[Premium Article] Monster Mash: Dredging Up Aggro in Vintage

[nataz]

I think now that you have pushed the deck into the lime-light (budget 10 proxy aggro!) it's going to need chains/duress, consistency issues non-withstanding.

The random MD hate comes in way to many forms to combat it with narrow answers, and unlike at Richmond where you had the element of surprise, drain players should at least be taking notice of Ichorid when filling their last meta-game slots.

Crypt, E-truth, and pithing needle are either MD or in the wings of many gifts and CS decklists and, if Ichorid becomes popular, there is no reason why it wouldn't push them solidly into the MD (say over darkblast/RackRuin/Mox Monkey etc.)

That being said, I still don't think the careful studies are what you want to cut. This deck totally ignores huge swaths of cards, but the cards that do have an effect, are devastating. W/o careful studies, your deck (in my opinion) leans way to hard on Bazaar. Sure, bazaar is pretty much the bee's knees, but its not like people can't adapt to combat it (see Dragon for an example), and if they manage it early game its not like you have much of a back-up plan and you pretty much have to get lucky with your Dredges (which is even harder now that you cut the last thugs).

Whatever your disruption ends up being, I still say cut the tutors and keep the studies. What you lose is twofold, 1) the ability to strip mine for tempo, and 2) Bazaar 5-7. What you gain is being less reliant on Bazaar, and less open to Bazaar targeted hate (waste, pithing needle), while still keeping a steady stream of threats.

[Smmenen]

I think the point that is getting lost in all of this is that you often only need to activate bazaar once. 

My plan to beat pithing needle is just to have already used Bazaar OR to have PUtrid Imp.  From there, Brainstorm + my draw step can take over. 

My deck isn't overly reliant on bazaar for that reason.  THat's also why you can cut careful studies. 

I would never ever cut the tutors simply because in my tournanmenbt experience they were all amazing. 

I would play one Thug and 1 Darkblast, as I said.

[A Banana]

Can I see a list? Also, I assume this plays like friggorid in extended, and I'm not sold on combo being a split. Can you really race them? Please explain.

First of all, the list is here. Second, the forum rules are here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=18027.0

-Jacob

[Nantuko Rice]

Thanks to the "vintage elite" for completely ignoring my question.

Although I see that you're deck has many different card choices and is somewhat very different, I would still like to know if your early ideas about the deck mimiced mine. You've had several months for more playtesting and I just want to know when you saw the deck as having great potential for our current metagame.

The deck became dismissed because numbers couldn't be put up so I think you were very lucky with me having poor performance.

[Gabethebabe]

Thanks to the "vintage elite" for completely ignoring my question.

What are you looking for? Credit for your earlier ideas that led to a build so different (not to say, hhm, inferior) than the one discussed now?

[thokash]

Now, I read the article, which means I read quotes such as "Brainstorm is the second best unrestricted card in the deck, after Bazaar."  I also read your argument about Brainstorm, which is certainly fair and does justify its inclusion.  What I am baffled about is why you are cutting Careful Study and leaving in Brainstorm.  When are dredge cards on top of your library better than dredge cards in the grave?  OK, it is possibly useful if you are staring down an active Crypt, but apart from that the answer is never.  Brainstorm has a few advantages, like "drawing" an extra card, being instant speed and maybe hiding cards from Duress (not sure if it affects anything really), but when you need to stick the dredge stuff that is clogging up your hand in the grave, you definately want that blue one-drop in your hand to be Careful Study.  Brainstorm only does its job AFTER you have your dredge engine going - it in no way helps the initial process except digging one card deeper for a Bazaar or Imp.  Brainstorm is better when you have Bazaar, Careful Study is better without - this seems like one of those "all or nothing" situations.  You say the deck doesn't isn't overly reliant on Bazaar, when it obviously is.

If possible, could I get your comments on a direct Careful Study vs Brainstorm argument?

[Jacob Orlove]

Although I see that you're deck has many different card choices and is somewhat very different, I would still like to know if your early ideas about the deck mimiced mine. You've had several months for more playtesting and I just want to know when you saw the deck as having great potential for our current metagame.

Jim worked on the deck for a while and then dismissed it--that was actually before Waterbury if you want to establish a timeline. Then, like Steve said in the article, about two weeks before Richmond he started to work on the deck, in particular adopting the crucial innovation of the Gro-style manabase (fewer lands, more cantrips and free disruption). We tuned it from there. We had a couple people pushing for tog/reanimate, but once we added Putrid Imp, tog was totally unnecessary and way too expensive.

[Smmenen]

Thanks to the "vintage elite" for completely ignoring my question.

Although I see that you're deck has many different card choices and is somewhat very different, I would still like to know if your early ideas about the deck mimiced mine. You've had several months for more playtesting and I just want to know when you saw the deck as having great potential for our current metagame.

The deck became dismissed because numbers couldn't be put up so I think you were very lucky with me having poor performance.

Honestly?  I never even saw your report let alone your decklist.

I saw Godot post a list on the meandeck forums, but I was really busy in Jan and Feb and didn't pay close attention.  My teammate Paul Mastriano called me on night and was gushing about his goldfishes with the deck.  I promised to put it together and test it out.  When I did, I fell in love with it and tuned up a list.

As for Brainstorm v. Careful study.

Having the two dredge cards on top of your library if completely irrellevant.  If you've brainstormed, you've already put so many cards in your gy, you have plenty of dredge there.  You'll never draw another card, so when you next dredge, they will go to your gy.

Brainstorm isn't completely dead on turn one, you can use it to dig for chalice or to fix a hand in some cases.  The botom line thoKash is that Careful Study, as amazing as that card is in theory, just isn't good enough.  You can't keep a hand on Careful Study alone, but you can keep a hand with Putrid Imp.  Careful Study is only good enough if you have Brainstorm.  If careful study said draw two and discard three, maybe....

Just test the deck out some more and you'll understand what I mean.  This isn't something that should be argued on a theoretical basis so much as determined for yourself in testing.  I stand by my statement that Brainstorm is the second best unrestricted card in the deck.   

In fact, Ancsetral Recall is often just Brainstorm 5 - or at least if feels that way.

Buehler tested against Grim Long and split becuase of Therapies and Chalices and post board Rods.  I didn't test it because I didn't expect much combo. 

[Nantuko Rice]

Not looking for credit. Looking for the developement of the deck.

So why was the deck dismissed before waterbury. Did you detect some sort of metagame change? Did you feel like there wasn't enough "tech" for the deck available at the time/thought of at the time to make it powerful?

EDIT: And if you wonder why I'm looking for the developement of the deck, it's because I feel like it's a baby to me even though I stole the idea from extended. I was toying with it ever since I saw it and now I feel like it has finally grown up, gone through changes, matured. I feel like a mother who has been seperated from it's child, reunited, recognized changes, and wondered what he's gone though.

EDIT EDIT: Wow, reading over that last post, I hope I'm not gray.

[Dante]

Steve - FYI - the MWS file linked in the article doesn't match the decklist in the article - it has 4 Togs instead of Imps.  Not sure what else is different.

[Moxlotus]

So you guys developed the deck within 3 weeks of the tournament?!?!?!  Wow--that is damn impressive.  It takes us forever to get to a decklist, although sometimes the first list is really close (I think IT ended up changing only 3 cards from initial test list to Becker's day 1 list).  Oath took months of testing before the first tournament, and then it still changed like 15 cards before we found the ideal list we like--all in all like 9 months.

[nataz]

It's not that we as a team are snubbing anyone who worked on the thing before we did, as we didn't really pay attention to it.  We do give credit where its due, but in some cases, we're not always aware of when and where it should be due, as we don't always hawk the forums looking for stuff, contrary to public opinion.  I know Nataz also worked on something of this deck as well, but I don't think anyone on the team could really tell you who had what. 

I just like seeing other people type my handle. I'm so special.

Seriously though, I've gone back and have been retesting your list. I remember thinking it was terrrrrrrible w/ togs in it, so I'm glad you guys cut it. I kept trying to figure out what I was missing, and then just decided it was wrong.

/aside
just thought I'd mention that w/ togs in the list rou are only a few slots short of being able to run FOW! I tried it, and quickly abandoned it, but it may have merit w/ a slower more tempo oriented version
/end

Segue to tempo, oh boy did I miss out on strip mine. I still think Imperial seal is ass (too slow/underwhelming), and I'm honestly not sure I even like Vamp, but I go back and forth on cropper. If cropper stays I think stripmine can be a fantastic tempo steal. Crop -> Strip is quickly becoming my fav turn 2/3 play, but I still don't love it enough to burn any other tutor on it. CIP for cropper is what pretty much breaks it b/c you can go T1 bazaar tricksy stuff, turn 2 swings + land for ashen, turn 3 another ashen, more bazaar trixies, and then play your third land (second mana producer) -> cropper->strip that turn. You can't do that w/ any other tutor w/o sacsacrificing ashen activation. That play is hard enough w/o having to play 3 land -> tutor -> pass b/c youve played your land that turn.

So yea, while I've come to appreciate cropper and strip much more, I still don't like vamp/demonic/imp, and feel like you need to keep careful study.

I'm also really curious to see how you SB, more then anythig I feel like the darkblast are outta place, and would almost always rather have wonder/massacre vs. fishies or SB in something else like Null Rod + needle vs. control slaver.

[Smmenen]

So you guys developed the deck within 3 weeks of the tournament?!?!?!  Wow--that is damn impressive.  It takes us forever to get to a decklist, although sometimes the first list is really close (I think IT ended up changing only 3 cards from initial test list to Becker's day 1 list).  Oath took months of testing before the first tournament, and then it still changed like 15 cards before we found the ideal list we like--all in all like 9 months.

Actually two weeks before.

Im really good at tuning decklists.  What can I say?

My only concern actually was I played nataz on MWS and I was very afraid that I leaked some tech from our lists to randoms I played on MWS.  I revealed my name to nataz and some guy from Europe.  Luckily, I played nataz early on in testing so we hadn't finalized a list.  I also tend to push people on my team in a direction generally through enthusiasm and energy for a particular project, even if others are dismissing it. 

[Nantuko Rice]

Thanks Mr Dizzle.

You guys have fun. I'm taking a two year hiatus.

Edit: The reason I'm taking a two year break from magic is like what Harkius says below. I just don't simply have the time to devote to magic and i don't want to play half-ass magic, so i'm just going into hibernation from the magic scene. If anything, the two year break will rejuvenate me as it has in the past.

[Smmenen]

What does that have anything to do with us?  I'm confused.

[Harkius]

I don't think that it does, Smmenen.

I think that he is just saying that he thought that the list had been inspired by him, that it was nice to see that you guys tuned it to such an awesome performance, and that he would be gone for a while, due to events that are mostly beyond his control.

His lack of posting in the near future is not b/c of any hard feelings, but because of events beyond his control, as he mentioned earlier in the thread.

Harkius

[Lunar]

I re-picked up the deck after the inspiring performance by you guys at Richmond, and a testing session with a local shop owner and his take on T1 Ichorid. I have been starting with your original list (still with 3 ghouls and 2 thugs, although I did find room for a single chain of vapor)

I had basically abandoned the deck immediatly after I had written the dredge article in the week before Waterbury (Jan) and while I had tinkered around with various builds inlcuding one a source claimed was based off yours (im guessing the one you spoke breifly about from December) and the Green Hermit Druid list that Stephane Tichadou had spoken with me about, I simply couldn't justify taking the builds to a tournament environment with combo and even drain control. While meandeck certainly werent the ones to play Ichorid first, id go as far as saying that they are probably the first ones to play a proper build. Although I do remember a 70+ player tourney in Europe (France?) where Ichorid took a top 4 spot.

As far as the deck goes, I had a question or two on playing the deck. I have had limited time to test your build thus far but ive already noticed myself getting into some trends that I only partially like (this is most likely due to myself either goldfishing or testing vs stax which is also generally goldfishing) 

Pardon me if this is mentioned in the Premium article.

How often do you find yourself actually drawing cards, as opposed to dredging most of the time. I usually find myself quickly using what was in my opening hand, then never having anything in my hand really again to actually play (this is the supposed idea behind the deck). Do you just stop dredging for a turn or so if you need an answer and hope you draw into it? What if Chain of Vapor is already in yard? Do you just keep plugging away and hope to outrace the threat? Am I just over-extending myself in hopes of a faster win?

Second question is how quickly do you generally begin dumping your library into your "hand" (yard). How differently do you do this depending on your matchup? In playing vs stax I generally have been looking for either a bazaar hand or a land/putrid/dredge hand and then just goldfishing beyond that. How much different do you play the land/putrid/dredge hands against Drain decks? Or do you play those hands at all unless you have more backup beyond that?

Pardon if these are silly questions, but im new to the deck, heh.

[Smmenen]

They aren't silly questions, but they are difficult to answer. 

As a general rule, you are only going to draw the first nine cards in your deck over the course of the game.  If you find yourself dealing with a hate card, then you adjust position and start digging for your answer.  Speed is a crucial consideration with this deck since it is an aggro deck.  Therefore, I tend to think that faster is better. 

I can't really talk about how you play against "drain decks" because each drain deck requires a different approach, both pre and post board.  In my tournament report I discuss a number of testing conclusions that hopefuly address your question in more detail.   

The best piece of advice I can give you is to test each matchup for yourself and find out what works and what doesn't. Alot depends upon particular factors.  Who is going first?  Do you have Chalice?  Did your opp mulligan?  Do you have Cabal Therapy?  There are too many factors at play to answer your questions with a broad generality.   

Although perhaps someone else would like to take a stab at it. 

[wette]

I played this deck in a 80 players tournament this weekend in Barcelona (went 5-0-2 top 10  ) with some changes:

- 4 study
- 1 thug

+1 underground sea
+1 balance
+2 chain of vapor
+1 darkblast

my side was:

4 null rod
4 pithing needle
4 ray of revelation (expecting planar voids and oath)
2 chain of vapor
1 darkblast

I agree with smmenen that studies are just not good enough, brainstorm is not only awesome to dredge but is amazing to fix your hand and find responses to hate in  matches after sideboard.

While testing i though that it was to much bazaar dependent but during the tournament i felt like i only need to bazaar once or twice so i also agree with smmenen.

but i played 3 ashen ghoul and I wont play more because it often happen that I had 2 or the 3 ghouls and I only could play 1 each turn (you don't often have 2 black mana... not even 2 mana producer lands) and usually cannot put it into play on turn 2. So i would play 5 ichorids (if i could) but no 4 ashens... what do you think about this?

Balance was just so broken that you cannot play without it, i played balance 4 times and gave me 3 matches... a must inclusion.


I was also very worried about graveyard hate, but i had no problems since I only saw tormod's and one pyrexian furnace what was easily combated with chalice needles and rods...

but what about planar void? or layline? Bouncing them is not enough to win the game (they will come into play next turn...) I included ray of revelation to fight them, thoughts?  

I only played against 2 decks that can play blockers, fish and R/w goblins, balance won me the round against fish and against goblins he kept horrible hands so he couldn't do anything... but another friend (playing the same) played against 2 fish and lost both cause their blockers slowed him and giving time to fish players to draw graveyard hate  or just play more creatures than you can...

how should you play this against aggro?

[Smmenen]

I don't know why I have to be the one asnwering all these questions, but briefly:

Ray does nothing against Leyline - which is why I didn't even test it.

Second, if you are worried about aggro (which you shoulnd't be) run Wonder and the 2 color mana base.

Third, I can't agree with less than 4 Ghoul. 

Bouncing perms is enough if you can just therapy the card back out of their hand. 

Your maindeck looks almost exactly how I'd play it except with four Ghoul. 

[Harkius]

I don't know why I have to be the one asnwering all these questions, but briefly:

Because you're Steven frickin' Menendian.

Harkius

[Chiz]

but what about planar void? or layline? Bouncing them is not enough to win the game (they will come into play next turn...) I included ray of revelation to fight them, thoughts?  

Boncing them isn't bad... Bounce it at their end of turn, activate bazaar or discard with Putrid Imp and if able Brainstorm to dredge a lot... If you brainstormed, that may be enough alone (since you dredged at least 4 times (~20 - 24 cards), but if it's not you can get rid of it with a Therapy (Hardcast or flashback)...

Against Planar void, Ray of Revelation may be ok if you play first, but otherwise that's a Disenchant (2 mana spell), so it is pretty hard to cast it with that mana base. Against Leyline of the Void, Ray is always a Disenchant and that's bad. Chain of Vapor is pretty good against Leyline, since it cost 4 mana to cast it back, which gives you enough times to dredge and make him discard it with Therapy if needed. I think that having 4 Chain of Vapor after side is the way to play against the Void (planar and Leyline)

[wette]

but what about planar void? or layline? Bouncing them is not enough to win the game (they will come into play next turn...) I included ray of revelation to fight them, thoughts?  

Boncing them isn't bad... Bounce it at their end of turn, activate bazaar or discard with Putrid Imp and if able Brainstorm to dredge a lot... If you brainstormed, that may be enough alone (since you dredged at least 4 times (~20 - 24 cards), but if it's not you can get rid of it with a Therapy (Hardcast or flashback)...

Against Planar void, Ray of Revelation may be ok if you play first, but otherwise that's a Disenchant (2 mana spell), so it is pretty hard to cast it with that mana base. Against Leyline of the Void, Ray is always a Disenchant and that's bad. Chain of Vapor is pretty good against Leyline, since it cost 4 mana to cast it back, which gives you enough times to dredge and make him discard it with Therapy if needed. I think that having 4 Chain of Vapor after side is the way to play against the Void (planar and Leyline)

@chiz: against planar void Ray s not a disenchant since planar void triggers and you can play flashback... it is against leyline which may not be so hard to pay 2 mana... but bounce+therapy may be just enough.

[Gabethebabe]

Wette, the man who manages to do all this in a single tourney:

1) Cast turn 1 Therapy, hit three Brainstorms and still lose the game
2) Cast Grave Troll off 5 lands
3) Have an opening hand of Bazaar, Mox, Mox, Chalice, Therapy, Vamp, Petal. Yes, I think he won that game

[Chiz]

but what about planar void? or layline? Bouncing them is not enough to win the game (they will come into play next turn...) I included ray of revelation to fight them, thoughts?  

Boncing them isn't bad... Bounce it at their end of turn, activate bazaar or discard with Putrid Imp and if able Brainstorm to dredge a lot... If you brainstormed, that may be enough alone (since you dredged at least 4 times (~20 - 24 cards), but if it's not you can get rid of it with a Therapy (Hardcast or flashback)...

Against Planar void, Ray of Revelation may be ok if you play first, but otherwise that's a Disenchant (2 mana spell), so it is pretty hard to cast it with that mana base. Against Leyline of the Void, Ray is always a Disenchant and that's bad. Chain of Vapor is pretty good against Leyline, since it cost 4 mana to cast it back, which gives you enough times to dredge and make him discard it with Therapy if needed. I think that having 4 Chain of Vapor after side is the way to play against the Void (planar and Leyline)

@chiz: against planar void Ray s not a disenchant since planar void triggers and you can play flashback... it is against leyline which may not be so hard to pay 2 mana... but bounce+therapy may be just enough.

Sorry, you're right... That's make Ray good against Planar void.
Having 2 mana with that amount of mana may be a problem, especially if they are Wasteland on the other side of the table...

[wette]

Wette, the man who manages to do all this in a single tourney:

1) Cast turn 1 Therapy, hit three Brainstorms and still lose the game
2) Cast Grave Troll off 5 lands
3) Have an opening hand of Bazaar, Mox, Mox, Chalice, Therapy, Vamp, Petal. Yes, I think he won that game

1) I casted therapy hitting 3 brainstorms, chalice for 0 and stripped his first land (the only one he had in opening hand) and loosed don't ask me how...
2) i hardcasted 2 grave trolls 6/6 and 8/8 (in the same match) but just with  4 lands and a mox  , i loosed this match also...
3) this was correct...

 


I just have another question for anyone... It happens here that people use to copy the lists from the last tournament... what would you do if you expect lots of mirrors?

We have been discussing this and we agreed that coffin purge would be the card for the mirror (it's black... flashback sinergy with the rest of the deck etc...), enough? any other thoughs for the mirror match?

[Thug]

We have been discussing this and we agreed that coffin purge would be the card for the mirror (it's black... flashback sinergy with the rest of the deck etc...), enough? any other thoughs for the mirror match?

Leyline seems perfect
The deck mulligans pretty aggresive and often doesn't draw more than 3 cards in a game.

[freakish777]

I'm not sure as to whether or not this was discussed in the article, so my apologies if it was.

Was any consideration given to Entomb over a Golgari Thug?

It seems like Entombing a Grave-Troll is a good first turn play for this deck, and might be better than having 1 of the Golgari Thugs.  Seeing as how you're only going to see your first 9 cards or so as you should be dredging aggressively, would you rather see 1 Entomb or 1 Golgari Thug in your opening 7?  Perhaps I'm think of this in the wrong slot and it should really replace a Putrid Imp in order to have it work the same role in the deck.

[forests failed you]

Black Leyline seems fine.  It also seems like winning the die roll would be extremely relevent, since you get to Duress / Therepy first... And in a race you get the first attack.

[Gabethebabe]

Would Enlightened Tutor be a good addition to the SB? With all the artifacts you run in the SB it might be a good idea to allow for more consistent turn two Chalice(=1 or =0) /Rod/Needle/etc.