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Godder
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« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2006, 08:35:12 pm » |
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Not every deck is designed to run bounce spells maindeck which is literally one of a few answers to colossus. People still run creatures as win conditions in type 1? Bastards! |
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That's what I like about you, Laura - you're always willing to put my neck on the line. |
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Komatteru
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Joseiteki
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« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2006, 11:08:09 pm » |
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Not every deck is designed to run bounce spells maindeck which is literally one of a few answers to colossus. People still run creatures as win conditions in type 1? Bastards! If you're referring to the classic "run removal for God's sake" argument, even running 4 bounce/removal spells doesn't guarantee that you can deal with a turn 2 Tinker (there's about as many tutors) every time, and running 4+ spells to deal with one stupid card is pretty distorting. It's all moot. They'll never ban DSK. |
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pyr0ma5ta
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More cowbell
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« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2006, 05:30:40 am » |
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Agreed, the big dumb dude is a fixture. It's tinker that's the problem, anyway, not the big dude.
Also, what happened to the quote that was in your profile, JD? I'm sad.
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Team Mishra's Jerkshop: Mess with the best, die like the rest.
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Evenpence
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« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2006, 01:39:38 pm » |
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No card, aside those that have already been banned will probably ever be banned.
Yawgmoth's Will is the best candidate for banning, however, with Tinker being a distant 2nd place.
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[17:25] Desolutionist: i hope they reprint empty the warrens as a purple card in planar chaos |
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Dozer
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« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2006, 04:57:57 pm » |
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even running 4 bounce/removal spells doesn't guarantee that you can deal with a turn 2 Tinker (there's about as many tutors) every time, [...] One reason to leave Personal Tutor restricted. Will is the other. People who say PT is weak underestimate it, in my opinion. |
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a swashbuckling ninja Member of Team CAB, dozercat on MTGO MTG.com coverage reporter (Euro GPs) -- on hiatus, thanks to uni Associate Editor of www.planetmtg |
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Evenpence
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« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2006, 03:55:39 am » |
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PT gets tinker which is why it will remain restricted forever and ever.
So...
Wasn't there supposed to be some announcement March 1st?
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[17:25] Desolutionist: i hope they reprint empty the warrens as a purple card in planar chaos |
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Chill79
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« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2006, 09:46:54 am » |
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They have forgotten B/R-list  ??? |
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Collecting Pygmy Razorbacks: 446 total(17*AP,47*Foil,382regular)
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Pyromaniac
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« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2006, 03:26:02 pm » |
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well, it aint online yet, so they might have  |
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It's hard to be religious, when certain people don`t get incinerated by lightning...
On another note, while Ancestral is clearly very very good, having it in your opening is hand is not. - AmbivalentDuck
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combo_dude
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« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2006, 04:14:32 pm » |
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The thing you are typing on is a keyboard, not a cellular phone. |
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Komatteru
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Joseiteki
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« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2006, 04:21:00 pm » |
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I don't really understand why they're banning cards in Mirrodin block 2 years after the big season, but w/e.
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Moxlotus
Teh Absolut Ballz
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Where the fuck are my pants?
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« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2006, 04:27:12 pm » |
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I don't really understand why they're banning cards in Mirrodin block 2 years after the big season, but w/e.
Obviously for the Block Party tournament at GenCon!!! Was there ever a Block Constructed season with Mirrodin? |
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Evenpence
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« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2006, 04:42:40 pm » |
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Wow.
NOTHING in Vintage came off?
Frantic Search and Voltaic Key didn't come off?
Wow.
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[17:25] Desolutionist: i hope they reprint empty the warrens as a purple card in planar chaos |
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The Atog Lord
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« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2006, 07:17:35 pm » |
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Was there ever a Block Constructed season with Mirrodin? Oh yes. 12th in New Jersey, running Atog maindeck!! |
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The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
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forests failed you
De Stijl
Adepts
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Venerable Saint
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« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2006, 03:10:15 am » |
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No card, aside those that have already been banned will probably ever be banned.
Yawgmoth's Will is the best candidate for banning, however, with Tinker being a distant 2nd place.
I would actually really like to see Darksteel Colossos banned. Seriously, I would really like to see that. |
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Grand Prix Boston 2012 Champion
Follow me on Twitter: @BrianDeMars1
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Joblin Velder
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« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2006, 03:16:32 am » |
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No card, aside those that have already been banned will probably ever be banned.
Yawgmoth's Will is the best candidate for banning, however, with Tinker being a distant 2nd place.
I would actually really like to see Darksteel Colossos banned. Seriously, I would really like to see that. QFT |
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Team Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday: I will pee all over myself then we'll see who will end up looking bad.
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Evenpence
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« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2006, 03:26:03 am » |
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Well. I would too, but it's not going to happen because it doesn't unbalance the metagame right now. Gifts is still beaten most of the time by Ubastax. Even with an early tinker, I still have goblin welder. Welder kicks ass.
I'm going to try to fit twincast into ubastax.
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[17:25] Desolutionist: i hope they reprint empty the warrens as a purple card in planar chaos |
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vroman
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« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2006, 04:25:05 am » |
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disapointing to see no changes to restrict list.
definitely do not unrestrict personal tutor. I play it in my test build of Gifts and am very pleased w having another way to set up turn 2 tinker.
unrestrict library? no fucking way. theres few things more frustrating in vintage than watching enemy loping inexorably away w control of the game thanks to tapping this land every turn. (bazaar is better though. shhhh!)
frantic search doesnt look like much, but I can sense brokeness lurking. Im in no hurry to see it back in full.
unrestrict for sure
*dream halls - future sight is better. many cheaper, immediately abusable things are better.
*voltaic key - vintage community is unanimous in apathy towards this card
*mox diamond - no good for combo, nor broken in anything else.
*black vise - the amount of anti-vise fanaticism here is surprising to me. show me a deck that wants to play this card as a 4of? will stax drop real lock components for a conditional life loss engine? vintage decks are pretty good at expending their hands if need be. what is going to abuse this: stasis?
MAYBE unrestrict
regrowth - this would be a huge gift to oath, and greatly increase the viability of sex.dec and UG fish variants. but green is just so weak a color in general, it wont warp things. I think the meta could probably handle it. maybe resulting in restricting oath of druids at worst, which I wouldnt mind seeing anyway. its dangerous as a graveyard tutor, but wrong color to make me worried.
unbanning chaos orb and falling star would be easy, just erata them to choose a single target. this still makes c-orb incredibly efficient removal.
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Unrestrict: Flash, Burning Wish Restore and restrict: Transmute Artifact, Abeyance, Mox Diamond, Lotus Vale, Scorched Ruins, Shahrazad Kill: Time Vault I say things http://unpopularideasclub.blogspot.com |
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Evenpence
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« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2006, 04:30:04 am » |
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I'm gonna be in agreement with everything Vroman's said, except for Library.
If Black Vise is unrestricted, we can surely Unrestrict Library.
With all the black vise hate, I put it up alot higher than I thought it should be. However, Control would HATE Black Vise getting unrestricted.
It would suddenly make Control not so good, aggro REALLY good and Stax even better (that is a SICK SB card).
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[17:25] Desolutionist: i hope they reprint empty the warrens as a purple card in planar chaos |
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dandan
More Vintage than Adept
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« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2006, 07:14:55 am » |
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Regarding Black Vise, many older players have experienced the days of 4 Vise and don't want to repeat it. Perhaps a 1cc artifact that can do 3-10 damage is OK in today's Vintage but few want to find out. View it as an old Hannibal Lector. Sure in theory it should be safe enough to release it, there are far worse things out there than something that merely deals damage, but I wouldn't want to be the one opening the prison door.
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Playing bad cards since 1995
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Pave
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« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2006, 08:24:34 am » |
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I am curious as to exactly why many would like to see the back of Darksteel Collosus. Is it because the card is too great a hurdle for certain (namely, aggro) strategies? Or because it presents too convenient an out for control strategies? What would really change if Collosus were banned? Wouldn't another fatty (Titan, Bosh, and so on - take your pick) simply take its place?
As far as I see it, beyond Will and Tinker, the format revolves around Goblin Welder - either you use it or answer it. Why shouldn't it be restricted? Because Gifts would become too dominant?
EDIT: Chaos Orb and Falling Star should certainly see play again, in my judgement. Either errata the cards so they can automatically hit any one card or, preferably, simply allow victims to rearrange their cards however they wish upon playing or activation of the offenders. Chaos Orb would be some great maindeck catch-all in Slaver or any deck, for that matter.
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« Last Edit: March 02, 2006, 09:11:08 am by Pave »
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Harlequin
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« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2006, 09:28:47 am » |
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As far as I see it, beyond Will and Tinker, the format revolves around Goblin Welder - either you use it or answer it. Why shouldn't it be restricted? Because Gifts would become too dominant?
I think that you answered your own question with "or answer it" Every color, and even artifacts have ways to hate on welder. be it dirrect damage, -1/-1, graveyard hate, or activated ability shutdown cards (let me give a shout out to damping matrix). I'm not even going to add instant speed artifact destruction because that is not really "welder hate." When it comes to DSC you only have a handful of cards, and basically only 2 colors that can deal with it dirrectly (well 2 and 1/2 if you include the Red goblin welder). Also one of the colors lets them gain 11 life (wich is really ends up costing you the game if your aggro oriented). So your forced to run suboptimal cards in your deck to take care of ONE stinking guy. stuff like Maze, or ensnareing bridge, etc... or you have to bear down and run blue for bounce. I think if they banned DSC it would loosen up the necessity for decks to run blue, and open up some sideboard space for more general cards like RnR or shattering spree... cards that would hate on tinker -> any non-indestructable fatty. Edit: Poor ol' mono-green ... they have basically 0 answeres to DSC. I have a friend who LOVES green cards, and because of his love for green, he doesn't want to play vintage... too bad. |
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« Last Edit: March 02, 2006, 09:36:32 am by Harlequin »
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Member of Team ~ R&D ~
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dandan
More Vintage than Adept
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More Vintage than Adept
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« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2006, 09:31:48 am » |
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EDIT: Chaos Orb and Falling Star should certainly see play again, in my judgement. Either errata the cards so they can automatically hit any one card or, preferably, simply allow victims to rearrange their cards however they wish upon playing or activation of the offenders. Chaos Orb would be some great maindeck catch-all in Slaver or any deck, for that matter.
Yes, why shouldn't monoRed be able to destroy Enchantments or Blue destroy anything? I know the colour pie is hardly fairly divided in Vintage but allowing Chaos Orb would be taking the piss. |
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Playing bad cards since 1995
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Evenpence
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« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2006, 03:43:11 pm » |
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Chaos Orb is an unbelievable card if it targets one thing. I think it gets restricted too, for price concerns if nothing else.
I know Ubastax would probably run a singleton Chaos Orb. Probably not a whole lot more than that though. Singleton Chaos Orb gets rid of Energy Flux, so we don't need pyroblast in the sideboard if it's unrestricted, too.
If decks can have 4x Chaos Orb in them to destroy one target, I think Ubastax gets like 3-4 of 'em.
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[17:25] Desolutionist: i hope they reprint empty the warrens as a purple card in planar chaos |
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vroman
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« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2006, 04:34:19 pm » |
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chaos orb gets turned off by null rod
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Unrestrict: Flash, Burning Wish Restore and restrict: Transmute Artifact, Abeyance, Mox Diamond, Lotus Vale, Scorched Ruins, Shahrazad Kill: Time Vault I say things http://unpopularideasclub.blogspot.com |
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Polynomial P
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Your powerpill has worn off.
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« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2006, 04:55:36 pm » |
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Pay 3 mana for strip effects 6-9. And it would hit basics? I'll drop null rods, play Great Furnaces for infinite Chaos Orb recursion and some extra mox monkies to kill moxen and pithing needles..
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Team Ogre
"They can also win if you play the deck like you can't read and are partially retarded." -BC
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freakish777
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« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2006, 05:25:24 pm » |
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Grim Monolith - Not a chance. I lick my chops at the chance to play 4 Grim Monolith in Belcher. In all seriousness, that card is outrageous in Belcher. Dodges Chalices and Welds in and out of play to give 3 mana. It's been an all-star for me in Belcher, and I don't think you'd want me to have access to 4 of them.
I want you to have access to 4 Monolith's in Belcher. In all seriousness, what deck outside of Belcher runs Monolith? If you played turn 1 Monolith against any Drain based control deck, chances are its pilot isn't going to freak out and Force the Monolith. Belcher's Threat List includes: Screw Control Cards: Welder/Xantid Swarm/Duress/Defense Grid The Kill: Belcher Finding other stuff: Wheel of Fortune/etc So, my questions are: What would you cut in Belcher to fit 3 more Monolith's? How does this change the strategy of Belcher? How does this give you an edge against control (does this edge warp the meta game)? How does this give you an edge against prison (does this edge warp the meta game)? |
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Evenpence
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« Reply #56 on: March 02, 2006, 06:28:26 pm » |
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chaos orb gets turned off by null rod
Oh yeah. I hate Null Rod. Chaos Orb would probably be better than Null Rod, though as it takes out basics, as well as Oath Creatures. Chaos Orb is too good. |
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[17:25] Desolutionist: i hope they reprint empty the warrens as a purple card in planar chaos |
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Matt
Post like a butterfly, Mod like a bee.
Adepts
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Posts: 2297
King of the Jews!
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« Reply #57 on: March 02, 2006, 06:44:41 pm » |
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People, give it up. Chaos Orb and Falling Star and Contract from Below are not mechanics that have ANY place in tournament-legal Magic, at any price, at any power level. Krark's Thumb is even pushing it. I would expect to see the ace of spades legal before Chaos Orb.
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http://www.goodgamery.com/pmo/c025.GIF---------------------- SpenceForHire2k7: Its unessisary SpenceForHire2k7: only spelled right SpenceForHire2k7: <= world english teach evar ---------------------- noitcelfeRmaeT {Team Hindsight}
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Pave
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« Reply #58 on: March 02, 2006, 08:10:43 pm » |
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Chaos Orb and Falling Star...are not mechanics that have ANY place in tournament-legal Magic That is an opinion that rests on one philosophy, likely that Magic is a game of skill and not dexterity. My philosophy is different: Wizards printed the card, let me play with it. I have yet to be convinced by any argument that Chaos Orb should be banned. I played when it was legal and loved it. Arguing that Orb is 'too good' is irrelevant. That no longer seems to be a criterion for banning, and furthermore there are many better cards currently Vintage-legal. Of course Orb should be restricted, as it was before. |
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Lou
Tournament Organizers
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'it never got weird enough for me'
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« Reply #59 on: March 02, 2006, 08:19:53 pm » |
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Chaos Orb and Falling Star...are not mechanics that have ANY place in tournament-legal Magic That is an opinion that rests on one philosophy, likely that Magic is a game of skill and not dexterity. My philosophy is different: Wizards printed the card, let me play with it. I have yet to be convinced by any argument that Chaos Orb should be banned. I played when it was legal and loved it. Arguing that Orb is 'too good' is irrelevant. That no longer seems to be a criterion for banning, and furthermore there are many better cards currently Vintage-legal. Of course Orb should be restricted, as it was before. What about your opponent that is blind, or armless. And it happens, for sure. There was this guy down in Colorado Springs that was blind and he would have someone whisper to him the cards that were in his hand and the opponent would have to be very clear about the shit that was going on. It is a matter of people being able to physically handle the process of dropping the card, and sometimes they just can't. |
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Team Meandeck @louchristopher
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