up SIX!!!!  Of your sideboard slots, and I love my SB slots.

A resolved Jester's Cap is better because it straight up wins you the game.  However, Oath has counterspells.  If my opponent is playing Oath, and he does not know what I'm playing, and I'm playing with a Cap sideboard, I will do the following:

RESOLVE WELDER.  A resolved Welder means that you can bazaar away a Jester's Cap, weld it into play and activate for the win.  A resolved Welder also means that your opponent will be VERY cautious to activate Oath until he gets some kind of bounce.

Oath decks hate Duplicant.  It's a huge fear of theirs.  They certainly fear it more than they do Maze of Ith.  Maze of Ith is good in the Oath matchup because it allows you to duplicant one of their guys and then Maze the other one until you find another duplicant, a welder, or just win the game by recurring b-rings if they've gone through all their wastelands OR you get multiple mazes on the board.

If you want a 4 mana artifact that wins against Oath, go with Jester's Cap.  It's been straight up amazing for me.

[meadbert]

Perhaps Gamble could work as a bad crop rotation.  The most likely target would usually be Strip Mine, but against Oath you could Gamble for a Duplicant if you had a welder out.

[Evenpence]

Gamble has already been discussed and tested, mostly by Vroman, but also by myself and others.  We've found Gamble to be absolutely horrible.  You need a crucible or welder in play for the card to be worthwhile.

[Koala]

I have been thinking about making the curent version into 5-color. I personally think that it whould improve the deck so much. With bazaar + Uba we each turn can dig for our bombs or fattys + we can shearch. We have a much more viable sideboard, especially against Oath. It already have been shown that it might work, even with an clearly not optimal list (not saying that mine is :
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=15562

Here's my curent list:

5-color Uba Stax:

lands and manabase - 29 cards:
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad
4 City Of Brass/Tempo ice brigde, whats best?
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
9 mana acelerators

Creatures - 9
4 Goblin Welder
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan
2 Gorilla Shaman

Locks -15:
4 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Trinisphere
3 Uba Mask
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Tangle Wire

Bombs - 4:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Balance
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker

Sideboard:
3 Choke
3 Ray of Relevation
3 Viashino Heretic
2 Darkblast
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Seal Of Cleansing

We lose:
4 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountian (we lose some land stability, but will it really hurt us? I don't think so)
3 Null Rod (clearly a problem, but I think the bombs we can replace it with are better)
some SORs (good card but couldn't fit it in)
2 Duplicant (who cares, we got better fattys)

We get:
Karn and Trisk (both explosive creatures that i really think would improve the deck)
Balance (think you know this one)
Tutor and recall (think you know this one)
Tinker (always good )
and a much more viable sideboard with much more metagame choises.

Open for suggestions.

[Komatteru]

I'll post my replies specific to Tangle Wire from my Fundamental Nature of Stax thread in here.

Evenpence's post is here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27452.msg406885#msg406885.

I strongly disagree with you, however, on two points:
1)  Cutting a Bazaar for a Sphere in any possible metagame.  I can't imagine why cutting off 25% of your draw engine would be useful.
2)  Tangle Wire not being good in Ubastax.  Tangle Wire is absolutely broken with A) shaman B) ramped stax C) trinisphere.  Tangle Wire is used for:  A) Forcing threats through drains B) tapping out aggro, so it functions like an answer C) mopping up enemy mana and threats on the draw to get yourself rolling.

With the philosophy of "Let's put them on lock down so they can't do anything" Tangle Wire accomplishes many of the problems which Sphere sometimes only adds to.

I have NEVER, and I will repeat NEVER have been sorry to see Tangle Wire in my hand.  It's good in nearly every instance, and can be particularly game-breaking even in your opening hand on the play, as you can think many turns ahead to decide if you want to keep it.  I have kept some opening hands simply because of Tangle Wire, and exceptionally on the draw.  When I am on the draw, the two-card combination I want to see most is workshop-tangle wire.  It gives me a double time walk much like Trinisphere, and makes my opponent not have drain mana for those turns, where I can play multiple artifact threats (locks).

It can replace Shaman completely (which is why I considered adding it in), or can work very well with him (my current build).  Wires can replace Spheres or work well with them (something I see you've done).

Duplicant serves as an answer in the deck to problems, which is why I hesitate dropping below 2.  Ubastax has problems when a threat hits the board, but these 'problems' are almost exclusively creatures.  Artifact-hating Enchantments are about the only thing that Duplicant cannot be an answer for with regard to 'what wrecks Ubastax?'

Ubastax's goal is to heavily disrupt right off the bat (Tangle Wire helps specifically with this) and then play game-breaking locks.  Vroman has ushered in the change, wanting to go up to 4.  I agree with him completely.

We're no where near done with this deck, however, and will continue to make changes.  Yesphuryen has a new configuration of lock pieces with which I'm trying out soon and will get back to him on the results.

I think there are alot of problems with the build that you've tried, which might explain some of your complaints about Ubastax.

The metagame I anticipated was a lot of secret.dec, which, unfortunately, I feel inclined to respect the wishes of its creator and continue the trend of keeping it secret.  I will say that Uba Mask would be disasterous to play against that deck, which is why I ran so low.  SoR #4 is also highly needed in combating secret.dec (it's really the only card in Uba Stax that poses a problem in and of itself), and something had to go, and it ended up having to be Bazaar.  The only viable path to victory vs. this deck is locking the board completely (since you can't outsavage it unless you've got 5c Stax), and drawing cards is infinitely less important.

However, just changing a few of the cards around doesn't change the point I'm trying to make.  You say yourself: Tangle Wire allows you to play out more "artifact threats."  However, once you get to a point, cards cease to be threats.  the deck runs many redundant cards, and if you have Chalice for 0 out there, Null Rod becomes redundant in some matches (except for stopping the dreaded Sol Ring, which tends to beat Stax).  For instance, Gifts really doesn't care if you play Null Rod once you've got down Chalice.  For a lot of decks, Wasteland is a one-time threat, and the Crucible/Waste lock doesn't actually do anything.  Crucible mearly becomes a way for you to use Bazaar a little more, but given the redundant nature of threats, a lot of decks just don't care about your abusing Bazaar unless you find like Strip Mine.  They'll simply wait for you to play something they care about -- usually Smokestack, and then react to that.

Thus, Tangle Wire lets you play some more things that may not even matter.  Playing the Gifts match will show you that.

At one point in game one he had down Null Rod, Sphere of Resistance, Tangle Wire AND Crucible/Wasteland and I still won through because he had absolutely no clock.  I just sat around, playing basic lands until I had Rebuild, used Rebuild so I could resolve some spells, then an Echoing Truth a few turns later to remove the Null Rod again for Tinker/Colossus to come online and end the game.

I also had Trinisphere in there too. 

---------------------------------

As a general reflection on Uba Stax, I think the lack of clock is problematic.  Games that go long are often won by the player of higher skill, as it gives more chances to outplay your opponent, but Uba Stax makes an exception to that.  For most of a long game, you're not really playing with an opponent.  Your assembling locks and things and trying to close out your opponent.  You're making decisions, but your opponent largely is not.  He's sitting there looking for basics and fetches and then an answer for what you've got going.  That doesn't require your opponent to make any decisions, let alone difficult or subtle ones.  Small mistakes with Uba Stax can come back to haunt you, as they allow an opponent to draw out.  you have limited decision trees, but you have a lot of little things going on, and the deck requires you to be perfect for too long.  Furthermore, mistakes tend to rebound much later, as an incorrect Bazaar activation on turn 5 might not come back to haunt you until turn 15 -- and seeing that far forward is nigh imposssible.  If you only had to play perfectly for 15 turns instead of 25 (and 15 is a LOT), you'd be a lot better off.

[Harlequin]

In consideration of maindeck AND sideboard:

Is anyone out there running Shattering Spree or good ol fassion Rack n Ruin?  Or do you put all your eggs in the creature basket with some combination of Welder & Monkey & Heratic.  Clearly between that triple-threat you can handle basically artifact printed ... does this mean targeted instant destruction is simply outdated? 

Esp if your going to run Tanglewire and your in the mirror where your going to be tapping mostly down durring your upkeep.  It seem like the two-for-one power of RnR or the X-for-one superpower of shattering spree would be more useful.  I guess all I'm asking ... Is Heratic strictly better than Instant speed destruction for the mirror?

[benthetenor]

Simply answered, yes.

Cards like Rack and Ruin or Shattering Spree are devastating, but they pull no weight when it comes to trying to win the Welder war. Having an active Viashino Heretic means that your opponent can no longer pull off effective welds on his side of the board without access to a second Welder. Rack and Ruin will occasionally have this ability, but the fact that Uba Mask is in the deck makes non-permanent answers sub-par in general, as well as that, while Rack and Ruin has a surprise factor, it is a one-shot effect, whereas Heretic is a constant threat.

And unless I'm mistaken, Shattering Spree isn't an instant, so it provides absolutely no help against Welders. While it can occasionally offer insane x-for-1's, even though Uba Stax is mono-red, it has a hard time generating much red mana past the first.

[yespuhyren]

I rarely get more than 2 red mana on the board in any given game unless its extremely late game and i'm just playing them all from the grave.  In that case shattering spree would be good, but earlier it isn't so hot.

[vroman]

I can confidently say shattering spree is indeed the artifact destruction of choice for uba vs RandomStax. Its incredibly flexible and immediate. Ive had way too many games where heretic got killed before acquiring haste. rack and ruin is just as dificult to cast, counterable, and locked in with a specific function. Shattering Spree can be a very effcient 1for1, costing only 1 red, against their most problematic artifact. and then of course if reigns supreme w 3+ red sources on board. slowrolling spree until they have a lot of juicy targets out is frequently worth suffering a little to a fatty or lock piece. against slaver, double-targeting makes it effectively untargetable against their few win conditions.

[Evenpence]

Thus, Tangle Wire lets you play some more things that may not even matter.  Playing the Gifts match will show you that.

And I suppose you've played the Gifts match far more than I have.  Seriously, I don't lose to Gifts.  I've lost to it twice in a tournament, in the 7+ times I've faced it, and both of those times were to my friend Mike, who knows my deck in and out, and knows exactly how I play.  Vroman doesn't lose to Gifts either.  Using certain cards and in a certain order takes a long time to learn how to use, especially and particularly in the Gifts matchup.

Don't think I'm angry at you or anything like that, but when you say something like, "Playing the Gifts match will show you that," can come across just arrogant.  When I first read that, I immediately thought, "JD has been playing this deck for MAYBE two weeks, and I've been playing it for six+ months, and he wants to educate me on how to play it?"  I don't think you meant it in that way, and I know you respect me (or at least that's the impression I've always got), and I don't want to change that.

If I were to tell you about the Belcher matchup with Gifts, and say how resolving Welder is crap against Gifts, and you should just go for the straight up seven-mana belcher play and activation, you'd probably look at me with googly eyes.  In the same way, I'm looking at you, because resolving an early game Tangle Wire, especially turn 1 on the draw, is huge against Gifts, even though it itself does not win you the game, it heavily contributes to doing so, buying you at least a semi-time walk, and probably two semi-time walks.  If I don't have any other buisness in my hand, why did I just play that Tangle Wire?

EVERY lock in the deck is good against Gifts if played correctly.  Tangle Wire is the strongest of early game locks, aside (obviously) Trinisphere or Smokestack, because it allows you to sidestep drain.

I play Tangle Wire so I can play Welder or Smokestack.  If the mana is right, I can go, three mana-tangle wire, red-mana welder, go.  Then, next turn, I can weld in the tangle wire, say go, and play smokestack the following turn.  Welder is a very important part of Tangle Wire, and can sometimes lead to a hard lock.  Especially if you have wire in play, wire in GY, crucible in play, strip (or sometimes even wasteland) in GY.  It doesn't need to lead to a hard lock, though - that's not what Tangle Wire is for.

Once again man, don't think I'm angry with you or anything like that.  I respect you alot.

At one point in game one he had down Null Rod, Sphere of Resistance, Tangle Wire AND Crucible/Wasteland and I still won through because he had absolutely no clock.  I just sat around, playing basic lands until I had Rebuild, used Rebuild so I could resolve some spells, then an Echoing Truth a few turns later to remove the Null Rod again for Tinker/Colossus to come online and end the game.

I also had Trinisphere in there too. 

You need a Welder or a Smokestack in there.  That kind of setup is not the norm.  You have no locks that matter to mass bounce, which is why he was able to build up to 4+ basics and play rebuild.

We took out Sphere with Tangle Wire, as Tangle Wire is one-sided, and generally just straight up superior to sphere.  In this example, however, it doesn't really matter, as you didn't have anything of relevance and was going to lose regardless of whether you had a big artifact fatty or not.  No card aside Active Welder or Ramped Smokestack could save you here.

As a general reflection on Uba Stax, I think the lack of clock is problematic. Games that go long are often won by the player of higher skill, as it gives more chances to outplay your opponent, but Uba Stax makes an exception to that. For most of a long game, you're not really playing with an opponent. Your assembling locks and things and trying to close out your opponent. You're making decisions, but your opponent largely is not. He's sitting there looking for basics and fetches and then an answer for what you've got going. That doesn't require your opponent to make any decisions, let alone difficult or subtle ones. Small mistakes with Uba Stax can come back to haunt you, as they allow an opponent to draw out. you have limited decision trees, but you have a lot of little things going on, and the deck requires you to be perfect for too long. Furthermore, mistakes tend to rebound much later, as an incorrect Bazaar activation on turn 5 might not come back to haunt you until turn 15 -- and seeing that far forward is nigh imposssible. If you only had to play perfectly for 15 turns instead of 25 (and 15 is a LOT), you'd be a lot better off.

You usually lose if it's a long game, unless, of course, they're making you play it out and you have to see their life total go 19, 18, 17, 15, 13, 11, 8, 5, 1, 0.  In the rare instance when you don't lose when it's a long game, you somehow miraculously get out smokestack mid-game and eat up your opponent's board.  Welder also helps if you cycle tangle wires, and when he gets too many lands, start bringing out multiple tangle wires, as you should also have more permanents that are able to be tapped.  That's another miracle way to win.

Tangle Wire is also worse for you, JD, in your build, because you don't have Mox Monkey to eat up moxes so they can't tap them, and must tap lands.  Generally, I think your build is inferior to the current build, because your first complaint on the Tangle Wire thread is very accurate when it comes to your build:  "you have too many locks", and your locks don't incorporate natural synergy.  3 Bazaar doesn't help.    While you say that people are just throwing out lists, and not talking about what works with what, I think your list is a perfect example of that, unfortunately. 

Playing perfectly with Ubastax is really not hard to do if you've been playing the deck for any extended amount of time.  (again man, not trying to bash you here, just making a point)  The hardest thing in the deck (probably) is knowing when to use bazaar, and what to discard from it.  Once you know your deck well enough, you can do it like clockwork.  A bazaar mistake haunts you almost immediately, unless you don't realize it.

Mastering the deck is hard, but can be done with a good amount of practice.  You have to have a knack for long, drawn out games, and have to be willing to sit down for around an hour with an opponent, doing alot of junk on your turn and not getting bored on his.  You also have to pay attention to the steps VERY carefully, yours and your opponent's alike.

One of the things I like about the deck is how involved I am in the gameplay.  I'm soaking up everything that's going on, and am usually 10x more aware of the gamestate than my opponent.  It's also sweet to be noticed by passer-bys when they see you doing 20x things on your turn, saying go, and just watching as your opponent looks at his hand, looks at the board, looks at his hand again, plays a land, thinks for a minute, then says go.

In consideration of maindeck AND sideboard:

Is anyone out there running Shattering Spree or good ol fassion Rack n Ruin?  Or do you put all your eggs in the creature basket with some combination of Welder & Monkey & Heratic.  Clearly between that triple-threat you can handle basically artifact printed ... does this mean targeted instant destruction is simply outdated? 

Esp if your going to run Tanglewire and your in the mirror where your going to be tapping mostly down durring your upkeep.  It seem like the two-for-one power of RnR or the X-for-one superpower of shattering spree would be more useful.  I guess all I'm asking ... Is Heratic strictly better than Instant speed destruction for the mirror?

Heretic is instant speed destruction for the mirror.  Shattering Spree is a sorcery, which, in my opinion, makes it worse.  I think Vroman's the only one of us that actually like Spree better than Heretic.